How to lie?

[Valley Oak]

I've had this question for a long, long time: How do you tell a good quality lie?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about good justifications for lies or "white lies," I'm talking about how to tell a lie so well that anyone will believe it, no matter how smart, well educated, experienced, or how many people they might be. The lie could be a heinous act of deceit but this is not the point. I'm talking about skill and quality here.

Is the tactic of telling a lie as close to the truth as possible a good technique, for example?

Has anyone here had such an awesome experience lying in a specific situation that it is worth telling, a lie where they pulled one off big time? I have a story to tell but I'm going to wait a little to tell it (not a lie).

Let's learn the skill that politicians wield so well (and then maybe it won't be so easy to be duped by them).

Edward

[AnnaLisaW]

The answer is really very simple. Tell people what they want to believe and they will believe it. Truth has nothing to do with it. Now you have to ask yourself, "What am I willing to believe?" If you answer "Only the truth," you are lying to yourself.
-AnnaLisa

[netpenn]

Don't look up to the left, most people that lie do that, don't sueeze your lips together.


I've had this question for a long, long time: How do you tell a good quality lie?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about good justifications for lies or "white lies," I'm talking about how to tell a lie so well that anyone will believe it, no matter how smart, well educated, experienced, or how many people they might be. The lie could be a heinous act of deceit but this is not the point. I'm talking about skill and quality here.

Is the tactic of telling a lie as close to the truth as possible a good technique, for example?

Has anyone here had such an awesome experience lying in a specific situation that it is worth telling, a lie where they pulled one off big time? I have a story to tell but I'm going to wait a little to tell it (not a lie).

Let's learn the skill that politicians wield so well (and then maybe it won't be so easy to be duped by them).

Edward

[Lenny]

One of the big problems I have is How Do I Tell The Truth?
And do it "in love".
Gadz.
Heard once: bank tellers are taught to detect counterfeit money by being given a real dollar bill and told to hold onto it and feel it while the history of money and how it is made was told to them. Took several hours, after which they were told to examine the dollar in their hand and given a "sensory guide" to how it feels.
When blindfolded and handed a phony bill there detection of it was excellent.:2cents:

[MsTerry]

The best lie is the truth!
when you tell the truth, you'll find out that people don't believe you


I've had this question for a long, long time: How do you tell a good quality lie?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about good justifications for lies or "white lies," I'm talking about how to tell a lie so well that anyone will believe it, no matter how smart, well educated, experienced, or how many people they might be. The lie could be a heinous act of deceit but this is not the point. I'm talking about skill and quality here.

Is the tactic of telling a lie as close to the truth as possible a good technique, for example?

Has anyone here had such an awesome experience lying in a specific situation that it is worth telling, a lie where they pulled one off big time? I have a story to tell but I'm going to wait a little to tell it (not a lie).

Let's learn the skill that politicians wield so well (and then maybe it won't be so easy to be duped by them).

Edward

[nurturetruth]

:lol:

bigsmile

:thumbsup: MsTerry !

Helps me to remember a quote

"Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction, after all, at least has to make sense"

Why do people WANT to lie?

Why are people so uncomfortable with the truth? (hearing & telling)

What does one gain by lying?

:hmmm:<table nowrap="" _base_target="_top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" height="15" width="100%"><tbody _base_target="_top"><tr _base_target="_top"><td _base_target="_top" align="left" height="430" valign="top" width="92%"><tt>

</tt></td></tr></tbody></table>

[Lenny]

I often hear laughter when the truth is spoken. Funny thing.
As for why folks lie? Same ol', same ol': pride, fear, self aggrandizement, gain of power, money, sex. Something new under the sun?


:lol:

bigsmile

:thumbsup: MsTerry !

Helps me to remember a quote

"Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction, after all, at least has to make sense"

Why do people WANT to lie?

Why are people so uncomfortable with the truth? (hearing & telling)

What does one gain by lying?

:hmmm:<table nowrap="" _base_target="_top" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" height="15" width="100%"><tbody _base_target="_top"><tr _base_target="_top"><td _base_target="_top" align="left" height="430" valign="top" width="92%"><tt>

</tt></td></tr></tbody></table>

[Dynamique]

NPR had a program on this subject last week, specifically the bizarre benefits of being able to lie to oneself, but I could not find it on their story list! Dang. However, my search did turn up this gem:

Truth, the Whole Truth, Nothing but the Truth
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18706607

In my observation, the ability to be able to tell a good (i.e. effective) lie begins with convincing one's self that the lie is real, sort of re-writing the story in their mind. Some folks can do such a good job of this that they can pass lie detector tests.

Good question and discussion thread!


:lol:

bigsmile

:thumbsup: MsTerry !

Helps me to remember a quote

"Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction, after all, at least has to make sense"

Why do people WANT to lie?

Why are people so uncomfortable with the truth? (hearing & telling)

What does one gain by lying?

[Zeno Swijtink]

It's on KQED tomorrow:

Wed, Feb 13, 2008 -- 8:00 PM
Radio Lab: Deception -- Why do some people lie more than others? Maybe it's not moral weakness so much as anatomical strength. The program talks with one researcher who has peered into the brains of pathological liars and found that certain parts of their brains are much bigger than those of truth-tellers. The show also discovers the joy of lying to oneself, and examines new efforts to teach airport security officers how to spot liars using very old equipment: their eyes.



NPR had a program on this subject last week, specifically the bizarre benefits of being able to lie to oneself, but I could not find it on their story list! Dang. However, my search did turn up this gem:

Truth, the Whole Truth, Nothing but the Truth
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18706607

In my observation, the ability to be able to tell a good (i.e. effective) lie begins with convincing one's self that the lie is real, sort of re-writing the story in their mind. Some folks can do such a good job of this that they can pass lie detector tests.

Good question and discussion thread!

[shellebelle]

Here's to lying, stealing, and cheating!
May you lie to save a friend;
May you steal the heart of the one you love;
and may you cheat death.

[Frederick M. Dolan]

A clue may be found in Theodor Adorno's line: "A German is someone who cannot tell a lie without believing it himself."


I've had this question for a long, long time: How do you tell a good quality lie?



Edward

[hales]

Zeno posted:

"Wed, Feb 13, 2008 -- 8:00 PM
Radio Lab: Deception -- Why do some people lie more than others? Maybe it's not moral weakness so much as anatomical strength. The program talks with one researcher who has peered into the brains of pathological liars and found that certain parts of their brains are much bigger than those of truth-tellers. The show also discovers the joy of lying to oneself, and examines new efforts to teach airport security officers how to spot liars using very old equipment: their eyes."

I heard that program.. very interesting. It tracked an individual chronic liar who fooled many, many people into trusting her, liking her, cashing her forged checks, allowing her to live with them, etc., until she took off with credit info, social security numbers, etc. She eventually was given 2 years in a Louisiana prison, but was temporarilly released, because of overcrowding, due to hurricane Katrina, then disappeared.. what a saga!

The study referred to above, found, using brain scans, that the frontal cortex of a chronic liar has many more cells of white matter, or neural connections, which in effect increases the processing speed of the associative "story-telling" part of the brain. They had expected to find a part missing, but instead found an increased ability to do what I call "making sh## up". It's much more easy for them to fabricate a convincing string of randomly chosen ideas or story elements into a believable story. When someone asks me to make up a story, I pretty much "choke", feeling nervous about the pressure of expectation. I really wonder if there is a difference in brain structure to that of a really good non-pathological-liar, or more constructive and ethical story teller. (Like Aesop, for instance). I imagine a really good liar is like a good improvisational musician; maybe there is an addictive quality to it, like loving to improvise on jazz guitar, or something. I think a case might be made that what determines a "good lie" is to be able to be congruent and credible in all aspects of the story-telling, including body language, facial expression, tone of voice, syntax, etc., not just the details and "facts" of the story. Of course a good lie can also just be to consciously or unconsciously omit the truth.. ; )

Scott.

[Valley Oak]

Excellent analytical post.

Thank you,

Edward


Zeno posted:

"Wed, Feb 13, 2008 -- 8:00 PM
Radio Lab: Deception -- Why do some people lie more than others? Maybe it's not moral weakness so much as anatomical strength. The program talks with one researcher who has peered into the brains of pathological liars and found that certain parts of their brains are much bigger than those of truth-tellers. The show also discovers the joy of lying to oneself, and examines new efforts to teach airport security officers how to spot liars using very old equipment: their eyes."

I heard that program.. very interesting. It tracked an individual chronic liar who fooled many, many people into trusting her, liking her, cashing her forged checks, allowing her to live with them, etc., until she took off with credit info, social security numbers, etc. She eventually was given 2 years in a Louisiana prison, but was temporarilly released, because of overcrowding, due to hurricane Katrina, then disappeared.. what a saga!

The study referred to above, found, using brain scans, that the frontal cortex of a chronic liar has many more cells of white matter, or neural connections, which in effect increases the processing speed of the associative "story-telling" part of the brain. They had expected to find a part missing, but instead found an increased ability to do what I call "making sh## up". It's much more easy for them to fabricate a convincing string of randomly chosen ideas or story elements into a believable story. When someone asks me to make up a story, I pretty much "choke", feeling nervous about the pressure of expectation. I really wonder if there is a difference in brain structure to that of a really good non-pathological-liar, or more constructive and ethical story teller. (Like Aesop, for instance). I imagine a really good liar is like a good improvisational musician; maybe there is an addictive quality to it, like loving to improvise on jazz guitar, or something. I think a case might be made that what determines a "good lie" is to be able to be congruent and credible in all aspects of the story-telling, including body language, facial expression, tone of voice, syntax, etc., not just the details and "facts" of the story. Of course a good lie can also just be to consciously or unconsciously omit the truth.. ; )

Scott.

[Punkasaurus Rex]

Interesting and important topic, indeed...but I take issue with the idea of how one lies convincingly, or what behavior or discipline a good liar requires. Nothing personal, but such a notion is multi-oxymoronified!

Your synergy between addiction and lying is well founded. But most of us are "bad" liars. Liars are forever caught up in a maze of trying to remember all the lies and the lies they were probably built on and the inevitable implosion like a pyramid scheme gone bad that always follows. How about starting a liar management group? It only has 2 steps: The Truth or Not The Truth.

ps: I almost forgot~~~

Your imagery regarding music is, frankly, full of crap. The improvisational magic one can make, is merely a stepping stone to a more final idea. As a writer and player, I am most inspired by my environment, and originality is based in truth, not how well you can "cover" a song. Think of your favorite tune and ask yourself whether the beauty that lies therein is, as Howlin' Wolf says, "Music (that) is True and Real and Raw, jus' like Life and Love".

[hales]

Punkasarus, I sent another post, I'm not sure it went through..

First of all, it seems a nerve was hit.. no need to get testy, PR.. I was joining the conversation, not attacking you, or your point of view..

Maybe it wasn't clear that I was not espousing lies, lying or liars. I don't lie, as a rule, but I do sometimes take a bit of a "devils advocate" position in a hypothetical discussion. (I'm not going to say I NEVER lied, that would be an, uh, exaggeration .. ; )

As far as improvisation, vs a final product, I don't think I said anything that invalidated a final product. Personally, I love the feeling of a free-form improvisation, and I feel blessed to experience it.

There must be a spectrum of truthfulness, though, don't you think? If you write a song about a fictional situation, that tells an emotional truth, you're still fabricating a story. Perhaps it's the intent and, like I said, the congruence of the story that distinguishes it from a lie.

Back to the devil's advocate position, don't we tell ourselves and others, little lies every day, just to maintain our sanity? I call those "buffers". If one projects all the lying onto others, one is just fooling oneself.

Scott

[Punkasaurus Rex]

Punkasarus, I sent another post, I'm not sure it went through..

First of all, it seems a nerve was hit.. no need to get testy, PR.. I was joining the conversation, not attacking you, or your point of view..

Maybe it wasn't clear that I was not espousing lies, lying or liars. I don't lie, as a rule, but I do sometimes take a bit of a "devils advocate" position in a hypothetical discussion. (I'm not going to say I NEVER lied, that would be an, uh, exaggeration .. ; )

As far as improvisation, vs a final product, I don't think I said anything that invalidated a final product. Personally, I love the feeling of a free-form improvisation, and I feel blessed to experience it.

There must be a spectrum of truthfulness, though, don't you think? If you write a song about a fictional situation, that tells an emotional truth, you're still fabricating a story. Perhaps it's the intent and, like I said, the congruence of the story that distinguishes it from a lie.

Back to the devil's advocate position, don't we tell ourselves and others, little lies every day, just to maintain our sanity? I call those "buffers". If one projects all the lying onto others, one is just fooling oneself.

Scott


Scott:
>
>Please see my reply to your earlier post... I don't think that showed up
>either. Regardless, here's my original reply:
>
>"Scott:
>
>Meant no hostility, and am sorry if it came out that
>way. I believe in open discussion, and find room for
>anyone's point of view. Nor did I impart that you
>were "pro-liar" or that you thought lying was an
>ok thing to do. Quite the opposite. I applaud you for
>putting the study results so concisely and making them
>understandable and available for our consumption.
>I have rarely posted anything, but I
>did appreciate both the topic and your response.
>
>Maybe I'm more of a non-fiction kind of guy.
>
>Thank you for your comments~~they made me
> think even more!
>
>That's the beauty of Free Speech.
>And There You Have It~~"
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/images/NewSmilies/yinyang_ani.gif
>
>I can only add that I tell the truth everyday to maintain my
>INTEGRITY~~I'm already insane!

[Lorrie]

congruence

<FORM name=entry action=/dictionary method=post></FORM>
<DL><DT class=hwrd>Main Entry: <DD class=hwrd>con·gru·ence </DD><DT class=pron>Pronunciation: <DD class=pron>\kən-grü-ən(t)s, käŋ-grü-ən(t)s\ </DD><DT class=func>Function: <DD class=func>noun </DD><DT class=date>Date: <DD class=date>15th century </DD></DL>1 : the quality or state of agreeing, coinciding, or being congruent (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/congruent) 2 : a statement that two numbers or geometric figures are congruent (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/congruent)


Encyclopedia (On line)

As an abstract term, congruence means similarity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarity) between objects. Congruence, as opposed to equivalence or approximation, is a relation which implies a kind of equivalence, though not complete equivalence.

In psychology and NLP, congruence could be defined as rapport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapport) within oneself, or internal and external consistency, perceived by others as sincerity or certainty.
An alternative definition of congruence in the work of Virginia Satir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Satir), one of the sources of NLP, is the balance between self, other and context.
In cladistics, congruence is a test of homology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_%28biology%29), or shared, derived character states, in which the distributions of supposed homologies among taxa are compared for consistency.
horizontal and vertical congruence (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horizontal_and_vertical_congruence&action=edit), two related principles of grouping
In geometry, triangles and other figures are congruent if they are isometric – roughly, if they are of the same size and shape. See Congruence (geometry) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congruence_%28geometry%29).
In mathematics and especially in abstract algebra as well as modular arithmetic, a congruence relation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congruence_relation) or simply congruence is an equivalence relation that is compatible with some algebraic operation(s).

[MsTerry]

I have a story to tell but I'm going to wait a little to tell it (not a lie).
Edward

How long are you going to hold us in suspense?
I got you a date with Mykil, just to warm you up.