"On Wednesday morning I marked my ballot for John Edwards and mailed it. About an hour later I learned that he had dropped out of the race. Suppose I had been able to rank the candidates instead of choosing only one?"
And then a mutual friend of ours concurred:
"I had the exact same experience."
This did not happen to me but I can imagine the feeling was not a positive one. Furthermore, it brings into question how guaranteed our participation is in electing our leaders.
If anything should be done, what could be changed in this scenario so that it does not repeat itself in future elections?
Edward
MsTerry
02-01-2008, 09:19 PM
If they voted on Wednesday, they knew there vote was a lost cause.
Does it really make a difference?
I am more troubled about the kind of money candidates can raise.
What would you for the country if you had those funds available?
A friend of mine sent me this email:
"On Wednesday morning I marked my ballot for John Edwards and mailed it. About an hour later I learned that he had dropped out of the race. Suppose I had been able to rank the candidates instead of choosing only one?"And then a mutual friend of ours concurred:
"I had the exact same experience."This did not happen to me but I can imagine the feeling was not a positive one. Furthermore, it brings into question how guaranteed our participation is in electing our leaders.
If anything should be done, what could be changed in this scenario so that it does not repeat itself in future elections?
Edward
Valley Oak
02-01-2008, 10:24 PM
If they voted on Wednesday, they knew there vote was a lost cause.
Does it really make a difference?
No, they found out AFTER they mailed in their absentee ballots.
Regarding making a difference, well, I believe that it's the principal that counts here, although I usually shy away from this kind of argument because it is often self-righteous, very costly, and unjustifiable. The reason why I feel it is important for all Americans to be able to vote more easily is because of: what's at stake, the present state of voting in America (exclusion of minority voters in highly contested districts, first-past-the-post, etc), and far too many people don't get to exercise their right to vote for the wrong reasons (Florida, Ohio, hanging chads, registration requirements, losing the right to vote, etc). And this DOES make the difference in presidential elections and our country's going to war, its economy, and the general welfare. So, a lot of different reforms are needed to address these unacceptable holes in our democratic and voting process.
I am more troubled about the kind of money candidates can raise.
What would you for the country if you had those funds available?
I would like to see political parties in the U.S. restructured to be like the ones in Europe. Over there, citizens vote for the party, not the person.
Because of the way we run presidential elections in this country, we get actors for presidents and governors (because of the public's established awareness of the artist's name, face, and history, and popularity in that profession), we get nepotism or 'dynasties' at the highest level of national government, and we get a system with an imperative for big money influencing and corrupting candidates and ultimately public policy.
European parties elect their own president or leader and then the public votes for the party, not individuals. But this would be such a radical departure from the American way that almost no one here will support such a change. We are doomed, in a sense, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep money out of a U.S. Presidential campaign. Most people don't realize this. Furthermore, the two parties in our two party system have consistently failed to pass effective legislation that successfully curbs campaign finance and other corruptive monies.
If you gloss over the Progressive Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_movement, which was a truly great movement, overall), you will see how the Progressives, with good intentions, totally messed up on some of their reforms, the money issue is one of their most embarrassing failures. And the 'openness' of having the electorate directly electing a political party leader is another colossal failure (with such consequences as a rich and influential daddy's incompetent son becoming president, and so on). This Wikipedia entry will explain a lot, including shedding light on why things are the way they are now as well as other related issues.
Edward
MsTerry
02-02-2008, 09:30 AM
Edward
if they voted on Wednesday they knew Edwards wasn't going to win.
the problem in the USA is that not everybody is represented.
We don't have a true democracy where every vote counts
No, they found out AFTER they mailed in their absentee ballots.
Regarding making a difference, well, I believe that it's the principal that counts here, although I usually shy away from this kind of argument because it is often self-righteous, very costly, and unjustifiable. The reason why I feel it is important for all Americans to be able to vote more easily is because of: what's at stake, the present state of voting in America (exclusion of minority voters in highly contested districts, first-past-the-post, etc), and far too many people don't get to exercise their right to vote for the wrong reasons (Florida, Ohio, hanging chads, registration requirements, losing the right to vote, etc). And this DOES make the difference in presidential elections and our country's going to war, its economy, and the general welfare. So, a lot of different reforms are needed to address these unacceptable holes in our democratic and voting process.
I would like to see political parties in the U.S. restructured to be like the ones in Europe. Over there, citizens vote for the party, not the person.
Because of the way we run presidential elections in this country, we get actors for presidents and governors (because of the public's established awareness of the artist's name, face, and history, and popularity in that profession), we get nepotism or 'dynasties' at the highest level of national government, and we get a system with an imperative for big money influencing and corrupting candidates and ultimately public policy.
European parties elect their own president or leader and then the public votes for the party, not individuals. But this would be such a radical departure from the American way that almost no one here will support such a change. We are doomed, in a sense, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep money out of a U.S. Presidential campaign. Most people don't realize this. Furthermore, the two parties in our two party system have consistently failed to pass effective legislation that successfully curbs campaign finance and other corruptive monies.
If you gloss over the Progressive Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_movement, which was a truly great movement, overall), you will see how the Progressives, with good intentions, totally messed up on some of their reforms, the money issue is one of their most embarrassing failures. And the 'openness' of having the electorate directly electing a political party leader is another colossal failure (with such consequences as a rich and influential daddy's incompetent son becoming president, and so on). This Wikipedia entry will explain a lot, including shedding light on why things are the way they are now as well as other related issues.
Edward
"Mad" Miles
02-02-2008, 10:28 AM
Edward,
Why were you voting absentee? Why not just wait for the day of the primary and vote at the polls? By then everything will have shaken out, other than the results. Plus your vote will be counted "faster" than with a mail-in ballot.
Unless one is crippled or otherwise unable to travel, I don't see the reason for mail-ins. (And yes, I know about closed polling places due to cost cutting by the Registrar of Voters. I don't support that and if people insisted, that could be reversed.)
One adavantage of going to vote, on election day, at a public polling place, is that you get to see a few of your neighbors. When and where else do we get such an opportunity these days? Living in our bubbles, cut off from each other, except in mediated cases like this online community. And we can see how much honesty, kindness and sincerity this engenders!?
As for election process reforms (IRV, Ranked Choice, Parliamentary Representation, Campaign Finance Reform, etc.) as long as the current system guarantees the lock on power that the Republicans and Democrats hold, what incentive is there for them to change it?
And since they're the ones holding office (with a very few exceptions) who, besides them, is in a position to make those changes?
Someone show me a way out of this Catch-22 and I would be ever grateful.
And yes, organize, organize, organize is the only solution, but I've been at that for a good part of the last thirty-three years, it's not working!
So far...
"Mad" Miles, Activist
:burngrnbounce:
Valley Oak
02-02-2008, 11:43 AM
On your first point, I am not Tom or the mutual friend, so I cannot speak for them. I simply relayed their stories, which I quoted (copy/pasted) directly from their emails to me. Aside from that, it's a moot point.
On your second point, you are absolutely correct, not everybody is represented (not by a long shot). And that is a VERY astute observation, which will resurface again and again in the future until we modify our political process to be much more inclusive of voters (or nonvoters).
On your third point, you are absolutely correct, yet again! We indeed do NOT have a true democracy where every vote counts and you are in very good company (multitudes, actually) when you state this fact.
Therefore, I formally invite you to meet with other folks who feel the same as you do:
www.cfer.org
Californians for Electoral Reform is a 501c3 nonprofit that has SUCCESSFULLY introduced legislation in San Francisco, to use Instant Run-off Voting (IRV, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_run-off_voting) in local elections. Incumbent Mayor Gavin Newsom was recently reelected in San Francisco through IRV!
We (CfER) have also introduced legislation in Oakland, Berkeley, San Diego, Davis, Alameda and Contra Costa Counties, and other locations that have reformed electoral laws to be more democratic and inclusive of voters. These milestones in expanding democracy takes power away from institutions, the rich, the reactionaries, the religious fanatics, the anti-choice mob, and other despicable elements in society.
It's important to notice that we have had success almost exclusively in the most progressive/liberal areas in the nation. But with YOUR help, we can spread electoral reform to Sonoma County and its cities!
Come and join the party of change (pun intended). Join today!
Edward
Edward
if they voted on Wednesday they knew Edwards wasn't going to win.
the problem in the USA is that not everybody is represented.
We don't have a true democracy where every vote counts
Valley Oak
02-02-2008, 11:57 AM
The Registrar of Voters (in its infinite wisdom) closed my local polling place for just that very reason you mentioned. I believe they said that there weren't enough people around to do the jobs of being there, setting up the booths, taking peoples' IDs, counting the votes, etc, etc (which I have done more than once in the past). So lack of staff is the official reason given but I don't think it's the only one.
I was not aware that I could reverse the process. However, I don't believe this to be a vital issue because people should be able to vote absentee if they wish. I think it should be a choice, plain and simple. And I would rather see reforms rather than a forceful going back to the polls in person with the notion that it is not legitimate otherwise.
Regarding your criticisms of the two major political parties, the current political process, and electoral laws, I agree with you 100%!
I insist that the way out of this catch 22 is to join Californians for Electoral Reform (www.cfer.org (https://www.cfer.org)). In a previous email I just sent to Mystery, I explained in greater detail how successful we have been in several municipalities, including San Francisco, Berkeley, and Oakland.
Miles, why don't you join CfER here in Sonoma County and we can reform the electoral laws here to start making an enormous difference in our democracy?
Join the party!
Edward
Edward,
Why were you voting absentee? Why not just wait for the day of the primary and vote at the polls? By then everything will have shaken out, other than the results. Plus your vote will be counted "faster" than with a mail-in ballot.
Unless one is crippled or otherwise unable to travel, I don't see the reason for mail-ins. (And yes, I know about closed polling places due to cost cutting by the Registrar of Voters. I don't support that and if people insisted, that could be reversed.)
One advantage of going to vote, on election day, at a public polling place, is that you get to see a few of your neighbors. When and where else do we get such an opportunity these days? Living in our bubbles, cut off from each other, except in mediated cases like this online community. And we can see how much honesty, kindness and sincerity this engenders!?
As for election process reforms (IRV, Ranked Choice, Parliamentary Representation, Campaign Finance Reform, etc.) as long as the current system guarantees the lock on power that the Republicans and Democrats hold, what incentive is there for them to change it?
And since they're the ones holding office (with a very few exceptions) who, besides them, is in a position to make those changes?
Someone show me a way out of this Catch-22 and I would be ever grateful.
And yes, organize, organize, organize is the only solution, but I've been at that for a good part of the last thirty-three years, it's not working!
So far...
"Mad" Miles, Activist
:burngrnbounce:
"Mad" Miles
02-02-2008, 01:16 PM
Edward,
I have already "joined the party", the Green Party, which actively organizes for voting process reform. But due to the constraints of my schedule I haven't been attending meetings (of any organization), or actively organizing (for any cause), since 2003. Just don't have the time and energy.
I also put in extensive time and energy from 1998 through 2003 as an activist in this county. I'm not saying I won't get back to it, but just not now. There are many projects currently in place that I would put my time into, if I had any. CopWatch, Free Mind Media, Town Hall Coalition, GPSC, Living Wage, etc. But I do my politics through my work now (and my email forwarding to my and others lists), a dream of some thirty years finally accomplished. Being paid to do what I think is right, that is.
I've said it over and over, I'll say it again. Without a movement of tightly organized, experienced, well-trained, and in it for the long haul non-violent direct action affinity groups, numbering in the hundreds of thousands, which are actively opposing the excresences of our system and are calling for real solutions to the systemic sources of our problems, well, not much will change (at least not for the better) and things will continue in this vein of entropic devolvement towards oblivion.
There's a nice, and brief, discussion of the economics behind this on the Bay Area IWW listserve over the last few days. If anyone is interested, contact me privately and I'll dig it up for you.
Cheers All,
"Mad" Miles
:burngrnbounce:
Valley Oak
02-02-2008, 01:58 PM
I too used to go to the meetings of the Green Party of Sonoma County in downtown Santa Rosa. I remember Bill Patterson well, before he passed away. I used to be registered Green and I will probably register Green again.
In the bylaws of the GPSC, it is clearly stated that internal party elections choose their various leaders through elimination rounds, or what is in effect, Instant Run-off Voting. The main reason I got involved with the local Green Party was precisely because they so staunchly support electoral reform; it is a 'no-brainer' issue for the Greens to support. Every time CfER people such as myself or from neighboring Marin County or other folks approached the local Greens on electoral reform, proportional representation, or IRV, the response was always an enthusiastic 'Yes!'
I do not consider myself a Democrat but I do believe in 'lesser evil voting.' On the other hand, although I'm getting off the subject a bit here, I intensely resent the attitude on the part of millions of Democrats who were vindictive of Greens, blaming the Greens for Bush's victory. It's those pesky Greens' fault. Bullshit! It's the two party system's fault and the Democrats are one of those two monolithic parties.
I appreciate your activism very much and I give you my heartfelt thanks for your contribution. Each of us fights in a different way to make this a better world. Mine is electoral reform because in achieving it, we also achieve a floodgate of social change. It's like New Deal #2 through fundamental institutional change in the way we elect our public leaders, organize our political parties, count people's votes, etc. It is much more economical to invest 20 hours of my volunteer time to changing the system than to invest it in the Laguna or one of thousands of major issues. By radically reforming our electoral laws, we can get ALL of our issues in a fowl swoop.
That's my reasoning and I hope to see you someday campaigning for electoral reform so that we can bring tomorrow a lot closer to home.
Edward
Edward,
I have already "joined the party", the Green Party, which actively organizes for voting process reform. But due to the constraints of my schedule I haven't been attending meetings (of any organization), or actively organizing (for any cause), since 2003. Just don't have the time and energy.
I also put in extensive time and energy from 1998 through 2003 as an activist in this county. I'm not saying I won't get back to it, but just not now. There are many projects currently in place that I would put my time into, if I had any. CopWatch, Free Mind Media, Town Hall Coalition, GPSC, Living Wage, etc. But I do my politics through my work now (and my email forwarding to my and others lists), a dream of some thirty years finally accomplished. Being paid to do what I think is right, that is.
I've said it over and over, I'll say it again. Without a movement of tightly organized, experienced, well-trained, and in it for the long haul non-violent direct action affinity groups, numbering in the hundreds of thousands, which are actively opposing the excresences of our system and are calling for real solutions to the systemic sources of our problems, well, not much will change (at least not for the better) and things will continue in this vein of entropic devolvement towards oblivion.
There's a nice, and brief, discussion of the economics behind this on the Bay Area IWW listserve over the last few days. If anyone is interested, contact me privately and I'll dig it up for you.