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mykil
01-28-2008, 01:02 PM
What would happen if I mentioned to a sociopath
that they were a sociopath? How do you think they would respond, and do you think denial would play a strong kind of role. Anyone? I have known this person for twenty-five years and he really has no clue. If I enlighten him to the fact is change possible?

shellebelle
01-28-2008, 01:21 PM
For some yes, my brother changed!


What would happen if I mentioned to a sociopath
that they were a sociopath? How do you think they would respond, and do you think denial would play a strong kind of role. Anyone? I have known this person for twenty-five years and he really has no clue. If I enlighten him to the fact is change possible?

MsTerry
01-28-2008, 03:39 PM
Sometimes people are ready to hear what they already know.
The real question is; How?


What would happen if I mentioned to a sociopath
that they were a sociopath? How do you think they would respond, and do you think denial would play a strong kind of role. Anyone? I have known this person for twenty-five years and he really has no clue. If I enlighten him to the fact is change possible?

Hummingbear
01-28-2008, 04:18 PM
What would happen if I mentioned to a sociopath
that they were a sociopath? How do you think they would respond, and do you think denial would play a strong kind of role. Anyone? I have known this person for twenty-five years and he really has no clue. If I enlighten him to the fact is change possible?

Doing a bit of research, I find that there is some ambiguity in the term
"sociopath (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath)."

But these are fine distinctions; there is general agreement on the kind of behavior that can be called sociopathic.

To answer your question, No. From everything I've studied, psychopaths never change. Well, maybe if struck by lightning, or the equivalent, but not from any rational discussion or ordinary punishment.

If this person is truly sociopathic, you can gain nothing from telling them so.
A true sociopath doesn't care what anyone thinks of him (or her), and has no interest in changing. If they have a responsible role in society, like, say, Vice President of the United States, they will deny, and try to belittle you. If they are common thugs, they will react, well, thuggishly, would be my prediction.

Conversely, if you suggest to someone that their behavior is sociopathic and they seem to want to change, then either (1) they aren't truly sociopathic, or (2) they see an advantage to convincing you that they aren't-- in which case, you must be especially careful!

Usually the best thing to do is just avoid these beings entirely. If that's not possible, well, good luck.

Finally, as in any case of interpersonal issues, it's not useful to try to persuade someone by labeling them. I recommend Non-Violent Communication (https://www.cnvc.org/) instead.

--Hummingbear

shellebelle
01-28-2008, 04:20 PM
Wait psychopath and sociopath are two different things!




To answer your question, No. From everything I've studied, psychopaths never change. Well, maybe if struck by lightning, or the equivalent, but not from any rational discussion or ordinary punishment.

--Hummingbear

Zeno Swijtink
01-28-2008, 04:40 PM
Doing a bit of research, I find that there is some ambiguity in the term
"sociopath (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath)."

But these are fine distinctions; there is general agreement on the kind of behavior that can be called sociopathic.

To answer your question, No. From everything I've studied, psychopaths never change. Well, maybe if struck by lightning, or the equivalent, but not from any rational discussion or ordinary punishment.

I wonder what would happen if you invited all and only your sociopath "friends" for a party and closed the door behind them.

Or if you wrote a play for an all sociopath cast if which the main character, a sociopath, is slowly cured by an understanding and compassionate set of supporting roles.

Hummingbear
01-28-2008, 08:38 PM
Wait psychopath and sociopath are two different things!

If you have a clear distinction in mind, please elaborate. Or, check out the reference link on my post; it says that they are not distinguishable--although there is, as I said, some ambiguity.

Hb

shellebelle
01-28-2008, 09:11 PM
It appears to me that like ADD and ADHD it has become a blanket term that is in essence has become ambiguous for very wrong reasons.

Having been raised in a home with a borderline personality disorder and a sociopath I see a vast difference in the two and could easily see the borderline personality being a psychopath or the sociopath being a psychopath but also realize they are not interchangeable.

I also realize that with good counseling, typically including some early childhood trauma/imprint help a sociopath can be helped.

I agree both are personality disorders but to lump them into a ball is not accurate and just a short cut for ease of labeling.

https://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/psychopath-vs-sociopath.html
Sunday, June 24, 2007

Psychopath vs. Sociopath (https://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/psychopath-vs-sociopath.html)

https://bp3.blogger.com/_xhcWzF0i93k/Rn7MsjtRLuI/AAAAAAAAAcU/mKd3w0kE_zc/s200/Ramsland+Gangsters.jpg (https://bp3.blogger.com/_xhcWzF0i93k/Rn7MsjtRLuI/AAAAAAAAAcU/mKd3w0kE_zc/s1600-h/Ramsland+Gangsters.jpg)I’m often asked about the difference between a psychopath and sociopath, and it’s difficult to respond because the answer is complex. Many people mistakenly believe the two terms are interchangeable, which is no surprise since both politics and religion have influenced the long evolution of the concept of psychopathy. Thus, I’m using my first blog to discuss why we haven’t settled on a single name for a certain type of personality disorder that most TC writers eventually encounter.

While psychopathy was the first personality disorder that psychiatry formally recognized, it wasn't easy to crystallize a workable concept for analysis. Pinel, a French psychiatrist, used a phrase during the early 1800s that translated as “mania without madness.” He described impulsive people whose actions had negative consequences for themselves and others, yet they were fully aware of what they were doing. It was a mystery.

In America, Benjamin Rush designated the same behavior as "moral derangement" and observed that such people developed socially disruptive behavior early in life. In his opinion, they were more bad than ill. An English physician, calling it "moral insanity," viewed psychopathy as an emotional disorder.

The term, psychopath, first showed up in Germany, during the latter part of the 19th century, but it included biological disorders, and by the early part of the twentieth century, “constitutional psychopathic inferiority” had become a catchall term for most mental and physical defects. Then brain damage and physiological conditions were placed in a different medical category.

The next step was to remove ‘constitutional’ from the classification, leaving the unworkably broad ‘psychopathic personality’ with no diagnostic criteria: it was for those people who were not psychotic or neurotic but who caused distress in the community.

More psychiatrists worked out ways to refine the concept, but it wasn’t until 1941 that the notion of a psychopath was ably crystallized. Hervey Cleckley published The Mask of Sanity, in which he offered 16 criteria for diagnosis, including hot-headed, manipulative, irresponsible, self-centered, shallow, lacking in empathy or anxiety, and likely to commit more types of crimes than other offenders. They are also more violent, more likely to recidivate, and less likely to respond to treatment.

Now, what about the sociopath? As the concept of psychopathy continued to evolve, in psychiatric circles, diagnosis replaced a combination of traits and behaviors with just behaviors. To reflect this different emphasis, some older concepts were renamed. In 1952, in the psychiatric nomenclature, the word ‘psychopath’ was officially replaced with ‘sociopathic personality,’ and both terms were often used interchangeably under the heading of ‘personality disorder.’ Then with the second edition of The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-II) in 1968, ‘sociopathic personality’ yielded to ‘personality disorder, antisocial type.’

Twelve years later, the DSM-III introduced a list of explicit criteria for people we'd long viewed as psychopaths, but calling it "Antisocial Personality Disorder" (ASPD). The criteria emphasized the violation of social norms rather than personality traits, and many researchers were dissatisfied with this approach because it had no diagnostic utility.

During the seventies, some researchers ignored the DSMDSM, as if ASPD meant the same thing. But it didn’t.

ASPD is a broader category, inclusive of people who would not qualify on the PCL-R as psychopaths, and while some psychopaths might also be diagnosable as ASPD, it would not apply to all people diagnosable as psychopaths. Thus, the terms refer to overlapping but nevertheless different categories of people. (Try saying all of that five times, fast.)

Researchers who used the traditional concept viewed psychopathy as a disorder characterized by such traits as lack of remorse or empathy, shallow emotions, manipulativeness, lying, egocentricity, glibness, low frustration tolerance, episodic relationships, parasitic lifestyle, and the persistent violation of social norms. According to Robert Hare, “Psychopathy is one of the best validated constructs in the realm of psychopathology."

Without getting into the politics surrounding the different diagnostic systems, people who were unaware of the need for precision and accuracy for research and assessment adopted a preference for using either ‘psychopath’ or ‘sociopath’ and came up with their own workable definitions. In other words, things got a little sloppy. I’ve even seen professionals use the term 'sociopath' but rely on the criteria specific to the concept of a psychopath. However, for researchers in psychopathy, ‘sociopath’ has a different connotation.

Which brings me back to the original question: the difference between a psychopath and sociopath. If you subscribe to the Hare criteria for a psychopath, then you see the conning, manipulative narcissistic liar and user as a psychopath, as long as he or she is completely lacking in remorse or empathy. The sociopath, however, is capable of guilt, caring, building relationships, etc., but only within a certain context. He or she will have loyalties to a specific group but not to society at large. They care nothing for social norms and will break them with impunity if it serves their purpose. So, on the surface, they may resemble psychopaths. However, they might genuinely feel remorse over harming someone within their group or family. They will have a moral code specific to that context: they might not lie, exploit, or manipulate within the group. Thus, they exhibit psychopathic behaviors in certain contexts but not all.

See? I warned you the answer was complex. Does it really matter? In a practical sense, yes. The PCL-R has been proven to be the best predictor of repeat behavior in criminal populations, and the best predictor of future criminal diversity and brutality. For those who are working with (or writing about) this type of person, grasping their motivational construct can be crucial to understanding what they’re all about…and what they might do in the future. As far as I know, there is no equivalent diagnostic tool for a sociopath.

Katherine Ramsland teaches forensic psychology, has published 29 books, and writes regular features for the Crime Library. https://www.katherineramsland.com/ and devised better diagnostic assessment tools for the traditional notion of a psychopath, as Cleckley had viewed it. Robert Hare and his colleagues in Canada devised the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R), with 20 items covering both traits and behaviors. Yet most mental health professionals in the U.S. stuck with the

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https://www.sociopathic.net/rants/antisocial.htm

In a world full of fears, perhaps the worst one a human being should have is that to be afraid of his fellow man. The human that should be most feared is the one that has Anti-Social Personality Disorder or in psychology terms the sociopath and or psychopath. The psychopath is probably the most deviant mind that exists and treatment is not very successful because there is not a cure or drug to control it.

The sociopath is a combination of other mental illnesses that are incurred in childhood as a result of heredity, trauma and the lack of emotional development. The lack of moral or emotional development which gives a sociopath a lack of understanding for other people's feelings which enables them to be deceitful without feeling bad about whatever they do. The under developed emotional system, it shows the sociopath is "emotionally retarded" . The sociopathic behaviour problems that start as a child have links to heredity, a family with a pre-disposition to perform crimes, alcoholic parents that do crimes, irresponsible behaviour that persists and parents that do not discipline their children. The child that will eventually be a sociopath exhibits certain feeling inside that they are inadequate, shamed and because of that they are teased and made fun of. The child characteristics of a future sociopath consist of being incapable of following the rules. The youngster will skip school, bully, steal, torment animals, run away from home and the child is likely to develop Attention Deficit \Hyperactivity Disorder or AD|HD. At an earlier age than their peer group the child will smoke/drink, do drugs, and become sexually active. The diagnoses of Anti-Social Personality Disorder is not used for people under the age of 18.

The Psychopath is defined in the dictionary as a person suffering from, a severe mental disorder with aggressive antisocial behaviour which is a nice way of saying a really bad and mean person. There are many characteristics of a sociopath and each sociopath has their own special traits.


If you have a clear distinction in mind, please elaborate. Or, check out the reference link on my post; it says that they are not distinguishable--although there is, as I said, some ambiguity.

Hb

Hummingbear
01-28-2008, 11:39 PM
[SIZE=2]
I agree both are personality disorders but to lump them into a ball is not accurate and just a short cut for ease of labeling.

[long details snipped]

Well, thank you for that precision; but I'm not sure whether that's of much help to Mykil, who may not be equipped to make such a distinction. And in general, I don't think it affects the answer. Whether a behavior pattern is described as sociopathic or psychopathic, people who have this type of disorder are, AFAIK, extremely resistant to change, and to confront them can be risky.

Again, the only advice I can think of would be to try NVC techniques, if you know how. Basically, avoid challenging the sociopath's self-perception; just request a specific accommodation for your preferences in a specific situation, which doesn't require any labels or value judgments. But unless you're confident of your NVC technique, I'd just avoid the person.

Hummingbear

Braggi
01-29-2008, 08:27 AM
...Whether a behavior pattern is described as sociopathic or psychopathic, people who have this type of disorder are, AFAIK, extremely resistant to change, and to confront them can be risky.
...


Your suggestion to avoid the person is a good one, but understanding the distinction is very important.

A sociopath has a personality disorder and, unless it is extremely severe, behaves volitionally.

Someone who is psychotic has lost his connection with reality and is acting out involuntarily.

That is the huge difference.

A sociopath is a narcissist that is going off the behavioral deep end, but doing these behaviors on purpose. A smart narcissist at some point begins to realize their life is lonely and unsatisfying and seeks to do something about it. This often happens in the mid forties.

Mykil, buy this person a good book on narcissism. Have Amazon deliver it anonymously. Amazon carries a good selection.

Then stand back. :wink:

-Jeff

shellebelle
01-29-2008, 10:19 AM
I agree - anonymous.

They have to want to change usually it takes something important to them to create the change. My brother didn't like how he acted, he needed to interact with people for health and income, he wanted to be a good spouse and eventually he realized our mothers traumas brought on by her psychopathic tendencies lead to his mental state. He cut contact which may also be key.

Just like a recovering addict should not be around addicts so can be true in these cases.

EFT may also help.


Your suggestion to avoid the person is a good one, but understanding the distinction is very important.

A sociopath has a personality disorder and, unless it is extremely severe, behaves volitionally.

Someone who is psychotic has lost his connection with reality and is acting out involuntarily.

That is the huge difference.

A sociopath is a narcissist that is going off the behavioral deep end, but doing these behaviors on purpose. A smart narcissist at some point begins to realize their life is lonely and unsatisfying and seeks to do something about it. This often happens in the mid forties.

Mykil, buy this person a good book on narcissism. Have Amazon deliver it anonymously. Amazon carries a good selection.

Then stand back. :wink:

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
01-29-2008, 11:00 AM
Seriously, Mykil, set him up for a blind date with another sociopath. LOL



What would happen if I mentioned to a sociopath
that they were a sociopath? How do you think they would respond, and do you think denial would play a strong kind of role. Anyone? I have known this person for twenty-five years and he really has no clue. If I enlighten him to the fact is change possible?

shellebelle
01-29-2008, 11:05 AM
Hehehe thats funny!


Seriously, Mykil, set him up for a blind date with another sociopath. LOL

mykil
01-29-2008, 11:37 AM
Seriously Zeno, you’re killing me here!!! LMAO!!! This is a person I cannot just walk away from, I have to deal with him on a daily basis and at this point in time I might either just walk away or confront the issues at hand. I have been tolerating the circumstances for Twenty-Two years now. I have just kept out of the way and not ever been confrontational what so ever.
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Now within the next six months or so my life is in for some serious changes. Either with keeping this individual close at hand or shunning the whole situation and walking away from the life I have now and starting a new similar life down the road. Either is Really OK with me, I have no problems with keeping up any project. The real issue at hand is what to do in the mean time. Now is the time for change, now is the time to figure out or atleast come up with a game plan for my future. Just walking away might be too easy for me, and I might not forgive myself for not trying to change this person.
<o:p></o:p>
I mentioned to this person the other day when
I was showing him something and he asked what does this have to do with what I want from you. I turned and smiled and said to him” see now you are only alwayz thinking of yourself”. This in return got me an offer for a soda the next day when he was going to the store. First time ever in twenty-Two years that offer has been made. So this is when I actually wanted to know if the change was possible. He is in his late fifties and set in his wayz with never being confronted before. Was the soda offer a ploy cause he thought I was sooo stupid that I was finally catching on and wanted to head my little brain off at the path, or was it a small change and worth the effort to continue on with trying to enlighten the man?

Will telling him about this post and making him read it after we are all through talking about him really kill him or not?

shellebelle
01-29-2008, 12:00 PM
It won't kill him but he may need you to say "I was speaking of YOU!" very directly.

Just be ready for the fact he may not care which in truth is far harder to deal with than anger or anything else.


Seriously Zeno, you’re killing me here!!! LMAO!!! This is a person I cannot just walk away from, I have to deal with him on a daily basis and at this point in time I might either just walk away or confront the issues at hand. I have been tolerating the circumstances for Twenty-Two years now. I have just kept out of the way and not ever been confrontational what so ever.
<o:p></o:p>
Now within the next six months or so my life is in for some serious changes. Either with keeping this individual close at hand or shunning the whole situation and walking away from the life I have now and starting a new similar life down the road. Either is Really OK with me, I have no problems with keeping up any project. The real issue at hand is what to do in the mean time. Now is the time for change, now is the time to figure out or atleast come up with a game plan for my future. Just walking away might be too easy for me, and I might not forgive myself for not trying to change this person.
<o:p></o:p>
I mentioned to this person the other day when
I was showing him something and he asked what does this have to do with what I want from you. I turned and smiled and said to him” see now you are only alwayz thinking of yourself”. This in return got me an offer for a soda the next day when he was going to the store. First time ever in twenty-Two years that offer has been made. So this is when I actually wanted to know if the change was possible. He is in his late fifties and set in his wayz with never being confronted before. Was the soda offer a ploy cause he thought I was sooo stupid that I was finally catching on and wanted to head my little brain off at the path, or was it a small change and worth the effort to continue on with trying to enlighten the man?

Will telling him about this post and making him read it after we are all through talking about him really kill him or not?

Lenny
01-29-2008, 05:29 PM
If he or she were, like, eating your leg or something, they may simply burp, or probably have you pass the vinegar. Otherwise their response would be about the same.
I believe that is the definition.:2cents:


What would happen if I mentioned to a sociopath
that they were a sociopath? How do you think they would respond, and do you think denial would play a strong kind of role. Anyone? I have known this person for twenty-five years and he really has no clue. If I enlighten him to the fact is change possible?