Burial Taboo

[MsTerry]

Do you consider it politically correct to cremate any body at this time of global warming?
Considering we soon will be entering a global warming crisis, is it sane to burn at extremely high temperatures, bodies where the only purpose is getting rid of them?
Here is some info from Wiki:

There is a growing body of research that indicates cremation has a significant impact on the environment:
The major emissions from crematories are: nitrogen oxides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxides), carbon monoxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide), sulfur dioxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide), particulate matter, mercury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28element%29), hydrogen fluoride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride) (HF), hydrogen chloride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_chloride) (HCl), NMVOCs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMVOC), and other heavy metals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metals), in addition to Persistent Organic Pollutants (POP).
According to the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) Environment Programme report on POP Emission Inventory Guidebook,<sup id="_ref-8" class="reference">[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#_note-8)</sup> emissions from crematoria, although comparatively small on an international scale, are still statistically significant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistically_significant). The POP inventory indicates that crematoria contribute 0.2% of the global emission of dioxins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxin) and furans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furan).

[shellebelle]

I think before we worry about cremation and global warming we ought to work on removing all the yucky polluting trucks and heavy machinery around. If we could remove the buses as well and all those diesel and yuck spewing engines we could really see some serious changes then move onto the 2%.


Do you consider it politically correct to cremate any body at this time of global warming?
Considering we soon will be entering a global warming crisis, is it sane to burn at extremely high temperatures, bodies where the only purpose is getting rid of them?
Here is some info from Wiki:

There is a growing body of research that indicates cremation has a significant impact on the environment:
The major emissions from crematories are: nitrogen oxides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxides), carbon monoxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide), sulfur dioxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide), particulate matter, mercury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28element%29), hydrogen fluoride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride) (HF), hydrogen chloride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_chloride) (HCl), NMVOCs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMVOC), and other heavy metals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metals), in addition to Persistent Organic Pollutants (POP).
According to the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) Environment Programme report on POP Emission Inventory Guidebook,<sup id="_ref-8" class="reference">[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#_note-8)</sup> emissions from crematoria, although comparatively small on an international scale, are still statistically significant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistically_significant). The POP inventory indicates that crematoria contribute 0.2% of the global emission of dioxins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxin) and furans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furan).

[mykil]

OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH Miss Terry; I used to dig graves for a living in the early eighties. This was very lucrative for a young lad. I also lived in the cemetery and had great parties people have NEVER forgotten, that is a different story. In the wintertime when you are digging these graves and hit streams of underground water you see many unsatisfying things in general. You see oozing green fluids leaking and running through the grave you are digging from the graves next to you. You have an idea where I am going with this? I am a firm believer in cremation and would like ever one to be burned to an ash. You think that burning a million bodies a year can ever complete the disease and pollution that burials are putting in the ground water and space the bodies are taking up in general. OH MY GOD!!!!! I think you are joking with this post, at least I am hoping you are joking?





Do you consider it politically correct to cremate any body at this time of global warming?
Considering we soon will be entering a global warming crisis, is it sane to burn at extremely high temperatures, bodies where the only purpose is getting rid of them?
Here is some info from Wiki:

There is a growing body of research that indicates cremation has a significant impact on the environment:
The major emissions from crematories are: nitrogen oxides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxides), carbon monoxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide), sulfur dioxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide), particulate matter, mercury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28element%29), hydrogen fluoride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride) (HF), hydrogen chloride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_chloride) (HCl), NMVOCs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMVOC), and other heavy metals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metals), in addition to Persistent Organic Pollutants (POP).
According to the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) Environment Programme report on POP Emission Inventory Guidebook,<SUP class=reference id=_ref-8>[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#_note-8)</SUP> emissions from crematoria, although comparatively small on an international scale, are still statistically significant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistically_significant). The POP inventory indicates that crematoria contribute 0.2% of the global emission of dioxins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxin) and furans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furan).

[mykil]

SOLENT GREENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN maybe is the way to go ehh??? I wonder if I spelt that right?


OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH Miss Terry; I used to dig graves for a living in the early eighties. This was very lucrative for a young lad. I also lived in the cemetery and had great parties people have NEVER forgotten, that is a different story. In the wintertime when you are digging these graves and hit streams of underground water you see many unsatisfying things in general. You see oozing green fluids leaking and running through the grave you are digging from the graves next to you. You have an idea where I am going with this? I am a firm believer in cremation and would like ever one to be burned to an ash. You think that burning a million bodies a year can ever complete the disease and pollution that burials are putting in the ground water and space the bodies are taking up in general. OH MY GOD!!!!! I think you are joking with this post, at least I am hoping you are joking?

[shellebelle]

I agree about the disease etc - I am all for cremation! I knwo form the earth to the earth and all that but still lets go to ash in the beginning.


SOLENT GREENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN maybe is the way to go ehh??? I wonder if I spelt that right?

[scorpiomoon]

In some states the laws are clear that you must first embalm the body then cremate it. This seems like overkill to me (ha) lobbyist for Funeral Directors in those states is effective. What is the law in CA and the obvious and most Buddhist thing would be to let the body be eaten by vultures or something, which would be another form of recycling but probably illegal.

[MsTerry]

Mykil,

Just because the pollutants go in the air, that doesn't mean they don't exist. There are pollutants associated with a burial, but those come from the casket, embalming or other outside sources, not from the body I would hope.

You could heat a home for a week with the amount of heat that is generated.

Did you ever have to exhume a body? Most of them are so well preserved from decomposition that they still can be used as a source of information.
If we were to use biodegradable materials for the casket, some bodies might actually contribute to a healthier soil.



OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH Miss Terry; I used to dig graves for a living in the early eighties. This was very lucrative for a young lad. I also lived in the cemetery and had great parties people have NEVER forgotten, that is a different story. In the wintertime when you are digging these graves and hit streams of underground water you see many unsatisfying things in general. You see oozing green fluids leaking and running through the grave you are digging from the graves next to you. You have an idea where I am going with this? I am a firm believer in cremation and would like ever one to be burned to an ash. You think that burning a million bodies a year can ever complete the disease and pollution that burials are putting in the ground water and space the bodies are taking up in general. OH MY GOD!!!!! I think you are joking with this post, at least I am hoping you are joking?

[MsTerry]

I don't get it. What is it?


SOLENT GREENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN maybe is the way to go ehh??? I wonder if I spelt that right?

[MsTerry]

One step at a time? or many steps in different directions?


I think before we worry about cremation and global warming we ought to work on removing all the yucky polluting trucks and heavy machinery around. If we could remove the buses as well and all those diesel and yuck spewing engines we could really see some serious changes then move onto the 2%.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Why is it more Buddhist to be eaten by vultures than to be eaten by worms? Is it the "higher" the live form that eats you the more Buddhist? An argument for cannibalism??



In some states the laws are clear that you must first embalm the body then cremate it. This seems like overkill to me (ha) lobbyist for Funeral Directors in those states is effective. What is the law in CA and the obvious and most Buddhist thing would be to let the body be eaten by vultures or something, which would be another form of recycling but probably illegal.

[Valley Oak]

The movie, "Soylent Green," is a science fiction classic, starring Charlton Heston, 1973:
https://imdb.com/title/tt0070723

Although Edward G. Robinson has only a supporting role, his performance was excellent and it was also his last appearance before he died. This leaves an eerie feel to it precisely because of the role his character played in the film and the overall message. He went out with a bang in this flick.

The film was so successful that it even has an entry in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_green

I saw it in the theatre when it came out; I was 12 y/o and it left a lasting impact on me, which probably influenced, somewhat, my radical political opinions. I strongly recommend that you see it but remember that it is 35 years old and does not live up to the high tech movie standards of today. It was a hit when it came out.

When I saw it for the second time a couple of years ago at home, I did not experience the same emotional awe that I felt more than 30 years earlier. Some things are better seen and done when you are very young, before it's too late, otherwise the effect or meaning is virtually lost.

Edward



I don't get it. What is it?

[theindependenteye]

Why is it more Buddhist to be eaten by vultures than to be eaten by worms? Is it the "higher" the live form that eats you the more Buddhist?

I would prefer to be eaten by a sperm whale with Quaker tendencies.

-Conrad

[mykil]

Ohhhh Miss Terry; out of idle curiosity, just how do you heat your house? :hmmm:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>


Mykil,

Just because the pollutants go in the air, that doesn't mean they don't exist. There are pollutants associated with a burial, but those come from the casket, embalming or other outside sources, not from the body I would hope.

You could heat a home for a week with the amount of heat that is generated.

Did you ever have to exhume a body? Most of them are so well preserved from decomposition that they still can be used as a source of information.
If we were to use biodegradable materials for the casket, some bodies might actually contribute to a healthier soil.

[MsTerry]

I live next to the crematory and was able to hook up to their hot air vent, that's how I know it lasts a week!


Ohhhh Miss Terry; out of idle curiosity, just how do you heat your house? :hmmm:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

[nurturetruth]

Look for a link to a really GREAT article from COMMON GROUND about green burial Alternatives ! :treehugger:

It is my understanding from reading the article again, that "tremendous amounts of fossil fuel ARE used in order to get temperatures up to as high as 1800 degrees Fahrenheit for 2 hours ..just to incinerate a single body!! "
:fire:

Then of course, apparently, there is the issue of all that mercury from dental fillings that end up in the ocean and in the fish... :uhoh:

I also learned that there was this biologist in Sweden who actually, "flash-freezes bodies to minus - 64 Fahrenheit and then dips them in liquid nitrogen, essentially freeze-drying them, so they become brittle and shatter with light vibration... transforming them into an odorless, hygienic organic powder." - "Common Ground", April 2007
:hmmm:


** If not cremated, and instead... put in the ground -- the body is going to decompose whether in a casket or not. whether embalmed or not.

worms just help speed up the process of de-composing if no casket /no embalming!
like .."surrendering ourselves back to the earth" and "become a living legacy!" :thumbsup:

The article also speaks of how "natural" burial is less likely to "contaminate groundwater than embalmed bodies"

And the EPA considers all the main agents used in embalming proccess as possible carcinogens..while "the European Union" has already agreed to ban embalming in 2020...

[Valley Oak]

You appear to be so knowledgeable, as if you were a mortician. Or have you watched all of the episodes in 'Six Feet Under?'

I'm also curious to know what the EU plans to do instead of embalming all of their dead.

Edward



Look for a link to a really GREAT article from COMMON GROUND about green burial Alternatives ! :treehugger:

It is my understanding from reading the article again, that "tremendous amounts of fossil fuel ARE used in order to get temperatures up to as high as 1800 degrees Fahrenheit for 2 hours ..just to incinerate a single body!! "
:fire:

Then of course, apparently, there is the issue of all that mercury from dental fillings that end up in the ocean and in the fish... :uhoh:

I also learned that there was this biologist in Sweden who actually, "flash-freezes bodies to minus - 64 Fahrenheit and then dips them in liquid nitrogen, essentially freeze-drying them, so they become brittle and shatter with light vibration... transforming them into an odorless, hygienic organic powder." - "Common Ground", April 2007

:hmmm:

** If not cremated, and instead... put in the ground -- the body is going to decompose whether in a casket or not. whether embalmed or not.
worms just help speed up the process of de-composing if no casket /no embalming!
like .."surrendering ourselves back to the earth" and "become a living legacy!"

The article also speaks of how "natural" burial is less likely to "contaminate groundwater than embalmed bodies"

And the EPA considers all the main agents used in embalming proccess as possible carcinogens..while "the European Union" has already agreed to ban embalming in 2020...

[alanora]

The Neptune Society has a pre-pay plan available, and I believe there is agreement that they will pick up the body within 45 minutes.....kinda reminds me of Dominos. That said I am considering this option as a way of taking care of myself to the best of my ability, leaving no mess for others. They also offer, for a price, the option of various numbers of people venturing out into the ocean to release ashes....So far a consideration, have yet to contact about payment plans/prices, though did so for an elder about a dozen years ago. The monthly bill may seem a bit morbid reminder.........though this could be prompting good reflection for some of us. Morbidity is humbling, and may cause a deep restructuring of values. Am I rearranging my prejudices or am I really thinking? For example; recent thoughts around whether or not my lifelong desire for that true and wonderful relationship with another who possesses maleness and those attributes that cause deep connection with me and feels like soul growth toward more divine consciousness, has been a mere trick of the ego to continue its existence via attachments and karma in perpetuity, halting soul growth, or whether my long held idea of loving and being loved actually creating a better world, heaven on earth, is closer to the truth. Then I remember there is no truth, only perception, and I choose love. The circle repeats. Any thoughts to share out there in Waccoland?! Thanks to Barry for providing this forum, and thanks to those who read me and get it, and to those who either don't or don't and don't, or do and don't or don't and do. I think that covers everyone. Over and out. Mindy

[Braggi]

...
I'm also curious to know what the EU plans to do instead of embalming all of their dead.

Edward

Edward, embalming serves no purpose in modern times except to enrich the embalmer and the chemical companies.

Bodies are now stored in refrigerators until burial or are otherwise dispensed with.

-Jeff

[shellebelle]

Everyone may find these articles interesting

Greener Ways to the Great Beyond

https://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-and-Environment/2003-04-01/Greener-Ways-to-the-Great-Beyond.aspx

October/November 2007

Country Lore: A Casket to Live For

By Jill Choate

https://www.motherearthnews.com/DIY/2007-10-01/Homemade-Wooden-Casket.aspx

[Valley Oak]

This is great news! Especially considering that the whole funeral gig swindles people out of thousands of dollars no matter how poor they are and they are partly supported by the government through laws. They should change the name of the industry to the "Body Snatchers Business." If you have a relative who dies in the hospital, good luck ever trying to reclaim the remains of your loved one, especially if you want to have an alternative funeral service or burial at home on your own property. Laws make this very difficult and the authorities and other stakeholders, such as funeral homes ($$$) take a dim view of people taking into their own hands the whole process of 1. taking custody of the body and 2. burying and holding service without an economically interested 3rd party.

If people want to bury their dead in a piece of land, such as their own, where they don't have to pay very much money, then this pisses off the funeral homes and other sectors that make a living (or a swindle) because they don't get their piece of the pie by fleecing your ass. Like any economic oriented industry, they want government to pass laws to protect their interests, even if it is grossly unfair and hurtful to the families of the deceased.

Edward



Everyone may find these articles interesting

Greener Ways to the Great Beyond

https://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-and-Environment/2003-04-01/Greener-Ways-to-the-Great-Beyond.aspx

October/November 2007

Country Lore: A Casket to Live For

By Jill Choate

https://www.motherearthnews.com/DIY/2007-10-01/Homemade-Wooden-Casket.aspx

[shellebelle]

If you search Mother Earth there are lots of articles on burial etc.


This is great news! Especially considering that the whole funeral gig swindles people out of thousands of dollars no matter how poor they are and they are partly supported by the government through laws. They should change the name of the industry to the "Body Snatchers Business." If you have a relative who dies in the hospital, good luck ever trying to reclaim the remains of your loved one, especially if you want to have an alternative funeral service or burial at home on your own property. Laws make this very difficult and the authorities and other stakeholders, such as funeral homes ($$$) take a dim view of people taking into their own hands the whole process of 1. taking custody of the body and 2. burying and holding service without an economically interested 3rd party.

If people want to bury their dead in a piece of land, such as their own, where they don't have to pay very much money, then this pisses off the funeral homes and other sectors that make a living (or a swindle) because they don't get their piece of the pie by fleecing your ass. Like any economic oriented industry, they want government to pass laws to protect their interests, even if it is grossly unfair and hurtful to the families of the deceased.

Edward

[MsTerry]

Edward, embalming serves no purpose in modern times except to enrich the embalmer and the chemical companies.

Bodies are now stored in refrigerators until burial or are otherwise dispensed with.

-Jeff
That is not true Jeff.
People who choose to have a wake or do a home funeral, still need to embalm the departed.
LuLu did both.

[nurturetruth]

Sebastopol Memorial Lawn offers the green burial option, with no metal caskets; no embalming.

[Valley Oak]

Do you know how they conserve the bodies until burial or cremation? And the costs should be much cheaper as well.

Even though Memorial Lawn is amenable and offers an alternative, it does not address the legal and ethical issues regarding custody of the body (if and how much legal rights a family has).

Also, there is an unfair relationship between government (the laws) and business (funeral homes) that discriminates against families and individual rights.

I'm not sure I understand the role of hospitals in this process of custody of the body.

Edward



Sebastopol Memorial Lawn offers the green burial option, with no metal caskets; no embalming.

[Braggi]

That is not true Jeff.
People who choose to have a wake or do a home funeral, still need to embalm the departed.
LuLu did both.


Yes it is true. Check your facts.

When my son died we did everything at home. He was not embalmed.

It was a challenge getting his body from the Coroner. We had excellent help.

https://www.naturaldeathcare.org/

We are very blessed to have these people in Sonoma County.

One more thing. Since our son's death was an accident, his body was autopsied, which is the standard practice of the Sonoma County Coroner. They mutilated his body horribly. It was callous and unnecessary. Everyone knew what the cause of death was. Nothing new was learned. We could have refused to allow it had we known we had the right. I hope everyone reading this remembers it should they ever have to face a similar situation. You have the right to forbid it. Just say it's against your religion. It's certainly against mine.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Maybe this link will enlighten some of you.

https://www.finalpassages.org/



Do you know how they conserve the bodies until burial or cremation? And the costs should be much cheaper as well.

Even though Memorial Lawn is amenable and offers an alternative, it does not address the legal and ethical issues regarding custody of the body (if and how much legal rights a family has).

Also, there is an unfair relationship between government (the laws) and business (funeral homes) that discriminates against families and individual rights.

I'm not sure I understand the role of hospitals in this process of custody of the body.

Edward

[Braggi]

[quote=Braggi;48556]... It was callous and unnecessary. .../quote]

I realize I must clarify this statement. It was certainly unnecessary. It was only callous on the part of the "system" that forced the process without informing us of our rights.

I do not believe the people who did the work were callous. I believe they were scarred for life by the process.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

How were they scarred for life from the process. I understand if you don't wish to answer; I'm guessing this may be a sensitive issue.

Thanks,

Edward



[quote=Braggi;48556]... It was callous and unnecessary. .../quote]

I realize I must clarify this statement. It was certainly unnecessary. It was only callous on the part of the "system" that forced the process without informing us of our rights.

I do not believe the people who did the work were callous. I believe they were scarred for life by the process.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Edward, they were forced to work on the body of a beautiful five year old boy. We met them when we retrieved his body. They apologized and they looked ill. I doubt they'll be able to forget the experience.

I will spare the readers the details.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Jeff,
I understand you are emotionally charged about this, but when I used the word embalming this is what I meant;
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Embalming, in most modern cultures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture), is the art (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art) and science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science) of temporarily preserving human remains to forestall decomposition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition) and to make them suitable for display at a funeral (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral). The three goals of embalming are thus preservation, sanitization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitization) and presentation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation) (or restoration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration)) of a dead body to achieve this effect. Embalming has a very long and cross-cultural (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-cultural)religious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion) meaning. history, with many cultures giving the embalming processes a greater <!-- start content -->

I agree with you that the chemical preservation is completely unnecessary and toxic, but sanitization is essential and presentation is optional.

We used LuLu's favorite oils to keep her skin from drying out.
But it appears we posted the same link at the same time.
Final Passages is the way to go.








Yes it is true. Check your facts.

When my son died we did everything at home. He was not embalmed.

It was a challenge getting his body from the Coroner. We had excellent help.

https://www.naturaldeathcare.org/

We are very blessed to have these people in Sonoma County.

One more thing. Since our son's death was an accident, his body was autopsied, which is the standard practice of the Sonoma County Coroner. They mutilated his body horribly. It was callous and unnecessary. Everyone knew what the cause of death was. Nothing new was learned. We could have refused to allow it had we known we had the right. I hope everyone reading this remembers it should they ever have to face a similar situation. You have the right to forbid it. Just say it's against your religion. It's certainly against mine.

-Jeff

[mykil]

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/rfs/559389149.html This might entertain you Miss Terry, you can do it yourself and save a buck or two...

[MsTerry]

Is this a business proposal?
Are you trying to unload a bunch of second-hand caskets from your gravediggers days?


https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/rfs/559389149.html This might entertain you Miss Terry, you can do it yourself and save a buck or two...