Valley Oak
12-29-2007, 09:53 AM
I have decided to come out of the closet and publicly declare my bisexuality.
So there!
Edward
So there!
Edward
View Full Version : I am bisexual
MsTerry
12-29-2007, 10:00 AM
what do you mean by "I am bisexual"
I have decided to come out of the closet and publicly declare my bisexuality.
So there!
Edward
I have decided to come out of the closet and publicly declare my bisexuality.
So there!
Edward
Braggi
12-29-2007, 10:03 AM
So ... ... ?
Everybody is potentially bisexual, so, you're a unique individual. Just like everybody else.
Without context, Edward, your statement looks like little more than a poor boundary definition.
-Jeff
Everybody is potentially bisexual, so, you're a unique individual. Just like everybody else.
Without context, Edward, your statement looks like little more than a poor boundary definition.
-Jeff
Valley Oak
12-29-2007, 12:46 PM
I meant to say, among other things, that my sexual orientation includes, to some degree, the male and the female genders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual
Edward
what do you mean by "I am bisexual"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual
Edward
what do you mean by "I am bisexual"
Zeno Swijtink
12-29-2007, 01:33 PM
I meant to say, among other things, that my sexual orientation includes, to some degree, the male and the female genders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual
Edward
When somebody "comes out" as you do here, they often are saying something more than just making a fact about their sexual interest public.
They seem to be also saying "I am open for expressions of interest to hit the sack with me. Please approach me with your vital statistics."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual
Edward
When somebody "comes out" as you do here, they often are saying something more than just making a fact about their sexual interest public.
They seem to be also saying "I am open for expressions of interest to hit the sack with me. Please approach me with your vital statistics."
Valley Oak
12-29-2007, 02:33 PM
I'll try to answer both your post and Jeff's (Braggi) here.
I posted this with the idea that Harvey Milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk) had about coming out in the open and being proud, not sniveling and shaking in fear in a dark corner, intimidated by hate and bigotry. Harvey Milk was openly gay, something almost unheard of at the time in the 1970's. Milk ran for public office (San Francisco supervisor) and won! Milk was and continues to be a shining example of courage for all queer folk.
The gay community present at the wake of Milk (he was murdered by a bigot, Dan White), many gays were inspired by Milk's leadership to finally come out themselves, publicly, and say out loud that they were gay. This helped the gay community put not only the shame and the fear behind them but also to defy the homophobic society that murdered Milk and persecutes the gay community.
I'm very sorry to see that my coming out (especially here in the Wacco Kingdom that I assumed was "progressive") has had only negative interpretations and none of the positive ones. I did not post my message with any intent whatsoever to go "cruising" or get picked up or hit on by anyone. Nor do I feel, as Jeff says, that I have exhibited "poor boundaries."
The intent behind my post was to express pride in my status as a human being and to be able to do so without degradation or reproach. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I expected too much from this community.
At least I wasn't criticized for "being a pervert" or told that I am going to burn in hell because the bible says so (which reminds me that the bible is good to have around when you run out of toilet paper).
Sincerely,
Edward
When somebody "comes out" as you do here, they often are saying something more than just making a fact about their sexual interest public.
They seem to be also saying "I am open for expressions of interest to hit the sack with me. Please approach me with your vital statistics."
I posted this with the idea that Harvey Milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk) had about coming out in the open and being proud, not sniveling and shaking in fear in a dark corner, intimidated by hate and bigotry. Harvey Milk was openly gay, something almost unheard of at the time in the 1970's. Milk ran for public office (San Francisco supervisor) and won! Milk was and continues to be a shining example of courage for all queer folk.
The gay community present at the wake of Milk (he was murdered by a bigot, Dan White), many gays were inspired by Milk's leadership to finally come out themselves, publicly, and say out loud that they were gay. This helped the gay community put not only the shame and the fear behind them but also to defy the homophobic society that murdered Milk and persecutes the gay community.
I'm very sorry to see that my coming out (especially here in the Wacco Kingdom that I assumed was "progressive") has had only negative interpretations and none of the positive ones. I did not post my message with any intent whatsoever to go "cruising" or get picked up or hit on by anyone. Nor do I feel, as Jeff says, that I have exhibited "poor boundaries."
The intent behind my post was to express pride in my status as a human being and to be able to do so without degradation or reproach. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I expected too much from this community.
At least I wasn't criticized for "being a pervert" or told that I am going to burn in hell because the bible says so (which reminds me that the bible is good to have around when you run out of toilet paper).
Sincerely,
Edward
When somebody "comes out" as you do here, they often are saying something more than just making a fact about their sexual interest public.
They seem to be also saying "I am open for expressions of interest to hit the sack with me. Please approach me with your vital statistics."
Zeno Swijtink
12-29-2007, 03:27 PM
I'm very sorry to see that my coming out (especially here in the Wacco Kingdom that I assumed was "progressive") has had only negative interpretations and none of the positive ones. I did not post my message with any intent whatsoever to go "cruising" or get picked up or hit on by anyone. Nor do I feel, as Jeff says, that I have exhibited "poor boundaries."
The intent behind my post was to express pride in my status as a human being and to be able to do so without degradation or reproach. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I expected too much from this community.
For the very reason that I knew you assumed (or know) that we are "progressive" I assumed you couldn't come out to get applause or express pride for coming out.
Come on! What's the big deal? We're all somewhere on the multidimensional manifold of being sexual in this way or another. Where's the accomplishment?
The intent behind my post was to express pride in my status as a human being and to be able to do so without degradation or reproach. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I expected too much from this community.
For the very reason that I knew you assumed (or know) that we are "progressive" I assumed you couldn't come out to get applause or express pride for coming out.
Come on! What's the big deal? We're all somewhere on the multidimensional manifold of being sexual in this way or another. Where's the accomplishment?
Willie Lumplump
12-29-2007, 05:29 PM
Come on! What's the big deal? We're all somewhere on the multidimensional manifold of being sexual in this way or another. Where's the accomplishment?Yeah! What's lacking here is specifics. Maybe if you tell us a story we'll appreciate your accomplishments more.
shellebelle
12-29-2007, 06:48 PM
I have always considered "coming out" to be something that allows those you love to accept and acknowledge your personal choices. On the other hand "going social or public" has always been a way to allow and yes even announce with hopes of interaction and conversation.
On the other hand being publicly bi-sexual is not that unusual or even adventuresome these days versus being public about it in the 1970s. Same with nudism and polyamour even. Its not a shock and really has lost the WOW factor which you seem to have been looking for.
Are you also an exhibitionist - that might explain your need to be public.
I'll try to answer both your post and Jeff's (Braggi) here.
I posted this with the idea that Harvey Milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk) had about coming out in the open and being proud, not sniveling and shaking in fear in a dark corner, intimidated by hate and bigotry.
I'm very sorry to see that my coming out (especially here in the Wacco Kingdom that I assumed was "progressive") has had only negative interpretations and none of the positive ones. I did not post my message with any intent whatsoever to go "cruising" or get picked up or hit on by anyone. Nor do I feel, as Jeff says, that I have exhibited "poor boundaries."
On the other hand being publicly bi-sexual is not that unusual or even adventuresome these days versus being public about it in the 1970s. Same with nudism and polyamour even. Its not a shock and really has lost the WOW factor which you seem to have been looking for.
Are you also an exhibitionist - that might explain your need to be public.
I'll try to answer both your post and Jeff's (Braggi) here.
I posted this with the idea that Harvey Milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk) had about coming out in the open and being proud, not sniveling and shaking in fear in a dark corner, intimidated by hate and bigotry.
I'm very sorry to see that my coming out (especially here in the Wacco Kingdom that I assumed was "progressive") has had only negative interpretations and none of the positive ones. I did not post my message with any intent whatsoever to go "cruising" or get picked up or hit on by anyone. Nor do I feel, as Jeff says, that I have exhibited "poor boundaries."
shellebelle
12-29-2007, 06:58 PM
Specifics - hmmm . . .
Well after years of attraction to the much applauded penis (still a deep running passion) I found curves to be appealing. After a long struggle with guilt and several bad tries at being bi; I found someone special and ta da! My spouse and I shared her for a number of years whenever we possibly could. This allowed me to realize that I loved multiple partners in an open and sort of monogamous relationship. No one night flings; true personal relationships - lovers vs one night stands. In the early process I found nudism, recently polyamour seems to fit well - I "came out" in 1993 about nudism to 100% of my family (went social in 1992) and in 2002 about my lovers to 90% of my family (somethings your 1930s parents just shouldn't know) and I went social! I look forward to my next growth step! My family celebrates my sexuality and accepts me, who could ask for more.
How's that? Do I get applause?
Yeah! What's lacking here is specifics. Maybe if you tell us a story we'll appreciate your accomplishments more.
Well after years of attraction to the much applauded penis (still a deep running passion) I found curves to be appealing. After a long struggle with guilt and several bad tries at being bi; I found someone special and ta da! My spouse and I shared her for a number of years whenever we possibly could. This allowed me to realize that I loved multiple partners in an open and sort of monogamous relationship. No one night flings; true personal relationships - lovers vs one night stands. In the early process I found nudism, recently polyamour seems to fit well - I "came out" in 1993 about nudism to 100% of my family (went social in 1992) and in 2002 about my lovers to 90% of my family (somethings your 1930s parents just shouldn't know) and I went social! I look forward to my next growth step! My family celebrates my sexuality and accepts me, who could ask for more.
How's that? Do I get applause?
Yeah! What's lacking here is specifics. Maybe if you tell us a story we'll appreciate your accomplishments more.
Zeno Swijtink
12-29-2007, 07:20 PM
How's that? Do I get applause?
Only if and when you move to the Other United States and spread your libertine impulses there. :wink:
Only if and when you move to the Other United States and spread your libertine impulses there. :wink:
shellebelle
12-29-2007, 07:28 PM
LOL - Theres another US- Does Bush know?
Only if and when you move to the Other United States and spread your libertine impulses there. :wink:
Only if and when you move to the Other United States and spread your libertine impulses there. :wink:
Zeno Swijtink
12-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Does Bush know?
Of course. It voted him in!
Of course. It voted him in!
shellebelle
12-29-2007, 08:01 PM
LOL - I doubt that. That was Congress wasn't it?
Of course. It voted him in!
Of course. It voted him in!
Zeno Swijtink
12-29-2007, 08:12 PM
LOL - I doubt that. That was Congress wasn't it?
No, I was thinking about the second time. It was an interesting event. Before that the Rest of The World still made a difference between the American People and the American Administration. That distinction showed itself to be untenable.
No, I was thinking about the second time. It was an interesting event. Before that the Rest of The World still made a difference between the American People and the American Administration. That distinction showed itself to be untenable.
shellebelle
12-29-2007, 08:18 PM
Yeh well some (okay most) people follow much better than they lead. Sad fact.
No, I was thinking about the second time. It was an interesting event. Before that the Rest of The World still made a difference between the American People and the American Administration. That distinction showed itself to be untenable.
No, I was thinking about the second time. It was an interesting event. Before that the Rest of The World still made a difference between the American People and the American Administration. That distinction showed itself to be untenable.
Hummingbear
12-29-2007, 10:46 PM
Specifics - hmmm . . .
[story snipped]
How's that? Do I get applause?
I think the request for specifics was addressed to Valley Oak, who hasn't responded. (Unless there's a glitch in the threading?)
Okay, there are probably a lot of us on this list for whom bisexuality is old hat. But it appears to me that Valley Oak (edward) was taking what he felt to be a big step in starting to talk about it. So I'd like to thank him for coming out, just as I'd be grateful whenever any sentient being becomes more self-realized.
I think Willie has a good point; it would be helpful to have more specifics, so we know why V.O. is motivated to emulate Harvey Milk, 30 years later
But then... those who questioned the appropriateness of Valley Oaks' announcement were lacking in specifics, too. By poor boundaries, Jeff, do you mean that V.O. should be more selective about whom he discusses sexuality with? Can you give your ideas about how to go about this?
Zeno's suggestion that going public is the equivalent of soliciting sex seems retrogressive to me. That's very close to saying that you shouldn't discuss sex because it makes you a slut. Or that only your sexual partners (or potential sexual partners) should hear about it. How very un-liberated.
My reaction to VO's first post was perplexity (what is the context of this excitement?), but I was very disappointed to see followups that seem to treat it disrespectfully.
.
Hummingbear
[story snipped]
How's that? Do I get applause?
I think the request for specifics was addressed to Valley Oak, who hasn't responded. (Unless there's a glitch in the threading?)
Okay, there are probably a lot of us on this list for whom bisexuality is old hat. But it appears to me that Valley Oak (edward) was taking what he felt to be a big step in starting to talk about it. So I'd like to thank him for coming out, just as I'd be grateful whenever any sentient being becomes more self-realized.
I think Willie has a good point; it would be helpful to have more specifics, so we know why V.O. is motivated to emulate Harvey Milk, 30 years later
But then... those who questioned the appropriateness of Valley Oaks' announcement were lacking in specifics, too. By poor boundaries, Jeff, do you mean that V.O. should be more selective about whom he discusses sexuality with? Can you give your ideas about how to go about this?
Zeno's suggestion that going public is the equivalent of soliciting sex seems retrogressive to me. That's very close to saying that you shouldn't discuss sex because it makes you a slut. Or that only your sexual partners (or potential sexual partners) should hear about it. How very un-liberated.
My reaction to VO's first post was perplexity (what is the context of this excitement?), but I was very disappointed to see followups that seem to treat it disrespectfully.
.
Hummingbear
theindependenteye
12-30-2007, 12:59 AM
Friends—
I second Hummingbear's comments, especially the puzzlement about the impulse to throw rotten tomatoes at the slightest provocation. I agree that Edward's note was pretty abrupt, with the kinda rhythm of "I just farted." Simplicity can be overdone.
But why don't we all cut each other a little slack? First off, people who say difficult things sometimes don't do it with great savoir faire: I still recall trying to ask Karen to the junior class prom. Just because "it's been said before" doesn't mean this person has said it, or that he regards it as cutting-edge performance art. Maybe he just wants to say it, ok?
There happens to be an extraordinarily high level of intelligence on this particular listserv — I envy the logic & the verbosity & the energy. Yet it's often squandered in disparagement of others' intelligence or motives or body odor. What a waste. And personally — ok, yeh, I'm from Iowa — I just loathe impoliteness. I just hate it. Shit, fuck: stop it, all ye of the teeming IQ's.
Maybe I'm too strong with the 'rotten tomatoes" metaphor. "Why do you say that?" is an honest question. But that's different from the tone of "How dare you say something so passe and old-hat in hyper-illuminated Sonoma County?" I argue for charity, and charity isn't looking down at lesser beings, it's just giving everyone the benefit of the doubt as a fellow human ape until such time as they literally shit on your rug.
To weigh into the intellectual question: I think it'd be great if we had a bunch of "what am I?" posts on this thread. Much juicier than math or Ron Paul (no offence intended to the Pauline brethren). Edward, say more.
I'll offer as a tomatoes object. And my motive here is, first, to start a discussion, as suggested above, and secondly, to avoid doing the work that I really should be doing. I'm sorry to say that I'm probably not bisexual.
Actually, maybe I am. My first involvement, at age 16, was with my 30-yr-old dance teacher, much more traumatic for him than for me, as he was really in love, whereas at 16 (in Iowa, 1957) you'd fuck any willing fireplug. So maybe I have a lurking trauma, I dunno, that pulls me back away from guys — penises i find quite attractive, except that they're generally attached to men. Transsexuals, well, that's interesting intellectually, but to me it's like those "mystery houses" in tourist places where the floors tilt strangely — just not where you feel at home. With women I can range from hyper-macho to ultra-fem, depending on the person, but the other sex is pretty closed to me, except for hugs & conversation.
It's such a fascinating zoo. On polyamory listservs there are periodic discussions of "Am I *born* polyamorous?" I don't dispute that for some people this is a real question, but it bypasses me. To me, you are what you do or what you want to do. And for me, whatever the etiology of it, it involves ladies. My own beloved lifemate always, and also anyone with a certain curvature & intelligence & humor. Though these days I can't say the North Bay is clamoring for my embrace. O benighted females!
Ye gods, now I deserve the tomatoes for abject self-pity, not to mention self-promotion, homophobia, carnivorous tendencies. What was my point to start with? Oh yeh, charity. Talk nice, huh? Be generous. Winning the argument here won't stop the war in Iraq. Those who would seek to stamp out all outcrops of illogic on the Internet are doomed to paralytic strokes at age 59.
Peace & joy—
Conrad
I second Hummingbear's comments, especially the puzzlement about the impulse to throw rotten tomatoes at the slightest provocation. I agree that Edward's note was pretty abrupt, with the kinda rhythm of "I just farted." Simplicity can be overdone.
But why don't we all cut each other a little slack? First off, people who say difficult things sometimes don't do it with great savoir faire: I still recall trying to ask Karen to the junior class prom. Just because "it's been said before" doesn't mean this person has said it, or that he regards it as cutting-edge performance art. Maybe he just wants to say it, ok?
There happens to be an extraordinarily high level of intelligence on this particular listserv — I envy the logic & the verbosity & the energy. Yet it's often squandered in disparagement of others' intelligence or motives or body odor. What a waste. And personally — ok, yeh, I'm from Iowa — I just loathe impoliteness. I just hate it. Shit, fuck: stop it, all ye of the teeming IQ's.
Maybe I'm too strong with the 'rotten tomatoes" metaphor. "Why do you say that?" is an honest question. But that's different from the tone of "How dare you say something so passe and old-hat in hyper-illuminated Sonoma County?" I argue for charity, and charity isn't looking down at lesser beings, it's just giving everyone the benefit of the doubt as a fellow human ape until such time as they literally shit on your rug.
To weigh into the intellectual question: I think it'd be great if we had a bunch of "what am I?" posts on this thread. Much juicier than math or Ron Paul (no offence intended to the Pauline brethren). Edward, say more.
I'll offer as a tomatoes object. And my motive here is, first, to start a discussion, as suggested above, and secondly, to avoid doing the work that I really should be doing. I'm sorry to say that I'm probably not bisexual.
Actually, maybe I am. My first involvement, at age 16, was with my 30-yr-old dance teacher, much more traumatic for him than for me, as he was really in love, whereas at 16 (in Iowa, 1957) you'd fuck any willing fireplug. So maybe I have a lurking trauma, I dunno, that pulls me back away from guys — penises i find quite attractive, except that they're generally attached to men. Transsexuals, well, that's interesting intellectually, but to me it's like those "mystery houses" in tourist places where the floors tilt strangely — just not where you feel at home. With women I can range from hyper-macho to ultra-fem, depending on the person, but the other sex is pretty closed to me, except for hugs & conversation.
It's such a fascinating zoo. On polyamory listservs there are periodic discussions of "Am I *born* polyamorous?" I don't dispute that for some people this is a real question, but it bypasses me. To me, you are what you do or what you want to do. And for me, whatever the etiology of it, it involves ladies. My own beloved lifemate always, and also anyone with a certain curvature & intelligence & humor. Though these days I can't say the North Bay is clamoring for my embrace. O benighted females!
Ye gods, now I deserve the tomatoes for abject self-pity, not to mention self-promotion, homophobia, carnivorous tendencies. What was my point to start with? Oh yeh, charity. Talk nice, huh? Be generous. Winning the argument here won't stop the war in Iraq. Those who would seek to stamp out all outcrops of illogic on the Internet are doomed to paralytic strokes at age 59.
Peace & joy—
Conrad
Frederick M. Dolan
12-30-2007, 02:09 AM
.... Thread Split - Okay everyone I broke up bisexual - sort of a bi-section. Okay I enjoy my humor but maybe its too out there but enjoy! - Break Up of BiSexual (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30272)
Might it be helpful to list the elements of the principle of charity? Of course, I don't mean to suggest that being charitable is merely a matter of following some technical rules; it is above all an attitude, a disposition, a stance, a commitment. But sometimes it's helpful to spell things out.
1. In trying to understand what has been said, assume that the interlocutor is rational (minimally, has a good reason to say what he or she is saying).
2. In trying to understand another's argument, construe the argument in the strongest possible form. (If there is a version of the argument that avoids any perceived errors or falsehoods in the version offered, attribute the better version of the argument to one's interlocutor.)
3. Assume that one's interlocutor is sincere, truthful, coherent, logical, and is saying something relevant, significant, or interesting.
4. Interpret what the other is saying in a way that yields the greatest possible agreement between oneself and the other.
Might it be helpful to list the elements of the principle of charity? Of course, I don't mean to suggest that being charitable is merely a matter of following some technical rules; it is above all an attitude, a disposition, a stance, a commitment. But sometimes it's helpful to spell things out.
1. In trying to understand what has been said, assume that the interlocutor is rational (minimally, has a good reason to say what he or she is saying).
2. In trying to understand another's argument, construe the argument in the strongest possible form. (If there is a version of the argument that avoids any perceived errors or falsehoods in the version offered, attribute the better version of the argument to one's interlocutor.)
3. Assume that one's interlocutor is sincere, truthful, coherent, logical, and is saying something relevant, significant, or interesting.
4. Interpret what the other is saying in a way that yields the greatest possible agreement between oneself and the other.
Neshamah
12-30-2007, 05:35 AM
Being exclusively attracted to women and living in the midst of that other America (two of my roommates are pro-life Republicans,) I can appreciate the courage necessary, even if it is not quite the life and death courage necessary in 1970. A community like this ought to be a an affirming stepping stone to going public in the wider world.
~ Neshamah
~ Neshamah
Valley Oak
12-30-2007, 11:22 AM
Zeno,
I did not post my message for the sake of applause. I did so as an exercise of asserting my sexuality, which is still marginalized and discriminated against. The best way to fight homophobia is to be "out" and this motive is lost to some members on this list.
There is no "big deal." As I said, it is an exercise. Furthermore, There is no accomplishment in simply being who you are and, once again, I did not post my sexual orientation to this list because I felt it was, as you say, an "accomplishment."
If you don't do exercise, you grow flabby and unhealthy. It is very important, especially in a stridently homophobic society like the U.S, to "come out" about being lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, etc, even "straight." This idea might also be lost on some members of this community.
For example, I have met some Jewish people who are very out about being Jewish by doing different things such as declaring their Judaism, wearing earrings with the Star of David on them, etc. This is an important exercise in exhibiting the Jewish community. This helps to keep Antisemitism in check in the U.S.
Antisemitism is very strong in the U.S. It is almost as bad as racism against African-Americans. One of the best ways to combat racism and discrimination is through public exposure and visibility. That's really what being "out" is all about. Being visible and a part of everyone else's daily "routine" or daily visual experience is absolutely critical.
This is part of what diversity and integration is all about. How are the majority of people in society going to know that their next door neighbor is Jewish, gay, or Pagan, if they don't say so? An African-American usually doesn't have to say anything because the color of his or her skin already makes the statement.
I, Edward, made the statement publicly. And this is an important exercise so that people don't fall into unfamiliarity, paving the way for more discrimination and homophobia.
Does that help explain things for you?
Edward
For the very reason that I knew you assumed (or know) that we are "progressive" I assumed you couldn't come out to get applause or express pride for coming out.
Come on! What's the big deal? We're all somewhere on the multidimensional manifold of being sexual in this way or another. Where's the accomplishment?
I did not post my message for the sake of applause. I did so as an exercise of asserting my sexuality, which is still marginalized and discriminated against. The best way to fight homophobia is to be "out" and this motive is lost to some members on this list.
There is no "big deal." As I said, it is an exercise. Furthermore, There is no accomplishment in simply being who you are and, once again, I did not post my sexual orientation to this list because I felt it was, as you say, an "accomplishment."
If you don't do exercise, you grow flabby and unhealthy. It is very important, especially in a stridently homophobic society like the U.S, to "come out" about being lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, etc, even "straight." This idea might also be lost on some members of this community.
For example, I have met some Jewish people who are very out about being Jewish by doing different things such as declaring their Judaism, wearing earrings with the Star of David on them, etc. This is an important exercise in exhibiting the Jewish community. This helps to keep Antisemitism in check in the U.S.
Antisemitism is very strong in the U.S. It is almost as bad as racism against African-Americans. One of the best ways to combat racism and discrimination is through public exposure and visibility. That's really what being "out" is all about. Being visible and a part of everyone else's daily "routine" or daily visual experience is absolutely critical.
This is part of what diversity and integration is all about. How are the majority of people in society going to know that their next door neighbor is Jewish, gay, or Pagan, if they don't say so? An African-American usually doesn't have to say anything because the color of his or her skin already makes the statement.
I, Edward, made the statement publicly. And this is an important exercise so that people don't fall into unfamiliarity, paving the way for more discrimination and homophobia.
Does that help explain things for you?
Edward
For the very reason that I knew you assumed (or know) that we are "progressive" I assumed you couldn't come out to get applause or express pride for coming out.
Come on! What's the big deal? We're all somewhere on the multidimensional manifold of being sexual in this way or another. Where's the accomplishment?
AnnaLisaW
12-30-2007, 12:06 PM
I have decided to come out of the closet and publicly declare my bisexuality.
So there!
Edward
Well Edward, looks like you have just learned that coming out as a bisexual opens you up to bigots of all sexual persuasions. And thank-you, Braggi, for pointing out the often ignored fact that most, normal humans are bisexual. Declaring oneself bisexual routinely brings accusations of being "gender confused" or "afraid to really come out." It is hard to take a person seriously who cannot respect someone for simply stating a fact although a blunt statement about ones sexuality sounds a bit like an "i wanna get laid." :wink: I usually only discuss my sexuality with someone I consider a potential partner. I find it interesting how many "open-minded" people, gay and straight, are turned if I tell them I am bi.
As a dear friend told me many year ago, "Being queer means I don't have to look in someones pants to know if I want to love them."
Blessings, AnnaLisa
So there!
Edward
Well Edward, looks like you have just learned that coming out as a bisexual opens you up to bigots of all sexual persuasions. And thank-you, Braggi, for pointing out the often ignored fact that most, normal humans are bisexual. Declaring oneself bisexual routinely brings accusations of being "gender confused" or "afraid to really come out." It is hard to take a person seriously who cannot respect someone for simply stating a fact although a blunt statement about ones sexuality sounds a bit like an "i wanna get laid." :wink: I usually only discuss my sexuality with someone I consider a potential partner. I find it interesting how many "open-minded" people, gay and straight, are turned if I tell them I am bi.
As a dear friend told me many year ago, "Being queer means I don't have to look in someones pants to know if I want to love them."
Blessings, AnnaLisa
Zeno Swijtink
12-30-2007, 02:01 PM
Well Edward, looks like you have just learned that coming out as a bisexual opens you up to bigots of all sexual persuasions. And thank-you, Braggi, for pointing out the often ignored fact that most, normal humans are bisexual. Declaring oneself bisexual routinely brings accusations of being "gender confused" or "afraid to really come out." It is hard to take a person seriously who cannot respect someone for simply stating a fact although a blunt statement about ones sexuality sounds a bit like an "i wanna get laid." :wink: I usually only discuss my sexuality with someone I consider a potential partner. I find it interesting how many "open-minded" people, gay and straight, are turned if I tell them I am bi.
As a dear friend told me many year ago, "Being queer means I don't have to look in someones pants to know if I want to love them."
Blessings, AnnaLisa
Which proves my point.
All this banter made me decide to come out of the closet and publicly declare my monotony.
So there!
Have mercy!
As a dear friend told me many year ago, "Being queer means I don't have to look in someones pants to know if I want to love them."
Blessings, AnnaLisa
Which proves my point.
All this banter made me decide to come out of the closet and publicly declare my monotony.
So there!
Have mercy!
silverhaze
12-30-2007, 02:13 PM
good thing i didnt accept your invitation to have sex with you. sympathies to your"wife". :2cents:
silverhaze
12-30-2007, 02:15 PM
UM. might u pass along my contact info to your roomies, ??? (if they are single males?)
MsTerry
12-30-2007, 05:46 PM
I don't assume any body's sexuality.
LuLu was considered both male and/or female by people.
but you declaring yourself bisexual is a statement about your sexual intentions, not about homophobia or the lack of understanding in this community.
LuLu was considered both male and/or female by people.
but you declaring yourself bisexual is a statement about your sexual intentions, not about homophobia or the lack of understanding in this community.
Frederick M. Dolan
12-30-2007, 06:35 PM
I think any posting is ultimately a form of flirtation.
Not only does this sentence have real literary beauty -- it stands on its own, like an aphorism -- but it's a fascinating assertion. I think it deserves its own thread. Debate the issue: Resolved: Any posting is ultimately a form of flirtation.
Not only does this sentence have real literary beauty -- it stands on its own, like an aphorism -- but it's a fascinating assertion. I think it deserves its own thread. Debate the issue: Resolved: Any posting is ultimately a form of flirtation.
Muel
12-31-2007, 08:27 AM
Depends whether you assume the common definition of "flirtation" or whether you have a broader meaning in view.
Willie Lumplump
12-31-2007, 10:22 AM
Depends whether you assume the common definition of "flirtation" or whether you have a broader meaning in view.Perhaps you meant to say "a broader end in view."
MsTerry
12-31-2007, 10:29 AM
did you mean "a broader bottom"?
Perhaps you meant to say "a broader end in view."
Perhaps you meant to say "a broader end in view."
Willie Lumplump
12-31-2007, 10:37 AM
All this banter made me decide to come out of the closet and publicly declare my monotony.I'm shocked!
MsTerry
12-31-2007, 11:45 AM
I like monotony.
It's comforting, predictable and it can last for a long time.
I think it is considered Green too!
It's comforting, predictable and it can last for a long time.
I think it is considered Green too!
Braggi
01-01-2008, 11:11 AM
So ... ... ?
[snip]
Without context, Edward, your statement looks like little more than a poor boundary definition.
I quote myself here since Edward was taken aback by my comment, others have seen it as negative, and it's been so long since I posted. I usually don't "hit and run," but life is pretty full these days.
First, I'll qualify by stating that I've known Edward for many years. He and I have shared numerous adventures and have watched each other's social and Spiritual (my term) growth over the years. I consider Edward a friend and confidant. I don't make the following comments in a vacuum.
I think I know Edward's intention when he made the original post and I don't think it was a positive intention. Edward makes brash statements from time to time intended to attack people who think differently from himself. Perhaps attack is too strong a word, but I think his intent in this case was to inflame people whose sense of morality would be offended by his statement. His hope was to begin an argument that justified the existence of his bisexuality as well as his right to state it in a public forum. In that he would have been supported by many open minded folks here on Waccobb, I don't see his statement as particularly brave nor the making of it as particularly risky. Again I say, "So?"
I don't think it serves a community to blatantly write large the differences from other communities. This is how fundamentalists define "the enemy." See most of the "books" known collectively as "The Bible," especially the "Old Testament." The purpose, in my opinion, of the Old Testament was to define "The Chosen People" and declare their differences from the "Other." Then justification was made to make war on the Other and take away its lands and wealth. The Earth suffers under these delusions to this day and, perhaps, to the point of its destruction. We can do better.
I doubt Edward considers himself a fundamentalist of any stripe, and yet I have seen him act like one over and over. I don't think it looks good on him or on anyone. I've done it myself and I usually regret it.
Edward could have set a context in which to discuss sexuality in general, or even the concept of bisexuality in particular, during which he could have come out in a gentle way instead of in an arm folded, jaw set, threatening way. "So there!" I would have been pleased to see it and would have participated in a very positive way. I personally think bisexuality is the most evolved form of sexuality and if more people were bisexual, or at least bi tolerant, the world would be a better place. I think that transition is underway and perhaps a new thread with a more gentle opening post could be created.
I've never understood Edward's need to separate himself from other people with the statements he makes. I see it as hostile, aggressive and unnecessarily so. Edward is a nice guy whose heart is in the right place, in my opinion. I think he truly wants the best for the world and its people. Hopefully his interface to the world will soften somewhat.
-Jeff
[snip]
Without context, Edward, your statement looks like little more than a poor boundary definition.
I quote myself here since Edward was taken aback by my comment, others have seen it as negative, and it's been so long since I posted. I usually don't "hit and run," but life is pretty full these days.
First, I'll qualify by stating that I've known Edward for many years. He and I have shared numerous adventures and have watched each other's social and Spiritual (my term) growth over the years. I consider Edward a friend and confidant. I don't make the following comments in a vacuum.
I think I know Edward's intention when he made the original post and I don't think it was a positive intention. Edward makes brash statements from time to time intended to attack people who think differently from himself. Perhaps attack is too strong a word, but I think his intent in this case was to inflame people whose sense of morality would be offended by his statement. His hope was to begin an argument that justified the existence of his bisexuality as well as his right to state it in a public forum. In that he would have been supported by many open minded folks here on Waccobb, I don't see his statement as particularly brave nor the making of it as particularly risky. Again I say, "So?"
I don't think it serves a community to blatantly write large the differences from other communities. This is how fundamentalists define "the enemy." See most of the "books" known collectively as "The Bible," especially the "Old Testament." The purpose, in my opinion, of the Old Testament was to define "The Chosen People" and declare their differences from the "Other." Then justification was made to make war on the Other and take away its lands and wealth. The Earth suffers under these delusions to this day and, perhaps, to the point of its destruction. We can do better.
I doubt Edward considers himself a fundamentalist of any stripe, and yet I have seen him act like one over and over. I don't think it looks good on him or on anyone. I've done it myself and I usually regret it.
Edward could have set a context in which to discuss sexuality in general, or even the concept of bisexuality in particular, during which he could have come out in a gentle way instead of in an arm folded, jaw set, threatening way. "So there!" I would have been pleased to see it and would have participated in a very positive way. I personally think bisexuality is the most evolved form of sexuality and if more people were bisexual, or at least bi tolerant, the world would be a better place. I think that transition is underway and perhaps a new thread with a more gentle opening post could be created.
I've never understood Edward's need to separate himself from other people with the statements he makes. I see it as hostile, aggressive and unnecessarily so. Edward is a nice guy whose heart is in the right place, in my opinion. I think he truly wants the best for the world and its people. Hopefully his interface to the world will soften somewhat.
-Jeff
Willie Lumplump
01-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I quote myself here since Edward was taken aback by my comment, others have seen it as negative, and it's been so long since I posted.-JeffWell, in any case, Edward's sexual preferences "neither pick my pocket nor break my leg," as Thomas Jefferson put it. So it's really a matter of little interest to me.
Valley Oak
01-01-2008, 07:28 PM
Jeff and other community members,
Thank you (Jeff) for your kind and thoughtful reply as well as your confirmation of continued friendship, which I value greatly.
Yes, I do challenge peoples’ thinking on issues such as the war in Iraq, gay rights, abortions rights, racism, religion, politics, social programs, and just about any topic under the sun. These kinds of issues stir me emotionally; that is why I got my BA in Political Science at SSU in 2003 and am now pursuing graduate studies in the same institution.
I appreciate your view that I may be going about it the wrong way with the strong delivery that I have often used and you just might have a point I need to heed. I’m still learning just like everyone else and I think that growth is a process that everyone goes through until the day they die. When I post a “brash” statement, as you say, I do so to test the social waters and the general attitude of the community. I consider it a type of activism and maybe this is a mistaken strategy for social change.
Regarding the issue of bravery (and I honestly believe that this is a lesser point in this discussion), I agree that there is much more credibility in coming out face to face with folks, whether individually or in front of a group. But nonetheless, the Wacco forum is the environment that I chose, independent of the fact that there is an obvious and important factor of anonymity.
My name is Edward and I live in Santa Rosa and have been residing here with my family since 2000. I will be more than happy to shake hands with people at a Wacco picnic or other event as soon as the opportunity arises. (And if you don’t want to shake my hand then at least you will have a chance to see me in person).
One idea that I have been warming up to is one that is referred to as “context.” I don’t fully understand the idea other than that when I do have something important to say that I should try to include an explanation of some sort, preferably a long, detailed, and well supported one. The idea was originally lost on me because if I lived, for example, in the slave period of the United States then my tendency would be like that of John Brown; I would definitely be a very vocal abolitionist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29).
My entire life, since I was a child, I have had to listen to an endless number of grossly disparaging remarks about gays: “Fags are perverts,” “All queers will burn in hell,” “AIDS is god’s punishment for homos,” etc, etc, etc. I also went through an EXTREMELY difficult phase in my life when I was coming of age (becoming an adult) and desperately trying to identify my sexual identity because of a society that condemned homosexuality in no uncertain terms and ubiquitously.
Now that I’m an adult and I know that I’m not a pervert and that I’m not going to burn in hell despite what most of the religious community believes, I feel an intense and deep seeded resentment towards homophobic attitudes, something that I was deliberately trying to provoke in the Wacco list, to see if there are any in this community.
For me, coming out is very, very important and equally serious business. If someone is homophobic then I want them to know immediately who and what I am and if they are my enemy then I need to know this as soon as possible. I don’t want people telling me they are my friends or associating with me, no matter what the situation, without it being clear who I am if they hate gays. Some situations require more tact than others but ultimately I will prevail in coming out. Perhaps the Wacco community is too “easy” in this regard precisely because of the element of anonymity and being only able to see a text message without a physical person behind those words.
Regardless, I truly believe that I should be able to state my status even in the Wacco list but with the new consideration of “context,” which I’m still trying to get a handle on. For now, I will always try to include at least an explanation (if not also supported with good argument and/or references) rather than sending my explosive one-liners like Trident Missiles or something abrupt and disturbing to the community.
Thank you for listening,
Edward
I quote myself here since Edward was taken aback by my comment, others have seen it as negative, and it's been so long since I posted. I usually don't "hit and run," but life is pretty full these days.
First, I'll qualify by stating that I've known Edward for many years. He and I have shared numerous adventures and have watched each other's social and Spiritual (my term) growth over the years. I consider Edward a friend and confidant. I don't make the following comments in a vacuum.
I think I know Edward's intention when he made the original post and I don't think it was a positive intention. Edward makes brash statements from time to time intended to attack people who think differently from himself. Perhaps attack is too strong a word, but I think his intent in this case was to inflame people whose sense of morality would be offended by his statement. His hope was to begin an argument that justified the existence of his bisexuality as well as his right to state it in a public forum. In that he would have been supported by many open minded folks here on Waccobb, I don't see his statement as particularly brave nor the making of it as particularly risky. Again I say, "So?"
I don't think it serves a community to blatantly write large the differences from other communities. This is how fundamentalists define "the enemy." See most of the "books" known collectively as "The Bible," especially the "Old Testament." The purpose, in my opinion, of the Old Testament was to define "The Chosen People" and declare their differences from the "Other." Then justification was made to make war on the Other and take away its lands and wealth. The Earth suffers under these delusions to this day and, perhaps, to the point of its destruction. We can do better.
I doubt Edward considers himself a fundamentalist of any stripe, and yet I have seen him act like one over and over. I don't think it looks good on him or on anyone. I've done it myself and I usually regret it.
Edward could have set a context in which to discuss sexuality in general, or even the concept of bisexuality in particular, during which he could have come out in a gentle way instead of in an arm folded, jaw set, threatening way. "So there!" I would have been pleased to see it and would have participated in a very positive way. I personally think bisexuality is the most evolved form of sexuality and if more people were bisexual, or at least bi tolerant, the world would be a better place. I think that transition is underway and perhaps a new thread with a more gentle opening post could be created.
I've never understood Edward's need to separate himself from other people with the statements he makes. I see it as hostile, aggressive and unnecessarily so. Edward is a nice guy whose heart is in the right place, in my opinion. I think he truly wants the best for the world and its people. Hopefully his interface to the world will soften somewhat.
-Jeff
Thank you (Jeff) for your kind and thoughtful reply as well as your confirmation of continued friendship, which I value greatly.
Yes, I do challenge peoples’ thinking on issues such as the war in Iraq, gay rights, abortions rights, racism, religion, politics, social programs, and just about any topic under the sun. These kinds of issues stir me emotionally; that is why I got my BA in Political Science at SSU in 2003 and am now pursuing graduate studies in the same institution.
I appreciate your view that I may be going about it the wrong way with the strong delivery that I have often used and you just might have a point I need to heed. I’m still learning just like everyone else and I think that growth is a process that everyone goes through until the day they die. When I post a “brash” statement, as you say, I do so to test the social waters and the general attitude of the community. I consider it a type of activism and maybe this is a mistaken strategy for social change.
Regarding the issue of bravery (and I honestly believe that this is a lesser point in this discussion), I agree that there is much more credibility in coming out face to face with folks, whether individually or in front of a group. But nonetheless, the Wacco forum is the environment that I chose, independent of the fact that there is an obvious and important factor of anonymity.
My name is Edward and I live in Santa Rosa and have been residing here with my family since 2000. I will be more than happy to shake hands with people at a Wacco picnic or other event as soon as the opportunity arises. (And if you don’t want to shake my hand then at least you will have a chance to see me in person).
One idea that I have been warming up to is one that is referred to as “context.” I don’t fully understand the idea other than that when I do have something important to say that I should try to include an explanation of some sort, preferably a long, detailed, and well supported one. The idea was originally lost on me because if I lived, for example, in the slave period of the United States then my tendency would be like that of John Brown; I would definitely be a very vocal abolitionist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29).
My entire life, since I was a child, I have had to listen to an endless number of grossly disparaging remarks about gays: “Fags are perverts,” “All queers will burn in hell,” “AIDS is god’s punishment for homos,” etc, etc, etc. I also went through an EXTREMELY difficult phase in my life when I was coming of age (becoming an adult) and desperately trying to identify my sexual identity because of a society that condemned homosexuality in no uncertain terms and ubiquitously.
Now that I’m an adult and I know that I’m not a pervert and that I’m not going to burn in hell despite what most of the religious community believes, I feel an intense and deep seeded resentment towards homophobic attitudes, something that I was deliberately trying to provoke in the Wacco list, to see if there are any in this community.
For me, coming out is very, very important and equally serious business. If someone is homophobic then I want them to know immediately who and what I am and if they are my enemy then I need to know this as soon as possible. I don’t want people telling me they are my friends or associating with me, no matter what the situation, without it being clear who I am if they hate gays. Some situations require more tact than others but ultimately I will prevail in coming out. Perhaps the Wacco community is too “easy” in this regard precisely because of the element of anonymity and being only able to see a text message without a physical person behind those words.
Regardless, I truly believe that I should be able to state my status even in the Wacco list but with the new consideration of “context,” which I’m still trying to get a handle on. For now, I will always try to include at least an explanation (if not also supported with good argument and/or references) rather than sending my explosive one-liners like Trident Missiles or something abrupt and disturbing to the community.
Thank you for listening,
Edward
I quote myself here since Edward was taken aback by my comment, others have seen it as negative, and it's been so long since I posted. I usually don't "hit and run," but life is pretty full these days.
First, I'll qualify by stating that I've known Edward for many years. He and I have shared numerous adventures and have watched each other's social and Spiritual (my term) growth over the years. I consider Edward a friend and confidant. I don't make the following comments in a vacuum.
I think I know Edward's intention when he made the original post and I don't think it was a positive intention. Edward makes brash statements from time to time intended to attack people who think differently from himself. Perhaps attack is too strong a word, but I think his intent in this case was to inflame people whose sense of morality would be offended by his statement. His hope was to begin an argument that justified the existence of his bisexuality as well as his right to state it in a public forum. In that he would have been supported by many open minded folks here on Waccobb, I don't see his statement as particularly brave nor the making of it as particularly risky. Again I say, "So?"
I don't think it serves a community to blatantly write large the differences from other communities. This is how fundamentalists define "the enemy." See most of the "books" known collectively as "The Bible," especially the "Old Testament." The purpose, in my opinion, of the Old Testament was to define "The Chosen People" and declare their differences from the "Other." Then justification was made to make war on the Other and take away its lands and wealth. The Earth suffers under these delusions to this day and, perhaps, to the point of its destruction. We can do better.
I doubt Edward considers himself a fundamentalist of any stripe, and yet I have seen him act like one over and over. I don't think it looks good on him or on anyone. I've done it myself and I usually regret it.
Edward could have set a context in which to discuss sexuality in general, or even the concept of bisexuality in particular, during which he could have come out in a gentle way instead of in an arm folded, jaw set, threatening way. "So there!" I would have been pleased to see it and would have participated in a very positive way. I personally think bisexuality is the most evolved form of sexuality and if more people were bisexual, or at least bi tolerant, the world would be a better place. I think that transition is underway and perhaps a new thread with a more gentle opening post could be created.
I've never understood Edward's need to separate himself from other people with the statements he makes. I see it as hostile, aggressive and unnecessarily so. Edward is a nice guy whose heart is in the right place, in my opinion. I think he truly wants the best for the world and its people. Hopefully his interface to the world will soften somewhat.
-Jeff
mykil
01-01-2008, 09:16 PM
Hmmmm here is something I know all to well. The subject of coming out of the closet.
I grew up in Guerneville, right down the road. Ive seen changes! First it was the bikers then the gays moved on in. I never really understood what the big deal was! You are who you are. I have never understood why you would want to stay in the closet in this day and age?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I went to work last summer sometime, asked my dear ole ma where my son was, he was suppose to be working. She told me he was at the gay pride parade in the city; I was set back and started laughing. She asked me why I was laughing. I told her that I thought that before he should have the courage to go to the gay pride parade he should tell his dear ole dad he was gay! She got so mad at me! She told me he was not gay that he was bi! I was still laughing, as a matter of fact I am still laughing. And waiting! It is nothing
I want to bring up and ask him to make him uncomfortable but…
The only reason we new he was gay to begin with was my step daughter whom I raised as my own called me in hysteria laughing about what she had just witnesses. He has never told anyone, but she went to see him and he was yelling about my youngest daughter stealing his boyfriend. Before he new what he was yelling about he let the cat out of the bag. I told her she should go steal the boy from her this way he could say he had all three of the siblings. She is still laughing!
<o:p></o:p>
Coming out of the closet would have been easy for me if I where gay, and the number one saying in this day and time would automatically double you dating capabilities, I envy all you bi boyz and girlz, but again I am not so all you bi boyz stay the hell away from me!!! All you bi girlz I wanna watch!!! LMAO!!!
<o:p></o:p>
Each person in this life has there own issues, being bi is not an issue, cancer is an issue, aids is an issue, paying ones rent is an issue, being bi is just whom you are, be proud of it and don’t forget to tell your mom and dad!
<o:p></o:p>
I grew up in Guerneville, right down the road. Ive seen changes! First it was the bikers then the gays moved on in. I never really understood what the big deal was! You are who you are. I have never understood why you would want to stay in the closet in this day and age?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I went to work last summer sometime, asked my dear ole ma where my son was, he was suppose to be working. She told me he was at the gay pride parade in the city; I was set back and started laughing. She asked me why I was laughing. I told her that I thought that before he should have the courage to go to the gay pride parade he should tell his dear ole dad he was gay! She got so mad at me! She told me he was not gay that he was bi! I was still laughing, as a matter of fact I am still laughing. And waiting! It is nothing
I want to bring up and ask him to make him uncomfortable but…
The only reason we new he was gay to begin with was my step daughter whom I raised as my own called me in hysteria laughing about what she had just witnesses. He has never told anyone, but she went to see him and he was yelling about my youngest daughter stealing his boyfriend. Before he new what he was yelling about he let the cat out of the bag. I told her she should go steal the boy from her this way he could say he had all three of the siblings. She is still laughing!
<o:p></o:p>
Coming out of the closet would have been easy for me if I where gay, and the number one saying in this day and time would automatically double you dating capabilities, I envy all you bi boyz and girlz, but again I am not so all you bi boyz stay the hell away from me!!! All you bi girlz I wanna watch!!! LMAO!!!
<o:p></o:p>
Each person in this life has there own issues, being bi is not an issue, cancer is an issue, aids is an issue, paying ones rent is an issue, being bi is just whom you are, be proud of it and don’t forget to tell your mom and dad!
<o:p></o:p>
MsTerry
01-01-2008, 10:05 PM
hey Edward did you know that Roble means oak in Spanish?
Willie Lumplump
01-01-2008, 11:44 PM
Hmmmm here is something I know all to well. The subject of coming out of the closet, etc., etc.Ah! Humor and wisdom, what a delightful mix.
Valley Oak
01-02-2008, 10:55 AM
Yes, that's why I originally chose that name. Then, when I realized that California has, what is in my opinion, the most beautiful oak in the world, the Valley Oak, I decided to change my Wacco handle accordingly.
Edward
hey Edward did you know that Roble means oak in Spanish?
Edward
hey Edward did you know that Roble means oak in Spanish?
shellebelle
01-03-2008, 10:19 PM
I split off the various conversations that erupted here into:
The Element of Charity (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30278)
and
Big Words VS Dumbing Down - Round 5 (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30272)
Please carry on in the appropriate thread!
The Element of Charity (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30278)
and
Big Words VS Dumbing Down - Round 5 (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30272)
Please carry on in the appropriate thread!