The Debates On This Board

["Mad" Miles]

Dear Waccabbiebies,

Sometimes, when skimming, reading and contributing to the debates on this board, the following dialog from "Apocalypse Now" comes to mind. In particular the section middle section in the copy below.

I include the entire snippet from imdb.com to remind everyone of the full context.


Kurtz (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000008/): Did they say why, Willard, why they want to terminate my command?
Willard (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000640/): I was sent on a classified mission, sir.
Kurtz (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000008/): It's no longer classified, is it?

Did they tell you?
Willard (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000640/): They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.
Kurtz (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000008/): Are my methods unsound?
Willard (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000640/): I don't see any method at all, sir.


Kurtz (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000008/): I expected someone like you. What did you expect? Are you an assassin?
Willard (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000640/): I'm a soldier.
Kurtz (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000008/): You're neither. You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.


Speaking of war movies, I saw "Redacted" today. It's a propaganda tract, and extremely painful to watch. But since it's anti-war propaganda, and I'm totally down with that, I can recommend it to those of you with strong stomachs and a strong rage against our national policy in Iraq.

Unfortunately given its heavy handed tone, I don't think it will convince anyone still supporting the war to turn against it. And isn't that the purpose of good anti-war propaganda? On that level I think it fails.

But I especially liked the rant from the internet anti-war activist, the tatooed girl calling for savage justice for the Iraqi family who was so grieviously harmed.

I thought playing a slide show at the end of actual photos of Iraqi dead from U.S. military action, introduced as actual photos of "collateral damage" was a strong move. But it was undercut by interspersing a couple of shots that clearly came from the film. I would have left the latter out.

The film is based on one of our actual war crimes.

I write "our" because even though I and most of the people (but not all) that I know, opposed this war from the very beginning of the lead up to it, this is still our country (for the moment, if not much longer) and we bear a collective responsibility for the actions of "our" government.

I mean, I don't see hundreds of thousands of tight, organized, trained, experienced and dedicated non-violent direct action affinity groups in the streets, factories and business parks and buildings "fucking shit up" to stop it. And that's what I've been hoping for for years.

I even tried to organize a network of such groups in this county from 2000-2003, before other priorities (getting a teaching credential so I could make a living) and the devolvement of Global Justice Direct Action Network Sonoma County due to ego conflict and turf rivalries, caused me to give up active organizing for that goal.


Back to my original point, what I'm trying to say is that the tit for tat nature of email debate is a process where the medium gets in the way of the message. Nothing is resolved, all is contention and sly insult (I plead guilty! Anybody else?) and it just goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on, ad infinitum.

There's a reason face to face discussions, with specific texts in question, and time limits on the Q&A are the stuff of academia. As limited as that scene is, and egos wrapped up in turf wars are the very fabric of campus intellectual discussion/debate, it has some redeeming value.

Even if nothing is resolved there is a point at which everyone stops slyly eviscerating each other with words, and they break for wine and cheese. Then the real goal of it all begins. The schmoozing and maneuvering to see who is going to go to bed with who!

Nighty night, TV (The Wire!!!) and a 3:55 a.m. alarm setting await this puppy.

"M"M

:burngrnbounce:

[Braggi]

Well, Miles, that was exceedingly long winded for you.

I'll try to be brief in reply.

The main reason that justifies seemingly nonsensical "debate" (though, I hardly see most of this as debate) is that there are readers who may be "on the fence" about a decision. Reading the statements here and following the links for additional information (or reading the exhaustively long articles Zeno posts in their entirety) gives those of us seeking additional data and arguments sources we might not otherwise have happened upon. (How's that for a run-on.)

Even if the main players in a discussion don't and won't agree or be swayed by the others arguments, a third party might move one way or another as a result.

Besides, it gives us an outlet for some gripes and pet peeves. That's worth something, eh?

-Jeff

[decterlove]

Some of the debates are inane and tiresome, some are fascinating and riveting, some are too complex for me to follow or not important enough for me to invest my efforts to understand, and some are just on topics that I've already made up my mind on and can't be swayed on at this point in my journey.

But kudos to all who put forth their best efforts. Many of these issues debated on Wacco just like many of the larger issues batted around in the larger political spheres are simply unresolvable, such as the morality of abortion or gun control. An intellectual argument either pro or con can be developed for almost any issue on the planet. That's why there are such things as debate clubs where each side arbitrarily just chooses one of the opposing positions and defends it.

The real question is will any of Humanity's serious problems ever be solved by the inherently dualistic approaches we are intellectually drenched in or will it ultimately take some transcendental force or event to lift us all to a place where the content of conflicts become trivial compared to the immense suffering they create.

And will anybody be around to enjoy the Enlightenment that unveils itself at that imagined point in Time and Space? I always wonder what Synthesis could occur if both sides of any of the Immense Idealogical Battles that occur in Every Corner of our Blue Planet could just start from the Assumption that the Other Side also perceives some aspects of the contradiction in a correct manner. My sense is that it might lead to an experience of real Wonder and Compassion in many instances, if a safe context could be created for it to happen.

[Willie Lumplump]

The main reason that justifies seemingly nonsensical "debate" (though, I hardly see most of this as debate) is that there are readers who may be "on the fence" about a decision. Even if the main players in a discussion don't and won't agree or be swayed by the others arguments, a third party might move one way or another as a result.

I have to agree with Braggi's opinions. I don't think you can take for granted that these wacco exchanges aren't swaying people. I've been swayed on at least two occasions. First, I discovered that I'm so angry at Bush and his wars of aggression that I sometimes boil over at innocent people (in one case Lorrie). I've learned not to do that. Second, I've learned not to stereotype people based on images I see on TV. It took me a while to understand that Christine is not of the same ilk as Sylvia Whatshername or John Edward or any of the other scam artists that I see on television. That's another valuable lesson.

[Speak2Truth]

For my part, I've learned that folks think Bush started the Iraq War and some even believe he established the US policy to eliminate Saddam's regime and install a new government there. It is astonishing, how little is remembered of the years before Bush was elected on the promise to finish the ongoing war in Iraq. Gore made the same promise. Don't we remember?

I've learned that Truth suffers under the crushing weight of Party or Ideological bias. I am more determined than ever to be open to Truth and not let it be clouded by my feelings.

I am more excited than ever at the opportunity to compare notes with other Liberal Intellectuals to understand what is really going on around us!

:):

[scorpiomoon]

:heart::heart:War is profit. Someone somewhere is making money harming others. As simple as stitching a seam on the hem of a dress. I have re-dress. NO ONE SHOULD PROFIT from WAR. Then it would stop, simple. So why not try enacting or re-enacting the war profiteering act of 1919 or whatever and hound the hounds of hell for making the world childless with no place to go. Remember your ancestors someone fought someone lost somewhere so the beast, the corporate beast could be fed. Stop FEEDING the beast. Food is scarce anyway.