The Art of Trolling [Archive]

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 01:30 PM

Willie and Clancy, (and even you Scorpiomoon by giving them credibility), are doing more harm with your posts in this thread than Ms. Terry could ever do by starting it. You both may dislike ThePhiant and have questions about whether she is still alive, is male or female, or is trolling. Start another thread to discuss this, it doesn't belong here. The thread itself is a beneficial one. Our culture does not honor grieving and few people listen to those that grieve. You get these "you need to keep busy, get over it, it's been ___ months, I think you need an anti-depressant...etc." I do not picture "ThePhiant" laughing while reading these posts. Even if she was, she's not the one putting ugly posts on this thread. Giving people a place to express their grief and voice their feelings in a culture where few want to hear it is beneficial to those who need to voice them. My opinion, if you're not going to respond to posts like Tinque's with words of comfort and understanding, don't post here.

Leave those of us who are taking this thread at face value and supporting each other alone and take your ugly speculations elsewhere. Thank you.

Christine

We keep coming back to a few basic principles of logic. The fact that some people are touched by ThePhiant's question has nothing whatever to do with the legitimacy of ThePhiant's intentions. If you regard the question as legitimate regardless of the motives of the person who posed it, then by all means go ahead and answer the question. But if you do that, take responsibility for your own decision and don't try to suppress those of us (Clancy and me) who hold a different opinion. This is America. Such suppression doesn't belong here. I am allowed to have and express an opinion different from yours.

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 01:38 PM

:heart:Thank you Christine. I was floored by the response from Willie and was not giving them ANY credibility AT ALL and when I get feedback like that I do feel cool and ancient very sad and took the time to look up "chump" in the dictionary. :hmmm: I did not see that one coming so I guess I am somewhat dense in areas concerning mean spiritedness and would rather live being a "chump" than have to zip it when I feel like sharing or communicating my experiences.

You are confused. No one is telling you to zip it. Rather, it is Christine who told Clancy and me to zip it. Whenever you feel like sharing or communicating your experiences, you should feel free to do so. This is America. No one has the right to tell you to shut up. But please don't interpret my disagreement with you as an attempt to get you to shut up. I have the same rights that you do.

Barry

11-16-2007, 02:19 PM

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think this whole wacco community would be delighted to see LuLu participate fully. A good start might be for her to post her message under her own name. Her message is obviously a straightforward appeal, and I think every wacco member would honor it.

It's entirely possible wacco is still being jerked around. Everyone in this thread is responding to the same anonymous handle used by a fairly clever troll. This tack is discussed at great length on troll sites (and yes, there are sites devoted enitirely to discussions on how to troll sincere people most effectively).

Ohmygosh! I get it! You get the chumps to spill out their guts while you sit back and laugh at how gullible people are and how easily you can control them. Clancy, you've performed a public service here, and I tip my hat to you! I owe you one.

Willie and Clancy, (and even you Scorpiomoon by giving them credibility), are doing more harm with your posts in this thread than Ms. Terry could ever do by starting it. You both may dislike ThePhiant and have questions about whether she is still alive, is male or female, or is trolling. Start another thread to discuss this, it doesn't belong here. The thread itself is a beneficial one. Our culture does not honor grieving and few people listen to those that grieve. You get these "you need to keep busy, get over it, it's been ___ months, I think you need an anti-depressant...etc." I do not picture "ThePhiant" laughing while reading these posts. Even if she was, she's not the one putting ugly posts on this thread. Giving people a place to express their grief and voice their feelings in a culture where few want to hear it is beneficial to those who need to voice them. My opinion, if you're not going to respond to posts like Tinque's with words of comfort and understanding, don't post here.

Leave those of us who are taking this thread at face value and supporting each other alone and take your ugly speculations elsewhere. Thank you.

Christine

We keep coming back to a few basic principles of logic. The fact that some people are touched by ThePhiant's question has nothing whatever to do with the legitimacy of ThePhiant's intentions. If you regard the question as legitimate regardless of the motives of the person who posed it, then by all means go ahead and answer the question. But if you do that, take responsibility for your own decision and don't try to suppress those of us (Clancy and me) who hold a different opinion. This is America. Such suppression doesn't belong here. I am allowed to have and express an opinion different from yours.

I'd have to agree with all the above! :wink: I'd like to give ThePhiant/MsTerry/Lulu the benefit of the doubt that (s)he is turning over a new leaf along with a new moniker. It's been clear to me that some deep pain has been behind many of her posts. I think that she may be experiencing a new loss recently and by prompting others to share about their losses she may be able to sooth hers as well, without being so vulnerable and forthcoming.

Whatever the case may be, I support this initiative and I encourage people to share their losses and comfort each other. May we all be touched, opened and healed bit more. I am honored that this forum would be used for such a sacred need. I will do my best to guard against any misuse of what is shared here.

My heart goes to all that grieve.

ChristineL

11-16-2007, 02:34 PM

We keep coming back to a few basic principles of logic. The fact that some people are touched by ThePhiant's question has nothing whatever to do with the legitimacy of ThePhiant's intentions. If you regard the question as legitimate regardless of the motives of the person who posed it, then by all means go ahead and answer the question. But if you do that, take responsibility for your own decision and don't try to suppress those of us (Clancy and me) who hold a different opinion. This is America. Such suppression doesn't belong here. I am allowed to have and express an opinion different from yours.

I wasn't asking you to suppress your opinions, I was requesting you start a new thread for them. The thread was not started by a question, it was started as a space to express feelings of loss. You are of course free to express your own opinions, whether sensative to other people's feelings or not. I am also free to express my own opinion, which is that to make people feel they have opened themselves to ridicule by posting their feelings on this thread is not right. Why don't you start a thread on trolling? or One on whether ThePhiant has passed or not?

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 03:30 PM

I wasn't asking you to suppress your opinions, I was requesting you start a new thread for them. The thread was not started by a question, it was started as a space to express feelings of loss. You are of course free to express your own opinions, whether sensative to other people's feelings or not. I am also free to express my own opinion, which is that to make people feel they have opened themselves to ridicule by posting their feelings on this thread is not right. Why don't you start a thread on trolling? or One on whether ThePhiant has passed or not?

Perhaps I might clarify my view of the situation by expressing my strong feminist sentiments. I don't like the idea of a man who manipulates women by disguising himself as a woman and using very personal questions to pull at female heartstrings. It's sick. But even leaving aside that point, I don't like to see women make themselves available for exploitation by men. It's simply not in women's best interest to do that. And I think that's what's happening here. If you hold a different opinion, of course that's your right. But as a man, I know a little about how many men think, and I smell a rat.

If you had started this thread and invited me to express my opinions elsewhere, I would consider your request out of deference to your priority. But since you didn't start this thread, we each have the same rights to express our opinions about the original post. The fact that we have different opinions shouldn't surprise anybody. This is a community bulletin board. What else would you expect?

I should add, in case it isn't already clear, that I am not ridiculing women. I would have done better to place the word "chump" in quotes to make clear that I was distancing myself what what I believe to be the view of the writer of the original post. Women who in all honesty and good faith reveal their personal lives are not chumps in my view, but they are chumps in the view of many men who regard them as objects for their own entertainment. And vast numbers of men are like that. I believe that, generally speaking, women should offer trust to the extent that trust has been earned. I don't think that my views diverge sharply from those of leading feminists.

I stop here to tip my hat to Gloria Steinem, possibly the finest public example of womanhood and personhood that we have seen in this country during the past 50 years. Up with women! Up with feminism! And up with freedom of speech!

ChristineL

11-16-2007, 06:03 PM

Perhaps I might clarify my view of the situation by expressing my strong feminist sentiments. I don't like the idea of a man who manipulates women by disguising himself as a woman and using very personal questions to pull at female heartstrings. It's sick. But even leaving aside that point, I don't like to see women make themselves available for exploitation by men. It's simply not in women's best interest to do that. And I think that's what's happening here. If you hold a different opinion, of course that's your right. But as a man, I know a little about how many men think, and I smell a rat.

If you had started this thread and invited me to express my opinions elsewhere, I would consider your request out of deference to your priority. But since you didn't start this thread, we each have the same rights to express our opinions about the original post. The fact that we have different opinions shouldn't surprise anybody. This is a community bulletin board. What else would you expect?

I should add, in case it isn't already clear, that I am not ridiculing women. I would have done better to place the word "chump" in quotes to make clear that I was distancing myself what what I believe to be the view of the writer of the original post. Women who in all honesty and good faith reveal their personal lives are not chumps in my view, but they are chumps in the view of many men who regard them as objects for their own entertainment. And vast numbers of men are like that. I believe that, generally speaking, women should offer trust to the extent that trust has been earned. I don't think that my views diverge sharply from those of leading feminists.

I stop here to tip my hat to Gloria Steinem, possibly the finest public example of womanhood and personhood that we have seen in this country during the past 50 years. Up with women! Up with feminism! And up with freedom of speech!

I smell a rat is not very scientific. There is nothing in the initiating post that says "Women Only" and men have been known to spill their guts too. Private responses to some of my posts by ThePhiant would indicate to me that many of your assumptions about her are wrong. I have disagreed with some of her posts that were too cutting for my taste, but did not draw conclusions as to her gender from it. Again, the original post was not asking for opinions, it was giving space for stories of loss. I did not think you were ridiculing women, but part of being "liberated" is taking responsibility for what we choose to share or not share of ourselves and with whom. I do find it interesting that because you think she's setting people up to emotionally exploit them she's male. A lot of women do that too and generalizations about men, as well as those about women, do nothing to bring men and women closer. Many women also find men to be "chumps" for their own entertainment.

Of course, you're right, this is America...you're free to say whatever you want, wherever you want. I'm free to voice the opinion that all the speculations on ThePhiant's gender, motivations etc. should be the subject of a different thread. If I'm not mistaken, that was tried, but it got little attention and few responses...

Should "ThePhiant" begin attacking and ridiculing those who have posted about their losses here, I'll be the first to fight back. I can defend myself, thank you. Until then...I'll continue to be grateful for a space that allowed me to honor my friend Stephanie as I was unable to attend her memorial service.

ChristineL

11-16-2007, 06:36 PM

Hmmmmn... Our culture has Home Hospice organizations in literally every community in the nation, I know, because I used to be a bereavement volunteer for Sonoma County's Home Hospice, where I listened to those that grieve.

I'm amazed that you could so completely misinterpret my motive in posting.

In therapeutic settings, yes. In society as a whole, no. I totally respect your ability and willingness to volunteer. Sorry, I was not challenging the motive, I was opposing the effect.

Christine

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 06:45 PM

I smell a rat is not very scientific.

This would appear to be an invitation to spell out the reasons that I'm suspicious.

There is nothing in the initiating post that says "Women Only" and men have been known to spill their guts too.

And do you suppose that a manipulative man would put up an ad, "Women only need reply"?

Private responses to some of my posts by ThePhiant would indicate to me that many of your assumptions about her are wrong.

I too could cite examples of private correspondence that tend to confirm my suspicions.

I did not think you were ridiculing women, but part of being "liberated" is taking responsibility for what we choose to share or not share of ourselves and with whom.

I don't understand what point you're making here.

generalizations about men, as well as those about women, do nothing to bring men and women closer.

To the extent that generalizations are accurate, they hold the potential of bringing men and women closer. If men and women are to become closer, it would help if they learn to understand each other, don't you think? Misunderstanding is rampant. Deborah Tannen, a linguist at Georgetown University, wrote some amazing books on this topic. By and large, men and women have different goals in life, and that difference is the root of many, if not most, of their misunderstandings. Or do you hold a different opinion?

Should "ThePhiant" begin attacking and ridiculing those who have posted about their losses here, I'll be the first to fight back. I can defend myself, thank you.

Your readiness to defend yourself by fighting back tells me that you accept ThePhiant's agenda at face value. I see another agenda entirely.

decterlove

11-16-2007, 09:01 PM

"Private responses to some of my posts by ThePhiant would indicate to me that many of your assumptions about her are wrong. I have disagreed with some of her posts that were too cutting for my taste, but did not draw conclusions as to her gender from it."

I agree. While I found Lulu's little spree of posts there for a while irritating and I've never taken the time to check out her entire posting history for that very reason, I did find her private replies as well as some of her public comments to be a little softer, life affirmative and somewhat endearing. I choose to take her apparent fate at face value. One thing is for sure...if he/she comes back reincarnated with another moniker to troll with....her style is absolutely unmistakable. And I think once one chose to look horns with her...well, it was sorta like knocking down a beehive...but lots of other Waccobbian posters come with very strong sets of opinions and agendas as well.

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 09:53 PM

I have tried, to no apparent avail, to explain to wacco that ThePhiant's 'style' is not her own, it's tediously typical troll, because it's so effective. It is literally taught on the web, just like hacking.

If you want to see ThePhiant reincarnated, simply peruse any unmoderated forum on the web.

Your message has certainly hit home with me. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about these matters, but I can see that you and some others are, and we can put that knowledge to good use. With Barry's approval, trolling can be prohibited. The only difficult preliminary step would be to define it clearly. I think this would be worthwhile. Perhaps some of us interested in the problem could discuss it in private communication first. We might develop recommendations that we could then present to the whole group. Barry would have veto power over any proposal to ban a member, but there might be viable alternatives to banning. I'll get to work on this.

MsTerry

11-16-2007, 10:03 PM

Braggi

11-16-2007, 10:06 PM

... Barry would have veto power over any proposal to ban a member, but there might be viable alternatives to banning. I'll get to work on this.

I've been trying to avoid getting into this. Willie, don't work too hard on this. There is already a protocol in place. There are already several troll watchers on Waccobb. You need not trouble yourself about it.

If anyone wishes to post to this thread, please respectfully stay on topic.

Thanks,

-Jeff

Clancy

11-16-2007, 10:19 PM

If anyone wishes to post to this thread, please respectfully stay on topic.

Thanks,

-Jeff

Conversations are organic things, they tend to meander to and fro, unless someone tries to stifle them. This is the "WaccoTalk Discussion Board", and I think everyone IS being respectful. You may not like the direction some conversations take, but please don't try to control them.

decterlove

11-16-2007, 10:27 PM

"I have tried, to no apparent avail, to explain to wacco that ThePhiant's 'style' is not her own, it's tediously typical troll, because it's so effective. It is literally taught on the web, just like hacking.

If you want to see ThePhiant reincarnated, simply peruse any unmoderated forum on the web."

I understand your point, Clancy, and indeed if I spent a lot of time on other forums with that common dynamic I might be less forgiving of TP's trolling or semi-trolling. I did find it tedious to see her spat of postings 2 or 3 months ago such as "are you organic" "circumcision yes or no" "why isn't dogfighting okay too" "what is a troll" "does god or goddess exist" etc...

One of the things I noticed and appreciated about Wacco right off the bat was that the debates here are a lot more civil and well thought out, and the term troll rarely came up. CL is just a gd pain in the ass to get a question addressed with all the constant bickering and backbiting and bs that drenches many of its' forums.

But in looking back over TP's posting history....the ones I find tedious seem to compose a minority vs a majority of his/her efforts. Maybe she just had too much time on her hands like I do.

Anyways...if indeed her "style' is just classic trolling, if she returns it will still be quite identifiable and maybe people will resent at that point being duped. I just made a concerted effort when her posts did seem tedious to me, not to even view them or encourage them in any way. And if we get another troll to replace him/her down the line....I guess that's just the price of doing business on internet forums. And I agree with Clancy that this is just the way this conversation is evolving and if that's inappropriate maybe Barry can break it off into a new thread.

(by the way Steve Pavlini forum is good and troll free to my knowledge, so is Barbara Sher's....and for computer, web design stuff, webmaster-talk.......I'd love to hear of any other good resources people are aware of....

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 10:32 PM

I've been trying to avoid getting into this. Willie, don't work too hard on this. There is already a protocol in place. There are already several troll watchers on Waccobb. You need not trouble yourself about it.

If anyone wishes to post to this thread, please respectfully stay on topic.

Thanks,

-Jeff

I would be grateful if you could name the troll-watchers so that I can contact them privately. Also, I would be pleased to know where I can obtain a copy of the protocol.

Willie Lumplump

11-16-2007, 10:57 PM

it amazes me to no end how some people are more interested in being right about something (themselves?)than to do the right thing
Barry I request that you remove the posts that turned this thread into a discussion instead of a save place to share.
for those of you who still don't get it this space is NOT about The Phiant it is about YOU!
I am grateful for those who shared and are able to be vulnerable

Since you place such a high value on vulnerability, I'm sure that we can expect an immediate message from you making yourself vulnerable. And you say that "it is NOT about ThePhiant." Why is that? Why is it only about other people but not about ThePhiant? And why is it not about you? You apparently expect other people to muster the courage to place their personal lives on public display, but you don't apply your expectations to yourself. And when I object, you want Barry to suppress my objections. And to top it all off, you don't understand why I'm suspicious. I hear the shade of George Orwell moaning in anguish. I think we should continue this discussion until we get something settled, because if we don't, it's likely to come up again and again.

As an added twist, it turns out that there are "troll-watchers" on duty. Who are they? I don't know. I can't find their names on any of the wacco web pages. What are the criteria by which they judge trolling? I don't know. I can't find that information on any of the web pages either. I fully support Barry's authority as founder and moderator of this group, but if this is a community bulletin board, it has to have community input, and it would be a big help to have all of the offices, protocols, and procedures written down somewhere. Isn't that a part of what community means? A community understands the procedures by which it is governed? Poor George! Will he never have the chance to rest?

Tinque

11-16-2007, 11:23 PM

Amazing to this whole situation ,at least to me, is that when the subject came up about loss ,whomever the heck even posted it , it was a relevent topic of discussion and I found a bit freeing of some of my inner feelings that needed to be addressed , even if it was by nobody I knew, but I got to express myself,( which I thought this is what this is all about).I am grateful for the outlet as well I am grateful for the support..I really do not understand why this has gone to a strange place! There , in my opinion, must be some underlined thing happening which is completely irrelevent to the topic and reasoning or relevence to what we are even discussing. I am thankful to have had the chance to express how I was feeling no matter if you care or not. It is an outlet , in which I am proud to be a part of and I am very appreciative of it! :heart::heart:

Tinque

11-16-2007, 11:24 PM

Willie Lumplump

11-17-2007, 04:55 AM

I really do not understand why this has gone to a strange place! There , in my opinion, must be some underlined thing happening which is completely irrelevent to the topic and reasoning or relevence to what we are even discussing.

I think you meant "underlying," and you are quite correct. My problem started a couple of weeks or so when, at Mykil's insistence, I shared my story of a great loss--the loss of my wife whom I loved very deeply (it's still there, I suppose, buried in one of these threads). Almost immediately I received cat-calls, taunts, and jeers from ThePhiant. No grand surprise there. What did surpise me was that not a single wacco member came to my defense, not even Barry who--I am given to understand--suppresses troll behavior. I was surprised because I would have defended any of my fellow wacco members in similar circumstances. And now, who shows up but Ms Terry saying that ThePhiant is too shy and sensitive to risk posting a heartfelt invitation under his own name, so she is doing it on TP's behalf. And what is the nature of this invitation? Why, it's an invitation to share deep, personal feelings just as I did a couple of weeks ago when I was jeered by ThePhiant. So, of course, my suspicions are aroused, especially considering that the suddenly shy Phiant is making no contribution of his own, and neither is Ms Terry. And now, during this second incident, how many of my fellow wacco members are willing to back me up? One. Clancy backs me up, and I offer him my hearfelt thanks. It's nice to know who your friends are.

Braggi

11-17-2007, 08:59 AM

I think you meant "underlying," and you are quite correct. ... What did surpise me was that not a single wacco member came to my defense ... It's nice to know who your friends are.

Maybe you should go back and read that thread again.

-Jeff

PS. The thread was: Course Design: Wanna Help? See post #20

MsTerry

11-17-2007, 09:21 AM

Dear Willie,

It is obvious that you are trapped in a lot of (unresolved) pain.
I reread the post that apparently set you of in this downward spiral of feeling like a victim.
you claimed that you lost the love of your life because of events that were beyond your control.
the story you told to back up your claim, shows that you took a job somewhere far away.
The Phiant merely pointed out that taking a job on your own volition does not qualify as something "beyond my control", because it is exactly those things that are under our control.
there were no "cat-calls, taunts, and jeers from ThePhiant" as you claim. I don't think you can find a single person, besides Clancy who is on a mission to discredit The Phiant, who will believe that your life was beyond your control
Willie I understand your feelings of guilt for a lost love, but please don't turn this thread into another forum to prove that you are not in touch with your feelings. Please start your own thread for that purpose
this thread was started for those of us who are in touch with their feelings, and have a desire to share it in public
sincerity needs no defense, but it does expose......................

I think you meant "underlying," and you are quite correct. My problem started a couple of weeks or so when, at Mykil's insistence, I shared my story of a great loss--the loss of my wife whom I loved very deeply (it's still there, I suppose, buried in one of these threads). Almost immediately I received cat-calls, taunts, and jeers from ThePhiant. No grand surprise there. What did surpise me was that not a single wacco member came to my defense, not even Barry who--I am given to understand--suppresses troll behavior. I was surprised because I would have defended any of my fellow wacco members in similar circumstances. And now, who shows up but Ms Terry saying that ThePhiant is too shy and sensitive to risk posting a heartfelt invitation under his own name, so she is doing it on TP's behalf. And what is the nature of this invitation? Why, it's an invitation to share deep, personal feelings just as I did a couple of weeks ago when I was jeered by ThePhiant. So, of course, my suspicions are aroused, especially considering that the suddenly shy Phiant is making no contribution of his own, and neither is Ms Terry. And now, during this second incident, how many of my fellow wacco members are willing to back me up? One. Clancy backs me up, and I offer him my hearfelt thanks. It's nice to know who your friends are.

nurturetruth

11-17-2007, 11:19 AM

I am starting to feel a bit of a " loss..." (or lost..)

the loss of a potential good community "thread" ;

.... which started out as an opportunity to share stories regarding "loss".

i was very moved by "tinque's" and "ScorpioMoon's" posts in sharing their feelings and stories about their mother(s) ..along with Christine's contribution of telling about "stephanie' .

*****************************

[BARRY Posted,

"Whatever the case may be, I support this initiative and I encourage people to share their losses and comfort each other. May we all be touched, opened and healed bit more. I am honored that this forum would be used for such a sacred need. I will do my best to guard against any misuse of what is shared here.]

** It is my hope that this particular thread continues to focus on what it was intended for and not go into such a "strange place" ! **

:heart:

p.s.. i did observe that early on in this thread, after Tinque shared her story regarding the memories and loss of her mother...that the subject matter of "sharing losses" went astray. I can understand how vulnerable AND beneficial it is to share our stories and feelings ...and yet i can definitely understand why MORE wacco members choose NOT to post or are scared to post.

Braggi

11-17-2007, 11:49 AM

There are now two pretty distinct threads intermingled here and neither are very satisfying since they are blended.

Here's my vote to split the thread(s).

-Jeff

ChristineL

11-17-2007, 12:46 PM

There are now two pretty distinct threads intermingled here and neither are very satisfying since they are blended.

Here's my vote to split the thread(s).

-Jeff

I agree. Regardless of who started it and why, I found the original thread beneficial and satisfying. I was moved by Tinque's and Scorpiomoon's stories and I believe we learn from other people's ways of handling loss. If nothing else, many of us feel alone in our feelings and to get reinforcement that we're not the only ones is a comfort.

Splitting it into two threads makes sense and allows everyone's views to be aired.

Christine

Willie Lumplump

11-17-2007, 01:10 PM

Dear Willie,It is obvious that you are trapped in a lot of (unresolved) pain.

Yes, and funny how it seems to get worse when you appear.:lol2:

I reread the post that apparently set you of in this downward spiral.

I think it's wonderful that you can actually do that.:lol2:

the story you told . . . shows that you took a job somewhere far away.

Yes, Africa is far away. Your knowledge of geography is impeccable.:lol2:

The Phiant merely pointed out that taking a job on your own volition does not qualify as something "beyond my control", because it is exactly those things that are under our control.

By now, everyone realizes that Ms Terry and ThePhiant are the same person. Except possibly you.:lol2:

please don't turn this thread into another forum to prove that you are not in touch with your feelings.

On the contrary, I am in close touch with my feelings, and I feel that you're hysterically funny. If you ever lose your day job stuffing letters into envelopes, you can always earn a living as a straight man at the Laugh Factory.:apls: Oh, pardon me, I meant "straight woman." (wink)

sincerity needs no defense, but it does expose...

I don't know the reason for your ellipsis marks, but I wouldn't take this idea of exposing yourself too far. You could end up like Mykil.:smooch:

ChristineL

11-17-2007, 01:32 PM

Dear Willie,

It is obvious that you are trapped in a lot of (unresolved) pain.
I reread the post that apparently set you of in this downward spiral of feeling like a victim.
you claimed that you lost the love of your life because of events that were beyond your control.
the story you told to back up your claim, shows that you took a job somewhere far away.
The Phiant merely pointed out that taking a job on your own volition does not qualify as something "beyond my control", because it is exactly those things that are under our control.
there were no "cat-calls, taunts, and jeers from ThePhiant" as you claim. I don't think you can find a single person, besides Clancy who is on a mission to discredit The Phiant, who will believe that your life was beyond your control
Willie I understand your feelings of guilt for a lost love, but please don't turn this thread into another forum to prove that you are not in touch with your feelings. Please start your own thread for that purpose
this thread was started for those of us who are in touch with their feelings, and have a desire to share it in public
sincerity needs no defense, but it does expose......................

Willie's post on his own loss would have qualified for the original purpose of this thread and this time Ms. Terry, I'm going to disagree with you. As much as I felt Willie was baiting me, I would not have considered reacting with what I consider "judgement" to the one time he posted something personal and made himself vulnerable. No one knows the total position he was in. When you have invested a lot of money and time in your studies, maybe took out student loans to do it, and you're young on top of it, it could be out of your control at the time. It seems he had a choice, stay unemployed or take a job far away. At the time, he could see no way out of this dilemma but to take the one job that was offered to him. Maybe today, years of living later, he would find a way out, he couldn't then. He even took Mykil's advice and talked to his ex-wife, step one in dealing with his guilt and regrets. That does take courage.

I myself can look back at things that were "out of my control" at the time, but might not be now. I also know what it's like to have a degree that proves useless or near useless by the time I got it. When I originally chose the degree I was going for, jobs were available with it. After graduation I could not get a job in my specialty, but had a lot of trouble getting other jobs because I was "over-qualified". I would have needed to go on to a Masters degree to have any hope of using my BS in Social Work. At the time, this was unrealistic and unaffordable. In order to get any work at all, I had to lie about having a college degree.

I agree that "cat calls, taunts and jeers" may be an overstatement, but making a judgement that it was not beyond his control is not fair either. At the time, it was...

In a perfect world, I would say you need to apologize for your "judgement" and Willie needs to bait people a little less and perhaps control the haughtiness that comes through his posts. Maybe just maybe a simple apology would enable Willie to let go of this single minded crusade to discredit "ThePhiant". It is a little extreme, but maybe he feels hurt...and this is his reaction.

To me the whole purpose of this thread would be to give voice to our feelings of loss with no one judging or deciding their validity. In my mind, that would include Willie's two posts on his loss.

Christine

"Mad" Miles

11-17-2007, 03:03 PM

Regarding Trolls, ThePhiant, Sincerity, Truth, Logic, Reason and Culture,

(With apologies to those who want this thread to be solely devoted to accounts of Loss, and with the understanding that the splitting of this thread may be useful, acceptable and inevitable. Go for it Barry!)

ThePhiant is/was a Troll, just read the discussions from late last winter if you're in any doubt. It (I now refuse to call an entity who refuses to identify themselves and plays a slippery game of confusion and disruption a her or him) may have moderated its slaps and slices for a bit, but has stayed true to kind overall. I have it on my ignore list, it is the only poster on waccobb I have on my ignore list. The only time I read its posts is when someone else quotes it, and pretty much every time that happens, its Troll status is confirmed. Although to give credit where due, in the last few months it seems that ThePhiant/Lulu moderated its comments to a point of seeming sincerity, while still returning to kind on a regular basis.

Ask Barry why banning ThePhiant didn't last.

Pace Willie Lumplump and other newbies, all one has to do to get a sense of where someone is coming from on this board is to check their history of posts and what kind of information they have in their profile and compare them with the tone and content of their contributions.

Insofar as waccobb is a community, I would suggest approaching it like any other community that you're new to.

Check out the lay of the land, figure out who's who and what's what before jumping in with both feet. In any society there are alpha's and non-alpha's, and a smattering of creeps, stalkers and psychos, unfortunate, especially for someone like me who is an radical democrat (process not party) and anti-authoritarian, but it seems to be a pattern that holds for most if not all human groups (and other animal groups, ever watch the ducks and geese in Howarth Park?)

If someone is registered in their personal profile with an obvious pseudonym and gives no identifying personal information, or if their profile information is sketchy and logically inconsistent, and if they play a role which seems to involve trying to get a rise out of others, or to defend those brazenly doing so, I read their comments with a large hunk of rock salt. I discount their contributions.

I agree that a policy on troll control might be worth making part of the waccobb introductory text. As for the troll watchers, unless I'm mistaken they are self-appointed volunteers rather than people in "official" roles.

Switching to the question of originality on this board, many recent discussions have replicated points made in discussions in the past. That's cool, but one of the beauties of an online community like waccobb is there is an archive, containing the results of, what is it?, at least three years of discussion. Partly that's why some old threads seem to never die, partly that's why more veteran participants may not weigh in to current debates, because they (and in this case I'm saying me, among others) have been there, done that.

Wacco is a valuable, and cheap!, service, but as it grows it seems to be reaching a critical mass. With over five thousand subscribers, the debates are proliferating, becoming repetitive, and this among only a small handfull of active participants.

I assume the rest either ignore the discussions, or lurk. I monitor pretty much all of the "intellectual" debates, hence I currently fall more into the lurker role. I used to be more active, especially when I was collecting unemployment last fall and winter, but now don't really have the time or interest. Especially when topics repeat previous discussions of only six months ago.

On another tangent, Willie, binary oppositional logic is only one version of Truth/Reason. It has its uses, and is the dominent ethos of the West. But it is not the only form of logic, nor the only claim to truth. There is also the Hegelian dialectic, instead of A or Not A, But not A and Not A, it claims A is inherently A and Not A leading to a new synthesis B. And that internal contradiction is not just a logical negation, but an inherent metaphysical state of negation.

Negation here defined as, conceptual understanding is dependent on contrast. In that we know something as much by knowing what it isn't, as we know what it is. Actually knowing what something is, is conceptually inherent with knowing what it isn't.

This is an inadequate precis that I've just written. For a slightly more complete version look back at the debate about "The Secret", it's in one of my posts from last winter.

And there are other logical systems not compatible with, or in the tradition of, Western A or Not A but not A and Not A.

Part of what I'm trying to say here is that tit for tat email debates are not a very good forum for complex intellectual discussion. There have been some pretty good starts here to a real discussion about complex and important matters, but isn't it obvious that the structure of online boards tends towards the trivial rather than the respectful and profound?

Those are hard enough to achieve in a graduate seminar, where a commonly read text is the center of discussion. Even there the ego trips and turf wars are common. But in an open forum, with participants with varied educational experiences, without any opportunity to judge affect (body language, vocal tone, facial expression, etc.) what are the chances of anything substantial happening?

Intellectual play is one of the joys of thinking, there's a good bit of that here. But the odds are against much other than badanage and quipping.

On the other hand, even in well organized fora, where people meet face to face, as I experienced in the late eighties and early nineties in Chicago during community forums of The Open University of the Left, debate devolved into the two camps of, Reality is Objective (Subject to Scientific Laws) vs. Reality is Subjective (A collective hallucination established via consensual validation). It was the Leninists vs. the Post-Marxist/Post-Structuralist/Deconstructionists. And never the twain met. As a result it died a natural death when the discussions became sterile and repetitive.

Now, Mykil, lurn to spel, all of your claims of intelligence, sensitivity and attractiveness are belied and undercut by your consistent i/alliteracy. Maybe you're just being funny, maybe you can't help yourself, but your crappy style leads me to discount pretty much everything you write. And this is from someone who really, really tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt! Seriously, and not ROTFLMAO. But giving gratitude to Willie today for ripping on you?, nice moves.

So, I'm going out to see "No Country For Old Men" instead of thinking any more about the level and style of intellectual discussion on waccobb.

Yes, "Mad" Miles of Miles on Movies still see's 'em. I just can't find the time or energy to write about them. Not when I'm getting to work at 5:30 a.m. in San Rafael leaving from F'Ville at 4:30 a.m. and not getting home until 4:30 p.m.

Sorry to have missed the parties, I am especially unhappy about missing "The Feud" and "Stiff Dead Cat" at the Mystic last night, and the Gram Parsons Tribute Concert a few weeks ago. But when your eyes won't stay open after 8:30 p.m., well, let's just say your social life sucks!

Gee, I guess this is about Loss after all.

Here's a brief list of great films that I've seen over the last eight months and that come to mind just this instant.

..... "Michael Clayton" with Tilda Swinton and George Clooney

..... That's it!

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

MsTerry

11-17-2007, 03:53 PM

christine,
you have become one of the more genuine and respected writers in my eyes, but I dare to disagree with you on this.
yes it is a judgement to say it was not "beyond his control", but it wasn't judgmental. there were no sneers nor taunts.
it also was a judgement or a choice by Willie to go to Africa as opposed to something that was forced upon him (beyond his control)
I do agree with you that his story would have belonged in this section, but his story was a reply, his way to justify that he was not in control in his life at that time.
Christine,I believe you do your readings to give people a choice in their life, you give them a choice to make a judgement to change their life or not.
Willie, had to choose between his love for his wife or his love for his studies.
he picked his studies...................................

Willie's post on his own loss would have qualified for the original purpose of this thread and this time Ms. Terry, I'm going to disagree with you. As much as I felt Willie was baiting me, I would not have considered reacting with what I consider "judgement" to the one time he posted something personal and made himself vulnerable. No one knows the total position he was in. When you have invested a lot of money and time in your studies, maybe took out student loans to do it, and you're young on top of it, it could be out of your control at the time. It seems he had a choice, stay unemployed or take a job far away. At the time, he could see no way out of this dilemma but to take the one job that was offered to him. Maybe today, years of living later, he would find a way out, he couldn't then. He even took Mykil's advice and talked to his ex-wife, step one in dealing with his guilt and regrets. That does take courage.

I myself can look back at things that were "out of my control" at the time, but might not be now. I also know what it's like to have a degree that proves useless or near useless by the time I got it. When I originally chose the degree I was going for, jobs were available with it. After graduation I could not get a job in my specialty, but had a lot of trouble getting other jobs because I was "over-qualified". I would have needed to go on to a Masters degree to have any hope of using my BS in Social Work. At the time, this was unrealistic and unaffordable. In order to get any work at all, I had to lie about having a college degree.

I agree that "cat calls, taunts and jeers" may be an overstatement, but making a judgement that it was not beyond his control is not fair either. At the time, it was...

In a perfect world, I would say you need to apologize for your "judgement" and Willie needs to bait people a little less and perhaps control the haughtiness that comes through his posts. Maybe just maybe a simple apology would enable Willie to let go of this single minded crusade to discredit "ThePhiant". It is a little extreme, but maybe he feels hurt...and this is his reaction.

To me the whole purpose of this thread would be to give voice to our feelings of loss with no one judging or deciding their validity. In my mind, that would include Willie's two posts on his loss.

Christine

Barry

11-17-2007, 03:54 PM

I split Living Memories thread into this new Art of Trolling thread. Feel free to carry on. If I get moment, I'll post my thoughts about about this.

ChristineL

11-17-2007, 05:18 PM

christine,
you have become one of the more genuine and respected writers in my eyes, but I dare to disagree with you on this.
yes it is a judgement to say it was not "beyond his control", but it wasn't judgmental. there were no sneers nor taunts.
it also was a judgement or a choice by Willie to go to Africa as opposed to something that was forced upon him (beyond his control)
I do agree with you that his story would have belonged in this section, but his story was a reply, his way to justify that he was not in control in his life at that time.
Christine,I believe you do your readings to give people a choice in their life, you give them a choice to make a judgement to change their life or not.
Willie, had to choose between his love for his wife or his love for his studies.
he picked his studies...................................

Let's agree to disagree. I went back and found the original post (#39 under the thread: Course Design Wanna Help?) I do not get self justification from it. Willie admits to having made an error in judgement in choosing his course of study. By the time he realized his mistake, it had started to become out of his control. I know that if you decide to change a course of study late in the game, you get deeper into a financial hole and delay in starting your career. When thousands of Social Workers were laid off due to cut-backs by President Nixon, I was almost finished with my own degree, no real choices left as far as I could see at the time. I finished the last semerster, but: Why would anyone hire someone with a Bachelors' degree and no experience when large numbers of people with Masters' degrees and experience were desperate for work?

I don't see anything in his post that indicates his choosing his "love" of his studies over love of his wife. He painted himself into a corner he couldn't see a way out of and it cost him dearly.

Ever decide to drive through the yellow signal just a bit late only to find it turning red once your car is in the middle of the intersection? Sure, you should have chosen to stop, but it's become out of your control at that point and you continue.

Willie, I apologize if I've misinterpreted any parts of your post..it is the impressions I got from it.

Christine

Willie Lumplump

11-17-2007, 06:22 PM

[quote]If someone is registered in their personal profile with an obvious pseudonym and gives no identifying personal information, or if their profile information is sketchy and logically inconsistent, and if they play a role which seems to involve trying to get a rise out of others, or to defend those brazenly doing so, I read their comments with a large hunk of rock salt. I discount their contributions.
This is an excellent attitude, and I try to argue myself into it. But so far without much success.

On another tangent, Willie, binary oppositional logic is only one version of Truth/Reason. It has its uses, and is the dominent ethos of the West. But it is not the only form of logic, nor the only claim to truth. There is also the Hegelian dialectic, instead of A or Not A, But not A and Not A, it claims A is inherently A and Not A leading to a new synthesis B. And that internal contradiction is not just a logical negation, but an inherent metaphysical state of negation. Negation here defined as, conceptual understanding is dependent on contrast. In that we know something as much by knowing what it isn't, as we know what it is. Actually knowing what something is, is conceptually inherent with knowing what it isn't. And there are other logical systems not compatible with, or in the tradition of, Western A or Not A but not A and Not A.
Granting, for the sake of argument, that all this is true, how does it relate to any of the issues we've been discussing?

Intellectual play is one of the joys of thinking, there's a good bit of that here. But the odds are against much other than badanage and quipping.
Maybe, but sometimes we can beat the odds. Christine's contributions brought about a major reversal in my attitudes toward people who believe themselves to be psychic.

Now, Mykil, lurn to spel, all of your claims of intelligence, sensitivity and attractiveness are belied and undercut by your consistent i/alliteracy.
If Mykil actually believed all those things about himself, I wouldn't have ripped on him. Mykil is laughing at himself when he talks like that, and I was just joining in the fun. Mykil realized that, and that's why he gave me "gratitude."

Maybe you're just being funny, maybe you can't help yourself, but your crappy style leads me to discount pretty much everything you write..
I think that either some of Mykil's humor is going over your head or you just don't like his brand of humor. I wouldn't blame you in either case, but there is a whole lot more to Mykil than you might suppose. Mykil has enough happening to account for--let me count them--one . . . two . . . three people.

Willie Lumplump

11-17-2007, 06:28 PM

I don't see anything in his post that indicates his choosing his "love" of his studies over love of his wife. He painted himself into a corner he couldn't see a way out of and it cost him dearly.

Willie, I apologize if I've misinterpreted any parts of your post..it is the impressions I got from it.Christine
You've understood perfectly. As I said before, you're an extraordinarily empathetic person.

Barry

11-17-2007, 06:38 PM

Willie, had to choose between his love for his wife or his love for his studies.
he picked his studies...................................While I agree this is at the bottom of the "choice", this also another troll-like poke. OTOH, it can be used to explore what is "choice" and how we relate to it, how it presents it self, etc. For instance, I didn't feel like I had a choice but to start WaccoBB.net! More about that another time...

decterlove

11-17-2007, 08:28 PM

Kudos to the MM man for bringing Miles of Insight into the Dark Highways of Madness we blindly speed down unaware and naive like Mutant Teenage Sheep at the Mall.........I'd give ya 4 grats on this one but I'm on a diet....:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Best to you on your Early Mission...I got up between 3:30 and 5am for about 6 years fairly recently and loved being up at that hour but it sure does make it hard to have a social life. Now I get up at 8am and have no money to have a social life! Ah well.....so it goes in the Last Days of the Great Empire....later!:Yinyangv:

"Mad" Miles

11-17-2007, 09:15 PM

Serediptiously I caught this article before checking the board this evening.

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21844203/?GT1=10547

It's about a teenage girl who committed suicide when she was hoaxed/trolled via the internet.

And Thank you for your Thanks decterlove and scorpiomoon.

Willie, your arguments have repeatedly depended on the following proposition, if x is true, then not x is false, hence my response to you for depending on binary oppositional logic.

Yes, it is the logic of western science (and English and American Positivism), my point is that it is not the only form of logic available. You argue as if it is.

I generally agree with your arguments, and have said so a couple of times before. But my previous post mentioned something I've been thinking when reading your arguments. It is a large subject of debate in our modern intellectual culture as well. I didn't see anyone else specifically acknowledging it, so I finally did.

Tara all and good night,

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

P.S. Roger Ebert is right, "No Country For Old Men" is another "Fargo" therefore miraculous. (For the Coen brothers to have created two such films in their careers.) Although not nearly as funny but with the creep factor amped even higher.

Antonio Bardem is the greatest actor alive! (At least in this moment of post cinematic afterglow.)

And to jump threads, Edward/Roble, read anything by Cormac McCarthy, especially Blood Meridian, All The Pretty Horses, No Country For Old Men and The Road. In the case of All The Pretty Horses you'll probably want to read the entire trilogy, The Crossing and Cities Of The Plain. Also check out anything by Alan Furst. Barry doesn't like it when I cross threads, so I'm going to stop now!

Tinque

11-17-2007, 11:47 PM

Hey , do you have a pirate shirt and/or any sense of direction? Because I want to host the next party for Wacco! :heart:

MsTerry

11-18-2007, 07:18 AM

Christine

this is a quote;
"By the time I began to wake up to the probable consequences of this choice to my marriage, I was already so far along in my degree program that it made no sense to back out."

here is a young man, recognizing the consequences of his choices.

"My wife had finished her degree years before and found a responsible job in the mental health field in San Francisco. Her career, friends, family, and home were all in the Bay Area. After almost a year, I finally got one job offer--in Africa. At that point I really had no choice."

Only knowing Willie from his bully behavior on this board. I think it is fair to say that when he was younger, he was more belligerent.
his claim that it was out of his control seems to serve no purpose but to not own his decisions.
his wife had a job, he was aware of the consequences, and he made a choice based on all those facts
bullies usually act that way because they feel they are a victim and need to defend themselves
Willie's out of control taunting, mocking, ridiculing and bullying of anyone who writes on this board, leads me to believe that the marriage didn't end because of his departure, but merely because of his behavior.
not beyond his control, just out of control

Let's agree to disagree. I went back and found the original post (#39 under the thread: Course Design Wanna Help?) I do not get self justification from it. Willie admits to having made an error in judgement in choosing his course of study. By the time he realized his mistake, it had started to become out of his control. I know that if you decide to change a course of study late in the game, you get deeper into a financial hole and delay in starting your career. When thousands of Social Workers were laid off due to cut-backs by President Nixon, I was almost finished with my own degree, no real choices left as far as I could see at the time. I finished the last semerster, but: Why would anyone hire someone with a Bachelors' degree and no experience when large numbers of people with Masters' degrees and experience were desperate for work?

I don't see anything in his post that indicates his choosing his "love" of his studies over love of his wife. He painted himself into a corner he couldn't see a way out of and it cost him dearly.

Ever decide to drive through the yellow signal just a bit late only to find it turning red once your car is in the middle of the intersection? Sure, you should have chosen to stop, but it's become out of your control at that point and you continue.

Willie, I apologize if I've misinterpreted any parts of your post..it is the impressions I got from it.

Christine

decterlove

11-18-2007, 08:58 AM

I've heard their having a puffy shirt sale at SeinOuts down in Berkeley next weekend. Should be a ton of eye patches available too. See you there....yada yada yada!

Hey , do you have a pirate shirt and/or any sense of direction? Because I want to host the next party for Wacco! :heart:

Barry

11-18-2007, 09:04 AM

...

Only knowing Willie from his bully behavior on this board. I think it is fair to say that when he was younger, he was more belligerent.
his claim that it was out of his control seems to serve no purpose but to not own his decisions.
his wife had a job, he was aware of the consequences, and he made a choice based on all those facts
bullies usually act that way because they feel they are a victim and need to defend themselves
Willie's out of control taunting, mocking, ridiculing and bullying of anyone who writes on this board, leads me to believe that the marriage didn't end because of his departure, but merely because of his behavior.
not beyond his control, just out of control

Now there's an excellent example of "The Art of Trolling"! See how well it fits the definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)?

..someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum or group with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative responseWell done, Lulu! And you have succeeded in drawing an argumentative (and humorous) response from Wille!

So head's up, Willie. Take the bait if you want to, but know what you are getting into. And there's always the ignore list (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19804) to help you step out of the dance.

Oh, and Lulu, if you want to keep masquerading as MsTerry, I suppose I can deal, but don't start using Kewl again too, OK? That goes for not stuffing the ballot box (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24928) as well. There's now a guideline:

12) USERNAMES: Use only one username for your postings. The only exception to this is if you have business or other organization you may have a second username in the name of the organization for posting about the organization.

Braggi

11-18-2007, 09:16 AM

That goes for not stuffing the ballot box (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24928) as well. There's now a guideline:

OMG! It's the 12th commandment! :wink:

I don't have to worry. So far I don't need multiple identities around here.

Carry on!

-Jeff

PS. Tinque, I think you meant to post in the upcoming events section. And sure, a lot of us are willing to drive our sailing ships into your forest! Let's pick a date!

Braggi

11-18-2007, 09:25 AM

What rogues gallery! Don't these guys have a life?
3275

decterlove

11-18-2007, 09:42 AM

Alright, I must step in here and defend the Willie. And simultaneously begin to strongly suspect that Ms Terry has indeed duped many of us and is reigning as acting Troll on the Waccobb and maybe should be ignored by all at this point..especially by Willie.

Willie, while I strongly disagree with you philosophically, I respect your efforts to articulate your world view and make your arguments that it is indeed the correct one. Mad Miles shed a little light on the heart of this matter for me...thank you again MM.

And I agree with Christine that Willie can be a bit "haughty" or maybe supercilious at times but those qualities are probably objectionable to me because I can find them in the clutter of my own mental closet as well.

I must stand up for Willie though regarding the accusation that he has been a bully on this forum. I think he has behaved as respectfully as is required in this context and I see no reason to suspect he is a belligerent person, either now or at any time in the past.

And I suggest that you Willie realize you are respected and supported by most members checking in here and maybe it's time to stop taking the bait from Ms Terry or the Artist Formerly Known as ThePhiant, or whoever is continuing to stir up muck in his/her name for the Soul Purpose of Clouding the Waccobian Waters.

"Only knowing Willie from his bully behavior on this board. I think it is fair to say that when he was younger, he was more belligerent."

decterlove

11-18-2007, 09:49 AM

Well Duh....no! Got any of that Wormwood Brandy around this morning, Jeff? Kick back and forget all about this ridiculous thread! I think I'll go play with my snake(s)....

What rogues gallery! Don't these guys have a life?
3275

decterlove

11-18-2007, 10:29 AM

Nuff said! I get it. Gotta admit, she's a damn good fiddle player who has a lot of time on her hands to practice the fiddle apparently. I think she is trying to resolve some of her own internalized conflicts as well by projecting them out into the community as we all are prone to do. Lulu...it's been fun but you won't get my goat to eat the cans anymore!

I guess the madness of it is that all the newcomers and relative newcomers like Willie n Me will continue to buy into it for a period of time thus inadvertantly feeding the cycles....but that's the nature of cyberspace, I guess. Hey, even a peach has a pit in it! The ignore button might be an effective solution I suppose. Regardless...this fog will burn off soon.....

MsTerry/ThePhaint/Lulu etc is playing this community like a fiddle. Most Wacco-ites are sincere, fair, loving people and simply can't imagine that someone would enjoy antagonizing others over deep personal pain, but that is exactly what our troll is doing. The very same troll who started this thread asking people to publically bare their most profound losses.

Braggi

11-18-2007, 11:38 AM

The problem with using the ignore button was illustrated when ThePhiant ridiculed Willie's pain over his failed marriage and not one of us responded. We knew it was the same ol crap from our troll, but Willie and any other newcomers didn't.

At least one of us responded in defense of "the Willie."

The thread was: Course design--Wanna help?
My response, if defense of our Willie was post #20.
Willie acknowledged my post in post #29.

I defended Willie even though the entire thread was begun and operated as a troll thread, just intended to piss people off and get them to jump defensively and reply to Willie's baiting. ThePhiant isn't the only troll on Waccobb.

Elsewhere, Willie replied that I misread his intentions, but it sure doesn't look that way to me.

Overall I think Willie's participation on Waccobb enriches the environment, but he falls prey to that which he dislikes in others. In particular, ThePhiant.

-Jeff

Braggi

11-18-2007, 12:06 PM

... he falls prey to that which he dislikes in others.

I realize we all do something like this from time to time.

Even innocent little me. :idea:

-Jeff

ChristineL

11-18-2007, 12:52 PM

Christine

this is a quote;
"By the time I began to wake up to the probable consequences of this choice to my marriage, I was already so far along in my degree program that it made no sense to back out."

here is a young man, recognizing the consequences of his choices.

"My wife had finished her degree years before and found a responsible job in the mental health field in San Francisco. Her career, friends, family, and home were all in the Bay Area. After almost a year, I finally got one job offer--in Africa. At that point I really had no choice."

Only knowing Willie from his bully behavior on this board. I think it is fair to say that when he was younger, he was more belligerent.
his claim that it was out of his control seems to serve no purpose but to not own his decisions.
his wife had a job, he was aware of the consequences, and he made a choice based on all those facts
bullies usually act that way because they feel they are a victim and need to defend themselves

Too many conclusions from too little information. I will stick to my point of view...It is the way he felt at the time. He might do things differently today...There are a lot of things I would do differently now than I did in my twenties...but then, I felt they were out of my control.
Willie's out of control taunting, mocking, ridiculing and bullying of anyone who writes on this board, leads me to believe that the marriage didn't end because of his departure, but merely because of his behavior.
not beyond his control, just out of control

I will not participate in, or give validation to, personal attacks, no matter who is being attacked. I'll give back as good as I get...that does not require going for the heart.

Willie had the courage to apologize to me publically and to admit he shouldn't have been so rough on me...I respect that.

Yes, his tone has often been haughty and he has at times taunted...I've been more than happy to comment on that. Calling somebody on their tone and attitude does not require a sword to the heart.

Christine

MsTerry

11-18-2007, 01:11 PM

well barry it apears that you like to use two measure sticks

5) BE RESPECTFUL: You are welcome to disagree with someone but you may not attack them in any way, either publicly or privately.
when The Phiant was still perusing, everything was considered offensive and an attack
now that Willie is on a rampage against me, it is considered humorous.
this is what Christine had to say about Willie

However your continued baiting and insults...like picking on people's writing styles or spelling or grammar is wrong. Sooner or later, someone is going to react by getting very personal.

sounds like a troll to me!
Braggi called him on it
but for some reason Barry is still amused
maybe I should start to act like LuLu would have, and give him tit for tat

I must say that Willie and Clancy's effort have paid off
nobody, including me, will now use the living memories thread for its intended purpose.
I guess Willie is good at something

Now there's an excellent example of "The Art of. Trolling"! See how well it fits the definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)?

Well done, Lulu! And you have succeeded in drawing an argumentative (and humorous) response from Wille!

So head's up, Willie. Take the bait if you want to, but know what you are getting into. And there's always the ignore list (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19804) to help you step out of the dance.

Oh, and Lulu, if you want to keep masquerading as MsTerry, I suppose I can deal, but don't start using Kewl again too, OK? That goes for not stuffing the ballot box (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24928) as well. There's now a guideline:

MsTerry

11-18-2007, 01:20 PM

Clancy, you sound real ignorant now.
you are rehashing your insipid observations about the Phiant.
that post was obvious not about Willie's love for his wife but about Willie's insistence that anything that couldn't be proven to exist therefore didn't exist.
even you should have been able to figure that out on your own

Yes, you did, and honorably so, but that was two weeks later, and in a different thread. Here's ThePhiant's taunt that we all ignored;

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=40594#post40594

MsTerry

11-18-2007, 01:22 PM

we met?
not a hair on my head can remember that

You are an expert at being utterly obnoxious then turning around and playing the victim when people respond. Now I understand why you said I 'give you so much trouble' when we met. Your game is up.

ChristineL

11-18-2007, 01:27 PM

well barry it apears that you like to use two measure sticks

when The Phiant was still perusing, everything was considered offensive and an attack
now that Willie is on a rampage against me, it is considered humorous.
this is what Christine had to say about Willie

sounds like a troll to me!
Braggi called him on it
but for some reason Barry is still amused
maybe I should start to act like LuLu would have, and give him tit for tat

I must say that Willie and Clancy's effort have paid off
nobody, including me, will now use the living memories thread for its intended purpose.
I guess Willie is good at something

I'll still use the original thread. I've said in a previous post that it doesn't matter who set it up or why, it is beneficial. There are enough supportive and empathic people in this community to make it work the right way. It is in order to use it that I was one of the ones who wanted the trolling issues split off into a separate thread. I hope, as a community, we can agree that the original thread is used for talking about losses and supporting each other. If a response is going to be anything other than comforting, supporting or stating what we're learning from each other, don't post it.

Christine

Braggi

11-18-2007, 01:36 PM

Yes, you did, and honorably so, but that was two weeks later, and in a different thread. Here's ThePhiant's taunt that we all ignored;

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=40594#post40594

Aha! You are correct. I tried (successfully it seems) to forget that thread. Let me explain my line of thought at the time. I was trying to avoid "feeding the troll." Willie was engaging pretty fully on his own and it didn't actually look like he needed support. It was in the later thread that I lost patience with it and felt the need to speak up because it was really getting to me.

Thanks for the reminder. It was actually fun looking over that thread again. Sure do like Christine's posts.

-Jeff

decterlove

11-18-2007, 02:26 PM

Thread's dead. Just like Zed. Long Live the Thread. Now let's all get back on our Harley's and get out of here. Before the Gimp gets back. Christine, you can ride with me if you like anytime! ZZZZZZZZZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr:

I'll still use the original thread. I've said in a previous post that it doesn't matter who set it up or why, it is beneficial. If a response is going to be anything other than comforting, supporting or stating what we're learning from each other, don't post it.

Christine

Braggi

11-18-2007, 02:37 PM

decterlove has better drugs than me.

-Jeff

MsTerry

11-18-2007, 02:56 PM

we?
is there more than one person talking inside of you?

You are in serious need of therapy. Shall we tell everyone who you really are?

Braggi

11-18-2007, 03:13 PM

we?
is there more than one person talking inside of you?

This is getting rich. The plot thickens.

So, there were close to 100 people at the picnic. We all know ThePhiant was there. Shall we start a guessing game as to the true identity of ThePhiant?

I'll go first. It's actually Barry's alter ego. When things are too quiet on Wacco he goes into a trance-like state and one of his inner demons takes over. Then he starts making irritating posts to keep the juice on Waccobb moving. :Yinyangv:

It seems to work because it usually causes a flurry of posting activity. Later we learn that Barry has had a private communication with ThePhiant asking him to tone things down.

Everything is cool for a few days and then it starts up again.

Am I right? :wink:

-Jeff

ChristineL

11-18-2007, 03:46 PM

Thread's dead. Just like Zed. Long Live the Thread. Now let's all get back on our Harley's and get out of here. Before the Gimp gets back. Christine, you can ride with me if you like anytime! ZZZZZZZZZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr::giwhchr:

Now you've made me nostalgic. It's been a long time since I've ridden on the back of a Harley. Still have my chaps, someone borrowed my helmet and never returned it...too bad, I liked that helmet. I miss riding. This post brought back a lot of memories...most of them good.

Thanks for giving me a laugh and bringing back memories that make me smile.

Christine

decterlove

11-18-2007, 06:31 PM

Your welcome. Too bad I only have a Schwinn. No chaps either. Never liked that look on myself. I did have a Honda down in L.A. some 20 plus years ago. Used to ride it up Mulholland and into Malibu then down on Highway One in the evening. Really pretty coming down into Santa Monica at night. Never had chaps though. Missed out on chaps I guess. Wasn't there a rock band or something that used to wear chaps? I dunno...maybe all that leather feels good against your bare jeans.

No problem about the smile. I got plenty of them to give out. I still think we should ride outa here though, Christine. Maybe take a Bart if we have too. Just you and me. Leave Braggi and Clancy behind. They're doomed to start trying to figure out who the heck TP was at the picnic. I think he was hiding in the balloon Clancy kept tossing up in the air. Clancy's a big guy. He coulda tossed it up with Lulu inside. Probably didn't even know he/she was in there. I think it was a balloon anyway. Power of observation. I mighta hallucinated it. I was tripping pretty heavy after the introductory circle from some rattlesnake eggs I ingested earlier that day. We oughta ask Clancy if the balloon felt heavy.

You can wear chaps if you want to. Me, I'll just wear my Waccobb T-shirt and a thong. Maybe some Red Keds. Always liked Red Keds.

Remember. Zed's Dead.

And Braggi, you let me know when you want to try the good stuff.
Later. I gotta go pump up my tires. :WaccoRays::moped::moped:

Now you've made me nostalgic. It's been a long time since I've ridden on the back of a Harley. Still have my chaps, someone borrowed my helmet and never returned it...too bad.

Christine

MsTerry

11-18-2007, 09:02 PM

.
Leave Braggi and Clancy behind. They're doomed to start trying to figure out who the heck TP was at the picnic.

Clancy was at the picnic?
did he stop hiding his real identity?

Barry

11-19-2007, 12:04 PM

I'm the only official troll watcher, and all input is welcome!

I would be grateful if you could name the troll-watchers so that I can contact them privately. Also, I would be pleased to know where I can obtain a copy of the protocol.

mykil

11-19-2007, 04:26 PM

I for one am a spoiled fucking bastard, for I have never lost anything or anyone as of now in my entire life, excluding my dog that I loved and cherished about ten years ago. Little fuck decided to get hit by a car, I to this day can still not get a dog for I am not over it yet. All my grandparents were not close enough to me to really get uppity about, and I didn’t even go to their funerals, out of state in all. Now if LULU is really gone this will be the biggest loss in my entire life! If she is toying with us, I will be really upset, for I am taking this seriously and am still in mourning! The relationship we have had over the last year has been entertaining to say the least; she really got my sense of humor and I hers. It would be just like her to come back from the grave [vacation] and really lay into us all at once. But then again if she really is a goner, hell I am really at a loss of words!!! It really is not fair for her to just up and fucking die!!!!! I am sure it was very slow and painful but hey she could have warned the hell out of me and prepared me for her own fatality! I for one am not sure if I am more upset at her checking out like this or if I am still upset about not knowing for sure if she I, well you know, fucking dead!!!!!!! She never told me how her heath was, I have heard about it through the grapevine from time to time yet I rally never realized I would never hear from her sweet little asss again. All I can say for sure is I am upset she is gone, either being she has past on or have it be she us just playing with me I am still upset. At any concern I had to put in my two cents, let you all know where on this earth I am with this predicament and please continue on with out any more form me on this subject. For as you may understand I really am at a loss on this one and cant bare to be underestimate her potential as a friend the has kept me in laughter and stitches for every day that I was aware of her presence. If for some miracle she does come back and is alive I am going to track her assss down and put her over my knee and really give her a nice as warming!!!!! IF she really is gone she will probably haunt my asss till the end of time, I have been seeing a dark spirit in my new house the couple of weeks or so just thought it was probably there when I moved in!!! Anyway on with the show, let the wacco traveling Internet junkies continue with the show!!!! :2cents:

I'm the only official troll watcher, and all input is welcome!

MsTerry

11-24-2007, 09:40 PM

Mykil,

you know that Lulu was more than just a rubblerouser.
she used to say; if you don't shake the bushes, you don't get to see where the snakes are hiding. and boy did the snakes come out in droves when she exposed something, hypocritical or otherwise. They are still coming out, with the vultures, all the goody2shoes are trying to bite.
she said Mykil is the only one I can have fun WITH, the other ones don't even get it WHAT I am making fun OF.
she had a nickname for everyone
she called Clancy "Pussy" "that one who loves kitties, but can't get himself some real pussy" Willie was "the ersatz scientist", Barry "my avocado pal", MadMiles "the PrimaDonna", NT "Magic", Tinque "ma belle amie",
Dixon, she admired, ", Dixie is too smart for himself, he'll kill himself if I don't rattle his cage"
she was really looking forward meeting him and cashing his $10,000
but she would laugh so loud after reading some of your writings and even louder still when she would visualize you sitting there laughing your ass off while you were writing to her. there have been times I had to stop her, telling her 'you're gonna cough up your chemo" which made her laugh even more
Mykil you have been a source of great comfort to her, she called you 'the jewel" "the jewel who sells junk"
she was defiant till her last breath, never embracing death.but clinging to life and laughter.
out of 5000 people, only a handful understand what she was doing
I pity the fools
when you asked her half jokingly; Lulu can you fix me?
her simple reply was all that was needed to show you what she has to offer
I was going to send this to you privately, but Lulu didn't believe in that,
If you have something to say, say it out loud was her motto
Mykil, just watch out for the snakes, because they have to go somewhere.......

I for one am a spoiled fucking bastard, for I have never lost anything or anyone as of now in my entire life, excluding my dog that I loved and cherished about ten years ago. Little fuck decided to get hit by a car, I to this day can still not get a dog for I am not over it yet. All my grandparents were not close enough to me to really get uppity about, and I didn’t even go to their funerals, out of state in all. Now if LULU is really gone this will be the biggest loss in my entire life! If she is toying with us, I will be really upset, for I am taking this seriously and am still in mourning! The relationship we have had over the last year has been entertaining to say the least; she really got my sense of humor and I hers. It would be just like her to come back from the grave [vacation] and really lay into us all at once. But then again if she really is a goner, hell I am really at a loss of words!!! It really is not fair for her to just up and fucking die!!!!! I am sure it was very slow and painful but hey she could have warned the hell out of me and prepared me for her own fatality! I for one am not sure if I am more upset at her checking out like this or if I am still upset about not knowing for sure if she I, well you know, fucking dead!!!!!!! She never told me how her heath was, I have heard about it through the grapevine from time to time yet I rally never realized I would never hear from her sweet little asss again. All I can say for sure is I am upset she is gone, either being she has past on or have it be she us just playing with me I am still upset. At any concern I had to put in my two cents, let you all know where on this earth I am with this predicament and please continue on with out any more form me on this subject. For as you may understand I really am at a loss on this one and cant bare to be underestimate her potential as a friend the has kept me in laughter and stitches for every day that I was aware of her presence. If for some miracle she does come back and is alive I am going to track her assss down and put her over my knee and really give her a nice as warming!!!!! IF she really is gone she will probably haunt my asss till the end of time, I have been seeing a dark spirit in my new house the couple of weeks or so just thought it was probably there when I moved in!!! Anyway on with the show, let the wacco traveling Internet junkies continue with the show!!!! :2cents: