Course design--Wanna help?

[Willie Lumplump]

During a discussion of science, the occult, and paranormal phenomena (see the thread: Tolerance: Can there be too much? (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27501) ), I learned that many wacco members don't have a very good grasp of the aims and methods of science. This realization has inspired me to start composing an outline of a course that could be offered at the college level. How likely it is that I'd get a chance to teach such a course, I don't know, but I'd like to continue developing the outline over the next weeks or months.

Here's a part of what I have so far. Most of the points I'd put to students in an open-ended way to stimulate class discussion. I'd be grateful for any feedback from wacco members.

III. What constitutes evidence for a proposition?

A. Define "evidence." (A fact or observation that lends weight to a claim that a proposition is true.)

B. Proposition: All crows are black. Which of the following cases are evidence?

1. This bird is a crow and is black. (A single example of the generalization.)

2. This bird is a non-crow and is black. (Since we now see that it's possible for a bird to be black, it's easier to believe that crows might be black.)

3. This bird is black. (Proves that it's possible for a bird to be black, and this one might even be a crow.) If there are 10 spp. of crows and 3,500 spp. of birds, p that this bird is a crow is 1/350.

4. This bird is a non-crow and is not black. (Says nothing about crows.)

C. Proposition: I read tarot by tuning in to occult powers (although I may not know how I tune in). Evidence?

1. I've been able to tell people facts about themselves that I had no apparent way of knowing. Explanations (some mutually compatible):

a. I really am tuned in to occult powers.

b. I may be lying. (I didn't tell clients facts about themselves and I know it, or I may have told them facts that I obtained prior to the reading.)

c. My memory may be distorted. (I didn't tell people facts about themselves although I think I did.)

d. I may have been misled. (Clients told me that my reading was right even when it wasn't.)

e. My readings may have been vague enought to fit almost any clients.

f. I may have unconsciously inferred facts from clues inadvertently provided by clients.

2. I've done many readings, and almost all my clients have been very satistifed.

3. Scientists don't know everything.

4. Sometimes I make mistakes, but so do scientists.

[Zeno Swijtink]

During a discussion of science, the occult, and paranormal phenomena (see thread on tolerance), I learned that many wacco members don't have a very good grasp of the aims and methods of science. This realization has inspired me to start composing an outline of a course that could be offered at the college level. How likely it is that I'd get a chance to teach such a course, I don't know, but I'd like to continue developing the outline over the next weeks or months.

/snip/
4. This bird is a non-crow and is not black. (Says nothing about crows.)

/snip/

[/SIZE]

4. illustrates Hempel's Paradox of Confirmation:

Since "All crows are black" is logically equivalent to "All non-black things are not crows," a bird that is a non-crow and is not black appears to confirm that "All crows are black."

See https://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1747-9991.2005.00011.x

Conclusion? Neither doing good in Africa nor explaining the concept of evidence is for the faint-hearted.

[Willie Lumplump]

4. illustrates Hempel's Paradox of Confirmation:

Since "All crows are black" is logically equivalent to "All non-black things are not crows," a bird that is a non-crow and is not black appears to confirm that "All crows are black."

See https://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1747-9991.2005.00011.x

Conclusion? Neither doing good in Africa nor explaining the concept of evidence is for the faint-hearted.

Hey, great! Thanks! I'd forgotten all about that. Hempel's paradox. Wonderful!

[Dynamique]

This is not science. It is critical thinking (something that does seem to be in short supply in many demographics, including this one) and cursory statistical analysis.

Good idea, but "science" it is not!


During a discussion of science, the occult, and paranormal phenomena (see the thread: Tolerance: Can there be too much? (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27501) ), I learned that many wacco members don't have a very good grasp of the aims and methods of science....

[Willie Lumplump]

This is not science. It is critical thinking (something that does seem to be in short supply in many demographics, including this one) and cursory statistical analysis.

Good idea, but "science" it is not!

I'm not sure what you're proposing, that I teach a course on the aims and methods of science without mentioning critical thinking?

[Braggi]

I'm not sure what you're proposing, that I teach a course on the aims and methods of science without mentioning critical thinking?


Frankly, Willie, this whole thread looks like trolling to me.

-Jeff

[ThePhiant]

Frankly, Willie, this whole thread looks like trolling to me.

-Jeff
now that is critical thinking!

[ChristineL]

Frankly, Willie, this whole thread looks like trolling to me.

-Jeff

I agree with ThePhiant, that is critical thinking.

Christine

[Dynamique]

Perish the thought! Critical/analytical thinking (wasn't this formerly known as "rhetoric"??) is a valuable thing. But call it what it is.

Start with analytical thinking, then move into statistical analysis for those who do not like math/numbers (i.e., lies, damned lies, and statistics -- and how to discern which is which), then you can get into the scientific method and such.

What concerns me is that you are taking on a Liberal Arts AA degree here. Maybe some recommended reading or DVDs would be easier?


I'm not sure what you're proposing, that I teach a course on the aims and methods of science without mentioning critical thinking?

[Willie Lumplump]

Frankly, Willie, this whole thread looks like trolling to me.

-Jeff

Would you be reassured if I'd post more of the course outline that I've developed so far? Or give the name of a philosophy instructor who might be willing to work with me? Or post my status in the pool of adjunct professors(or whatever they call them) at Santa Rosa Community College?

[Willie Lumplump]

now that is critical thinking!

Now that is critical!

[Willie Lumplump]

Perish the thought! Critical/analytical thinking (wasn't this formerly known as "rhetoric"??) is a valuable thing. But call it what it is.

Start with analytical thinking, then move into statistical analysis for those who do not like math/numbers (i.e., lies, damned lies, and statistics -- and how to discern which is which), then you can get into the scientific method and such.

The course outline that I posted was only one piece of the whole course as I conceive it. What I have in mind is developing and, if possible, teaching a course on the aims and methods of science, and I'm sure I won't get the chance to teach two courses, one on critical thinking and the other on the aims and methods of science. Therefore, I'll have to subsume the former under the latter. And that seems quite natural to me because no realistic course on the aims and methods of science can ignore the question of critical thinking. The entire scientific establishment is based on critical thinking. The methods of experimental science, which is the occupation of more than 99% of all scientists, are a codification and standardization of the procedures of critical thinking.


What concerns me is that you are taking on a Liberal Arts AA degree here. Maybe some recommended reading or DVDs would be easier?

I don't plan on giving stratospheric lectures to a bunch of people just out of high school. My plan is to develop the whole course around the idea of giving students the chance to practice critical thinking right there in the classroom. One student can comment on another's reasoning process, and both can learn. Students can gather in groups to work on problems and report out of their groups so that one group can compare its ideas with another. I can be there as a resource person to guide (but not direct) all these interactions. This is what teaching and learning should be. There is no way you can get the same effect by reading books and watching DVD's.

[Willie Lumplump]

I agree with ThePhiant, that is critical thinking.

Christine

Are you feeling picked on? I invite you to set aside that feeling, and I challenge you to exercise your own critical thinking skills by criticizing the (partial) outline that I posted to begin this thread. Or you can just echo ThePhiant's sound bites, if that makes you feel better.

[mykil]

Hey there Willie; I love the idea of you teaching anything, this is a wonderful world and time we live in, now if only people could see past their own nose, including yours. So if you do decide to teach us all something, I would like to see a disclaimer and the top of each lesson with the statement “THIS IS ONLY ONE MAN’S OPINION” Cause you do know that there are many variables in our universe, many crow’s, many thought patterns besides yours? I learn from you everyday believe it or not, I learn from everyone, now even if I learn you are a stubborn ole soul with very shallow expectations of our own true world, I have still learned. You are more than bright, you are more than a step ahead of most, yet you are just stuck in this rut of your true knowledge, you only participate in things you feel comfortable in knowing the outcome, I think you are scared! I have had many true teachers in my own time, learned allot, when I look back I see how shallow they were and I wish they had come with disclaimers with them saying that exact phrase before I even sat in their class. I teach something to someone everyday also and believe it or not I feel the same about my teachings as I have just wrote to you, there is a right way, a wrong way, and your way of course! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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The thing I try to teach people the most, and you can take this anyway you wish, is this; I am shallow, I practice being shallow, I don’t want to be deep. I refuse to go there. Everyone is so caught up on being sooo fucking deep! They get so deep in one thought pattern that they are usually are on the verge of drowning. I prefer to come up to the shallows and look around, see the other pools around my own true environment. If I like one of those pools better, I can make a leap, a leap of faith, a leap of not even caring, I know I can alwayz come back to that particular pool, so why even look back. I will never burn a bridge! I want to explore those other pools. If I choose to go deep In that pool, I will never forget to come up for air, I will never forget there are other pools to swim, play in dive deep, and downright get right into the thick of things. I want to be able to jump right on out of it if appears to be to too dangerous, to plain, to dirty of the water, or polluted by others own inferior DNA, too… The point I alwayz emphasize on is that there are these other pools and other aspects of the true world around us, not just the one pool you are in now! Willie’s pool is nice to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there! Who in their right mind would, alwayz having to put up with someone that has to be right, even twenty five years latter still dwelling on a lost love over certain aspects having to do with the spirituality of man kind. Who’s idea was it to separate I still would like to know? Was it yours because she was a believer? Or was it hers cause you were not a believer? And whom the fuck cares anyway? These ghosts form the past haunt you and are in your pool circling your every move, your every thought, your everyday life. Come up for air, look around and make a leap, make a leap of whom the fuck cares! Get over your bad self and humble your needs in your own mind, make amends to your true self and you will evolve to become one hell of a real guru. Without your own true spirituality, your own background, your own true soul you will alwayz just be Willie and never even be taken seriously. In other words you can be the smartest book smart person known to man kind, yet still lacking certain aspects of the true you! hmmm Willie the Guru I like that! In one Man’s Opinion of course!<o:p></o:p>

[Willie Lumplump]

So if you do decide to teach us all something, I would like to see a disclaimer and the top of each lesson with the statement “THIS IS ONLY ONE MAN’S OPINION”

If I felt that the only thing I had to offer was my own opinion, I'd have no reason to teach the course. Like the rest of the world scientific community, I'm the inheritor of 500 years of intellectual development and tradition. In a democracy, all citizens need to know what this inheritance is so that they can make responsible decisions that may well determine the fate of the planet.
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If I like one of those pools better, I can make a leap, a leap of faith, a leap of not even caring

I go to different pools too, when the search for truth leads me there. Sometimes I like a new pool, and sometimes I don't, but as long as I get there honestly, in the long run it doesn't matter.


Who’s idea was it to separate I still would like to know? Was it yours because she was a believer? Or was it hers cause you were not a believer? And whom the fuck cares anyway?

As I said before, my wife and I were pulled apart by circumstances beyond our control. For you to write so crassly about someone's personal tragedy tells me that you and ThePhiant have much in common. I didn't realize that until just now, and it makes me a little sad.

[Willie Lumplump]

I agree with ThePhiant, that is critical thinking.

Christine

I tell you what, Christine, if I do get a chance to teach this course, I'd like to invite you to come and give a reading to a student volunteer. I'll pay you out of my own pocket for your reading, your transportation, and your travel time. And if you want to stay after the reading and answer students' questions, I'll pay you any reasonable additional fee that you might name. No tricks. I'll give you a proper, respectful introduction: "We're fortunate to have with us this evening Ms. Christine ____ who is going to demonstrate an actual tarot reading."

What do you say?

[ThePhiant]

make you sure you tell people that you always have to have the last word.
and that you are right of course


Now that is critical!

[ThePhiant]

For you to write so crassly about someone's personal tragedy tells me that you and ThePhiant have much in common. I didn't realize that until just now, and it makes me a little sad.

me and Mykil??????
now that is a compliment

[ThePhiant]

As I said before, my wife and I were pulled apart by circumstances beyond our control.

what does it mean Willie?????????? "by circumstances beyond our control."
a hurricane? war? terrorist attack? malaria? or is this just another manipulation? or maybe you are in denial about what really happened?
wanna talk about it?

[Braggi]

what does it mean Willie??????????

wanna talk about it?



Probably not to you. Probably not to this list.

Give him a break.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Would you be reassured if I'd post more of the course outline that I've developed so far?


Willie, I don't doubt your qualifications but based on that post I doubt your seriousness. If the rest of the "outline" looks anything like the opening post in this thread ... well, I wouldn't want to take the course. Please accept that as serious feedback.

That post looks like your are crossing your arms and baiting others to jump to the defense. That's the definition of trolling. It just looks mean spirited to me.

Maybe I was too critical while I read it. I'll read it again. But it looked like you just set up parameters for an argument.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

That's an impressive offer.

-Jeff


I tell you what, Christine, if I do get a chance to teach this course, I'd like to invite you to come and give a reading to a student volunteer. I'll pay you out of my own pocket for your reading, your transportation, and your travel time. And if you want to stay after the reading and answer students' questions, I'll pay you any reasonable additional fee that you might name. No tricks. I'll give you a proper, respectful introduction: "We're fortunate to have with us this evening Ms. Christine ____ who is going to demonstrate an actual tarot reading."

What do you say?

[Braggi]

C. Proposition: I read tarot by tuning in to occult powers (although I may not know how I tune in). Evidence?




Willie, I can give you a reading with or without tarot cards. Either way, I'll tune into YOU. Whether I tune into occult powers or not is beside the point.

I doubt most tarot readers would claim occult powers. You make a leap here that is unnecessary.

How about: I do tarot readings for people. During the process of the reading I may help the person focus awareness on important facets of their lives they may have been ignoring. For that they are grateful.

Bottom line: I think your tarot question doesn't fit well with your course outline.

If I was your professor I'd give you another chance.

-Jeff

[ThePhiant]

Probably not to you. Probably not to this list.

Give him a break.

-Jeff
Jeff
I can come up with a lot of stuff that I don't want to talk about, but have you noticed that i don't bring it up in public or allude to it with vagueness?

[ThePhiant]

That's an impressive offer.

-Jeff
come on now, Jeff,
it's a set up
why doesn't he take a reading first himself. or more than one. that way he has something to talk about

[ThePhiant]

if you were the teacher I would come!


Willie, I can give you a reading with or without tarot cards. Either way, I'll tune into YOU. Whether I tune into occult powers or not is beside the point.

I doubt most tarot readers would claim occult powers. You make a leap here that is unnecessary.

How about: I do tarot readings for people. During the process of the reading I may help the person focus awareness on important facets of their lives they may have been ignoring. For that they are grateful.

Bottom line: I think your tarot question doesn't fit well with your course outline.

If I was your professor I'd give you another chance.

-Jeff

[Willie Lumplump]

make you sure you tell people that you always have to have the last word.
and that you are right of course

"I always have the last word, and I'm right of course."

[Willie Lumplump]

me and Mykil??????
now that is a compliment

I'd rather call it a complement.

[Willie Lumplump]

Probably not to you. Probably not to this list.

Give him a break.

-Jeff

Yeah, give him a break.

[Willie Lumplump]

Willie, I can give you a reading with or without tarot cards. Either way, I'll tune into YOU. Whether I tune into occult powers or not is beside the point.

I doubt most tarot readers would claim occult powers. You make a leap here that is unnecessary.

How about: I do tarot readings for people. During the process of the reading I may help the person focus awareness on important facets of their lives they may have been ignoring. For that they are grateful.

Bottom line: I think your tarot question doesn't fit well with your course outline.

If I was your professor I'd give you another chance.

-Jeff

It's my understanding that tarot is widely promoted as an occult art, and that's why I chose it. A tarot practitioner who made no occult claims would have no relevance to the subject of the course. If a tarot reader claims merely that he uses the cards to increase his concentration or relax his mind or put him in closer touch with his own subconscious, I see nothing objectionable. Sometimes I have the same goals, although I've never thought of using cards for that purpose.

[Willie Lumplump]

come on now, Jeff,
it's a set up
why doesn't he take a reading first himself. or more than one. that way he has something to talk about

The point of the course isn't to listen to my own voice. The point is to get the students involved to the point where THEY talk. THEY are the ones who need something to talk about, so THEY are the ones who need to undergo, or at least witness, a tarot reading. As long as students' attention is focused on me, they aren't thinking for themselves, and if they aren't thinking for themselves, they aren't achieving the goals of the course.

[Willie Lumplump]

Willie, I don't doubt your qualifications but based on that post I doubt your seriousness. If the rest of the "outline" looks anything like the opening post in this thread ... well, I wouldn't want to take the course. Please accept that as serious feedback.

That post looks like your are crossing your arms and baiting others to jump to the defense. That's the definition of trolling. It just looks mean spirited to me.

Maybe I was too critical while I read it. I'll read it again. But it looked like you just set up parameters for an argument.

-Jeff

The main criticism that I've received is that I'm trolling, a criticism that focuses on my motivations. But even if I have the very worst of motivations, the course outline is still open for criticism. A few participants here have responded directly to the outline itself, and I'm afraid that at times I've appeared ungrateful for their comments. If so, and if it's not too late, I'd like to say "thank you." Maybe I should go back to the original messages and express appreciation for each one. That's probably the best idea.

In case you're interested, here's another part of the tentative course outline:

II. What kinds of propositions fall within the realm of science? (Must be verifiable.)
A. The temperature of the earth will increase by at least 3.5 degrees over the next century. (But how can a prediction be considered as verified before the event even happens?)
B. UFO's have landed on this planet.
C. UFO's have not landed on this planet.
D. The bacterial flagellum has irreducible complexity and therefore must be an example of Intelligent Design.

[mykil]

The relationship you had with your wife is important Willie.
This is where it all stated. The tolerance post was a direct connection to your soul. You would have never posted that post or even this one if it didn’t start with that. This is important to me to study the real you, I was weary of putting that part in the post to begin with, but I still want to know those small details of your beginning, and see where exactly it went wrong. I would like for you to answer that question. People just didn’t pull you two apart, it was one of you that made the final decision, I AM extremely curious with one gave? This is 25 years later and it is still eating at you. You are an atheist and her family was seriously religious. Was she? She was not willing to leave her family? Was it a money issue that made the final decision? That would make the only sense thus far in the equation! This has nothing to do with you feeling toward your ex wife Willie, this has only to do with your mental stability as our teacher. I want to know when and where you became so dam closed as a human being, not one to even believe in ghost when you where a child? Did you ever even think there might be a ghost in the closet till you where ten, or where you just born with this great insight and new right from the get that all the stories were fabricated? Did you argue with her family at thanksgiving about the bible? Is there enough left on the old noggin to write book about the whole affair?
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Willie, I am not what so ever trying to give you a hard time here, but I really do want to hear your story the way it went down. I feel you started to open up toward this a while back, this does not bother me to talk about myself or my past or even my now, I imagine you might feel a little strange opening up in the middle of a forum, but what the hell, what else do you have to do with your free and superior intellect? I imaging at this point everyone is curious about this, not just me, even Braggi might want to know if her doesn’t get in trouble for being curious!
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Can we add dousing to the equation? You know like dousing for water, water witching as it used to be called? Do you believe in such a thing? And if you do, do you believe they are taking it further, dousing with maps and pendulums?

[ChristineL]

Not picked on, baited.

I may not be as knowledgable, or trained, as you are in the strictly scientific method you favor, but do engage in critical thinking. I read a lot, observe a lot, and don't necessarily decide to agree with so called scientifically proven
theories and conclusions. They do change from year to year. First eggs are proven to be cholesterol laden and all but poisonous, then it's ok to eat 4 a week. First coffee is proven to be bad for you, then it turns out it contains antioxidants. First a medication controls some ailment, then it's proven to be more dangerous than the ailment it's treating. I don't care if the body mass index is supposed to indicate whether you're overweight or not, my observation is that if I my body mass index was what it's supposed to be, I would be anorexic; I lift weights. I started up again after several years of not working out I've so far lost all of 12 pounds and 3 clothing sizes. I'm sure ADD was proven, but I know that my ex's son who was diagnosed with it did not need medication. He had a very short attention span, was prone to fits of anger and hyper-activity. I observed that when he ingested any food containing red dye, a fit of uncontrollable hyper-activity followed. I found that if I fed him foods containing no dyes, caffein, or corn syrup in any form, his attention span increased and he had no "fits". Today, he's on ritalin. I have observed that blood pressure medications have side effects I don't appreciate. In spite of all the studies indicating that herbal medications don't really work, both my mother and I take herbals that have proven, for us, to be as effective with no side effects. My mom found that after several years on blood pressure medication, she was scared by the side effects she was experiencing and after doing some research switched to an herbal. She checked her blood pressure three times daily for three months, then once a week, and now monthly. It's now five years on herbals and her blood pressure has not at all increased from the medicated level. When mine started to be border line high, I went to the herbals. All these things are "anecdotal", but as I've said before, I use what works. I look at alternate theories that may not have been proven by your "scientific protocal" requirements, and if there's enough accumulated anecdotal data, I'll look at it and possibly try it.

I honestly cannot tell you how I get the information and insights I get. Psychic comes closest to defining it. I do know I don't research information on people ahead of time. Maybe I am so super-obversant that I can read really subtle hints in body language. That, however, would not explain how I told a woman in a phone reading that she was not pregnant but needed to see her doctor as there was something very seriously wrong and she would end up hospitalized for three days, but would be ok. She called me a month or two later to thank me and let me know she had gone to her doctor, has spent three days in the hospital and was told by her doctor if she'd waited 24 more hours she would have died. It does not explain the young man whose hand I read and told he must be sure to fasten his seat belt and drive super-defensively. His hands told me death by head injury in his twenties. I found out two years later he died going through the wind shield of his car when hit by a drunk driver. Yes Willie, all anecdotal. I've seen things like that, without cards or hands, ever since I can remember...not scientifically proven, but having gotten this kind of feed-back and "how the hell did you know that"s all my life, I know what I do.

I started my studies in Tarot, Numerology and Palmistry in the hopes of gaining some control over this ability and channeling it to some positive use. Believe me, it's not a whole heck of a lot fun knowing when loved ones are going to die (when there's nothing wrong with them) and feeling what's behind the public personae people present to the world. I initially thought these disciplines could not possibly prove accurate. I started out giving readings at no charge until I had received enough feed-back that I was usually accurate. Near as I can tell from the overall feed-back I have received over the years, my accuracy runs around 85% to 90%. All anecdotal, I know. Yes, spiritual studies came along with this...I went from a lapsed Catholic to what I can best describe as a JudeoChristian Spiritualist.
Strangely enough, I have found over the years that Palmistry and Numerology are pretty darn accurate independently of my abilities. Also anecdotal, but again...it I find it works...I use it. These studies did end up enabling me to have some control over the ability.

Whether it can be proven through your scientific protocal or not, I help people through what I do. It's not what I charge that will make me rich as I try to keep my rates in a range that is accessible to almost everyone. As I usually describe it, I give psychically inspired practical advice. If someone really feels my reading did not "speak" to them, I waive the charge. I still get to make most of my living helping people and that is rewarding to me.

I don't care whether or not you believe me or whether or not I can meet your scientific criteria. My only objection to your posts is the attitude of superiority, hostility and arrogance that comes across; whether or not it's what you intend to convey. I've frankly learned more from far less educated people than you than I have from my college professors. The uneducated farmers in my Grandmother's home town predicted the weather far better than today's modern scientifically tested equipment for example. My ex-husband (whose learning disability had prevented his ability to get an education), through listening to all points of view, watching the news daily as well as all forms of educational television engaged in better critical thinking than most college graduates I've known.

If baiting and berating me and people like me makes you feel better, go for it...


Are you feeling picked on? I invite you to set aside that feeling, and I challenge you to exercise your own critical thinking skills by criticizing the (partial) outline that I posted to begin this thread. Or you can just echo ThePhiant's sound bites, if that makes you feel better.

[ChristineL]

Make it Palmistry or Numerology and I accept. Tarot readings too easily go into areas that can prove embarrassing to the person being read and I end up holding back in front of an audience. I have given Palmistry demonstrations in college class rooms before and it's easier to give lots of information without getting into areas people would rather keep to themselves. Yes, I always stay around for questions afterwards.


I tell you what, Christine, if I do get a chance to teach this course, I'd like to invite you to come and give a reading to a student volunteer. I'll pay you out of my own pocket for your reading, your transportation, and your travel time. And if you want to stay after the reading and answer students' questions, I'll pay you any reasonable additional fee that you might name. No tricks. I'll give you a proper, respectful introduction: "We're fortunate to have with us this evening Ms. Christine ____ who is going to demonstrate an actual tarot reading."

What do you say?

[ChristineL]

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If I felt that the only thing I had to offer was my own opinion, I'd have no reason to teach the course. Like the rest of the world scientific community, I'm the inheritor of 500 years of intellectual development and tradition. In a democracy, all citizens need to know what this inheritance is so that they can make responsible decisions that may well determine the fate of the planet.
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I go to different pools too, when the search for truth leads me there. Sometimes I like a new pool, and sometimes I don't, but as long as I get there honestly, in the long run it doesn't matter.



As I said before, my wife and I were pulled apart by circumstances beyond our control. For you to write so crassly about someone's personal tragedy tells me that you and ThePhiant have much in common. I didn't realize that until just now, and it makes me a little sad.


Willie, yes it's wrong to be so crass about someone's personal tragedy. I personally, would not and did not go there. However your continued baiting and insults...like picking on people's writing styles or spelling or grammar is wrong. Sooner or later, someone is going to react by getting very personal. You don't know the reasons they write the way they do; Maybe they just write like that for effect, maybe it's due to a learning disability like dyslexia or just maybe they just did not have the educational opportunities you had and therefore don't come across with the eloquence you feel you do. Maybe English is their second language. Lastly...maybe just maybe... it's just your personal opionion that it's not verbal communication, I have no troubling seeing it that way. Your judgement that people who don't think like you are automatically to be discounted is not too pretty either. Had it not been for math and the physical sciences, my grade point average in college would have been a 4.0. History, Literature, English, Sociology and psychology required study, but came much easier to me. No matter how much I studied, mathematics and the physical sciences were my downfall. Whether you agree or not, that does not make me less intelligent, my mind works differently. None of this makes me any less capable of critical thinking, even if I don't do it using your "scientific protocol".

All this dwelling on Lulu's gender I personally don't find very respectful either. In my neck of the redwoods however people identify themselves is how we refer to them, no matter what their original, or existing, bits and pieces may indicate. Lulu identifies herself as female, whether she actually is or not, that's her identity here.

[ThePhiant]

WOOOOOW
Mykil when did you stop being so shallow?
this is the most genuine and articulate piece I have seen here in a long time!
maybe Willie thinks you are a woman, since he thinks I am a man. LOL


The relationship you had with your wife is important Willie.
This is where it all stated. ...

[ThePhiant]

reading the different responses, I find that especially Christine and Mykil write with their soul and use their heart to guide them.
those are the kind of teachers I am looking for!


Not picked on, baited. ...

[Willie Lumplump]

The relationship you had with your wife is important Willie.
This is where it all stated. The tolerance post was a direct connection to your soul. You would have never posted that post or even this one if it didn’t start with that. This is important to me to study the real you, I was weary of putting that part in the post to begin with, but I still want to know those small details of your beginning, and see where exactly it went wrong. I would like for you to answer that question. People just didn’t pull you two apart, it was one of you that made the final decision, I AM extremely curious with one gave? This is 25 years later and it is still eating at you. You are an atheist and her family was seriously religious. Was she? She was not willing to leave her family? Was it a money issue that made the final decision? That would make the only sense thus far in the equation! This has nothing to do with you feeling toward your ex wife Willie, this has only to do with your mental stability as our teacher. I want to know when and where you became so dam closed as a human being, not one to even believe in ghost when you where a child? Did you ever even think there might be a ghost in the closet till you where ten, or where you just born with this great insight and new right from the get that all the stories were fabricated? Did you argue with her family at thanksgiving about the bible? Is there enough left on the old noggin to write book about the whole affair?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Willie, I am not what so ever trying to give you a hard time here, but I really do want to hear your story the way it went down. I feel you started to open up toward this a while back, this does not bother me to talk about myself or my past or even my now, I imagine you might feel a little strange opening up in the middle of a forum, but what the hell, what else do you have to do with your free and superior intellect? I imaging at this point everyone is curious about this, not just me, even Braggi might want to know if her doesn’t get in trouble for being curious!
<o:p></o:p>
Can we add dousing to the equation? You know like dousing for water, water witching as it used to be called? Do you believe in such a thing? And if you do, do you believe they are taking it further, dousing with maps and pendulums?

Alright. When I was a very young man, I made a very bad career choice. I
decided to enter a career that required a long period of educational preparation but offered very little choice in where eventually to live. By the time I began to wake up to the probable consequences of this choice to my marriage, I was already so far along in my degree program that it made no sense to back out. I got my degree at the peak of a recession when jobs in my field were even more scarce than usual--almost nonexistent in fact. Because of the severe recession and because I was overeducated, I was unable to find work in a different field that would pay enough to rescue me from my financial situation, which by then had become desperate. My wife had finished her degree years before and found a responsible job in the mental health field in San Francisco. Her career, friends, family, and home were all in the Bay Area. After almost a year, I finally got one job offer--in Africa. At that point I really had no choice. I had to take the job. And my marriage didn't survive.

[Willie Lumplump]

Make it Palmistry or Numerology and I accept. Tarot readings too easily go into areas that can prove embarrassing to the person being read and I end up holding back in front of an audience. I have given Palmistry demonstrations in college class rooms before and it's easier to give lots of information without getting into areas people would rather keep to themselves. Yes, I always stay around for questions afterwards.

Wonderful! Thank you. If I manage to offer the course, I'll contact you.

[ThePhiant]

thanks for letting the cat out of the bag
I could dissect this sincerely
but I'll wait for Jeff to tell you the truth


Alright. When I was a very young man, I made a very bad career choice. I
decided to enter a career that required a long period of educational preparation but offered very little choice in where eventually to live. By the time I began to wake up to the probable consequences of this choice to my marriage, I was already so far along in my degree program that it made no sense to back out. I got my degree at the peak of a recession when jobs in my field were even more scarce than usual--almost nonexistent in fact. Because of the severe recession and because I was overeducated, I was unable to find work in a different field that would pay enough to rescue me from my financial situation, which by then had become desperate. My wife had finished her degree years before and found a responsible job in the mental health field in San Francisco. Her career, friends, family, and home were all in the Bay Area. After almost a year, I finally got one job offer--in Africa. At that point I really had no choice. I had to take the job. And my marriage didn't survive.

[Willie Lumplump]

I read a lot, observe a lot, and don't necessarily decide to agree with so called scientifically proven
theories and conclusions. They do change from year to year.

Good point! A course on the aims and methods of science should deal with this question.


I observed that when he ingested any food containing red dye, a fit of uncontrollable hyper-activity followed. I found that if I fed him foods containing no dyes, caffein, or corn syrup in any form, his attention span increased and he had no "fits".

The red 40 situation is an example of a regulatory agency, the FDA, being in bed with the industry they're suppose to regulate. This stuff is poisonous to about 20% of the population, including me. Caffeine should come with a warning label. Among other problems, it has a terrible, aggravating effect on depression. I'd be that any study of the problem would reveal that many people die each year from this very cause.


In spite of all the studies indicating that herbal medications don't really work

Many modern drugs were first discovered in herbal remedies, so it's not fair to say that studies indicate that they don't work.


I honestly cannot tell you how I get the information and insights I get. Psychic comes closest to defining it.

Well, that's really all I wanted to know when I posed the question, whether or not you consider yourself psychic.


My only objection to your posts is the attitude of superiority, hostility and arrogance that comes across; whether or not it's what you intend to convey.

If done quite a bit of thinking about this. I have enormous respect for people in the health professions, including mental health. They generally aren't paid well (with notable exceptions), their jobs are often extremely demanding--even exhausting--and before they can enter the profession they must go school for years which itself often requires great sacrifices both financially and emotionally. And then here comes along a "psychic reader" with a pack of tarot cards who sets up shop and says, "I'm open for business." I admit, it rubs me the wrong way.

[Willie Lumplump]

However your continued baiting and insults...like picking on people's writing styles or spelling or grammar is wrong. Sooner or later, someone is going to react by getting very personal.

As near as I can remember, I've never just attacked anybody out of the blue for grammatical mistakes. If somebody's writing is unclear, perhaps because of grammatical errors, I might point that out so that they can make clear what they really mean. But if they then go on to defend their mistakes, saying, "It doesn't matter," I don't mind telling them that it does matter. A misplaced comma or a misused quotation mark can completely change the meaning of a whole sentence. I always welcome critical comments about my writing because it gives me a chance to learn. (I've made four grammatical mistakes in this paragraph. Can you spot them?)


All this dwelling on Lulu's gender I personally don't find very respectful either. In my neck of the redwoods however people identify themselves is how we refer to them, no matter what their original, or existing, bits and pieces may indicate. Lulu identifies herself as female, whether she actually is or not, that's her identity here.

ThePhiant often entertains himself by standing at the sidelines, ridiculing people with catcalls and jeers, and making truly nasty remarks, such as criticisms of their physical appearance. During the time that I've been needling him, he's focused his ridicule on me and left other people alone. I've been performing a public service. If ThePhiant will agree to confine his catcalls and jeers to me and leave other people alone, I'll quit needling him. What could be fairer than that?

[Willie Lumplump]

thanks for letting the cat out of the bag
I could dissect this sincerely
but I'll wait for Jeff to tell you the truth

The vultures are circling.

[ChristineL]

...

If done quite a bit of thinking about this. I have enormous respect for people in the health professions, including mental health. They generally aren't paid well (with notable exceptions), their jobs are often extremely demanding--even exhausting--and before they can enter the profession they must go school for years which itself often requires great sacrifices both financially and emotionally. And then here comes along a "psychic reader" with a pack of tarot cards who sets up shop and says, "I'm open for business." I admit, it rubs me the wrong way.

I have also stated in previous posts that I do suggest therapy to some people I read as I can only give them so much insight and some need more help than I am qualified to give them. I've also been known to suggest NA, AA, ACOA, and support groups of all kinds. Believe it or not, there are therapists, doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists amongst my repeat clients. I've been in therapy myself and don't undervalue the profession. As medical insurance does not cover a whole lot in terms of therapy, some people really cannot afford it. Sometimes, it's people like me who at least prevent them from totally falling apart.

[Willie Lumplump]

I have also stated in previous posts that I do suggest therapy to some people I read as I can only give them so much insight and some need more help than I am qualified to give them. I've also been known to suggest NA, AA, ACOA, and support groups of all kinds. Believe it or not, there are therapists, doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists amongst my repeat clients. I've been in therapy myself and don't undervalue the profession. As medical insurance does not cover a whole lot in terms of therapy, some people really cannot afford it. Sometimes, it's people like me who at least prevent them from totally falling apart.

From this I'd conclude that you're an exceptionally empathetic person, except that you aready said that your clients don't talk to you, you talk to them, and it would be hard to empathize with a person whom you don't listen to.

[ChristineL]

From this I'd conclude that you're an exceptionally empathetic person, except that you aready said that your clients don't talk to you, you talk to them, and it would be hard to empathize with a person whom you don't listen to.

I should have been clearer. I do most of the talking and stop people from talking to me before I start the reading. Many want to talk a bit after I've given the original insights, I let them. I am empathic. I see and feel things before they tell me anything so I empathize before I listen. It took me a long time to learn to feel for people and not with them.

[mykil]

Just out of mild curiosity Christine, what is my favorite color? And am I really "a really cute guy"?



I should have been clearer. I do most of the talking and stop people from talking to me before I start the reading. Many want to talk a bit after I've given the original insights, I let them. I am empathic. I see and feel things before they tell me anything so I empathize before I listen. It took me a long time to learn to feel for people and not with them.

[ChristineL]

Just out of mild curiosity Christine, what is my favorite color? And am I really "a really cute guy"?

As to whether or not you're cute...your picture is posted in your profile...so that would be cheating, wouldn't it? Cuteness and beauty are subjective anyway. So, do I think you're cute???Actually, yes you are kind of cute...

As to your favorite color, not exactly the kind of information I look for. I will also be the first to admit I can't do readings over the computer. I need some kind of connection, even if it's only voice...

[Braggi]

thanks for letting the cat out of the bag
I could dissect this sincerely
but I'll wait for Jeff to tell you the truth


The Truth? (With a capital "T")

Oh, that's funny. That's what I have? I have to work that into a moniker. A title under my Waccobb handle.

Braggi
Harbinger of Truth

Has a nice ring to it, but perhaps I can do better. Any suggestions?

(Oh, gosh! This is just sooooooooo off topic!)

-Jeff

PS. To ThePhiant: I have no idea what you expect me to say.

[ThePhiant]

PS. To ThePhiant: I have no idea what you expect me to say.


just that his explanation does not qualify as something "out of his control"

[ThePhiant]

oh, Christine, you have no idea what you have unleashed in that beast now!


As to whether or not you're cute...your picture is posted in your profile...so that would be cheating, wouldn't it? Cuteness and beauty are subjective anyway. So, do I think you're cute???Actually, yes you are kind of cute...

As to your favorite color, not exactly the kind of information I look for. I will also be the first to admit I can't do readings over the computer. I need some kind of connection, even if it's only voice...

[Willie Lumplump]

I should have been clearer. I do most of the talking and stop people from talking to me before I start the reading. Many want to talk a bit after I've given the original insights, I let them. I am empathic. I see and feel things before they tell me anything so I empathize before I listen. It took me a long time to learn to feel for people and not with them.

I had a hunch that's what was happening. Your writing suggests to me that you are indeed unusually sensitive to other people's feelings.

[mykil]

I was just toying with you their Christine, I actually new your answer before you even thought it, right down the part that you kinda thought I might be cute! It was just a little test of your complete satiability as a physic, not that you need one, just wanted to be a tab bit judgmental for the whole. I can feel you from here.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I have alwayz been particular shellfish with my abilities, I never even considered sharing them with anyone. As far as I was concerned they were mine and anyone that needed to know something could use their own. I grew up in a small world. It really never even dawned on me that not everyone had these connections with their own surroundings. When I was a boy running in the hills around these parts, [pre cable] I had a few friends, we never spoke, hardly ever. I grew up thinking this was just normal and never even speculated what it would be like to have a conversation with someone. We just new what one another were thinking, what way to go, we knew where we were going, we just knew. IF by chance we got off course the only thing that would be said would be something like I don’t know I was following you!
Later in life as a teen, I used this for more great reasons; I have never had a speeding ticket! Never had a moving violation, other than a seat belt ticket or a registration ticket. And believe me I still drive fast! My friend used to be amazed at this ability, cruising down the road at twenty or even thirty miles above the speed limit and slow way down all of a sudden and there he would be just cruise on past and right back up to speed. Kind of like my own built in radar gun! LOL!
<o:p></o:p>
Really strange things happen to me in the capacity, I will give you my latest that I am still laughing about, I have literally have thousands. I was at the bank getting ready to take some money out of the machine, I wanted four hundred. I looked at the machine and it winked at me, literally winked, I walked up, looked at the machine, the lights went off and on in a fraction of a second, I thought to my self “this machine is going to try and rip me off” I laughed at my own thought, put the card in, some of the money came out crooked, and it shorted me sixty bucks. I was laughing so hard. I walked in the bank at told the lovely woman about it and went out to tell another not to use it but she already had and it worked fine for her. I am still laughing about this affair and think that it was just a little cosmic blip. I got ht money back, but I really don’t even think I would have counted it if the machine had not winked at me. My new favorite saying is” My guardian angels can beat up your guardian angels”! I thought that one up sometime last year; it would make a great bumper sticker!
<o:p></o:p>
If I wanted to learn from someone it would be you Christine, I would love to hear how you go about making any sense of you sensitivity it this field. I never had tried to put anything into words; I just use the intuition and keep moving, letting it flow and not worrying about how to put it into a picture or even thought! I understand that this is difficult and allot of physics have problems in trying to decipher these. I myself don’t think I could. Mine is mine and it serves me well. In order to actually use it for someone else’s benefit, you need to be able to explain and understand more about what you are feeling, slow down and think about what you are experiencing, this is not going to work for me, I can’t even meditate yet! I am working on this part of my life and really want to be able to tune out and get into the meditative state of mind. The mind moves so fast, and I can imagine allot of people can’t keep up, I truly believe everyone has these capabilities, they just are focusing on them and they truly just pass them by. Sometimes mine are a little more intense than other times. I can remember a few years back, I was taking my lovely children to Karate, I had a hard day at work and dropped them off, went to get a beer and a sandwich. I was eating my sandwich in my car and reached for my beer to crack. A voice in my mind, plain as day told me” you can’t open that there is a cop behind you”. I was sort of in shock, I looked in my mirror and there was a sheriff standing right behind my car talking to someone. I skipped the beer! I enjoy my guardian angles way beyond the norm and really don’t think I could do without them at this point in my life. I am way to acclimated to their presence and am really used to having them around!
<o:p></o:p>
In order for anyone to prove to me that these powers of observation don’t really exist, this in itself is going to take a miracle. When someone figures out how it works and can explain it in a scientific presence, then I might evolve to understand there might not be guardian angels. Hell I am not sure I believe in guardian angels, but tell this time, it is set forth in my mind that not only that there are these physic phononanums, but for anyone to say they don’t exist is just plain naive, shallow and really beyond the scope of trying to be a true scientist. Once these capabilities are really understood and you get in down to a scientific equation, then we won’t have to call them cult activities, or even people trying to scam people for their own personal gain. I am quite sure this happens but I don’t want to have to convince people that they do exist, for I really don’t care. At this point it is all about you proving there is certain things that can exist right along side and people do live with these certain powers of observation, and figuring out how they are working in our environmental atmosphere. Only a closed mind, in a deep pool, closed off to all other aspects of ones own little world, lonely and with out real communication to ones true world can be this independent and have thoughts and expectations that involve only one self. The need to be right and full of true pride blinds many. The need to be cherished and loved can sometimes be bad on the other scope, this is where people can take advantage of the situation and really give this process a bad feeling and leave a bad taste in ones mouth.
<o:p></o:p>
I think that there has to be true tolerance in order to evolve. I believe each has the right to choose; each has the right to feel think and believe whatever one wants. I myself am a true believer, if you wish to mock me by all means please do, just remember I can mock you back for being one of those non-believers!
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

[ChristineL]

I had a hunch that's what was happening. Your writing suggests to me that you are indeed unusually sensitive to other people's feelings.

Thank you. I do want to be very clear...I don't let them talk first...If they do, and some do no matter how many times I tell them not to, I start with the assumption that their perceptions are completely off the mark...they often are. I do also admit I have some repeat clients that need to talk...they have no family and possibly no friends and are trying to make changes in their lives with no one to give them any feed-back or encouragement. I have one client that grew up in a home so abusive, few would believe what she went through. She has been through extensive therapy and although at this point relatively emotionally healthy, she struggles with what are normal emotional reactions. For example, if something makes her sad, she's afraid she may be going into deep depression. My only job with her is to give her feed-back on what she's going through and assuring her she's not going back into the abyss. Sometimes, she asks me how I would react to certain situations, which helps her gauge if she's experiencing something she needs to go back to her therapist with. By the way, the therapist encouraged her to talk with me. Again, if it works...and it does for her...I use it. I also happen to like and respect this lady as I've seldom seen anyone so determined to become emotionally healthy. I've told her I'm not really "reading" her any more, and she's told me it doesn't matter as she feels talking with me helps her a lot.

I do have several clients that are in therapy. I enjoy working with them as I can give them insights they can follow through on in their therapy sessions. These clients also tell their therapists about me. Interestingly enough, only one has objected to their patients going to see a psychic.

[ChristineL]

I was just toying with you their Christine, I actually new your answer before you even thought it, right down the part that you kinda thought I might be cute! It was just a little test of your complete satiability as a physic, not that you need one, just wanted to be a tab bit judgmental for the whole. I can feel you from here.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I have alwayz been particular shellfish with my abilities, I never even considered sharing them with anyone. As far as I was concerned they were mine and anyone that needed to know something could use their own. I grew up in a small world. It really never even dawned on me that not everyone had these connections with their own surroundings. When I was a boy running in the hills around these parts, [pre cable] I had a few friends, we never spoke, hardly ever. I grew up thinking this was just normal and never even speculated what it would be like to have a conversation with someone. We just new what one another were thinking, what way to go, we knew where we were going, we just knew. IF by chance we got off course the only thing that would be said would be something like I don’t know I was following you!
Later in life as a teen, I used this for more great reasons; I have never had a speeding ticket! Never had a moving violation, other than a seat belt ticket or a registration ticket. And believe me I still drive fast! My friend used to be amazed at this ability, cruising down the road at twenty or even thirty miles above the speed limit and slow way down all of a sudden and there he would be just cruise on past and right back up to speed. Kind of like my own built in radar gun! LOL!
<o:p></o:p>
Really strange things happen to me in the capacity, I will give you my latest that I am still laughing about, I have literally have thousands. I was at the bank getting ready to take some money out of the machine, I wanted four hundred. I looked at the machine and it winked at me, literally winked, I walked up, looked at the machine, the lights went off and on in a fraction of a second, I thought to my self “this machine is going to try and rip me off” I laughed at my own thought, put the card in, some of the money came out crooked, and it shorted me sixty bucks. I was laughing so hard. I walked in the bank at told the lovely woman about it and went out to tell another not to use it but she already had and it worked fine for her. I am still laughing about this affair and think that it was just a little cosmic blip. I got ht money back, but I really don’t even think I would have counted it if the machine had not winked at me. My new favorite saying is” My guardian angels can beat up your guardian angels”! I thought that one up sometime last year; it would make a great bumper sticker!
<o:p></o:p>
If I wanted to learn from someone it would be you Christine, I would love to hear how you go about making any sense of you sensitivity it this field. I never had tried to put anything into words; I just use the intuition and keep moving, letting it flow and not worrying about how to put it into a picture or even thought! I understand that this is difficult and allot of physics have problems in trying to decipher these. I myself don’t think I could. Mine is mine and it serves me well. In order to actually use it for someone else’s benefit, you need to be able to explain and understand more about what you are feeling, slow down and think about what you are experiencing, this is not going to work for me, I can’t even meditate yet! I am working on this part of my life and really want to be able to tune out and get into the meditative state of mind. The mind moves so fast, and I can imagine allot of people can’t keep up, I truly believe everyone has these capabilities, they just are focusing on them and they truly just pass them by. Sometimes mine are a little more intense than other times. I can remember a few years back, I was taking my lovely children to Karate, I had a hard day at work and dropped them off, went to get a beer and a sandwich. I was eating my sandwich in my car and reached for my beer to crack. A voice in my mind, plain as day told me” you can’t open that there is a cop behind you”. I was sort of in shock, I looked in my mirror and there was a sheriff standing right behind my car talking to someone. I skipped the beer! I enjoy my guardian angles way beyond the norm and really don’t think I could do without them at this point in my life. I am way to acclimated to their presence and am really used to having them around!
<o:p></o:p>
In order for anyone to prove to me that these powers of observation don’t really exist, this in itself is going to take a miracle. When someone figures out how it works and can explain it in a scientific presence, then I might evolve to understand there might not be guardian angels. Hell I am not sure I believe in guardian angels, but tell this time, it is set forth in my mind that not only that there are these physic phononanums, but for anyone to say they don’t exist is just plain naive, shallow and really beyond the scope of trying to be a true scientist. Once these capabilities are really understood and you get in down to a scientific equation, then we won’t have to call them cult activities, or even people trying to scam people for their own personal gain. I am quite sure this happens but I don’t want to have to convince people that they do exist, for I really don’t care. At this point it is all about you proving there is certain things that can exist right along side and people do live with these certain powers of observation, and figuring out how they are working in our environmental atmosphere. Only a closed mind, in a deep pool, closed off to all other aspects of ones own little world, lonely and with out real communication to ones true world can be this independent and have thoughts and expectations that involve only one self. The need to be right and full of true pride blinds many. The need to be cherished and loved can sometimes be bad on the other scope, this is where people can take advantage of the situation and really give this process a bad feeling and leave a bad taste in ones mouth.
<o:p></o:p>
I think that there has to be true tolerance in order to evolve. I believe each has the right to choose; each has the right to feel think and believe whatever one wants. I myself am a true believer, if you wish to mock me by all means please do, just remember I can mock you back for being one of those non-believers!
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

I enjoyed reading this post...and the courage it took to be so open in this type of forum. Meditation does not work for everyone and there are ways to connect that don't require this sitting in nothingness. I do it focusing on the redwoods in my back yard, or watching the squirrels playing, petting a purring cat or walking in shallow water. I've had some of my best insights leaning against a redwood tree.

As long as you "first, do no harm", there is nothing wrong with just flowing with it and using it for yourself. Anyway, I have found no-one listens to you when you try to warn them while living your every day life...if they're getting a card reading or a palmistry reading...particularly if they're paying something for it, they tend to listen.

[Zeno Swijtink]

This ["A skeptic is someone who bases his beliefs on evidence and is not willing to believe until he sees the evidence"] cannot be a good definition of a skeptic. Such a person would have very few beliefs, not enough to function in a complex society.

Most of our beliefs are based on testimony from other people we trust to have reliable beliefs. If you read a scientific paper based on direct observation and experiment you trust the authors to report and interpret correctly, have used reliable methods of error correction and data reduction, etc.

The difference between a skeptic and the rest of us cannot be based on this criterion, "having seen the evidence." It's a naive definition, not grounded in the practice of science.


"Evidence" is a kind of trick word. See my comments to Sara.

So what's your definition of the kind of skepticism you think to be characteristic of good science? To have a good definition seems essential to your project to give us a better "grasp of the aims and methods of science."

[Willie Lumplump]

Thank you. I do want to be very clear...I don't let them talk first...If they do, and some do no matter how many times I tell them not to, I start with the assumption that their perceptions are completely off the mark...they often are. I do also admit I have some repeat clients that need to talk...they have no family and possibly no friends and are trying to make changes in their lives with no one to give them any feed-back or encouragement. I have one client that grew up in a home so abusive, few would believe what she went through. She has been through extensive therapy and although at this point relatively emotionally healthy, she struggles with what are normal emotional reactions. For example, if something makes her sad, she's afraid she may be going into deep depression. My only job with her is to give her feed-back on what she's going through and assuring her she's not going back into the abyss. Sometimes, she asks me how I would react to certain situations, which helps her gauge if she's experiencing something she needs to go back to her therapist with. By the way, the therapist encouraged her to talk with me. Again, if it works...and it does for her...I use it. I also happen to like and respect this lady as I've seldom seen anyone so determined to become emotionally healthy. I've told her I'm not really "reading" her any more, and she's told me it doesn't matter as she feels talking with me helps her a lot.

I do have several clients that are in therapy. I enjoy working with them as I can give them insights they can follow through on in their therapy sessions. These clients also tell their therapists about me. Interestingly enough, only one has objected to their patients going to see a psychic.

Christine, I want to apologize for giving you such a rough time. You're obviously a very sincere and caring person, and I should honor that even if I don't believe in the occult.

[Willie Lumplump]

So what's your definition of the kind of skepticism you think to be characteristic of good science? To have a good definition seems essential to your project to give us a better "grasp of the aims and methods of science."

I think you're right about this. I probably should do some research on the question. I'll get back to you soon.

[ChristineL]

Christine, I want to apologize for giving you such a rough time. You're obviously a very sincere and caring person, and I should honor that even if I don't believe in the occult.

Thank you...apology accepted. I appreciate your recognition that I so my best to walk my path with sincerity and compassion, I work hard at doing so.

Christine