mykil
10-13-2007, 04:25 PM
In our time our resources are running so low, do you think we might be ready to slow our grown in this time and age?
View Full Version : when will the time come for population control?
Valley Oak
10-13-2007, 06:04 PM
I have had a lot of conversations with people, throughout the years, about population control. I remember it was more of an issue in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s but then awareness and concern waned. Don't know why.
I'll never forget when I saw the movie: "Soylent Green" when I was a kid. It didn't have the same emotional effect when I saw it more than 30 years later but the initial idea has stayed with me since my first viewing.
In one talk I had recently, I think last year, some people used a relatively old response, what some people refer to as the Malthusian theory. Simply put, that nature will come up with an environmental check on our species through a new disease (or famine or war, etc), such as the black plague, which will hopefully "weed out the weak and bring our number way down and under control."
Another conversation I had with another person, I think around 1982, was a little silly and intriguing. The guy I was talking to seemed so disturbed by the subject of overpopulation that he whispered the fact as if it was some secret for which you could be arrested for revealing! He then said something along the lines that war would have to be the "check" and that our leaders were secretly plotting to start wars for this reason before the world collapsed under an out of control population.
Perhaps people don't like to talk about things that disturb them, which I guess I can understand but I don't agree that it's acceptable. Another reason is that a significant number of people, especially U.S. citizens today, are very religious, religious to the point of hanging onto the "Be fruitful and multiply" saying that was so appropriate in the colonizing and settler days during the 17th through 19th centuries. The current occupant of the White House is probably of this mind set, which says a lot considering the fact that he wields the influence and power of a president. If our public officials are too busy being religious crusaders against birth control and abortion then we have a serious problem. The United States has a population of over 300 million people and counting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states).
We need to teach birth control and have a comprehensive sex education program in all public schools as they do now in Europe (and have had for decades). We need to make birth control cheap or free and readily available for everyone, including teens under the age of 18. But we won't do that here in the U.S. because we are too fucking stupid and fanatic not only for religious reasons but there is a new hysteria out there regarding under-aged sex being illegal and prosecuting people for it big time. It's a hysteria that's way out of control and violates peoples' Constitutional rights.
I don't see a solution for it here in the U.S. In European and other countries, the governments become active in educating the public and extensively using public funds for all of the aspects I've mentioned above. But taxes are another reason why we won't do what we need to do in the U.S. Americans hate taxes and spending money on "inappropriate and immoral" things like birth control, abortion, and sex education for our young people. Another analogy that reactionaries, conservatives, and religious zealots like to harp on here in the U.S. is that China "forces" its people to have abortions. Even if that were true, that is not a reason for not providing reproductive resources for the American public at taxpayers' expense.
Edward
In our time our resources are running so low, do you think we might be ready to slow our grown in this time and age?
I'll never forget when I saw the movie: "Soylent Green" when I was a kid. It didn't have the same emotional effect when I saw it more than 30 years later but the initial idea has stayed with me since my first viewing.
In one talk I had recently, I think last year, some people used a relatively old response, what some people refer to as the Malthusian theory. Simply put, that nature will come up with an environmental check on our species through a new disease (or famine or war, etc), such as the black plague, which will hopefully "weed out the weak and bring our number way down and under control."
Another conversation I had with another person, I think around 1982, was a little silly and intriguing. The guy I was talking to seemed so disturbed by the subject of overpopulation that he whispered the fact as if it was some secret for which you could be arrested for revealing! He then said something along the lines that war would have to be the "check" and that our leaders were secretly plotting to start wars for this reason before the world collapsed under an out of control population.
Perhaps people don't like to talk about things that disturb them, which I guess I can understand but I don't agree that it's acceptable. Another reason is that a significant number of people, especially U.S. citizens today, are very religious, religious to the point of hanging onto the "Be fruitful and multiply" saying that was so appropriate in the colonizing and settler days during the 17th through 19th centuries. The current occupant of the White House is probably of this mind set, which says a lot considering the fact that he wields the influence and power of a president. If our public officials are too busy being religious crusaders against birth control and abortion then we have a serious problem. The United States has a population of over 300 million people and counting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states).
We need to teach birth control and have a comprehensive sex education program in all public schools as they do now in Europe (and have had for decades). We need to make birth control cheap or free and readily available for everyone, including teens under the age of 18. But we won't do that here in the U.S. because we are too fucking stupid and fanatic not only for religious reasons but there is a new hysteria out there regarding under-aged sex being illegal and prosecuting people for it big time. It's a hysteria that's way out of control and violates peoples' Constitutional rights.
I don't see a solution for it here in the U.S. In European and other countries, the governments become active in educating the public and extensively using public funds for all of the aspects I've mentioned above. But taxes are another reason why we won't do what we need to do in the U.S. Americans hate taxes and spending money on "inappropriate and immoral" things like birth control, abortion, and sex education for our young people. Another analogy that reactionaries, conservatives, and religious zealots like to harp on here in the U.S. is that China "forces" its people to have abortions. Even if that were true, that is not a reason for not providing reproductive resources for the American public at taxpayers' expense.
Edward
In our time our resources are running so low, do you think we might be ready to slow our grown in this time and age?
OrchardDweller
10-13-2007, 11:17 PM
I don't see a solution for it here in the U.S. In European and other countries, the governments become active in educating the public and extensively using public funds for all of the aspects I've mentioned above. But taxes are another reason why we won't do what we need to do in the U.S. Americans hate taxes and spending money on "inappropriate and immoral" things like birth control, abortion, and sex education for our young people. Another analogy that reactionaries, conservatives, and religious zealots like to harp on here in the U.S. is that China "forces" its people to have abortions. Even if that were true, that is not a reason for not providing reproductive resources for the American public at taxpayers' expense.
Edward
How about letting people keep their tax dollars so they can afford their own birth control? If they feel they need to.
If you are "pro-choice", wouldn't it be the pro-choice thing to do to let women choose for themselves whether they want to have a child or not?
Those were rhetorical questions by the way.
Edward
How about letting people keep their tax dollars so they can afford their own birth control? If they feel they need to.
If you are "pro-choice", wouldn't it be the pro-choice thing to do to let women choose for themselves whether they want to have a child or not?
Those were rhetorical questions by the way.
Becky
10-14-2007, 10:43 PM
I do wish there was more education out there on birth control as our population can use it. Excellent post Edward.
ThePhiant
10-15-2007, 08:53 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO
I do wish there was more education out there on birth control as our population can use it. Excellent post Edward.
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO
I do wish there was more education out there on birth control as our population can use it. Excellent post Edward.
mykil
10-15-2007, 09:34 AM
I have two, one for each parent! My children are in their early Twenties and have both decided against having children! I didn’t even ask why, I just new the answer to that question already, they are brighter than me, plain and simple! At this point in time, I don’t think I would want to raise children. IT was bad enough in the eighties! It is getting scary around here. Even now that they are off and running and not in my home any longer, I still worry on a daily basis and just pray nothing goes haywire and cost them either their lives, their limbs, or even their minds! But seriously LULU what do you think? Oh and don’t hold back either!!!!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There is a young mother I know that does laundry and the little laundry next door. I’ve known her for Six years. She has been pregnant every since I have known her, she has Nine and is not even Thirty yet! What do you think about that? What does that multiply out to in the long run? In my mind I think One per parent is adequate and going backwards from there might just be the ticket here! IF they don’t like it they can move to Canada, I hear they are still paying you to have children there! Or is that just a rumor? LMAO!!! How many does everyone here have? : Lets add them all up and do some simple multiplications and see what the outcome will be in lets say fifty years? LULU you go first, I think you have Three yes?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I do know this is an extremely sensitive post, I was a where of this before I even considered writing it, yet it needs to be started somewhere. This is the sole purpose of most of us becoming vegetarians, the sole purpose of most of the stress all of us succumb to with all the horrors in society. Not having enough food for all. Not having enough oceans to pollute! Not having enough Ozone to poke holes in to warm up our earth’s atmosphere. It seems to me this needs to be discussed and taken to heart all around the world. Reduction is in order!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO
<o:p></o:p>
There is a young mother I know that does laundry and the little laundry next door. I’ve known her for Six years. She has been pregnant every since I have known her, she has Nine and is not even Thirty yet! What do you think about that? What does that multiply out to in the long run? In my mind I think One per parent is adequate and going backwards from there might just be the ticket here! IF they don’t like it they can move to Canada, I hear they are still paying you to have children there! Or is that just a rumor? LMAO!!! How many does everyone here have? : Lets add them all up and do some simple multiplications and see what the outcome will be in lets say fifty years? LULU you go first, I think you have Three yes?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I do know this is an extremely sensitive post, I was a where of this before I even considered writing it, yet it needs to be started somewhere. This is the sole purpose of most of us becoming vegetarians, the sole purpose of most of the stress all of us succumb to with all the horrors in society. Not having enough food for all. Not having enough oceans to pollute! Not having enough Ozone to poke holes in to warm up our earth’s atmosphere. It seems to me this needs to be discussed and taken to heart all around the world. Reduction is in order!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO
alanora
10-15-2007, 10:00 AM
I am confused as I thought you have two female progeny and one male, equaling three, no?! and then the ones no one is sure who provided the errant sperm to produce. (male bashing) Why would you delete your eldest daughter? I love the way it was pointed out that these thoughts of population control come after the creation of own progeny. btw I never wanted children while young..up until the moment when the powers that be told me I would not be able to conceive and the urge was one of the strongest impulses I've ever felt. If each couple had one child that would begin to ease the crowding and thinned natural resources. If each person reproduces we will not see a change. me
I have two, one for each parent! My children are in their early Twenties and have both decided against having children! I didn’t even ask why, I just new the answer to that question already, they are brighter than me, plain and simple! At this point in time, I don’t think I would want to raise children. IT was bad enough in the eighties! It is getting scary around here. Even now that they are off and running and not in my home any longer, I still worry on a daily basis and just pray nothing goes haywire and cost them either their lives, their limbs, or even their minds! But seriously LULU what do you think? Oh and don’t hold back either!!!!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There is a young mother I know that does laundry and the little laundry next door. I’ve known her for Six years. She has been pregnant every since I have known her, she has Nine and is not even Thirty yet! What do you think about that? What does that multiply out to in the long run? In my mind I think One per parent is adequate and going backwards from there might just be the ticket here! IF they don’t like it they can move to Canada, I hear they are still paying you to have children there! Or is that just a rumor? LMAO!!! How many does everyone here have? : Lets add them all up and do some simple multiplications and see what the outcome will be in lets say fifty years? LULU you go first, I think you have Three yes?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I do know this is an extremely sensitive post, I was a where of this before I even considered writing it, yet it needs to be started somewhere. This is the sole purpose of most of us becoming vegetarians, the sole purpose of most of the stress all of us succumb to with all the horrors in society. Not having enough food for all. Not having enough oceans to pollute! Not having enough Ozone to poke holes in to warm up our earth’s atmosphere. It seems to me this needs to be discussed and taken to heart all around the world. Reduction is in order!
I have two, one for each parent! My children are in their early Twenties and have both decided against having children! I didn’t even ask why, I just new the answer to that question already, they are brighter than me, plain and simple! At this point in time, I don’t think I would want to raise children. IT was bad enough in the eighties! It is getting scary around here. Even now that they are off and running and not in my home any longer, I still worry on a daily basis and just pray nothing goes haywire and cost them either their lives, their limbs, or even their minds! But seriously LULU what do you think? Oh and don’t hold back either!!!!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There is a young mother I know that does laundry and the little laundry next door. I’ve known her for Six years. She has been pregnant every since I have known her, she has Nine and is not even Thirty yet! What do you think about that? What does that multiply out to in the long run? In my mind I think One per parent is adequate and going backwards from there might just be the ticket here! IF they don’t like it they can move to Canada, I hear they are still paying you to have children there! Or is that just a rumor? LMAO!!! How many does everyone here have? : Lets add them all up and do some simple multiplications and see what the outcome will be in lets say fifty years? LULU you go first, I think you have Three yes?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I do know this is an extremely sensitive post, I was a where of this before I even considered writing it, yet it needs to be started somewhere. This is the sole purpose of most of us becoming vegetarians, the sole purpose of most of the stress all of us succumb to with all the horrors in society. Not having enough food for all. Not having enough oceans to pollute! Not having enough Ozone to poke holes in to warm up our earth’s atmosphere. It seems to me this needs to be discussed and taken to heart all around the world. Reduction is in order!
Becky
10-15-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm not sure how to take this but its upsetting. What does it matter if I have 2 or 3 kids? It not like i have 5 or more all by different daddies and living on welfare. I think its rude of you to point us out like this.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO
ThePhiant
10-15-2007, 12:05 PM
I love the way it was pointed out that these thoughts of population control come after the creation of own progeny.
Alanora, it's OK to mention my name
you can even send some gratitude, thanks to Barry
Alanora, it's OK to mention my name
you can even send some gratitude, thanks to Barry
ThePhiant
10-15-2007, 12:11 PM
but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????
I'm not sure how to take this but its upsetting. What does it matter if I have 2 or 3 kids? It not like i have 5 or more all by different daddies and living on welfare. I think its rude of you to point us out like this.
is your point of view for the rest of us????
I'm not sure how to take this but its upsetting. What does it matter if I have 2 or 3 kids? It not like i have 5 or more all by different daddies and living on welfare. I think its rude of you to point us out like this.
mykil
10-15-2007, 12:29 PM
Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????
<o:p></o:p>
but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????
Becky
10-15-2007, 12:33 PM
but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????
Hey everyone has their own opinion and your are entitled to yours as well. I find it interesting that you reply to a controversial subject and then feel the need to attack the first person to reply who has more than one child. Its kind of funny to me now though that even though its not listed in my signature that you happen to remember how many kids I have. I feel so important LOL Its not like I'm on wacco everyday and go on and on about my family life. This is supposed to be a community of people that supports one another not a place to be negative, I guess that is just something you like to do. I don't consider 2 or 3 kids to be a lot considering most of two. My hubby is from a very large family and I am from a small family. To each there own.
I do however believe BC is something that is not talked about enough to our youth and its something that should be changed. When I replied to edwards post it was based on the fact that many babies are having babies now and its sad IMO. Its no longer taboo to get pregnant in high school and has become more socially acceptable. What happened to going to college or having a career and being married before having kids? I know things happen and birth control fails but its much easier for an adult to have the drive to continue to move forward with their life and not live off the system. Don't take this the wrong way, welfare is something that families sometimes will need when the going gets rough and they need assistance to survive for a period of time. it just saddens me to see our youth lacking the proper education about birth control and they are having babies of their own far to young.
Now I'm sure you Lulu will reply with some other negative remark but then maybe not. Debate can be good but maybe you should think about supporting fellow members by not singling out one person who has kids. :thumbsup:
is your point of view for the rest of us????
Hey everyone has their own opinion and your are entitled to yours as well. I find it interesting that you reply to a controversial subject and then feel the need to attack the first person to reply who has more than one child. Its kind of funny to me now though that even though its not listed in my signature that you happen to remember how many kids I have. I feel so important LOL Its not like I'm on wacco everyday and go on and on about my family life. This is supposed to be a community of people that supports one another not a place to be negative, I guess that is just something you like to do. I don't consider 2 or 3 kids to be a lot considering most of two. My hubby is from a very large family and I am from a small family. To each there own.
I do however believe BC is something that is not talked about enough to our youth and its something that should be changed. When I replied to edwards post it was based on the fact that many babies are having babies now and its sad IMO. Its no longer taboo to get pregnant in high school and has become more socially acceptable. What happened to going to college or having a career and being married before having kids? I know things happen and birth control fails but its much easier for an adult to have the drive to continue to move forward with their life and not live off the system. Don't take this the wrong way, welfare is something that families sometimes will need when the going gets rough and they need assistance to survive for a period of time. it just saddens me to see our youth lacking the proper education about birth control and they are having babies of their own far to young.
Now I'm sure you Lulu will reply with some other negative remark but then maybe not. Debate can be good but maybe you should think about supporting fellow members by not singling out one person who has kids. :thumbsup:
ChristineL
10-15-2007, 08:36 PM
I agree with Becky that Birth Control information should be a lot more available. It's not only babies having babies but all the STD's out there, including HIV, and little education on the use of condoms. Did you know that a while back (I think around 2 or 3 years ago) all programs that promoted the use of condoms and/or distributed them lost any Federal funding they were receiving? Unfortunately, abstinence only programs are not terribly effective. Regardless of how one might feel about sex outside marriage, it seems that paying for these transgressions with your life is a bit extreme.
Until all the pro-life and abistinence only people are ready to take in the unwanted babies or pay for their upbringinhg, they should be quiet and not be trying to overthrow Roe Vs. Wade or cutting funding to all organizations that promote condom use.
I do feel strongly about population control. Too many of our eath's species are going, and have already gone, extinct. I'm glad I'm a baby boomer who has a chance of being gone from this earth before all the forests are gone. When I've listened to people with 4, 5, 6 or more children bemoan the fact their children won't be able to live their lives in Sonoma County due to building restrictions, my internal reaction is: "How many of our redwoods would like us to cut down to make room for them?". In addition, being single with no dependents I'm in the highest tax bracket. I use way less resources than families do and pay more for them. I pay a ridiculous amount for sewer connection and basic charges on my water bill with no financial reward for my low water use.
I've often thought that one way to address the population problem would be that the first two children would be tax exemptions, the third not and from the fourth on extra taxes would be charged. I know, it would never happen.....and it's not the children's faults their parents decided to have them. So yes, I'm apalled by Bush's recent veto. Of course, I'm also apalled that the "Healthy Families" program does not also cover the parents if they can't afford insurance. Not my idea of "family values".....healthy orphans??? Somewhere over the years "family values" seemed to no longer include "seniors". These are the forgotten people.....they've worked hard all their lives and.......often have to choose between medications and food and even if they've planned their retirement well, they're only one serious medical condition away from losing all they've worked for.
Maybe, just maybe, if higher education was not ridiculously expensive......more people would be striving for more and not producing children they're not ready for.
Sorry for the digressions...
Until all the pro-life and abistinence only people are ready to take in the unwanted babies or pay for their upbringinhg, they should be quiet and not be trying to overthrow Roe Vs. Wade or cutting funding to all organizations that promote condom use.
I do feel strongly about population control. Too many of our eath's species are going, and have already gone, extinct. I'm glad I'm a baby boomer who has a chance of being gone from this earth before all the forests are gone. When I've listened to people with 4, 5, 6 or more children bemoan the fact their children won't be able to live their lives in Sonoma County due to building restrictions, my internal reaction is: "How many of our redwoods would like us to cut down to make room for them?". In addition, being single with no dependents I'm in the highest tax bracket. I use way less resources than families do and pay more for them. I pay a ridiculous amount for sewer connection and basic charges on my water bill with no financial reward for my low water use.
I've often thought that one way to address the population problem would be that the first two children would be tax exemptions, the third not and from the fourth on extra taxes would be charged. I know, it would never happen.....and it's not the children's faults their parents decided to have them. So yes, I'm apalled by Bush's recent veto. Of course, I'm also apalled that the "Healthy Families" program does not also cover the parents if they can't afford insurance. Not my idea of "family values".....healthy orphans??? Somewhere over the years "family values" seemed to no longer include "seniors". These are the forgotten people.....they've worked hard all their lives and.......often have to choose between medications and food and even if they've planned their retirement well, they're only one serious medical condition away from losing all they've worked for.
Maybe, just maybe, if higher education was not ridiculously expensive......more people would be striving for more and not producing children they're not ready for.
Sorry for the digressions...
ThePhiant
10-15-2007, 09:22 PM
dear Becky
I find it interesting that you reply to a controversial subject and then feel the need to attack the first person to reply who has more than one child.AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, you were being ATTACkED????????
honey all I did is was put some facts together
Its kind of funny to me now though that even though its not listed in my signature that you happen to remember how many kids I have. I feel so important LOL thanks for the compliment, yes sometimes my memory works wonders
but you are making yourself more important than is necessary, I wrote about THREE PEOPLE NOT JUST YOU
This is supposed to be a community of people that supports one another not a place to be negative, I guess that is just something you like to do. I guess it is OK for you to make negative statements about me
Now I'm sure you Lulu will reply with some other negative remark but then maybe not. Debate can be good but maybe you should think about supporting fellow members by not singling out one person who has kids.here's another negative statement Becky
and once again NOT accurate!!! but definitely a very confusing hypothesis
no one was singled out by me, Becky
not by me...........................
LuLu
I find it interesting that you reply to a controversial subject and then feel the need to attack the first person to reply who has more than one child.AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, you were being ATTACkED????????
honey all I did is was put some facts together
Its kind of funny to me now though that even though its not listed in my signature that you happen to remember how many kids I have. I feel so important LOL thanks for the compliment, yes sometimes my memory works wonders
but you are making yourself more important than is necessary, I wrote about THREE PEOPLE NOT JUST YOU
This is supposed to be a community of people that supports one another not a place to be negative, I guess that is just something you like to do. I guess it is OK for you to make negative statements about me
Now I'm sure you Lulu will reply with some other negative remark but then maybe not. Debate can be good but maybe you should think about supporting fellow members by not singling out one person who has kids.here's another negative statement Becky
and once again NOT accurate!!! but definitely a very confusing hypothesis
no one was singled out by me, Becky
not by me...........................
LuLu
ThePhiant
10-15-2007, 09:27 PM
Mykil, I want to hear what our good friend Dixon has to say about this first.
I am still hoping that he puts a class together, to teach people to do some critical thinking, that was his best offer ever!!!
we can use some of that every now and again
Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I am still hoping that he puts a class together, to teach people to do some critical thinking, that was his best offer ever!!!
we can use some of that every now and again
Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Barry
10-15-2007, 09:45 PM
dear Becky
AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, you were being ATTACkED????????Congratulations Lulu, you managed to get a rise out of someone else.
That's enough now, both of you.
AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, you were being ATTACkED????????Congratulations Lulu, you managed to get a rise out of someone else.
That's enough now, both of you.
Becky
10-15-2007, 10:06 PM
I do feel strongly about population control. Too many of our eath's species are going, and have already gone, extinct. I'm glad I'm a baby boomer who has a chance of being gone from this earth before all the forests are gone. When I've listened to people with 4, 5, 6 or more children bemoan the fact their children won't be able to live their lives in Sonoma County due to building restrictions, my internal reaction is: "How many of our redwoods would like us to cut down to make room for them?".
Christine your statement got me thinking about all the building that i have seen go on here in Santa Rosa in just the past 2 years. Just in one little area I have seen two new neighborhoods go up and now they are working on a 3rd. So much for the lovely grasslands that I used to drive through from time to time. Its all filled with new homes. I have heard this is supposed to be a way for Santa Rosa to improve an other wise dumpy neighborhood by building expensive homes but I often think "is this really helping?"
When I was really young I used to look at the run down neighborhoods in LA and wondered why no one was trying to improve their neighborhood. It kind of sad. I grew up in a neighborhood that was really bad so the city made huge changes and for the better. Sure they torn down blocks and blocks of homes but in return the city gave us a home depot, market, a much needed shopping center and the end result was the gangs pretty much disappeared, cruising on the blvd stopped and the neighborhood became a place you wanted to live in.
Okay so I'm going off topic here but I wonder if developers would just stop building and covering our land with more concrete if maybe that would somehow help control the sizes of our cities and protect what nature has given us.
Christine your statement got me thinking about all the building that i have seen go on here in Santa Rosa in just the past 2 years. Just in one little area I have seen two new neighborhoods go up and now they are working on a 3rd. So much for the lovely grasslands that I used to drive through from time to time. Its all filled with new homes. I have heard this is supposed to be a way for Santa Rosa to improve an other wise dumpy neighborhood by building expensive homes but I often think "is this really helping?"
When I was really young I used to look at the run down neighborhoods in LA and wondered why no one was trying to improve their neighborhood. It kind of sad. I grew up in a neighborhood that was really bad so the city made huge changes and for the better. Sure they torn down blocks and blocks of homes but in return the city gave us a home depot, market, a much needed shopping center and the end result was the gangs pretty much disappeared, cruising on the blvd stopped and the neighborhood became a place you wanted to live in.
Okay so I'm going off topic here but I wonder if developers would just stop building and covering our land with more concrete if maybe that would somehow help control the sizes of our cities and protect what nature has given us.
ThePhiant
10-16-2007, 09:00 AM
:thumbsup:thank you for your sarcastic compliment, Barry:thumbsup:
and I wasn't even trying to "attack" or "get a rise out of somebody".
you know I can do better than this!
Congratulations Lulu, you managed to get a rise out of someone else.
That's enough now, both of you.
and I wasn't even trying to "attack" or "get a rise out of somebody".
you know I can do better than this!
Congratulations Lulu, you managed to get a rise out of someone else.
That's enough now, both of you.
Zeno Swijtink
10-16-2007, 12:59 PM
Overpopulation and population pressure is a local phenomenon, some countries have declining populations while others expand thru new births or immigration.
https://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/pyramids.html
is an interesting data base from the US Census Bureau where you can see how the populations of the countries in the world are expected to grow or shrink over time, represented by age groups in a pyramid.
Compare sat Italy of Japan with the USA!
In Italy and Japan the population is graying and expected to gray even more over the next forty years. Some demographers are even concerned whether there will be enough young people to take care of things in some of these countries. Some countries try to encourage babies with stipends and so.
In the US the population is expected to grow in the next forty years, mainly because of immigration and immigrants having larger families, possibly because of their optimistic view of their future capacity to take care of their children at the level they have set for themselves.
https://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/pyramids.html
is an interesting data base from the US Census Bureau where you can see how the populations of the countries in the world are expected to grow or shrink over time, represented by age groups in a pyramid.
Compare sat Italy of Japan with the USA!
In Italy and Japan the population is graying and expected to gray even more over the next forty years. Some demographers are even concerned whether there will be enough young people to take care of things in some of these countries. Some countries try to encourage babies with stipends and so.
In the US the population is expected to grow in the next forty years, mainly because of immigration and immigrants having larger families, possibly because of their optimistic view of their future capacity to take care of their children at the level they have set for themselves.
ThePhiant
10-16-2007, 02:25 PM
well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too
Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too
Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
mykil
10-16-2007, 03:03 PM
What about our Oceans, what about our Ozone? What you are saying doesn’t make sense to me! What about all the critters that humans are killing off, the extinctions have to stop somewhere! WE share the planet with around Fifty Million different species and we are killing off more and more everyday by propagation and over population no? WE may have enough food to go around but the rest of our world is suffering dramatically!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too
<o:p></o:p>
well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too
Zeno Swijtink
10-16-2007, 03:13 PM
I posted an interesting article from the Atlantic on "Optimism and Overpopulation" on WaccoReader.
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
ThePhiant
10-16-2007, 05:26 PM
Zeno's article has some parts of the puzzle
I think most things are cyclical, there's no telling why species are dying off.
most species evolved or are related to extinct species.
by next century, you might have a hard time finding people from different races and colors. good? bad?
I think there is a relationship between wealth and overpopulation
if you are rich, you have things to loose and a need to protect your assets i.e. there are too many people that are living of me
if you are poor, the more kids, the higher the chance of one of surviving to take care of you in old age
I am more concerned about proliferation (nukes) and annihilation than extinction
What about our Oceans, what about our Ozone? What you are saying doesn’t make sense to me! What about all the critters that humans are killing off, the extinctions have to stop somewhere! WE share the planet with around Fifty Million different species and we are killing off more and more everyday by propagation and over population no? WE may have enough food to go around but the rest of our world is suffering dramatically!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I think most things are cyclical, there's no telling why species are dying off.
most species evolved or are related to extinct species.
by next century, you might have a hard time finding people from different races and colors. good? bad?
I think there is a relationship between wealth and overpopulation
if you are rich, you have things to loose and a need to protect your assets i.e. there are too many people that are living of me
if you are poor, the more kids, the higher the chance of one of surviving to take care of you in old age
I am more concerned about proliferation (nukes) and annihilation than extinction
What about our Oceans, what about our Ozone? What you are saying doesn’t make sense to me! What about all the critters that humans are killing off, the extinctions have to stop somewhere! WE share the planet with around Fifty Million different species and we are killing off more and more everyday by propagation and over population no? WE may have enough food to go around but the rest of our world is suffering dramatically!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 12:25 AM
Zeno's article has some parts of the puzzle
I think most things are cyclical, there's no telling why species are dying off.
most species evolved or are related to extinct species.
by next century, you might have a hard time finding people from different races and colors. good? bad?
I think there is a relationship between wealth and overpopulation
if you are rich, you have things to loose and a need to protect your assets i.e. there are too many people that are living of me
if you are poor, the more kids, the higher the chance of one of surviving to take care of you in old age
I am more concerned about proliferation (nukes) and annihilation than extinction
Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.
I think most things are cyclical, there's no telling why species are dying off.
most species evolved or are related to extinct species.
by next century, you might have a hard time finding people from different races and colors. good? bad?
I think there is a relationship between wealth and overpopulation
if you are rich, you have things to loose and a need to protect your assets i.e. there are too many people that are living of me
if you are poor, the more kids, the higher the chance of one of surviving to take care of you in old age
I am more concerned about proliferation (nukes) and annihilation than extinction
Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 01:46 AM
well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too
Here I go again: Define large......So not only, as a single person, should I pay more for using less resources.....because in my case I do.....my office is in my home.....(No commuting, I produce minimal garbage in only one space, have no air conditioning, keep my house around 68 degrees in the winter, have limited landscaping, etc.). But......I should be relegated to living, and working, in a studio space in town....instead of my hundred year old house in the redwoods (which by the way, houses 3 people in two "apartments"). Of course, I guess seniors, particularly single ones, should all have to live out their lives in what I call rabbit hutches (small spaces stacked on top of one another). After all, we need to make room for those who choose to over-propagate. I agree the MacMansion epedemic is a waste of space and resources and that no-one "needs" that much square footage. Yes, I still think over-population is a problem.......and even if every "single" person was forced to live in small units, you'd still have the problem that 5 children each having 3 to 5 children, and so on will still require a lot of home construction.....
Whether the earth, and it's population, is suddenly destroyed by Weapons of Mass Destruction or slowly destroyed by the destruction of natural resources, pollution and global warming......it will still be destroyed.
As for those who believe that "God" made the earth for our benefit and meant for us to dominate it.......I believe he/she will hold us accountable for our poor custodianship of this earth and all its creatures.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too
Here I go again: Define large......So not only, as a single person, should I pay more for using less resources.....because in my case I do.....my office is in my home.....(No commuting, I produce minimal garbage in only one space, have no air conditioning, keep my house around 68 degrees in the winter, have limited landscaping, etc.). But......I should be relegated to living, and working, in a studio space in town....instead of my hundred year old house in the redwoods (which by the way, houses 3 people in two "apartments"). Of course, I guess seniors, particularly single ones, should all have to live out their lives in what I call rabbit hutches (small spaces stacked on top of one another). After all, we need to make room for those who choose to over-propagate. I agree the MacMansion epedemic is a waste of space and resources and that no-one "needs" that much square footage. Yes, I still think over-population is a problem.......and even if every "single" person was forced to live in small units, you'd still have the problem that 5 children each having 3 to 5 children, and so on will still require a lot of home construction.....
Whether the earth, and it's population, is suddenly destroyed by Weapons of Mass Destruction or slowly destroyed by the destruction of natural resources, pollution and global warming......it will still be destroyed.
As for those who believe that "God" made the earth for our benefit and meant for us to dominate it.......I believe he/she will hold us accountable for our poor custodianship of this earth and all its creatures.
ThePhiant
10-17-2007, 08:49 AM
yes, Christine, that was kind of my point
we have evolved from being a scavenging hunter with a lifespan of 25-30yrs,
into a 70-80 yr dominant predator.
we aren't just taking and poisoning other species sources of food away .
we are actively eliminating our own.
do you think the earth would be better off without humans?
Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.
we have evolved from being a scavenging hunter with a lifespan of 25-30yrs,
into a 70-80 yr dominant predator.
we aren't just taking and poisoning other species sources of food away .
we are actively eliminating our own.
do you think the earth would be better off without humans?
Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.
ThePhiant
10-17-2007, 08:56 AM
but have you noticed that it is the have-nots who have large families?
but as soon as the offspring acquires some sort of wealth, the number of children go down.
but as soon as the offspring acquires some sort of wealth, the number of children go down.
Zeno Swijtink
10-17-2007, 09:34 AM
but have you noticed that it is the have-nots who have large families?
but as soon as the offspring acquires some sort of wealth, the number of children go down.
The Atlantic article "Optimism and Overpopulation" I posted on WaccoReader gives a different explanation of this.
It's the optimistic that have larger families: so what looks to you as have-nots are actually people who think they will be better of than before and can afford more children. A test would be for instance to see whether recent immigrants have larger families here than similar families in their country of origin. Assuming that their getting in here has made them more optimistic about their future, while they still have the same ideas about the resources to raise a kid decently. (So separate rooms for all the kids may not be felt as a requirement for a good childhood.)
The richer people have less children because they are impressed by the large resources they think it will take to give their kids the same kind of life they have gotten used to.
but as soon as the offspring acquires some sort of wealth, the number of children go down.
The Atlantic article "Optimism and Overpopulation" I posted on WaccoReader gives a different explanation of this.
It's the optimistic that have larger families: so what looks to you as have-nots are actually people who think they will be better of than before and can afford more children. A test would be for instance to see whether recent immigrants have larger families here than similar families in their country of origin. Assuming that their getting in here has made them more optimistic about their future, while they still have the same ideas about the resources to raise a kid decently. (So separate rooms for all the kids may not be felt as a requirement for a good childhood.)
The richer people have less children because they are impressed by the large resources they think it will take to give their kids the same kind of life they have gotten used to.
ThePhiant
10-17-2007, 09:42 AM
from what I know of my personal experience from about 10 Mexican families, one has 5 kids, one 3 kids (last one, 10 years later, an "accident") the rest has 1 or 2 kids and they don't want anymore. they actually didn't like the large family at home, and feel they still have a large family with cousins, aunts, uncles and the like
The Atlantic article "Optimism and Overpopulation" I posted on WaccoReader gives a different explanation of this.
It's the optimistic that have larger families: so what looks to you as have-nots are actually people who think they will be better of than before and can afford more children. A test would be for instance to see whether recent immigrants have larger families here than similar families in their country of origin. Assuming that their getting in here has made them more optimistic about their future, while they still have the same ideas about the resources to raise a kid decently. (So separate rooms for all the kids may not be felt as a requirement for a good childhood.)
The richer people have less children because they are impressed by the large resources they think it will take to give their kids the same kind of life they have gotten used to.
The Atlantic article "Optimism and Overpopulation" I posted on WaccoReader gives a different explanation of this.
It's the optimistic that have larger families: so what looks to you as have-nots are actually people who think they will be better of than before and can afford more children. A test would be for instance to see whether recent immigrants have larger families here than similar families in their country of origin. Assuming that their getting in here has made them more optimistic about their future, while they still have the same ideas about the resources to raise a kid decently. (So separate rooms for all the kids may not be felt as a requirement for a good childhood.)
The richer people have less children because they are impressed by the large resources they think it will take to give their kids the same kind of life they have gotten used to.
Willie Lumplump
10-17-2007, 09:44 AM
Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.
All species are related if you go far back enough in time, meaning about 3.8 billion years. The world is now experiencing the greatest mass extinction event since 65 million years ago when an asteroid six miles in diameter hit the earth killing off 75% of the extant species. The causes of the present extinctions are clear. Habitat destruction, chiefly the destruction of rain forests, is clearly the most important and will become even more important as man causes entire biomes to shift through global warming. The spread of invasive species is second in importance. The biologically impoverished world that we are creating now will be with the human race for a long time. It takes about five million years for the planet to recover from a mass extinction.
All species are related if you go far back enough in time, meaning about 3.8 billion years. The world is now experiencing the greatest mass extinction event since 65 million years ago when an asteroid six miles in diameter hit the earth killing off 75% of the extant species. The causes of the present extinctions are clear. Habitat destruction, chiefly the destruction of rain forests, is clearly the most important and will become even more important as man causes entire biomes to shift through global warming. The spread of invasive species is second in importance. The biologically impoverished world that we are creating now will be with the human race for a long time. It takes about five million years for the planet to recover from a mass extinction.
mykil
10-17-2007, 10:34 AM
I understand what Zeno was getting at and it was a wonderful article, just wish he wasn't so dam educated and could learn to use some smaller words so the rest of the world could acquire a sense of what he was actually trying to say. I feel most people that are over educated have this problem communicating with the rest of the west! LOL! Although I did get the jest of it all I did have to read it a little slower than I would have liked to be sure and take it all in.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
From what I gatherer you are saying it all sound accurate as all hell, The migration really took a stronger path when we were introduced the automobile and other means of transportation, such as the train, aircraft and even snowmobiles for that matter. WE are all getting around! See it’s not just me!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I think the localized reproduction theory is a good explanation of the way things used to be. With every village and society keeping in check their own population. Now that we all seem to be getting around, things are going to get a little crowded and with the pollution in mind, we are all going to fry!
<o:p></o:p>
From what I gatherer you are saying it all sound accurate as all hell, The migration really took a stronger path when we were introduced the automobile and other means of transportation, such as the train, aircraft and even snowmobiles for that matter. WE are all getting around! See it’s not just me!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I think the localized reproduction theory is a good explanation of the way things used to be. With every village and society keeping in check their own population. Now that we all seem to be getting around, things are going to get a little crowded and with the pollution in mind, we are all going to fry!
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 12:03 PM
from what I know of my personal experience from about 10 Mexican families, one has 5 kids, one 3 kids (last one, 10 years later, an "accident") the rest has 1 or 2 kids and they don't want anymore. they actually didn't like the large family at home, and feel they still have a large family with cousins, aunts, uncles and the like
Why is this suddenly becoming about Mexicans? Let's see, we have the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and many others whose religious beliefs lead to having many offspring.
Why is this suddenly becoming about Mexicans? Let's see, we have the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and many others whose religious beliefs lead to having many offspring.
mykil
10-17-2007, 12:24 PM
Lets not forget about the blacks in those ghettos and the white trash in those trailers!! LMFAO!!! You know the ones that for no apparent reason don’t seem to know what birth control is? I feel putting blame on anyone is a huge mistake and putting yourself above others is alwayz a bad sign, you may want to step back and take a look at whom you are and where on this lovely planet you actually came from! Mexicans, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims! If you mentioned one of these it was too many!!!!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Why is this suddenly becoming about Mexicans? Let's see, we have the , and many others whose religious beliefs lead to having many offspring.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Why is this suddenly becoming about Mexicans? Let's see, we have the , and many others whose religious beliefs lead to having many offspring.
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 12:24 PM
I understand what Zeno was getting at and it was a wonderful article, just wish he wasn't so dam educated and could learn to use some smaller words so the rest of the world could acquire a sense of what he was actually trying to say. I feel most people that are over educated have this problem communicating with the rest of the west! LOL! Although I did get the jest of it all I did have to read it a little slower than I would have liked to be sure and take it all in.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
From what I gatherer you are saying it all sound accurate as all hell, The migration really took a stronger path when we were introduced the automobile and other means of transportation, such as the train, aircraft and even snowmobiles for that matter. WE are all getting around! See it’s not just me!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I think the localized reproduction theory is a good explanation of the way things used to be. With every village and society keeping in check their own population. Now that we all seem to be getting around, things are going to get a little crowded and with the pollution in mind, we are all going to fry!
I think reproductive rates were much more controlled by high infant mortality rates, more misscarriages, still births, and more young women dying in child birth. Walk around old cemetaries some time. Most weren't "keeping a check" on anything. Remembering my Grandmother's stories, and even family history.....the infant mortality rate was high. Of course, then there was WWI and WWII, which in many cases killed off two generations of European men in the same families......that does tend to keep the population in check.
<o:p></o:p>
From what I gatherer you are saying it all sound accurate as all hell, The migration really took a stronger path when we were introduced the automobile and other means of transportation, such as the train, aircraft and even snowmobiles for that matter. WE are all getting around! See it’s not just me!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I think the localized reproduction theory is a good explanation of the way things used to be. With every village and society keeping in check their own population. Now that we all seem to be getting around, things are going to get a little crowded and with the pollution in mind, we are all going to fry!
I think reproductive rates were much more controlled by high infant mortality rates, more misscarriages, still births, and more young women dying in child birth. Walk around old cemetaries some time. Most weren't "keeping a check" on anything. Remembering my Grandmother's stories, and even family history.....the infant mortality rate was high. Of course, then there was WWI and WWII, which in many cases killed off two generations of European men in the same families......that does tend to keep the population in check.
Becky
10-17-2007, 12:39 PM
Great point Mykil. I think if you live in a mexican neighborhood you are going to notice the size of the mexican family as would be the same if you lived in any other area. Every neighborhood and every nationality and every religion may be up for judgment depending where you are and I think singling one race/ethic make up/religion is unfair.
Lets not forget about the blacks in those ghettos and the white trash in those trailers!! LMFAO!!! You know the ones that for no apparent reason don’t seem to know what birth control is? I feel putting blame on anyone is a huge mistake and putting yourself above others is alwayz a bad sign, you may want to step back and take a look at whom you are and where on this lovely planet you actually came from! Mexicans, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims! If you mentioned one of these it was too many!!!!
<o:p></o:p>
Lets not forget about the blacks in those ghettos and the white trash in those trailers!! LMFAO!!! You know the ones that for no apparent reason don’t seem to know what birth control is? I feel putting blame on anyone is a huge mistake and putting yourself above others is alwayz a bad sign, you may want to step back and take a look at whom you are and where on this lovely planet you actually came from! Mexicans, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims! If you mentioned one of these it was too many!!!!
<o:p></o:p>
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 01:56 PM
Great point Mykil. I think if you live in a mexican neighborhood you are going to notice the size of the mexican family as would be the same if you lived in any other area. Every neighborhood and every nationality and every religion may be up for judgment depending where you are and I think singling one race/ethic make up/religion is unfair.
In response to both you and Mykel:
It's not about judgement.........it's about belief systems that ultimately hurt the planet......and yes....there's plenty of blame to go around which was exactly my point. And.....speaking of judgments........You have no idea if I'm white, black, or semetic in origin. You have no idea what kind of neighborhoods I grew up in once in the US or whether or not I ever lived in a trailer park.....or even what my religious background is. So, before you decide I'm feeling "superior"......you might need a bit more information.
We've reached a point of political correctness where any observations regarding culture, religious beliefs, etc. are judgements. When my family first resided in the US, late 1950's, anyone who held opinions that were the politically incorrect ones of the era, was a "Communist".....now.....they're judgmental and consider themselves "superior".
As far as those who don't know what birth control is.........no one tells them.....that kind of sex education is not given....has little to do with where they live or their economic strata. Another one of the points made along this thread.
In response to both you and Mykel:
It's not about judgement.........it's about belief systems that ultimately hurt the planet......and yes....there's plenty of blame to go around which was exactly my point. And.....speaking of judgments........You have no idea if I'm white, black, or semetic in origin. You have no idea what kind of neighborhoods I grew up in once in the US or whether or not I ever lived in a trailer park.....or even what my religious background is. So, before you decide I'm feeling "superior"......you might need a bit more information.
We've reached a point of political correctness where any observations regarding culture, religious beliefs, etc. are judgements. When my family first resided in the US, late 1950's, anyone who held opinions that were the politically incorrect ones of the era, was a "Communist".....now.....they're judgmental and consider themselves "superior".
As far as those who don't know what birth control is.........no one tells them.....that kind of sex education is not given....has little to do with where they live or their economic strata. Another one of the points made along this thread.
Zeno Swijtink
10-17-2007, 03:07 PM
According to the article I posted, "Optimism and Overpopulation,"
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
it has all little to do with availability of contraception or with religion.
Ireland has been and still is a pretty catholic country. However
"In Ireland land became scarce relative to the rapidly growing population in the early nineteenth century, whereupon fertility began a retreat to its low, pre-potato level. By 1830 only about two thirds of women married before age twenty-five. Ten percent married this young in 1851 -- a drastic postponement of marriage in response to the 1846-1851 potato famine. Following a brief recovery, as few as 12 percent married before age twenty-five. The pattern of late marriage persisted from about 1890 through the Second World War."
Root cause of how many children people have is how they perceive their economic prospects, what resources they think they need to raise a kid.
"Without the motivation to limit family size, access to modern contraception is nearly irrelevant. For six years in the 1950s a project directed by the British researcher John Wyon provided several villages in northern India with family-planning education, access to contraception, and medical care. The villagers had positive attitudes toward the health-care providers and toward family planning, and infant mortality had fallen way down. But the fertility rate stayed way up.
Wyon's group soon figured out why: the villagers liked large families. They were delighted that now, with lower infant mortality, they could have the six surviving children they had always wanted. The well-funded Wyon project may even have reinforced the preference for large families, by playing a part in making extra children affordable."
This is what careful demographic research shows. It's not enough to depend on what ones sees in one's neighborhood, without talking to the people.
Contraception is secondary to birth control.
"Elsewhere the demand for modern contraception is also rising, and again the reason seems to be that couples view early marriage and large families as unaffordable. In his new book, Critical Masses, the journalist George D. Moffett reports that a mother of two in Mexico defended her use of contraception before a village priest by explaining, "Things are difficult here. A majority of people are having hard times. Jobs are hard to come by." Similarly, a day laborer in Thailand, in the words of Moffett, "would like to have one more child, but he understands that that is beyond his means.""
Modern contraception has had a greater impact on people having more sex, with more partners. There always have been ways to limit the number of children in harsh economic times, including abortion, abstention, interruptus, occlusive pessaries, etc.
I venture that girls who get pregnant in high school, are for the most already ambivalent or positive about having a baby (unless there is rape involved of course). Girls who are bent on avoiding pregnancy will on the whole not get in the family way.
In the USA, "75 pregnancies occur every year per 1,000 women aged 15-19. (...) Teen pregnancy rates are much higher in the United States than in many other developed countries-twice as high as in England and Wales or Canada, and eight times as high as in the Netherlands or Japan. (...) Eleven percent of all U.S. births are to teens." (https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ATSRH.html)
I explain this difference not by the more easy access to birth control or the better sexual education in the Netherlands and Japan (although this may play a minor role) but by the fact that being a teen mother is somehow a relatively more attractive live style here. This may be because of the paucity of vocational education, or the lack of some other more attractive alternatives.
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
it has all little to do with availability of contraception or with religion.
Ireland has been and still is a pretty catholic country. However
"In Ireland land became scarce relative to the rapidly growing population in the early nineteenth century, whereupon fertility began a retreat to its low, pre-potato level. By 1830 only about two thirds of women married before age twenty-five. Ten percent married this young in 1851 -- a drastic postponement of marriage in response to the 1846-1851 potato famine. Following a brief recovery, as few as 12 percent married before age twenty-five. The pattern of late marriage persisted from about 1890 through the Second World War."
Root cause of how many children people have is how they perceive their economic prospects, what resources they think they need to raise a kid.
"Without the motivation to limit family size, access to modern contraception is nearly irrelevant. For six years in the 1950s a project directed by the British researcher John Wyon provided several villages in northern India with family-planning education, access to contraception, and medical care. The villagers had positive attitudes toward the health-care providers and toward family planning, and infant mortality had fallen way down. But the fertility rate stayed way up.
Wyon's group soon figured out why: the villagers liked large families. They were delighted that now, with lower infant mortality, they could have the six surviving children they had always wanted. The well-funded Wyon project may even have reinforced the preference for large families, by playing a part in making extra children affordable."
This is what careful demographic research shows. It's not enough to depend on what ones sees in one's neighborhood, without talking to the people.
Contraception is secondary to birth control.
"Elsewhere the demand for modern contraception is also rising, and again the reason seems to be that couples view early marriage and large families as unaffordable. In his new book, Critical Masses, the journalist George D. Moffett reports that a mother of two in Mexico defended her use of contraception before a village priest by explaining, "Things are difficult here. A majority of people are having hard times. Jobs are hard to come by." Similarly, a day laborer in Thailand, in the words of Moffett, "would like to have one more child, but he understands that that is beyond his means.""
Modern contraception has had a greater impact on people having more sex, with more partners. There always have been ways to limit the number of children in harsh economic times, including abortion, abstention, interruptus, occlusive pessaries, etc.
I venture that girls who get pregnant in high school, are for the most already ambivalent or positive about having a baby (unless there is rape involved of course). Girls who are bent on avoiding pregnancy will on the whole not get in the family way.
In the USA, "75 pregnancies occur every year per 1,000 women aged 15-19. (...) Teen pregnancy rates are much higher in the United States than in many other developed countries-twice as high as in England and Wales or Canada, and eight times as high as in the Netherlands or Japan. (...) Eleven percent of all U.S. births are to teens." (https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ATSRH.html)
I explain this difference not by the more easy access to birth control or the better sexual education in the Netherlands and Japan (although this may play a minor role) but by the fact that being a teen mother is somehow a relatively more attractive live style here. This may be because of the paucity of vocational education, or the lack of some other more attractive alternatives.
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 04:55 PM
According to the article I posted, "Optimism and Overpopulation,"
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
it has all little to do with availability of contraception or with religion.
Ireland has been and still is a pretty catholic country. However...
Another assumption; I've only looked in my own neighborhood. No, many cemetaries, in many towns and cities, and in several countries...reading history books, anthropology books and....many family histories, not just mine. There are other books, articles, records and theories out there. "Scientists" have written theories about global warming not existing...some that it exists but has nothing to do with humans....some that it does exist, is harmful and mainly human caused. After reading the different "theories" and data, I've reached the conclusion it does exist, is caused mainly by humans (green house gases) and is harmful. Someone reaching different conclusions than you have does not mean they haven't done research.....or don't read.
Maybe, just maybe, it could be a combination of factors......and no single theory explains it completely. I tend to think this would be the case.
As far as the villagers in the Wylon Project, yes.....doesn't that qualify as cultural and belief system factors....they liked large families.....
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
it has all little to do with availability of contraception or with religion.
Ireland has been and still is a pretty catholic country. However...
Another assumption; I've only looked in my own neighborhood. No, many cemetaries, in many towns and cities, and in several countries...reading history books, anthropology books and....many family histories, not just mine. There are other books, articles, records and theories out there. "Scientists" have written theories about global warming not existing...some that it exists but has nothing to do with humans....some that it does exist, is harmful and mainly human caused. After reading the different "theories" and data, I've reached the conclusion it does exist, is caused mainly by humans (green house gases) and is harmful. Someone reaching different conclusions than you have does not mean they haven't done research.....or don't read.
Maybe, just maybe, it could be a combination of factors......and no single theory explains it completely. I tend to think this would be the case.
As far as the villagers in the Wylon Project, yes.....doesn't that qualify as cultural and belief system factors....they liked large families.....
Valley Oak
10-17-2007, 07:05 PM
I stand corrected!
Zeno, your posts are always excellently articulated, well referenced, well informed, and well argued. You probably make best the posts on the list when it comes to informational and logical subjects and debates.
Do you work for a public health agency or are you a research scientist for a corporation or some other entity?
Thank you for your bright contributions. They are consistently outstanding and tower over the rest.
Edward
According to the article I posted, "Optimism and Overpopulation,"
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
it has all little to do with availability of contraception or with religion.
Ireland has been and still is a pretty catholic country. However...
Zeno, your posts are always excellently articulated, well referenced, well informed, and well argued. You probably make best the posts on the list when it comes to informational and logical subjects and debates.
Do you work for a public health agency or are you a research scientist for a corporation or some other entity?
Thank you for your bright contributions. They are consistently outstanding and tower over the rest.
Edward
According to the article I posted, "Optimism and Overpopulation,"
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154
it has all little to do with availability of contraception or with religion.
Ireland has been and still is a pretty catholic country. However...
ChristineL
10-17-2007, 07:35 PM
yes, Christine, that was kind of my point
we have evolved from being a scavenging hunter with a lifespan of 25-30yrs,
into a 70-80 yr dominant predator.
we aren't just taking and poisoning other species sources of food away .
we are actively eliminating our own.
do you think the earth would be better off without humans?
Don't worry Lulu, in this country the medical care system will kill off a lot of the older people, or drain their finances until they end up living in "rabbit hutches" or cardboard boxes. That might help.
I agree we are eliminating our own sources of food.....
I don't dare answer that last question. I'm sure I don't have a totally "politically correct" response to it.
we have evolved from being a scavenging hunter with a lifespan of 25-30yrs,
into a 70-80 yr dominant predator.
we aren't just taking and poisoning other species sources of food away .
we are actively eliminating our own.
do you think the earth would be better off without humans?
Don't worry Lulu, in this country the medical care system will kill off a lot of the older people, or drain their finances until they end up living in "rabbit hutches" or cardboard boxes. That might help.
I agree we are eliminating our own sources of food.....
I don't dare answer that last question. I'm sure I don't have a totally "politically correct" response to it.
lynn
10-17-2007, 11:17 PM
Well, the dialogue about overpopulation in this State got killed, 'cause people started calling the environmentalists who brought up the issue 'racist', since a large part of our population growth is from Mexico - Latin Am. It's what happens when people are entrenched in their own political agendas, and blinded by stupid political BS. The environmentalists wimped out big-time, unfortunately.
Had my little letter about overpopulation published in the Bohemian this last week...
And also posted some thoughts on the wacco board a while back on the failure of 'environmentalism'...
I don't keep up on all the stats, but I think it sort of goes like this if things keep going...The European heritage 'group' is stabalizing pretty well...In fact in some places are 'downsizing', and the Pope had to open his stupid flap and encourage the Italians to procreate more, instead of pointing out to the world...That everyplace should be slowing down like they are in Italy!...The Chinese are at the top, Indians are following at a ridiculous speed...And in case you haven't been around since 9/11 many Muslims are happy procreating like crazy, 'cause some of them would like to make the whole world become Muslim - so they can have more women to beat up, and stop that dreaded practice of letting them drive!!...
Many Latins still want CA. and the Southwest territory to become part of Mexico again...With the current 'North American Union' push...That just might happen in the not to distant future...Oh, boy, then we can look forward to the Catholic Church becoming more oppressive to women like they are in Latin America, and those nice drug lords assasinating journalists in front of their kids, and Sherriffs who want to put a stop to their wonderful Mafia business.
Oh, well....
Had my little letter about overpopulation published in the Bohemian this last week...
And also posted some thoughts on the wacco board a while back on the failure of 'environmentalism'...
I don't keep up on all the stats, but I think it sort of goes like this if things keep going...The European heritage 'group' is stabalizing pretty well...In fact in some places are 'downsizing', and the Pope had to open his stupid flap and encourage the Italians to procreate more, instead of pointing out to the world...That everyplace should be slowing down like they are in Italy!...The Chinese are at the top, Indians are following at a ridiculous speed...And in case you haven't been around since 9/11 many Muslims are happy procreating like crazy, 'cause some of them would like to make the whole world become Muslim - so they can have more women to beat up, and stop that dreaded practice of letting them drive!!...
Many Latins still want CA. and the Southwest territory to become part of Mexico again...With the current 'North American Union' push...That just might happen in the not to distant future...Oh, boy, then we can look forward to the Catholic Church becoming more oppressive to women like they are in Latin America, and those nice drug lords assasinating journalists in front of their kids, and Sherriffs who want to put a stop to their wonderful Mafia business.
Oh, well....
lynn
10-18-2007, 12:04 AM
I have had a lot of conversations with people, throughout the years, about population control. I remember it was more of an issue in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s but then awareness and concern waned. Don't know why.
I posted one of the main reasons for this in the above previous post...
Also, I imagine that some of the predictions that some environmentalists made that didn't even come close to being accurate, put a lid on the topic...Made the topic seem even stupid to consider again...Hey, the predictions were outrageous, we aren't even close to that kind of disaster, we are doing fine, living longer than ever etc. etc...that sort of thing...
And the bottom line is...We are a selfish species...If we want 3 or 10 kids, well, we will have them if we can...
For some sites, that deal with the overpopulation issue, I recommend....
https://growthmadness.org/
Believe it or not...a religious site, that actually deals with this topic...
https://www.religiousconsultation.org/index.html
I posted one of the main reasons for this in the above previous post...
Also, I imagine that some of the predictions that some environmentalists made that didn't even come close to being accurate, put a lid on the topic...Made the topic seem even stupid to consider again...Hey, the predictions were outrageous, we aren't even close to that kind of disaster, we are doing fine, living longer than ever etc. etc...that sort of thing...
And the bottom line is...We are a selfish species...If we want 3 or 10 kids, well, we will have them if we can...
For some sites, that deal with the overpopulation issue, I recommend....
https://growthmadness.org/
Believe it or not...a religious site, that actually deals with this topic...
https://www.religiousconsultation.org/index.html
Becky
10-18-2007, 12:37 AM
well when the time comes and the world is really over populated and we are about to have this kind of huge disaster maybe we will have developed the technology to start living in outer space or another planet. Then again nature might have another plan and the world will have another huge natural disaster which will wipe out most of the world population and we will have to start all over again. After all the scientist are saying we are way over due for a huge natural disaster and great plague of some kind. I just hope to be elderly or dead when/if that happens.
Also, I imagine that some of the predictions that some environmentalists made that didn't even come close to being accurate, put a lid on the topic...Made the topic seem even stupid to consider again...Hey, the predictions were outrageous, we aren't even close to that kind of disaster, we are doing fine, living longer than ever etc. etc...that sort of thing...
And the bottom line is...We are a selfish species...If we want 3 or 10 kids, well, we will have them if we can...
Also, I imagine that some of the predictions that some environmentalists made that didn't even come close to being accurate, put a lid on the topic...Made the topic seem even stupid to consider again...Hey, the predictions were outrageous, we aren't even close to that kind of disaster, we are doing fine, living longer than ever etc. etc...that sort of thing...
And the bottom line is...We are a selfish species...If we want 3 or 10 kids, well, we will have them if we can...
Zeno Swijtink
10-18-2007, 12:49 AM
Why do we have this overpopulation in West County?
It's all explained by this article: Having Sex Daily 'Improves a Man's Fertility' (https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416795-details/Having+sex+daily+%27improves+a+man%27s+fertility%27/article.do)
It's all explained by this article: Having Sex Daily 'Improves a Man's Fertility' (https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416795-details/Having+sex+daily+%27improves+a+man%27s+fertility%27/article.do)
ThePhiant
10-18-2007, 08:13 AM
It's all explained by this article: Having Sex Daily 'Improves a Man's Fertility' (https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416795-details/Having+sex+daily+%27improves+a+man%27s+fertility%27/article.do)
"If sperm is released in a steady stream, the sperm that is ejaculated contains newer and less- damaged cells."
how much of a break should I give my guy as to not interrupt his stream of conscientiousness, Zeno?
"If sperm is released in a steady stream, the sperm that is ejaculated contains newer and less- damaged cells."
how much of a break should I give my guy as to not interrupt his stream of conscientiousness, Zeno?
Braggi
10-18-2007, 08:15 AM
Why do we have this overpopulation in West County?
It's all explained by this article: Having Sex Daily 'Improves a Man's Fertility' (https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416795-details/Having+sex+daily+%27improves+a+man%27s+fertility%27/article.do)
You're joking, right?
-Jeff
It's all explained by this article: Having Sex Daily 'Improves a Man's Fertility' (https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416795-details/Having+sex+daily+%27improves+a+man%27s+fertility%27/article.do)
You're joking, right?
-Jeff
ThePhiant
10-18-2007, 08:17 AM
Why is this suddenly becoming about Mexicans? Let's see, we have the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and many others whose religious beliefs lead to having many offspring.
Christine, I was responding to Zeno's question about immigrants.
the reason religious people want to increase their numbers is simple. it is a fast way to become a majority to further your goal. that is why we have missionaries and crusades
Christine, I was responding to Zeno's question about immigrants.
the reason religious people want to increase their numbers is simple. it is a fast way to become a majority to further your goal. that is why we have missionaries and crusades
Braggi
10-18-2007, 09:03 AM
Also, I imagine that some of the predictions that some environmentalists made that didn't even come close to being accurate, put a lid on the topic...Made the topic seem even stupid to consider again...Hey, the predictions were outrageous, we aren't even close to that kind of disaster, we are doing fine, living longer than ever etc. etc...that sort of thing...
Lynn, where have you been? All the predictions the environmentalists made 20 or 30 years ago have already come true or are in process. Fresh water is disappearing worldwide, fertile soils are going away at an alarming rate, deforestation is nearly global, hundreds of millions of people are living in squalor, at least tens of millions are living in refugee camps, millions are dying of diseases caused by lack of clean water and food, epidemics of drug resistant diseases are breaking out around the world, the planetary food supply is now dependent on oil-a commodity whose supply is failing ... I won't go on. Oh, yes I will ... the oceans are dying. How do you kill something so huge? Go down to the Mississippi delta and look for something alive in the Gulf. It's now a "dead zone." Dead zones are now appearing along coastlines worldwide.
The root of most of this is corporate greed and political corruption more than overpopulation, but we (humans) are too uncivilized to support the population we have.
Overpopulation and our failure to develop sustainable lifestyles are killing the ability of our planet to feed us. Yes, here in the US and in Europe we live longer, healthier lives than ever before, but we do this by raping and pillaging the rest of the world. Our lifestyles are unsustainable and we are now borrowing against the future in such vast amounts we may soon lose our dominance. Here comes China and the rest of Asia. They may demand repayment. What will we pay them with?
I predict a lot of trouble. I hope I'm wrong.
-Jeff
PS. I heard yesterday that MRSA (that terrible drug resistant staph infection) now kills more people in the US each year than HIV/AIDS.
PPS. Here's a disturbing article on plastic in the ocean:https://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Ocean/Sea-Plastic-LN-PG5oct05.htm
and another: https://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/brokenpromises/288097_plastic10.asp
and another: https://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Po-Re/Pollution-of-the-Ocean-by-Plastic-and-Trash.html
This one is kind of sadly hilarious as this Google ad appeared: Water Pollution (https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BLnGCu4EXR-bmH43-mwTL14HiBY7p7Cze6-C4A8CNtwHAuAIQAhgCIIGm9AEoFDgAUOqZ17QBYMmW-4bIo6AZsgEZd3d3LndhdGVyZW5jeWNsb3BlZGlhLmNvbcgBAdoBV2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2F0ZXJlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tL1BvLVJlL1BvbGx1dGlvbi1vZi10aGUtT2NlYW4tYnktUGxhc3RpYy1 hbmQtVHJhc2guaHRtbMgCls75AqgDAegDUugDlAXoA64B&num=2&adurl=https://shopping.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylc%3DX3oDMTFwcmpybWVsBF9TAzc4NDcxNjU2OARrA3dhdGVyIHBvbGx1dGlvbgRvbW0DQnJvYWQEc2VjA2tiBHNsawN0aXRsZQ--%3Fview%3D1%26sem%3Dgoogle%26p%3Dwater%2Bpollution%26sp%3Dpall%26no_truncation%3D1&client=ca-pub-5788426211617053) - Compare Products, Prices & Stores. Water Pollution At Low Prices. (https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BLnGCu4EXR-bmH43-mwTL14HiBY7p7Cze6-C4A8CNtwHAuAIQAhgCIIGm9AEoFDgAUOqZ17QBYMmW-4bIo6AZsgEZd3d3LndhdGVyZW5jeWNsb3BlZGlhLmNvbcgBAdoBV2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2F0ZXJlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tL1BvLVJlL1BvbGx1dGlvbi1vZi10aGUtT2NlYW4tYnktUGxhc3RpYy1 hbmQtVHJhc2guaHRtbMgCls75AqgDAegDUugDlAXoA64B&num=2&adurl=https://shopping.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylc%3DX3oDMTFwcmpybWVsBF9TAzc4NDcxNjU2OARrA3dhdGVyIHBvbGx1dGlvbgRvbW0DQnJvYWQEc2VjA2tiBHNsawN0aXRsZQ--%3Fview%3D1%26sem%3Dgoogle%26p%3Dwater%2Bpollution%26sp%3Dpall%26no_truncation%3D1&client=ca-pub-5788426211617053) (www.Shopping.Yahoo.com (https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BLnGCu4EXR-bmH43-mwTL14HiBY7p7Cze6-C4A8CNtwHAuAIQAhgCIIGm9AEoFDgAUOqZ17QBYMmW-4bIo6AZsgEZd3d3LndhdGVyZW5jeWNsb3BlZGlhLmNvbcgBAdoBV2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2F0ZXJlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tL1BvLVJlL1BvbGx1dGlvbi1vZi10aGUtT2NlYW4tYnktUGxhc3RpYy1 hbmQtVHJhc2guaHRtbMgCls75AqgDAegDUugDlAXoA64B&num=2&adurl=https://shopping.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylc%3DX3oDMTFwcmpybWVsBF9TAzc4NDcxNjU2OARrA3dhdGVyIHBvbGx1dGlvbgRvbW0DQnJvYWQEc2VjA2tiBHNsawN0aXRsZQ--%3Fview%3D1%26sem%3Dgoogle%26p%3Dwater%2Bpollution%26sp%3Dpall%26no_truncation%3D1&client=ca-pub-5788426211617053))
Lynn, where have you been? All the predictions the environmentalists made 20 or 30 years ago have already come true or are in process. Fresh water is disappearing worldwide, fertile soils are going away at an alarming rate, deforestation is nearly global, hundreds of millions of people are living in squalor, at least tens of millions are living in refugee camps, millions are dying of diseases caused by lack of clean water and food, epidemics of drug resistant diseases are breaking out around the world, the planetary food supply is now dependent on oil-a commodity whose supply is failing ... I won't go on. Oh, yes I will ... the oceans are dying. How do you kill something so huge? Go down to the Mississippi delta and look for something alive in the Gulf. It's now a "dead zone." Dead zones are now appearing along coastlines worldwide.
The root of most of this is corporate greed and political corruption more than overpopulation, but we (humans) are too uncivilized to support the population we have.
Overpopulation and our failure to develop sustainable lifestyles are killing the ability of our planet to feed us. Yes, here in the US and in Europe we live longer, healthier lives than ever before, but we do this by raping and pillaging the rest of the world. Our lifestyles are unsustainable and we are now borrowing against the future in such vast amounts we may soon lose our dominance. Here comes China and the rest of Asia. They may demand repayment. What will we pay them with?
I predict a lot of trouble. I hope I'm wrong.
-Jeff
PS. I heard yesterday that MRSA (that terrible drug resistant staph infection) now kills more people in the US each year than HIV/AIDS.
PPS. Here's a disturbing article on plastic in the ocean:https://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Ocean/Sea-Plastic-LN-PG5oct05.htm
and another: https://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/brokenpromises/288097_plastic10.asp
and another: https://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Po-Re/Pollution-of-the-Ocean-by-Plastic-and-Trash.html
This one is kind of sadly hilarious as this Google ad appeared: Water Pollution (https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BLnGCu4EXR-bmH43-mwTL14HiBY7p7Cze6-C4A8CNtwHAuAIQAhgCIIGm9AEoFDgAUOqZ17QBYMmW-4bIo6AZsgEZd3d3LndhdGVyZW5jeWNsb3BlZGlhLmNvbcgBAdoBV2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2F0ZXJlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tL1BvLVJlL1BvbGx1dGlvbi1vZi10aGUtT2NlYW4tYnktUGxhc3RpYy1 hbmQtVHJhc2guaHRtbMgCls75AqgDAegDUugDlAXoA64B&num=2&adurl=https://shopping.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylc%3DX3oDMTFwcmpybWVsBF9TAzc4NDcxNjU2OARrA3dhdGVyIHBvbGx1dGlvbgRvbW0DQnJvYWQEc2VjA2tiBHNsawN0aXRsZQ--%3Fview%3D1%26sem%3Dgoogle%26p%3Dwater%2Bpollution%26sp%3Dpall%26no_truncation%3D1&client=ca-pub-5788426211617053) - Compare Products, Prices & Stores. Water Pollution At Low Prices. (https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BLnGCu4EXR-bmH43-mwTL14HiBY7p7Cze6-C4A8CNtwHAuAIQAhgCIIGm9AEoFDgAUOqZ17QBYMmW-4bIo6AZsgEZd3d3LndhdGVyZW5jeWNsb3BlZGlhLmNvbcgBAdoBV2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2F0ZXJlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tL1BvLVJlL1BvbGx1dGlvbi1vZi10aGUtT2NlYW4tYnktUGxhc3RpYy1 hbmQtVHJhc2guaHRtbMgCls75AqgDAegDUugDlAXoA64B&num=2&adurl=https://shopping.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylc%3DX3oDMTFwcmpybWVsBF9TAzc4NDcxNjU2OARrA3dhdGVyIHBvbGx1dGlvbgRvbW0DQnJvYWQEc2VjA2tiBHNsawN0aXRsZQ--%3Fview%3D1%26sem%3Dgoogle%26p%3Dwater%2Bpollution%26sp%3Dpall%26no_truncation%3D1&client=ca-pub-5788426211617053) (www.Shopping.Yahoo.com (https://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BLnGCu4EXR-bmH43-mwTL14HiBY7p7Cze6-C4A8CNtwHAuAIQAhgCIIGm9AEoFDgAUOqZ17QBYMmW-4bIo6AZsgEZd3d3LndhdGVyZW5jeWNsb3BlZGlhLmNvbcgBAdoBV2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2F0ZXJlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tL1BvLVJlL1BvbGx1dGlvbi1vZi10aGUtT2NlYW4tYnktUGxhc3RpYy1 hbmQtVHJhc2guaHRtbMgCls75AqgDAegDUugDlAXoA64B&num=2&adurl=https://shopping.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylc%3DX3oDMTFwcmpybWVsBF9TAzc4NDcxNjU2OARrA3dhdGVyIHBvbGx1dGlvbgRvbW0DQnJvYWQEc2VjA2tiBHNsawN0aXRsZQ--%3Fview%3D1%26sem%3Dgoogle%26p%3Dwater%2Bpollution%26sp%3Dpall%26no_truncation%3D1&client=ca-pub-5788426211617053))
Willie Lumplump
10-18-2007, 09:44 AM
It's not about judgement.........it's about belief systems that ultimately hurt the planet. We've reached a point of political correctness where any observations regarding culture, religious beliefs, etc. are judgements.
Well spoken!
Well spoken!
Willie Lumplump
10-18-2007, 09:59 AM
Also, I imagine that some of the predictions that some environmentalists made that didn't even come close to being accurate, put a lid on the topic...Made the topic seem even stupid to consider again...Hey, the predictions were outrageous, we aren't even close to that kind of disaster, we are doing fine, living longer than ever etc. etc...that sort of thing...
Braggi asks where you've been. Where indeed? I've already posted that the earth is undergoing the greatest mass extinction event in the past 65 million years. Do you not consider that significant? The latest reports show that arctic ice is melting much faster than had been supposed, so fast in fact that the Arctic Ocean may be ice-free in summer as early as 2040. Do you understand the significance of that observation, its potential for worldwide catastrophe?<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
Braggi asks where you've been. Where indeed? I've already posted that the earth is undergoing the greatest mass extinction event in the past 65 million years. Do you not consider that significant? The latest reports show that arctic ice is melting much faster than had been supposed, so fast in fact that the Arctic Ocean may be ice-free in summer as early as 2040. Do you understand the significance of that observation, its potential for worldwide catastrophe?<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
mykil
10-18-2007, 10:28 AM
Will then Willie; Braggi, Zeno, and everyone else whom is way beyond being bright! Just how bad do you think this “no ice” thingy is going to be? What do you think we can expect in the near future? Do you think selling off any properties lying along the pacific coast might be conceded a good move, or do you think we are all pretty much doomed? How long do you think it will take for the ice to materialize once again? And will I have to buy an umbrella? What I am saying is what do you think we can expect here in Sonoma County? Three times the rain fall? Or can we start to see down right monsoons appear even in the summer months dropping twenty to fifty inches in as little as 24 hours? Will our small shacks in the coastal mountains be washed down the hills and will our rivers and streams be widened beyond believe? Or will it just be a mild irritation and we might not see the sun as much as we would like to?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Braggi asks where you've been. Where indeed? I've already posted that the earth is undergoing the greatest mass extinction event in the past 65 million years. Do you not consider that significant? The latest reports show that arctic ice is melting much faster than had been supposed, so fast in fact that the Arctic Ocean may be ice-free in summer as early as 2040. Do you understand the significance of that observation, its potential for worldwide catastrophe?<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
<o:p></o:p>
Braggi asks where you've been. Where indeed? I've already posted that the earth is undergoing the greatest mass extinction event in the past 65 million years. Do you not consider that significant? The latest reports show that arctic ice is melting much faster than had been supposed, so fast in fact that the Arctic Ocean may be ice-free in summer as early as 2040. Do you understand the significance of that observation, its potential for worldwide catastrophe?<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
Zeno Swijtink
10-18-2007, 11:04 AM
Will then Willie; Braggi, Zeno, and everyone else whom is way beyond being bright! Just how bad do you think this “no ice” thingy is going to be? What do you think we can expect in the near future? Do you think selling off any properties lying along the pacific coast might be conceded a good move, or do you think we are all pretty much doomed? How long do you think it will take for the ice to materialize once again? And will I have to buy an umbrella? What I am saying is what do you think we can expect here in Sonoma County? Three times the rain fall? Or can we start to see down right monsoons appear even in the summer months dropping twenty to fifty inches in as little as 24 hours? Will our small shacks in the coastal mountains be washed down the hills and will our rivers and streams be widened beyond believe? Or will it just be a mild irritation and we might not see the sun as much as we would like to?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There are now quite a lot of studies about regional impacts of Global Warming in California.
https://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/press_releases/text.asp?pid=138
https://meteora.ucsd.edu/cap/pdffiles/CA_climate_Scenarios.pdf
https://www.energy.ca.gov/2005publications/CEC-500-2005-103/CEC-500-2005-103-SD.PDF
<o:p></o:p>
There are now quite a lot of studies about regional impacts of Global Warming in California.
https://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/press_releases/text.asp?pid=138
https://meteora.ucsd.edu/cap/pdffiles/CA_climate_Scenarios.pdf
https://www.energy.ca.gov/2005publications/CEC-500-2005-103/CEC-500-2005-103-SD.PDF
lynn
10-18-2007, 11:24 AM
Hey Jeff and Wilie...
Lynn, where have you been? All the predictions the environmentalists made 20 or 30 years ago have already come true or are in process.
Braggi asks where you've been. Where indeed?
Jesus Christ, people...Where have I been?...I've been watching this state get more, and more overpopulated all the time...watchin' hillsides, and valleys get paved over since I was a kid!!...My paradise has already been paved over, and even more paradise here is going to get paved over!!...
And no, not all predictions came true...If I remember correctly, I think cities were suppose to be totally collapsing by now...like over a decade ago - all hell was suppose to break loose...It doesn't mean it won't, or can't happen...But, from what I've heard, many of the dire predictions did not come true...
And Jeff what makes you think I don't know all about the environmental stuff goin' on??...I KNOW!!!...I'm a freakin' tree hugger screamin' at city hall here...I wouldn't have to if the lame 'environmental movement' in this county had some balls!!...
And yes, a lot of problems are due to greed, overconsumption and corruption...But you just can't ignore the problem of overpopulation without things getting even worse...
Try lookin' through this...
https://www.sprawlcity.org/studyCA/index.html
take care,
lynn
Lynn, where have you been? All the predictions the environmentalists made 20 or 30 years ago have already come true or are in process.
Braggi asks where you've been. Where indeed?
Jesus Christ, people...Where have I been?...I've been watching this state get more, and more overpopulated all the time...watchin' hillsides, and valleys get paved over since I was a kid!!...My paradise has already been paved over, and even more paradise here is going to get paved over!!...
And no, not all predictions came true...If I remember correctly, I think cities were suppose to be totally collapsing by now...like over a decade ago - all hell was suppose to break loose...It doesn't mean it won't, or can't happen...But, from what I've heard, many of the dire predictions did not come true...
And Jeff what makes you think I don't know all about the environmental stuff goin' on??...I KNOW!!!...I'm a freakin' tree hugger screamin' at city hall here...I wouldn't have to if the lame 'environmental movement' in this county had some balls!!...
And yes, a lot of problems are due to greed, overconsumption and corruption...But you just can't ignore the problem of overpopulation without things getting even worse...
Try lookin' through this...
https://www.sprawlcity.org/studyCA/index.html
take care,
lynn
Becky
10-18-2007, 11:53 AM
I know, California is going to disappear into the ocean and Hollywood will be gone forever. So will all the little islands that cost $300,000 a week just to stay there. I know I shouldn't take this lightly but I'm in such a good mood today that I can't help myself. Really though if this does happen then we all are going to need to move to higher ground. I am a beach girl myself and would love to live there one day but seeing that the ice caps are melting I might have to buy property in Idaho to have beach front property when i retire. Break out the Canoe here I come!
Will then Willie; Braggi, Zeno, and everyone else whom is way beyond being bright! Just how bad do you think this “no ice” thingy is going to be? What do you think we can expect in the near future? Do you think selling off any properties lying along the pacific coast might be conceded a good move, or do you think we are all pretty much doomed? How long do you think it will take for the ice to materialize once again? And will I have to buy an umbrella? What I am saying is what do you think we can expect here in Sonoma County? Three times the rain fall? Or can we start to see down right monsoons appear even in the summer months dropping twenty to fifty inches in as little as 24 hours? Will our small shacks in the coastal mountains be washed down the hills and will our rivers and streams be widened beyond believe? Or will it just be a mild irritation and we might not see the sun as much as we would like to?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Will then Willie; Braggi, Zeno, and everyone else whom is way beyond being bright! Just how bad do you think this “no ice” thingy is going to be? What do you think we can expect in the near future? Do you think selling off any properties lying along the pacific coast might be conceded a good move, or do you think we are all pretty much doomed? How long do you think it will take for the ice to materialize once again? And will I have to buy an umbrella? What I am saying is what do you think we can expect here in Sonoma County? Three times the rain fall? Or can we start to see down right monsoons appear even in the summer months dropping twenty to fifty inches in as little as 24 hours? Will our small shacks in the coastal mountains be washed down the hills and will our rivers and streams be widened beyond believe? Or will it just be a mild irritation and we might not see the sun as much as we would like to?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
lynn
10-18-2007, 12:26 PM
Do you think selling off any properties lying along the pacific coast might be conceded a good move, or do you think we are all pretty much doomed? How long do you think it will take for the ice to materialize once again? And will I have to buy an umbrella? What I am saying is what do you think we can expect here in Sonoma County?
****
HA! Who knows...Maybe if we already weren't so overpopulated...we could all move a little inland, just in case...without much problem...
****
HA! Who knows...Maybe if we already weren't so overpopulated...we could all move a little inland, just in case...without much problem...
Willie Lumplump
10-18-2007, 12:58 PM
Will then Willie; Braggi, Zeno, and everyone else whom is way beyond being bright! Just how bad do you think this “no ice” thingy is going to be? What do you think we can expect in the near future? ...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The melting of the Arctic ice cap won't raise ocean levels because the ice there is floating. But melting of the Greenland ice cap would raise ocean levels, and that cap is melting at a faster pace that previously believed. The California coast is generally steep, so rising ocean levels wouldn't affect us as severely as it would people in, say Florida or Bangladesh. Effects of global warming on precipitation in this area are hard to predict. The northwest coast is predicted to be wetter, but I don't think we can expect torrents of rain here. All these predictions depend on the specific models used, and it seems that none of the present models account for the enormously accelerated ice melts that are now being observed.
<o:p></o:p>
The melting of the Arctic ice cap won't raise ocean levels because the ice there is floating. But melting of the Greenland ice cap would raise ocean levels, and that cap is melting at a faster pace that previously believed. The California coast is generally steep, so rising ocean levels wouldn't affect us as severely as it would people in, say Florida or Bangladesh. Effects of global warming on precipitation in this area are hard to predict. The northwest coast is predicted to be wetter, but I don't think we can expect torrents of rain here. All these predictions depend on the specific models used, and it seems that none of the present models account for the enormously accelerated ice melts that are now being observed.
Zeno Swijtink
10-18-2007, 01:10 PM
The melting of the Arctic ice cap won't raise ocean levels because the ice there is floating. But melting of the Greenland ice cap would raise ocean levels, and that cap is melting at a faster pace that previously believed. The California coast is generally steep, so rising ocean levels wouldn't affect us as severely as it would people in, say Florida or Bangladesh. Effects of global warming on precipitation in this area are hard to predict. The northwest coast is predicted to be wetter, but I don't think we can expect torrents of rain here. All these predictions depend on the specific models used, and it seems that none of the present models account for the enormously accelerated ice melts that are now being observed.
I agree, but think you are underplaying local effects of sea level rise.
Effects will be noticed in Bodega Harbor, Jenner, Petaluma, the SF Bay in general, the Sacramento Delta.
Here is a website you can play around with to see what impacts will be for different levels of sea level rise. You need to move the map to the Bay Area.
https://flood.firetree.net/
Note that these rises are averages. Impacts of variation are harder to model.
I agree, but think you are underplaying local effects of sea level rise.
Effects will be noticed in Bodega Harbor, Jenner, Petaluma, the SF Bay in general, the Sacramento Delta.
Here is a website you can play around with to see what impacts will be for different levels of sea level rise. You need to move the map to the Bay Area.
https://flood.firetree.net/
Note that these rises are averages. Impacts of variation are harder to model.
lynn
10-18-2007, 01:46 PM
Here's one blurb from the World Overpopulation Awareness site...
Sustainable Growth is Unsustainable - the Next Added 100 Million Americans - Part 14. So-called "sustainable growth" is unsustainable. Richard Stengel, of Time Magazine, wrote, “We need to continue growing but in smarter more sustainable ways.” Stengel illustrated our past population growth and projected adding 100 million people in three decades. He neglected to state that millions of those are immigrants from overpopulated countries that can't feed their populations. Stengel neglected to understand that you can't maintain a 'healthy' and 'sustainable' growing population ad infinitum. Let's get down to brass tacks on the absurdity of unending growth and sustainability! "Sustainable growth" implies "increasing endlessly," which is an oxymoron. Enormous problems and suffering are being experienced every day throughout the underdeveloped world. Is it possible to have an increase in economic activity without having increases in the rates of consumption of nonrenewable resources. Sustainable development can only be pursued if population size and growth are in harmony with the changing productive potential of the ecosystem. The issue is not just numbers of people, but how those numbers relate to available resources. Urgent steps are needed to limit population growth. There's no way we need to or can add 100 million people to the United States by 2040. America walks on the thin ice edge of our own demise with 300 million people. We either stabilize our population, or become victims of our own numbers. We cannot sustain unlimited growth. We cannot add 40 million more people to California and think we can provide water for all to live a decent life. We must enact a 10 year moratorium on all immigration. We must develop alternative energy at breakneck speed. We are approaching desertification, rising sea level, habitat destruction, the disappearance of sea life, and wars over drinking water. Growth is adding one billion people to our planet every 12 years, 90% from the developing world. Millions are forced to migrate, straining the infrastructure and good will of richer nations. December 28, 2006 NewsWithViews.com
https://www.overpopulation.org/whyPopMatters.html
****
In other words....STOP...Just STOP!!...We don't need more growth!!...We've already got too many people, too much stuff, and waaaayy too much plastic shit...
NOW, if so called environmentalists would get off their duff, and address the issue aggressively to local, state, and nations gov'ts!!...It might help a little...
Sustainable Growth is Unsustainable - the Next Added 100 Million Americans - Part 14. So-called "sustainable growth" is unsustainable. Richard Stengel, of Time Magazine, wrote, “We need to continue growing but in smarter more sustainable ways.” Stengel illustrated our past population growth and projected adding 100 million people in three decades. He neglected to state that millions of those are immigrants from overpopulated countries that can't feed their populations. Stengel neglected to understand that you can't maintain a 'healthy' and 'sustainable' growing population ad infinitum. Let's get down to brass tacks on the absurdity of unending growth and sustainability! "Sustainable growth" implies "increasing endlessly," which is an oxymoron. Enormous problems and suffering are being experienced every day throughout the underdeveloped world. Is it possible to have an increase in economic activity without having increases in the rates of consumption of nonrenewable resources. Sustainable development can only be pursued if population size and growth are in harmony with the changing productive potential of the ecosystem. The issue is not just numbers of people, but how those numbers relate to available resources. Urgent steps are needed to limit population growth. There's no way we need to or can add 100 million people to the United States by 2040. America walks on the thin ice edge of our own demise with 300 million people. We either stabilize our population, or become victims of our own numbers. We cannot sustain unlimited growth. We cannot add 40 million more people to California and think we can provide water for all to live a decent life. We must enact a 10 year moratorium on all immigration. We must develop alternative energy at breakneck speed. We are approaching desertification, rising sea level, habitat destruction, the disappearance of sea life, and wars over drinking water. Growth is adding one billion people to our planet every 12 years, 90% from the developing world. Millions are forced to migrate, straining the infrastructure and good will of richer nations. December 28, 2006 NewsWithViews.com
https://www.overpopulation.org/whyPopMatters.html
****
In other words....STOP...Just STOP!!...We don't need more growth!!...We've already got too many people, too much stuff, and waaaayy too much plastic shit...
NOW, if so called environmentalists would get off their duff, and address the issue aggressively to local, state, and nations gov'ts!!...It might help a little...
Zeno Swijtink
10-18-2007, 01:59 PM
****
In other words....STOP...Just STOP!!...We don't need more growth!!...We've already got too many people, too much stuff, and waaaayy too much plastic shit...
NOW, if so called environmentalists would get off their duff, and address the issue aggressively to local, state, and nations gov'ts!!...It might help a little...
Lynn, you appear yourself somewhat of an environmentalist, but in your language you set yourself apart from them. What's going on?
In other words....STOP...Just STOP!!...We don't need more growth!!...We've already got too many people, too much stuff, and waaaayy too much plastic shit...
NOW, if so called environmentalists would get off their duff, and address the issue aggressively to local, state, and nations gov'ts!!...It might help a little...
Lynn, you appear yourself somewhat of an environmentalist, but in your language you set yourself apart from them. What's going on?
Braggi
10-18-2007, 09:37 PM
Jesus Christ, people...Where have I been?...I've been watching this state get more, and more overpopulated all the time...watchin' hillsides, and valleys get paved over since I was a kid!!...My paradise has already been paved over, and even more paradise here is going to get paved over!!...
Well, then, I have trouble understanding why you made that post.
And no, not all predictions came true...If I remember correctly, I think cities were suppose to be totally collapsing by now...like over a decade ago - all hell was suppose to break loose...It doesn't mean it won't, or can't happen...But, from what I've heard, many of the dire predictions did not come true...
Predictions didn't come true? Compared to what? Scientists in other fields? Politicians? Stock market analysts? I'd say the environmental scientists have been better at predicting what's happening in the world than just about anybody else. The only question is how fast these things are happening, not whether they are.
It's interesting in this conversation that Zeno covers the world (which, for purposes of this discussion I think is an error), and you, Lynn, seem only to notice what's happening locally. If you look at the major cities in Mexico, Egypt, China, India, take your pick, all Hel broke loose long ago. Go to the major cities in Brazil. Homeless street children are shot dead just to get rid of them. Try calling a cop to follow up on it. Lawlessness is the rule of the day. Human life does not have the value in these big cities that it does here in the US.
And Jeff what makes you think I don't know all about the environmental stuff goin' on??...I KNOW!!!...I'm a freakin' tree hugger screamin' at city hall here...
Oh! That's good. I was worried about you for a minute there. :wink:
And yes, a lot of problems are due to greed, overconsumption and corruption...But you just can't ignore the problem of overpopulation without things getting even worse...
And just think, if more of us lived by permaculture methods, or even bought local produce and grew some of our own, the world could support a whole lot of people sustainably. We have a lot of work to do.
The best thing to do soon is reduce population, I agree. Not reduce growth, but total population because we've outgrown our maturity as a culture (if we ever had any).
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
-Jeff
Well, then, I have trouble understanding why you made that post.
And no, not all predictions came true...If I remember correctly, I think cities were suppose to be totally collapsing by now...like over a decade ago - all hell was suppose to break loose...It doesn't mean it won't, or can't happen...But, from what I've heard, many of the dire predictions did not come true...
Predictions didn't come true? Compared to what? Scientists in other fields? Politicians? Stock market analysts? I'd say the environmental scientists have been better at predicting what's happening in the world than just about anybody else. The only question is how fast these things are happening, not whether they are.
It's interesting in this conversation that Zeno covers the world (which, for purposes of this discussion I think is an error), and you, Lynn, seem only to notice what's happening locally. If you look at the major cities in Mexico, Egypt, China, India, take your pick, all Hel broke loose long ago. Go to the major cities in Brazil. Homeless street children are shot dead just to get rid of them. Try calling a cop to follow up on it. Lawlessness is the rule of the day. Human life does not have the value in these big cities that it does here in the US.
And Jeff what makes you think I don't know all about the environmental stuff goin' on??...I KNOW!!!...I'm a freakin' tree hugger screamin' at city hall here...
Oh! That's good. I was worried about you for a minute there. :wink:
And yes, a lot of problems are due to greed, overconsumption and corruption...But you just can't ignore the problem of overpopulation without things getting even worse...
And just think, if more of us lived by permaculture methods, or even bought local produce and grew some of our own, the world could support a whole lot of people sustainably. We have a lot of work to do.
The best thing to do soon is reduce population, I agree. Not reduce growth, but total population because we've outgrown our maturity as a culture (if we ever had any).
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
-Jeff
ThePhiant
10-18-2007, 10:11 PM
The best thing to do soon is reduce population, I agree. Not reduce growth, but total population because we've outgrown our maturity as a culture (if we ever had any).
Reduce the population?
lottery tickets for who gets to go first?
do we go by color or handicap?
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
don't keep the suspense, let us all know what you know!
Reduce the population?
lottery tickets for who gets to go first?
do we go by color or handicap?
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
don't keep the suspense, let us all know what you know!
Braggi
10-19-2007, 07:40 AM
.
Reduce the population?
lottery tickets for who gets to go first?
do we go by color or handicap?
[quote]
don't keep the suspense, let us all know what you know!Oh, we don't have to kill anybody off. We die in pretty great numbers every day. We just have to limit our procreation.
Birth rates drop to a negative level in every culture when that culture becomes fully industrialized. Look at the nations where populations are now in decline: Japan, the most industrialized European countries, and the United States (except for immigration).
Along with industrialization comes the education of and empowerment of women. Information about and access to medical care, including birth control, goes hand in hand with industrialization. It's sad to think that in order to come into harmony with Nature (as far as our numbers are concerned) we have to totally subdue her. Or, perhaps that's Her revenge. We subdue the fertility of our environment, and then She subdues our fertility. However you look at it ...
Cultures that are repressive to women and attempt to limit the education of women, including our own culture, have social and political clashes along the way. Thankfully, the strength of women and the men who support them always comes through eventually. The cultures that are the most repressive to women also have the highest birth rates.
So the path to sanity is the path that empowers women.
-Jeff
Reduce the population?
lottery tickets for who gets to go first?
do we go by color or handicap?
[quote]
don't keep the suspense, let us all know what you know!Oh, we don't have to kill anybody off. We die in pretty great numbers every day. We just have to limit our procreation.
Birth rates drop to a negative level in every culture when that culture becomes fully industrialized. Look at the nations where populations are now in decline: Japan, the most industrialized European countries, and the United States (except for immigration).
Along with industrialization comes the education of and empowerment of women. Information about and access to medical care, including birth control, goes hand in hand with industrialization. It's sad to think that in order to come into harmony with Nature (as far as our numbers are concerned) we have to totally subdue her. Or, perhaps that's Her revenge. We subdue the fertility of our environment, and then She subdues our fertility. However you look at it ...
Cultures that are repressive to women and attempt to limit the education of women, including our own culture, have social and political clashes along the way. Thankfully, the strength of women and the men who support them always comes through eventually. The cultures that are the most repressive to women also have the highest birth rates.
So the path to sanity is the path that empowers women.
-Jeff
alanora
10-19-2007, 10:35 AM
Zero population growth is the idea, not doing away with those that are here. Takes into account changing fertility rates and death rates and wars etc. Stop assuming that each one need beget one. I suggested birth control in mcdonalds now as it would hasten the survival of the fittest plan as those who frequent the establishment will no longer reproduce and the general health of our population would also improve as a result...a sarcastic judgment call that I find funny as there is great truth in there somewhere. :hmmm:
Hummingbear
10-20-2007, 06:39 PM
A few days ago, I might have said that there's still hope that something can be done about this. Now, I believe it's too late.
What turned my head is the news (not really news, but more widely reported now) about the rate of ice melt on Greenland:
https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/19/MNVASLK4D.DTL
If you've seen (or read) "An Inconvenient Truth", you know that the melting of the ice on Greenland will raise the oceans by about 20 feet. Gore thought we had time to reverse this process. Now it's clear that we don't; the inundation will happen in a few years, not centuries or even decades.
That means that hundreds of millions, maybe a billion people, will be looking for new places to live, at a time when infrastructure like ports and energy plants will be vanishing. That's social chaos on an unimaginable scale. A lot of those people will die, and the survivors in many cases will be using violence to secure new homes. Because we just don't have a lot of room for that many people to go.
So, the "potential' disaster is right around the corner. And there's not much we can do, as far as I can see, except move to high ground if you can.
What turned my head is the news (not really news, but more widely reported now) about the rate of ice melt on Greenland:
https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/19/MNVASLK4D.DTL
If you've seen (or read) "An Inconvenient Truth", you know that the melting of the ice on Greenland will raise the oceans by about 20 feet. Gore thought we had time to reverse this process. Now it's clear that we don't; the inundation will happen in a few years, not centuries or even decades.
That means that hundreds of millions, maybe a billion people, will be looking for new places to live, at a time when infrastructure like ports and energy plants will be vanishing. That's social chaos on an unimaginable scale. A lot of those people will die, and the survivors in many cases will be using violence to secure new homes. Because we just don't have a lot of room for that many people to go.
So, the "potential' disaster is right around the corner. And there's not much we can do, as far as I can see, except move to high ground if you can.
Willie Lumplump
10-20-2007, 09:22 PM
So, the "potential' disaster is right around the corner. And there's not much we can do, as far as I can see, except move to high ground if you can.
Perhaps too late to prevent one disaster but still time to prevent another. Some studies show that the Antarctic ice cap is also melting, as much as 36 cubic miles per year. And there's a lot more ice in Antarctica than in Greenland.
Perhaps too late to prevent one disaster but still time to prevent another. Some studies show that the Antarctic ice cap is also melting, as much as 36 cubic miles per year. And there's a lot more ice in Antarctica than in Greenland.
mykil
10-22-2007, 04:36 PM
Over the past few years I have been seriously contemplating writing my lovely children a letter of apology. The only thing that has stopped was procrastination to the max. The things I want to say and can’t quite get a reservation on are the fact that I am almost sorry I brought them into this fucked up environment. Not that I don’t love them, but more just the opposite. I love them more than time itself and I am just shocked about our surroundings and the fact that they might actually see the end of civilization, as we know it. For who really knows the outcome of the events at hand? I am not sure how to write this letter and really want them to understand and really be aware of my true meanings! I am sure they aren’t at the age where they can even take it all it yet they are brighter than I am can seewhat is go9ng down.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I purpose we all write this letter and make it to all the children of the world and publish it everywhere we can! Not that I want you all to do my dirty work, it’s more on the lines of this is a community that can do this and it needs to done in my opinion. I would love to hear what our apology as a whole would sound like and adhere too. It might make for a really dramatic resume for the world to really grasp a hold of and really put some meaning to our true talent and misunderstandings as environmentalists that we say we are!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I purpose we all write this letter and make it to all the children of the world and publish it everywhere we can! Not that I want you all to do my dirty work, it’s more on the lines of this is a community that can do this and it needs to done in my opinion. I would love to hear what our apology as a whole would sound like and adhere too. It might make for a really dramatic resume for the world to really grasp a hold of and really put some meaning to our true talent and misunderstandings as environmentalists that we say we are!
Becky
10-22-2007, 05:58 PM
Over the past few years I have been seriously contemplating writing my lovely children a letter of apology. The only thing that has stopped was procrastination to the max. The things I want to say and can’t quite get a reservation on are the fact that I am almost sorry I brought them into this fucked up environment. Not that I don’t love them, but more just the opposite. I love them more than time itself and I am just shocked about our surroundings and the fact that they might actually see the end of civilization, as we know it. For who really knows the outcome of the events at hand? I am not sure how to write this letter and really want them to understand and really be aware of my true meanings! I am sure they aren’t at the age where they can even take it all it yet they are brighter than I am can seewhat is go9ng down.
<o:p></o:p>
I purpose we all write this letter and make it to all the children of the world and publish it everywhere we can! Not that I want you all to do my dirty work, it’s more on the lines of this is a community that can do this and it needs to done in my opinion. I would love to hear what our apology as a whole would sound like and adhere too. It might make for a really dramatic resume for the world to really grasp a hold of and really put some meaning to our true talent and misunderstandings as environmentalists that we say we are!
I never really thought of this Mykil but that sounds like a wonderful idea.
<o:p></o:p>
I purpose we all write this letter and make it to all the children of the world and publish it everywhere we can! Not that I want you all to do my dirty work, it’s more on the lines of this is a community that can do this and it needs to done in my opinion. I would love to hear what our apology as a whole would sound like and adhere too. It might make for a really dramatic resume for the world to really grasp a hold of and really put some meaning to our true talent and misunderstandings as environmentalists that we say we are!
I never really thought of this Mykil but that sounds like a wonderful idea.
ThePhiant
10-22-2007, 09:14 PM
the only things you can apologize for are the things you didn't stop when you had a chance
-global warming
-increase the deficit
-increase pollution
-increase median home price
-elect Bushes
and so on,
but to give them front row seats to the end of civilization, that is something to be proud of!
Over the past few years I have been seriously contemplating writing my lovely children a letter of apology. The only thing that has stopped was procrastination to the max. The things I want to say and can’t quite get a reservation on are the fact that I am almost sorry I brought them into this fucked up environment. Not that I don’t love them, but more just the opposite. I love them more than time itself and I am just shocked about our surroundings and the fact that they might actually see the end of civilization, as we know it. For who really knows the outcome of the events at hand? I am not sure how to write this letter and really want them to understand and really be aware of my true meanings! I am sure they aren’t at the age where they can even take it all it yet they are brighter than I am can seewhat is go9ng down.
<o:p></o:p>
I purpose we all write this letter and make it to all the children of the world and publish it everywhere we can! Not that I want you all to do my dirty work, it’s more on the lines of this is a community that can do this and it needs to done in my opinion. I would love to hear what our apology as a whole would sound like and adhere too. It might make for a really dramatic resume for the world to really grasp a hold of and really put some meaning to our true talent and misunderstandings as environmentalists that we say we are!
-global warming
-increase the deficit
-increase pollution
-increase median home price
-elect Bushes
and so on,
but to give them front row seats to the end of civilization, that is something to be proud of!
Over the past few years I have been seriously contemplating writing my lovely children a letter of apology. The only thing that has stopped was procrastination to the max. The things I want to say and can’t quite get a reservation on are the fact that I am almost sorry I brought them into this fucked up environment. Not that I don’t love them, but more just the opposite. I love them more than time itself and I am just shocked about our surroundings and the fact that they might actually see the end of civilization, as we know it. For who really knows the outcome of the events at hand? I am not sure how to write this letter and really want them to understand and really be aware of my true meanings! I am sure they aren’t at the age where they can even take it all it yet they are brighter than I am can seewhat is go9ng down.
<o:p></o:p>
I purpose we all write this letter and make it to all the children of the world and publish it everywhere we can! Not that I want you all to do my dirty work, it’s more on the lines of this is a community that can do this and it needs to done in my opinion. I would love to hear what our apology as a whole would sound like and adhere too. It might make for a really dramatic resume for the world to really grasp a hold of and really put some meaning to our true talent and misunderstandings as environmentalists that we say we are!
Moon
10-22-2007, 09:59 PM
Predictions didn't come true? Compared to what? Scientists in other fields? Politicians? Stock market analysts? I'd say the environmental scientists have been better at predicting what's happening in the world than just about anybody else. The only question is how fast these things are happening, not whether they are.
It's interesting in this conversation that Zeno covers the world (which, for purposes of this discussion I think is an error), and you, Lynn, seem only to notice what's happening locally. If you look at the major cities in Mexico, Egypt, China, India, take your pick, all Hel broke loose long ago. Go to the major cities in Brazil. Homeless street children are shot dead just to get rid of them. Try calling a cop to follow up on it. Lawlessness is the rule of the day. Human life does not have the value in these big cities that it does here in the US.
Oh! That's good. I was worried about you for a minute there. :wink:
The best thing to do soon is reduce population, I agree. Not reduce growth, but total population because we've outgrown our maturity as a culture (if we ever had any).
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
-Jeff[/quote]
Well, what? I've heard that when telephone lines go in, the fertility rate starts declining.
What i'd really love is for the majority of womyn of childbearing potential in each country
to agree to bear no more children until its government verifiably gets rid of all nuclear
armaments. Eventually, it could make the world nuclearly disarmed, and in the meantime
it would produce maybe a twenty- to twenty-five-year near-hiatus on human births,
giving us, the polar bears and everyone else on this planet a little breathing space.
It's interesting in this conversation that Zeno covers the world (which, for purposes of this discussion I think is an error), and you, Lynn, seem only to notice what's happening locally. If you look at the major cities in Mexico, Egypt, China, India, take your pick, all Hel broke loose long ago. Go to the major cities in Brazil. Homeless street children are shot dead just to get rid of them. Try calling a cop to follow up on it. Lawlessness is the rule of the day. Human life does not have the value in these big cities that it does here in the US.
Oh! That's good. I was worried about you for a minute there. :wink:
The best thing to do soon is reduce population, I agree. Not reduce growth, but total population because we've outgrown our maturity as a culture (if we ever had any).
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
-Jeff[/quote]
Well, what? I've heard that when telephone lines go in, the fertility rate starts declining.
What i'd really love is for the majority of womyn of childbearing potential in each country
to agree to bear no more children until its government verifiably gets rid of all nuclear
armaments. Eventually, it could make the world nuclearly disarmed, and in the meantime
it would produce maybe a twenty- to twenty-five-year near-hiatus on human births,
giving us, the polar bears and everyone else on this planet a little breathing space.
mykil
10-23-2007, 12:56 PM
I was at a party several years back, a friend of mine was ranting and raving about the world coming to an end extremely soon. He was going on and had an audience around him, all talking politics and environmental issues. HE was going off on how we were all doomed and this was definitely the end. His young daughter turned to him and stated “Well daddy at least we will be able to see the end”. I laughed sooo hard, hew was stunned. HE didn’t know what to say. It sure shut him up in a hurry, I still remind him of that special moment on occasion when he starts up again. I laugh every time I think of it to this day! Just goes to show you there is a bright side to everything!!! LMAO!!!! LULU you have the mind of a child let me tell you something!!!! LMAO!!!
the only things you can apologize for are the things you didn't stop when you had a chance
-global warming
-increase the deficit
-increase pollution
-increase median home price
-elect Bushes
and so on,
but to give them front row seats to the end of civilization, that is something to be proud of!
the only things you can apologize for are the things you didn't stop when you had a chance
-global warming
-increase the deficit
-increase pollution
-increase median home price
-elect Bushes
and so on,
but to give them front row seats to the end of civilization, that is something to be proud of!
mykil
10-23-2007, 01:28 PM
Hey our lovely children; gather around, we have something to tell you. Please keep quiet and still this is important to us!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
The world was our playground and we fucked it up, it belongs to you know. Sorry to be blunt but there is no easy way to say what we have done with allot of it will be ok’s and we are sorry. WE cant possible be sorry enough. But we are. WE hope we haven’t killed you all we hope you can fix it! Make it a better place and please learn form out mistakes. This is just a few words off the top of my head someone take this and make it better and we can rewrite till everyone is satisfied!!!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
The world was our playground and we fucked it up, it belongs to you know. Sorry to be blunt but there is no easy way to say what we have done with allot of it will be ok’s and we are sorry. WE cant possible be sorry enough. But we are. WE hope we haven’t killed you all we hope you can fix it! Make it a better place and please learn form out mistakes. This is just a few words off the top of my head someone take this and make it better and we can rewrite till everyone is satisfied!!!
Willie Lumplump
10-23-2007, 07:09 PM
What i'd really love is for the majority of womyn of childbearing potential in each country to agree to bear no more children until its government verifiably gets rid of all nuclear armaments. Eventually, it could make the world nuclearly disarmed
The idea of withholding sex to promote peace comes to us from Aristophane's play, "Lysistrata," in which the heroine (Lysistrata) convinces the women of several Greek city-states to withhold sex to force their men to end the Peloponnesian Wars. It's a beautiful idea, and I think that women should get busy organizing to do exactly that. And if that doesn't work, I think that women should consider moving on to the Lorena Bobbitt solution. "Disarm or be dismembered."
The idea of withholding sex to promote peace comes to us from Aristophane's play, "Lysistrata," in which the heroine (Lysistrata) convinces the women of several Greek city-states to withhold sex to force their men to end the Peloponnesian Wars. It's a beautiful idea, and I think that women should get busy organizing to do exactly that. And if that doesn't work, I think that women should consider moving on to the Lorena Bobbitt solution. "Disarm or be dismembered."
mykil
10-23-2007, 07:50 PM
NO WOMAN CAN WITHSTAND MY CHARM!!! :ew:
The idea of withholding sex to promote peace comes to us from Aristophane's play, "Lysistrata," in which the heroine (Lysistrata) convinces the women of several Greek city-states to withhold sex to force their men to end the Peloponnesian Wars. It's a beautiful idea, and I think that women should get busy organizing to do exactly that. And if that doesn't work, I think that women should consider moving on to the Lorena Bobbitt solution. "Disarm or be dismembered."
The idea of withholding sex to promote peace comes to us from Aristophane's play, "Lysistrata," in which the heroine (Lysistrata) convinces the women of several Greek city-states to withhold sex to force their men to end the Peloponnesian Wars. It's a beautiful idea, and I think that women should get busy organizing to do exactly that. And if that doesn't work, I think that women should consider moving on to the Lorena Bobbitt solution. "Disarm or be dismembered."
Willie Lumplump
10-23-2007, 08:41 PM
NO WOMAN CAN WITHSTAND MY CHARM!!! :ew:
Maybe we can make your claim more accurate and believable by removing the "with."
Maybe we can make your claim more accurate and believable by removing the "with."
ThePhiant
10-23-2007, 09:00 PM
NO WOMAN CAN WITHSTAND MY CHARM!!!
maybe not your charm, but your.................................
:xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh: :xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh:
maybe not your charm, but your.................................
:xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh: :xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh::xtrmlaugh:
Braggi
10-23-2007, 09:12 PM
I know what makes population growth stop. Really.
-Jeff
Well, what? I've heard that when telephone lines go in, the fertility rate starts declining.
[/quote]
See post #64 above.
-Jeff
PS. I like the idea of empowered women taking on these issues. The men are failing to the point of global suicide.
-Jeff
Well, what? I've heard that when telephone lines go in, the fertility rate starts declining.
[/quote]
See post #64 above.
-Jeff
PS. I like the idea of empowered women taking on these issues. The men are failing to the point of global suicide.
lynn
10-24-2007, 11:45 PM
The idea of withholding sex to promote peace comes to us from Aristophane's play, "Lysistrata," in which the heroine (Lysistrata) convinces the women of several Greek city-states to withhold sex to force their men to end the Peloponnesian Wars. It's a beautiful idea, and I think that women should get busy organizing to do exactly that. And if that doesn't work, I think that women should consider moving on to the Lorena Bobbitt solution. "Disarm or be dismembered."
PS. I like the idea of empowered women taking on these issues. The men are failing to the point of global suicide.
*****
I've been wanting women to act out the 'Lysistrata' plan for a long time now...But, it hasn't happened...Women could really create some big changes by doing this...But, it looks like women are being just as stupid by putting up with all the BS....
I'm not so sure women are any less culpable when it comes to ego and abusing power...<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
PS. I like the idea of empowered women taking on these issues. The men are failing to the point of global suicide.
*****
I've been wanting women to act out the 'Lysistrata' plan for a long time now...But, it hasn't happened...Women could really create some big changes by doing this...But, it looks like women are being just as stupid by putting up with all the BS....
I'm not so sure women are any less culpable when it comes to ego and abusing power...<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
OrchardDweller
11-02-2007, 09:01 PM
Good news for all you Malthusians! Looks like there might already be a plan to reduce world population, drastically reduce it. I doubt that it's the plan you had in mind though.
ENDGAME (trailer)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9181999763079324354
ENDGAME (full movie)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261
ENDGAME (trailer)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9181999763079324354
ENDGAME (full movie)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261
lynn
11-04-2007, 12:14 AM
Orchard...Most 'plans' never turn out as planned...Of course no-one can know the future...Who knows what will happen...
But, yes...I sure don't trust the powers that be these days...Since history...It's always been a struggle between the powerful and enslaved on this planet...Nothing new there....We've just never yet had the mix of this many people, along with this knowledge of science and technology...
But, yes...I sure don't trust the powers that be these days...Since history...It's always been a struggle between the powerful and enslaved on this planet...Nothing new there....We've just never yet had the mix of this many people, along with this knowledge of science and technology...
Zeno Swijtink
11-04-2007, 01:56 PM
I wonder whether - as we have less and less children - we become more protective of the few we allow ourself.
In an article from the British paper The Guardian I placed on WaccoReader,
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27915
Tim Gill argues that we are creating "a zero-risk culture for our children from that over-protects and infantilises them at just the time they should be tasting freedom and taking responsibility."
My grandparents had 12 and 13 children, my parents had four, and I have two.
My children did certainly more supervised activities compared to their aunts and uncles, some of whom drowned in wells, fell of horses or suffocated in noxious gases that emanated from cow manure. My grandparents had a few to spare it seems.
In an article from the British paper The Guardian I placed on WaccoReader,
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27915
Tim Gill argues that we are creating "a zero-risk culture for our children from that over-protects and infantilises them at just the time they should be tasting freedom and taking responsibility."
My grandparents had 12 and 13 children, my parents had four, and I have two.
My children did certainly more supervised activities compared to their aunts and uncles, some of whom drowned in wells, fell of horses or suffocated in noxious gases that emanated from cow manure. My grandparents had a few to spare it seems.
nicofrog
11-09-2007, 12:22 PM
Everybody eat just one person and the problem is solved!
and don't forget to swallow there buddy!
and don't forget to swallow there buddy!
Willie Lumplump
11-09-2007, 02:31 PM
Everybody eat just one person and the problem is solved!
and don't forget to swallow there buddy!
The satirist Jonathan Swfit proposed a similar solution in his essay, "A Modest Proposal."
and don't forget to swallow there buddy!
The satirist Jonathan Swfit proposed a similar solution in his essay, "A Modest Proposal."
Tinque
11-10-2007, 12:33 AM
:heart::heart:
Everybody eat just one person and the problem is solved!
and don't forget to swallow there buddy!
I LOVE the Thought of being Eaten ! Don't YOU ? Or am I on the wrong page ? :heart::heart::heart:
Everybody eat just one person and the problem is solved!
and don't forget to swallow there buddy!
I LOVE the Thought of being Eaten ! Don't YOU ? Or am I on the wrong page ? :heart::heart::heart:
d-cat
11-22-2007, 07:34 PM
Thanks for the link Orchard Dweller - I've been waiting to see this.
Here is a video of a very interesting lecture the filmmaker gave at a private screening:
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6117517374252482311
Good news for all you Malthusians! Looks like there might already be a plan to reduce world population, drastically reduce it. I doubt that it's the plan you had in mind though.
ENDGAME (trailer)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9181999763079324354
ENDGAME (full movie)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261
Here is a video of a very interesting lecture the filmmaker gave at a private screening:
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6117517374252482311
Good news for all you Malthusians! Looks like there might already be a plan to reduce world population, drastically reduce it. I doubt that it's the plan you had in mind though.
ENDGAME (trailer)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9181999763079324354
ENDGAME (full movie)
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261
d-cat
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
here's an interesting article, originally posted at courierpostonline.com, but here is a link to the same article with some graphics to accompany it:
'Greens' movement may have darker agenda
https://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=2236
'Greens' movement may have darker agenda
https://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=2236
Braggi
11-26-2007, 08:51 PM
here's an interesting article, originally posted at courierpostonline.com, but here is a link to the same article with some graphics to accompany it:
'Greens' movement may have darker agenda
https://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=2236
I've been wondering what you're all about with this thread d-cat.
Let's check out this little tidbit from that "article,": "Mikhail Gorbachev, former Russian president, founder of the Gorbachev Foundation and head of Green Cross International, claims the environment crisis is the cornerstone of the new world order."
Now wait a minute. It was none other than YOUR president George Bush (OK, it was Papa Bush), who blurted out that secret before TV cameras (that he intended to establish a New World Order based on the cooperation purchased from other nations over invading Iraq). I think that's more of an anti-green concept as born out by the actions of Baby Bush.
And now we really get to the crux: "Is global warming "an inconvenient truth" or a convenient lie and the newest version of Chicken Little readying us for a Godless "new world order?""
Aha, a "Godless" new world order is what Al Gore wants, where The Leader wants us to have a Godly New World Order? Is that the difference?
If we must have a New World Order, please let it be a Godless one.
-Jeff
'Greens' movement may have darker agenda
https://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=2236
I've been wondering what you're all about with this thread d-cat.
Let's check out this little tidbit from that "article,": "Mikhail Gorbachev, former Russian president, founder of the Gorbachev Foundation and head of Green Cross International, claims the environment crisis is the cornerstone of the new world order."
Now wait a minute. It was none other than YOUR president George Bush (OK, it was Papa Bush), who blurted out that secret before TV cameras (that he intended to establish a New World Order based on the cooperation purchased from other nations over invading Iraq). I think that's more of an anti-green concept as born out by the actions of Baby Bush.
And now we really get to the crux: "Is global warming "an inconvenient truth" or a convenient lie and the newest version of Chicken Little readying us for a Godless "new world order?""
Aha, a "Godless" new world order is what Al Gore wants, where The Leader wants us to have a Godly New World Order? Is that the difference?
If we must have a New World Order, please let it be a Godless one.
-Jeff
lynn
11-26-2007, 09:57 PM
Re: 'Greens' movement may have darker agenda...
Yep, there's a consipiracy under every rock...Each group claims 'conspiracy' from their opposing group these days...nothin' new in that link I haven't read before...
I hear people yackin' about 'global warming' in the media all the time...I NEVER hear the word overpopulation...though, I sure wish I would!!...
And isn't it true that more educated, empowered women tend to have less children?...(And the children they have usually fair better than women demeaned and not 'empowered')...Sure, families are great, we all belong to one, and create our own...we are society...And we could keep working at zero-population growth...'stabilizing' society, by empowering women - and that in turn usually creates more economic justice....Ooh, now if we REALLY started doing that worldwide....must be a terrible greenie conspiracy....
Or, is it called 'spreading democracy'...?...Hmmmm....
------------------
Gore and Bush together.......oooohhh, maybe it's the lefty-righty-neoconservative-liberal-anti-pro-american-anti-pro-environmental-global-warming-anti-global-warming conspiracy....
https://news.aol.com/story/_a/gore-and-bush-together-again/20071126165909990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001
-------------------
And I think I'd go with Braggi on the god thingy...If I was going to go to war, or be crucified...I'd rather someone be honest about it, and say we are fightin' 'cause we're pissed, or want to keep the corporate profits rollin' in, or, we hate your guts!...Rather than saying 'god' deems it so...Boy, am I sick of that line!!...
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Yep, there's a consipiracy under every rock...Each group claims 'conspiracy' from their opposing group these days...nothin' new in that link I haven't read before...
I hear people yackin' about 'global warming' in the media all the time...I NEVER hear the word overpopulation...though, I sure wish I would!!...
And isn't it true that more educated, empowered women tend to have less children?...(And the children they have usually fair better than women demeaned and not 'empowered')...Sure, families are great, we all belong to one, and create our own...we are society...And we could keep working at zero-population growth...'stabilizing' society, by empowering women - and that in turn usually creates more economic justice....Ooh, now if we REALLY started doing that worldwide....must be a terrible greenie conspiracy....
Or, is it called 'spreading democracy'...?...Hmmmm....
------------------
Gore and Bush together.......oooohhh, maybe it's the lefty-righty-neoconservative-liberal-anti-pro-american-anti-pro-environmental-global-warming-anti-global-warming conspiracy....
https://news.aol.com/story/_a/gore-and-bush-together-again/20071126165909990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001
-------------------
And I think I'd go with Braggi on the god thingy...If I was going to go to war, or be crucified...I'd rather someone be honest about it, and say we are fightin' 'cause we're pissed, or want to keep the corporate profits rollin' in, or, we hate your guts!...Rather than saying 'god' deems it so...Boy, am I sick of that line!!...
<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->
d-cat
11-26-2007, 11:24 PM
I've been wondering what you're all about with this thread d-cat.
Let's check out this little tidbit from that "article,": "Mikhail Gorbachev, former Russian president, founder of the Gorbachev Foundation and head of Green Cross International, claims the environment crisis is the cornerstone of the new world order."
Now wait a minute. It was none other than YOUR president George Bush (OK, it was Papa Bush), who blurted out that secret before TV cameras (that he intended to establish a New World Order based on the cooperation purchased from other nations over invading Iraq). I think that's more of an anti-green concept as born out by the actions of Baby Bush.
And now we really get to the crux: "Is global warming "an inconvenient truth" or a convenient lie and the newest version of Chicken Little readying us for a Godless "new world order?""
Aha, a "Godless" new world order is what Al Gore wants, where The Leader wants us to have a Godly New World Order? Is that the difference?
If we must have a New World Order, please let it be a Godless one.
-Jeff
I didn't write the article Braggi, just found it interesting, also for the fact that there happens to be a thread on population control here.
I didn't vote for Bush and have never voted Republican.
Let's check out this little tidbit from that "article,": "Mikhail Gorbachev, former Russian president, founder of the Gorbachev Foundation and head of Green Cross International, claims the environment crisis is the cornerstone of the new world order."
Now wait a minute. It was none other than YOUR president George Bush (OK, it was Papa Bush), who blurted out that secret before TV cameras (that he intended to establish a New World Order based on the cooperation purchased from other nations over invading Iraq). I think that's more of an anti-green concept as born out by the actions of Baby Bush.
And now we really get to the crux: "Is global warming "an inconvenient truth" or a convenient lie and the newest version of Chicken Little readying us for a Godless "new world order?""
Aha, a "Godless" new world order is what Al Gore wants, where The Leader wants us to have a Godly New World Order? Is that the difference?
If we must have a New World Order, please let it be a Godless one.
-Jeff
I didn't write the article Braggi, just found it interesting, also for the fact that there happens to be a thread on population control here.
I didn't vote for Bush and have never voted Republican.
Melodymama
11-28-2007, 11:13 AM
I hope, in addition to the intellectual (hopefully) bla bla bla, you are all doing your best every hour to clean up after yourself, to dispose of refuse properly, to grow your own food, to cut down use and unnessary packaging. What we as individuals who are not in the right places THINK at any given time is never as important and powerful as what we DO. We engaged in this debate in 1974 in social work graduate school regarding unfit mothers and fertility control. Should sex be criminalized...on and on. In the mean time we smart Americans have consumed much of the world's resources and wonder now what the problem could be? Maybe instead of thinking and sharing all your thoughts you could take a walk and pick up garbage along the way. I must say that for many years in those 3am wide awake moments of existential self questioning, I could always know that recycling to the best of my ability was one REAL thing I was doing to make the world a better place. How can we find enough resource if we use more than we produce? How can we find peace if we do not share peaceful ways? Laura
mykil
11-28-2007, 12:52 PM
LMAO, you almost have me convinced that you are better than me! Atleast that is the way it came off to me! You mention unfit mothers, this I like! For in 74’ there really wasn’t much free food floating around, and it was extremely hard to help the poor. It was a good idea then for mothers in poverty levels not to have children, for their children could and did starve to death fairly easy. This I know from experience, I was one of those children! WE pretty much have solved this problem in this day and age at least in this country, there is enough food to go around, for now. Other countries are not so lucky as of now.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Now adayz we have an unfit country. In all reality we should be judging ourselves in the way that you were debating in the seventies on one minority group, we are a minority country that is unfit to raise it’s children anymore! Our prospects are slim pickings. The drugs, the violence, the poor communication skills needed to evolve into a healthy environment are not there. To many cooks in the kitchen and no one tending to the customers in the restaurant. I am not sure exactly what is to become of our society, but the outlook does look grim. IF we are to evolve it looks like at this point we will not be able to survive with adapting to smog, chemicals, and plain downright violence, drugs and whatever else will be around us at all times. The country life is going to be like living in the projects in the city. The projects are going to be like…
<o:p></o:p>
This is the country we live in, this is where I wanted to raise m children, I am not impressed any more! I am not at all looking forward to grandchildren at this point, and lucky for me my children have decided against children already. Although you know that could and probably will change on a daily basis!
<o:p></o:p>
Nine out of ten people don’t give a dam, as long as they can live out their own life without too much problems, they can and are passing the buck. The ones tha5t do give a dam are more into the dramatization and really just talking about it, you are right.
<o:p></o:p>
In order to make it we are all going to have to take it on, a little bit for each individual, taught in schools at a young age. Your evaluation suggests this will be your specialty field and you will do this to help the world survive.
I hope, in addition to the intellectual (hopefully) bla bla bla, you are all doing your best every hour to clean up after yourself, to dispose of refuse properly, to grow your own food, to cut down use and unnessary packaging. What we as individuals who are not in the right places THINK at any given time is never as important and powerful as what we DO. We engaged in this debate in 1974 in social work graduate school regarding unfit mothers and fertility control. Should sex be criminalized...on and on. In the mean time we smart Americans have consumed much of the world's resources and wonder now what the problem could be? Maybe instead of thinking and sharing all your thoughts you could take a walk and pick up garbage along the way. I must say that for many years in those 3am wide awake moments of existential self questioning, I could always know that recycling to the best of my ability was one REAL thing I was doing to make the world a better place. How can we find enough resource if we use more than we produce? How can we find peace if we do not share peaceful ways? Laura
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Now adayz we have an unfit country. In all reality we should be judging ourselves in the way that you were debating in the seventies on one minority group, we are a minority country that is unfit to raise it’s children anymore! Our prospects are slim pickings. The drugs, the violence, the poor communication skills needed to evolve into a healthy environment are not there. To many cooks in the kitchen and no one tending to the customers in the restaurant. I am not sure exactly what is to become of our society, but the outlook does look grim. IF we are to evolve it looks like at this point we will not be able to survive with adapting to smog, chemicals, and plain downright violence, drugs and whatever else will be around us at all times. The country life is going to be like living in the projects in the city. The projects are going to be like…
<o:p></o:p>
This is the country we live in, this is where I wanted to raise m children, I am not impressed any more! I am not at all looking forward to grandchildren at this point, and lucky for me my children have decided against children already. Although you know that could and probably will change on a daily basis!
<o:p></o:p>
Nine out of ten people don’t give a dam, as long as they can live out their own life without too much problems, they can and are passing the buck. The ones tha5t do give a dam are more into the dramatization and really just talking about it, you are right.
<o:p></o:p>
In order to make it we are all going to have to take it on, a little bit for each individual, taught in schools at a young age. Your evaluation suggests this will be your specialty field and you will do this to help the world survive.
I hope, in addition to the intellectual (hopefully) bla bla bla, you are all doing your best every hour to clean up after yourself, to dispose of refuse properly, to grow your own food, to cut down use and unnessary packaging. What we as individuals who are not in the right places THINK at any given time is never as important and powerful as what we DO. We engaged in this debate in 1974 in social work graduate school regarding unfit mothers and fertility control. Should sex be criminalized...on and on. In the mean time we smart Americans have consumed much of the world's resources and wonder now what the problem could be? Maybe instead of thinking and sharing all your thoughts you could take a walk and pick up garbage along the way. I must say that for many years in those 3am wide awake moments of existential self questioning, I could always know that recycling to the best of my ability was one REAL thing I was doing to make the world a better place. How can we find enough resource if we use more than we produce? How can we find peace if we do not share peaceful ways? Laura
Willie Lumplump
11-28-2007, 02:15 PM
We engaged in this debate in 1974 in social work graduate school.
I don't suppose you were at U.C. Berkeley?
Maybe . . . you could take a walk and pick up garbage along the way.
I just picked up the mile walk into town, now I need to get the mile back on the other side of the road. I've done this in public parks too--better to light one candle than curse the darkness.
How can we find enough resource if we use more than we produce?
We need to consume less and learn to enjoy our lives more with fewer resources.
I don't suppose you were at U.C. Berkeley?
Maybe . . . you could take a walk and pick up garbage along the way.
I just picked up the mile walk into town, now I need to get the mile back on the other side of the road. I've done this in public parks too--better to light one candle than curse the darkness.
How can we find enough resource if we use more than we produce?
We need to consume less and learn to enjoy our lives more with fewer resources.
Zeno Swijtink
12-26-2007, 11:25 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/20/AR2007122002725_pf.html
U.S. Fertility Rate Hits 35-Year High, Stabilizing Population
By Rob Stein_Washington Post Staff Writer_Friday, December 21, 2007; A11
For the first time in 35 years, the U.S. fertility rate has climbed high enough to sustain a stable population, solidifying the nation's unique status among industrialized countries.
The overall fertility rate increased 2 percent between 2005 and 2006, nudging the average number of babies being born to each woman to 2.1, according to the latest federal statistics. That marks the first time since 1971 that the rate has reached a crucial benchmark of population growth: the ability of each generation to replace itself.
"It's been quite a long time since we've had a rate this high," said Stephanie J. Ventura of the National Center for Health Statistics. "It's a milestone."
While the rising fertility rate was unwelcome news to some environmentalists, the "replacement rate" is generally considered desirable by demographers and sociologists because it means a country is producing enough young people to replace and support aging workers without population growth being so high it taxes national resources.
"This is a noteworthy event," said John Bongaarts of the Population Council, a New York-based think tank. "This is a sign of demographic health. Many countries would like to be at this level."
Europe, Japan and other industrialized countries have long had fertility rates far below the replacement level, creating the prospect of labor shortages and loss of cultural identity as the proportion of native-born residents shrinks in relation to immigrant populations. In contrast, many developing nations' birthrates far exceed the replacement rate, fueling poverty and social unrest.
"Over the long term you can't have significant continued growth or continued decline," said S. Philip Morgan, a Duke University sociologist. "Neither one is sustainable."
The reasons for the unusual U.S. fertility rate are the focus of intense interest. Experts can only speculate, but they cite a complex mix of factors, including lower levels of birth control use than in other developed countries, widely held religious values that encourage childbearing, social conditions that make it easier for women to work and have families, and a growing Hispanic population.
"It's not clear which of these factors is most important," Bongaarts said.
The nation's total fertility rate hit a high of nearly 3.8 in the United States in 1957 during the postwar Baby Boom. But it fell sharply through the 1960s and 1970s with the introduction of the birth control pill and other trends, including women delaying childbearing to attend college and pursue a career. The rate dipped below replacement level in 1972 and hit a low of 1.7 in 1976, but it started rising again in the late 1970s. It climbed steadily through the 1980s, hovering close to but never hitting the replacement rate throughout the '90s. The population rose steadily nevertheless, however, because, in part, of immigration.
The fertility rate finally surpassed the replacement threshold again in 2006, according to a preliminary analysis of birth data released by the government this month. When the report was published, attention focused on a jump in the teen birthrate for the first time in 14 years, but the statistics show that was part of an increase in birthrates across almost all ages.
"The teenagers may have had some impact, but the birthrate went up for every group, including women in their 20s, and they account for a huge percentage of the childbearing in this country," Ventura said.
Some have speculated that one small factor for the rise may be an increase in births in families of military personnel being deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, Ventura said.
"Maybe they came back and didn't know when their next deployment may be," Ventura said. "That's very interesting, but it's anecdotal at this point."
Some of the increase is explained by immigration. Hispanics have the highest fertility rate -- about 2.9 -- followed by blacks (2.1), Asians (1.9) and whites (1.86). But Hispanics do not represent enough of the population to fully explain the trend, and the fertility rate of U.S. whites is still higher than that of other developed countries.
"It's hard to say any one factor is responsible. It's frustrating when you can't put your finger on what's going on," Ventura said.
For developed countries, a replacement-level fertility rate is considered vital for keeping retirement programs such as Social Security solvent by supplying new workers to pay into the system to support retirees.
"A low birthrate results in an old society. It will be hard to support social systems when you have so few people relative to older people," Bongaarts said. "The Europeans are very worried and are turning to all sorts of measures, including giving incentives to people to have children."
The slowdown in the fertility rate can be offset by increasing immigration, but that has caused a backlash across Europe.
"It's a real crisis for some countries," Morgan said. "If you're talking about replacing the births you are not having with migrants, that would lead to fundamental societal change for the receiving country."
Although many European countries offer women incentives to have children, such as providing lengthy paid maternity leave, guaranteeing their jobs and subsidizing child care, the efforts have had limited impact.
"It's widely accepted in the United States that women can have this balance," said Mark Mather of the Population Reference Bureau, a Washington research organization. "I'm not sure that's true in some European countries, such as Germany, where there may still be more of a stigma attached to women working and having families."
While being a mother who works outside the home is far from easy for many American women, many experts said the United States is in many ways more amenable to the practice than many other developed countries. The high-octane consumer economy, for example, helps women run households more efficiently in a number of ways, including making prepared foods more widely available, and weekend and late-night shopping possible. American men are also helping more with their children than in the past, experts say.
"We also have a relatively high percentage of part-time jobs available," said Ronald Rindfuss, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina. "There's also more shift work outside the normal nine-to-five, Monday-through-Friday schedule that enables parents to share child care."
The nation's religiosity also contributes to the higher fertility rate, which varies geographically, experts said. Red states tend to have both more religious people and higher fertility rates.
"Americans are much more religious than Europeans: They believe in God more. They go to church more," said Charles Westoff, a Princeton University demographer. "That sort of religious attitude or set of values is strongly correlated with fertility."
Whatever the cause, the fertility rate combined with increased immigration is likely to continue to fuel growth of the U.S. population, experts said.
"We have a lot of population momentum in this country because we have so many young people who themselves are going to soon be having 2.1 children," Mather said. "We're going to be growing for quite some time at a fairly fast pace."
But not everyone sees that as encouraging, given that the United States remains a leading consumer of increasingly scarce natural resources.
"The world is now consuming resources faster than the Earth can sustain over the longer term," said Lester Brown of the Earth Policy Institute. "Forests are shrinking. Fisheries are collapsing. Water tables are falling. Large parts of the world's grasslands are deteriorating. The U.S. is already disproportionately responsible for that because of our very high consumption levels."
U.S. Fertility Rate Hits 35-Year High, Stabilizing Population
By Rob Stein_Washington Post Staff Writer_Friday, December 21, 2007; A11
For the first time in 35 years, the U.S. fertility rate has climbed high enough to sustain a stable population, solidifying the nation's unique status among industrialized countries.
The overall fertility rate increased 2 percent between 2005 and 2006, nudging the average number of babies being born to each woman to 2.1, according to the latest federal statistics. That marks the first time since 1971 that the rate has reached a crucial benchmark of population growth: the ability of each generation to replace itself.
"It's been quite a long time since we've had a rate this high," said Stephanie J. Ventura of the National Center for Health Statistics. "It's a milestone."
While the rising fertility rate was unwelcome news to some environmentalists, the "replacement rate" is generally considered desirable by demographers and sociologists because it means a country is producing enough young people to replace and support aging workers without population growth being so high it taxes national resources.
"This is a noteworthy event," said John Bongaarts of the Population Council, a New York-based think tank. "This is a sign of demographic health. Many countries would like to be at this level."
Europe, Japan and other industrialized countries have long had fertility rates far below the replacement level, creating the prospect of labor shortages and loss of cultural identity as the proportion of native-born residents shrinks in relation to immigrant populations. In contrast, many developing nations' birthrates far exceed the replacement rate, fueling poverty and social unrest.
"Over the long term you can't have significant continued growth or continued decline," said S. Philip Morgan, a Duke University sociologist. "Neither one is sustainable."
The reasons for the unusual U.S. fertility rate are the focus of intense interest. Experts can only speculate, but they cite a complex mix of factors, including lower levels of birth control use than in other developed countries, widely held religious values that encourage childbearing, social conditions that make it easier for women to work and have families, and a growing Hispanic population.
"It's not clear which of these factors is most important," Bongaarts said.
The nation's total fertility rate hit a high of nearly 3.8 in the United States in 1957 during the postwar Baby Boom. But it fell sharply through the 1960s and 1970s with the introduction of the birth control pill and other trends, including women delaying childbearing to attend college and pursue a career. The rate dipped below replacement level in 1972 and hit a low of 1.7 in 1976, but it started rising again in the late 1970s. It climbed steadily through the 1980s, hovering close to but never hitting the replacement rate throughout the '90s. The population rose steadily nevertheless, however, because, in part, of immigration.
The fertility rate finally surpassed the replacement threshold again in 2006, according to a preliminary analysis of birth data released by the government this month. When the report was published, attention focused on a jump in the teen birthrate for the first time in 14 years, but the statistics show that was part of an increase in birthrates across almost all ages.
"The teenagers may have had some impact, but the birthrate went up for every group, including women in their 20s, and they account for a huge percentage of the childbearing in this country," Ventura said.
Some have speculated that one small factor for the rise may be an increase in births in families of military personnel being deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, Ventura said.
"Maybe they came back and didn't know when their next deployment may be," Ventura said. "That's very interesting, but it's anecdotal at this point."
Some of the increase is explained by immigration. Hispanics have the highest fertility rate -- about 2.9 -- followed by blacks (2.1), Asians (1.9) and whites (1.86). But Hispanics do not represent enough of the population to fully explain the trend, and the fertility rate of U.S. whites is still higher than that of other developed countries.
"It's hard to say any one factor is responsible. It's frustrating when you can't put your finger on what's going on," Ventura said.
For developed countries, a replacement-level fertility rate is considered vital for keeping retirement programs such as Social Security solvent by supplying new workers to pay into the system to support retirees.
"A low birthrate results in an old society. It will be hard to support social systems when you have so few people relative to older people," Bongaarts said. "The Europeans are very worried and are turning to all sorts of measures, including giving incentives to people to have children."
The slowdown in the fertility rate can be offset by increasing immigration, but that has caused a backlash across Europe.
"It's a real crisis for some countries," Morgan said. "If you're talking about replacing the births you are not having with migrants, that would lead to fundamental societal change for the receiving country."
Although many European countries offer women incentives to have children, such as providing lengthy paid maternity leave, guaranteeing their jobs and subsidizing child care, the efforts have had limited impact.
"It's widely accepted in the United States that women can have this balance," said Mark Mather of the Population Reference Bureau, a Washington research organization. "I'm not sure that's true in some European countries, such as Germany, where there may still be more of a stigma attached to women working and having families."
While being a mother who works outside the home is far from easy for many American women, many experts said the United States is in many ways more amenable to the practice than many other developed countries. The high-octane consumer economy, for example, helps women run households more efficiently in a number of ways, including making prepared foods more widely available, and weekend and late-night shopping possible. American men are also helping more with their children than in the past, experts say.
"We also have a relatively high percentage of part-time jobs available," said Ronald Rindfuss, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina. "There's also more shift work outside the normal nine-to-five, Monday-through-Friday schedule that enables parents to share child care."
The nation's religiosity also contributes to the higher fertility rate, which varies geographically, experts said. Red states tend to have both more religious people and higher fertility rates.
"Americans are much more religious than Europeans: They believe in God more. They go to church more," said Charles Westoff, a Princeton University demographer. "That sort of religious attitude or set of values is strongly correlated with fertility."
Whatever the cause, the fertility rate combined with increased immigration is likely to continue to fuel growth of the U.S. population, experts said.
"We have a lot of population momentum in this country because we have so many young people who themselves are going to soon be having 2.1 children," Mather said. "We're going to be growing for quite some time at a fairly fast pace."
But not everyone sees that as encouraging, given that the United States remains a leading consumer of increasingly scarce natural resources.
"The world is now consuming resources faster than the Earth can sustain over the longer term," said Lester Brown of the Earth Policy Institute. "Forests are shrinking. Fisheries are collapsing. Water tables are falling. Large parts of the world's grasslands are deteriorating. The U.S. is already disproportionately responsible for that because of our very high consumption levels."