Lab-Pit Mix with Special Needs - requires a safe, compassionate home! [Archive]

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LoveLovesCompany

10-11-2007, 07:47 PM

I'm posting this for my friend Lyn, who is coming from across the country, but if you are able to take this dog in please feel free to reply to me and I will connect you with her. Please only true animal lovers who are reliable and have some resources to fall back on, this dog has was rescued by Lyn from a tough situation and needs a good home. Thanks, animal lovers! :heart:

Here is Lyn's message:

I desparately need to find a home for a young, lovable Pitt mix. I have a volunteer hosting position at a state park I've accepted; and pits because of the liability issues surrounding them are absolutely not allowed.

He also has allergies- these result in his skin condition being similar to psoriasis (sp?) it would be good if he got a home in a Northern area, the vet thinks his condition is the result of a pollen sensitivity, from the reading I've done I think she's right, but, its unknown for sure just what it is he's sensitive too. The meds to treat the condition are extremely expensive, 100mg Atopica (Cyclosporine) about $5.00 per dose, but effective, and don't need to be administered daily, but, fairly frequently to keep him healthy. This medicine can cause upset stomach, and he's inclined to vomit while he's on it occassionally. I'm out of the meds right now, and have been giving him benadryl, which is palliative and not curative at this point.

I'm in Austin, heading to San Francisco at a fairly good clip. Would be willing to make detours for a suitable home. I'd prefer he went to a woman just because I feel they are less likely to hit a dog, and this dog has suffered enough already. That, and he responds/trains to scolding without needing to be hit.

I've tried numerous no-kill shelters, and everyone is past capacity. I so don't want to go to the pound.

https://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/desgaufressvp/Choco.jpg
https://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/desgaufressvp/P1010041.jpg

Braggi

10-13-2007, 11:44 AM

The problem with pit bulls ... I'll just post this link:

https://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-4151.html

SLurins

10-14-2007, 09:01 AM

Braggi, perhaps you have personally had some bad experience with Pit Bulls, or even have read some articles about some dog that MIGHT have been a Pit (the media often get it wrong) that have formed your opinion. But the link below that you sent WACCO readers to is not in any way, shape or form a reliable source of information for truth on anything... it's just a bunch of loose opinions from people who do not have any responsibility or authority to represent the breed.

If people are interested in knowing more about Pits, I suggest BAD RAP (www.badrap.org (https://www.badrap.org)). BadRap is headquartered in the Bay Area and they work extensively with the collection of breeds/mixes referred to as pit bulls and they can help you sort the truth from the myth. Also, they just recently went to the east coast to help evalute the dogs that were enslaved (and yes, I use that term intentionally) as fighting dogs by Michael Vick and his partners in crime.

When pit bulls are not exploited by people, many of them actually do a lot of good in the world. Besides being family pets, some of them help their communities. Here's the story of Monte (https://www.fetchthepaper.com/articles.aspx?gi_id=2612://), a dog who was rescued after Hurricane Katrina and has gone on to be a therapy and social outreach dog here in the Bay Area. Monte was voted by the readers of FETCH the Paper as the Bay Area's #1 Pit Bull Breed Ambassador. And here's another story about learning to love Pits, by a former director of operations at a Bay Area shelter: https://www.fetchthepaper.com/articles.aspx?gi_id=2609

We owe it to ourselves, and to the animals we steward, to learn all we can, to be responsible pet owners, and to not pre-judge. Many people who think they have conquered their people prejudices still harbor uninformed attitudes toward animals. Remember, it as a Labrador Retriever that bit the face off that French woman last year... her beloved pet!

Sandy
Publisher, FETCH the Paper

The problem with pit bulls ... I'll just post this link:

https://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-4151.html

Braggi

10-14-2007, 10:26 PM

A traumatic experience with pit bulls? Yes, several times a year when I hear of another killing of a child, children, or elder by a pit bull. Actually, it's usually more than one because it's the pack mentality, that runs so strong in the breed, that makes them so dangerous. BTW, we had guests for dinner tonight who told us about a friend who just had his dog killed by an invading pit bull yesterday. Trauma, yes, it happens constantly because of this breed.

I'll give an example of the pack mentality affecting a "good" pit bull. One of our neighbors had a pit bull that was several years old, lovable, friendly to kids, never had a problem. Someone came to visit that brought another pit bull. The humans left to go to dinner. By the time they got back, the visiting dog broke out of the yard with the "good" dog in tow. They went to a neighbors' home, got into their pasture and killed two miniature horses. These are docile, lovable, beautiful creatures. These horses were purchased for $600 each by two young girls, with their own money they saved for many months. The girls came home with their parents DURING the pit bull attack. One of the horses was already dead and the other was being torn apart by the dogs as the girls watched. That is trauma. Real live. Happened just down the road from me. That should have never happened.

I feel that breed should never have been developed. It happened for all the wrong reasons. Many of the people who breed them and own them are completely irresponsible (note the blog I posted earlier). The world would be a better place if they all disappeared at the same moment. In this land of the (relatively) free, no will law prohibiting them will likely come about, but the insurance carriers are likely to make them too expensive to keep. The sooner the better.

-Jeff

LoveLovesCompany

10-15-2007, 12:05 AM

Thank you to both of you for posting and sharing your obviously passionate and equally valid viewpoints on pit bulls. I'd like to quickly take this opportunity to remind everyone that the current subject at hand is the welfare of an actual living animal. He was also rescued in Louisiana and has a beautiful personality, and being attached to him myself it will be very hard for me to see him put down when and if a home for him is not found. If there is anyone out there with the time, resources and compassion to take him in and care for him properly, let them be reminded that they can post here or reply to me directly. While Waccobb is obviously an engine of free speech and therefore all comments are welcomed as the inaleable right of those who post, let's not lose track of that point.
Yamboo is a lab-pit mix who does indeed need special attention and the leadership of someone who can care for him and continue his (thus far) good training. He does need individualized care and should not be penned up in a yard as a guard dog or used for aggression as it's true that, cruelly, half of his ancestry was bred to be fighters.
He also has medical needs of which potential owners need to be aware, thus the importance that the adopter be willing and able to pay for his medication. This is not an easy case and there are obviously a lot of personal beliefs surrounding the issue of his breeding. If people want to continue to debate that is fine, and I do appreciate the positive comments that have been made, but if anyone might also be interested in adopting this dog or connect him with a possible home, that is my prerogative. Please don't hesitate to speak up even if you might know of a no-kill shelter my friend can take him to.

Braggi

10-15-2007, 08:34 AM

ChristineL

10-15-2007, 09:28 PM

I am a person who loves animals and I don't post this lightly or without a great deal of thought. I do understand the feelings of connection to an individual animal. I also hear and read about the irresponsibility of individual owners each time yet another fatal pit bull attack occurs. It is my opinion that it is irresponsible to own a pit bull, period.

Was this woman an irresponsible owner? https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-flfdogs1004nboct04,0,5767487.story

Not according to the article, but why did these dogs turn on her? This was just over a week ago. There are always current stories about pit bulls killing humans and other animals. Go to google news and search on pit bull any day of the week. Then search on any other breed and look at the differences in the stories.

If you own a pit bull it is more likely your dog will kill than if you owned any other breed. Will you always be able to keep your potential killer under control? Will you always be there? Will it never get out of your yard or off your leash? You can't be sure, but you can be sure that more death and mayhem will be caused over time by pit bulls than any other breed.

I don't think it is possible to be a responsible pit bull owner. I know I am alienating some readers with my black and white stance here, but the evidence is overwhelming. Death is final. Pit bulls kill. It is irresponsible to own one. Even a "good" one. Even a half breed.

-Jeff

I'm old enough to remember when the "killer" breed was the Doberman, then it was the Rotweiller. My observation is that when any large breed becomes extremely popular, problem dogs in that breed appear. People who do not want to pay the price for a properly bred dog turn to back yard breeders which seem to be a bargain. However, they're usually in-bred which causes both physical and "mental" problems. A lot of unethical breeders breed pits for aggressiveness......of course you then have problem dogs. It is also true some people should not even have dogs, much less breeds such as pits, german shepherds, rotweillers, boxers who need to be kept busy and have owners who clearly assert themselves as the pack alpha.

Some of the sweetest dogs I have come across were pits. Some of the most aggressive were chihuahuas (again probably in-bred). I will admit I've never heard of a Chinese Pug attack.

Let's cut this one poor dog a break.....he'll be fine in the right home.

In a decade or less, it will be another breed that will be the "killer" breed.

Just for the record, the most difficult breed I ever came across was the African Basenjii. Of course, you don't read much about them......few people have them. I used to walk one as a teen ager. He was aggressive towards all dogs with the exception of others of his breed and once I had established myself as "Alpha", he was super-protective of me. These dogs don't bark and their growl can't be heard. I handled him just fine. My major problem were dog owners who walked their dogs off the leash and insisted it was fine because their dog was friendly and playful and people who assured me all dogs loved them and came too close to me after I had warned them the dog was super-protective. Oh, and by the way, it's a small medium breed, but can jump quite high.....I once pulled him down just in time, inches from the throat of a 6'5" fool who chose to ignore my two warnings that the dog was growling and did not like him.

Any dogs can become dangerous when left in the back yard day in and day out with little socializing, nothing to do and little training. If there are two or more of them, they're likely to become a pack.....then they're dangerous. We had four dogs like that down my road. They would manage to escape their yard and three of them roamed as a pack and became more and more threatening until they tore apart a neighbors cat. Interestingly enough, it was three large mutts and a pit mix....the only one who did not follow the pack.....the pit mix.

LoveLovesCompany, hope you find a safe home for this dog.....sorry I can't help.

Braggi

10-15-2007, 10:04 PM

Let's cut this one poor dog a break.....he'll be fine in the right home.
LoveLovesCompany, hope you find a safe home for this dog.....sorry I can't help.

You know Christine, I want to believe this is true, and I agree with the spirit of your post. (Partly because you're one of my favorite posters on Waccobb.--true confession) I doubt this dog will ever cause a serious problem and it's clear LoveLovesCompany posted only with the best of intentions.

In a decade or less, it will be another breed that will be the "killer" breed.

This, however, I doubt. There are too many fanatics out there who love the dangerous pit bulls and they know what makes new puppies if they understand little else.

It is the companies that provide homeowners insurance that will make all the most dangerous breeds difficult or impossible to own because they are already beginning to cancel the policies of owners of the more infamous breeds. If I had my policy canceled or my rates doubled by my company because I owned a dangerous pet I'd seriously consider getting rid of said pet. I think this is a better situation than passing laws since I'm too much of a libertarian to suggest passage of any prohibition law.

I just hope it all works out for the best.

-Jeff

ChristineL

10-16-2007, 12:24 AM

What do you consider the dangerous breeds? Besides pit bulls that is. Again, in the seventies....it was Dobermans that were considered to be dangerous dogs. In the 80's it was Rotweillers. Now, it's pit bulls. Almost any breed dog can become dangerous owned by the wrong people. Let's go after irresponsible breeders who in-breed and produce dogs with serious problems, including excess aggression. Let's promote responsible dog ownership. If you don't have a lot of time, training knowledge and the willingness to be Alpha, not "Mommy", there are breeds you shouldn't bring into your home. (Before I get a lot of flack, by being Alpha, not Mommy, I don't mean be abusive or use only negative enforcement.) If you're a couch potato, you shouldn't have a Jack Russel or a Bouvier. Bored dogs can also become somewhat dangerous.

On a slightly different topic, we also seem to expect dogs, who are all descended from wolves and wild dogs, to have no protective instincts and be little saints who won't react to attacks. We also need to train people, children included, not to be excessively aggressive with pets. I was taught very early to be gentle and careful with animals. Most of all, I was taught never to approach a dog without asking the person at the other end of the leash if it was ok. I was amazed when I used to walk the Besenjii, who I always kept on a short leash, that people would continue to reach for him after I told them he was not friendly to strangers. They would always tell me all dogs loved them. They'd tell me he was not barking or growling and I would explain he was mute, the hair on his back would be up and his stance was threatening. I'd back up, he'd charge and be brought up short. The snapping of the teeth would suddenly wake them up. I had him leashed, under my control and warned people to back away. He was never off leash or on a long lead. He was never aggressive with me, we'd been properly "introduced" by his elderly owner who was too weak to give him exercise walks.

When I was at the shelter to adopt a cat, a gentleman ahead of me on line had his 2 children with him. His son, around 9 years old, was super hyper, abnoxious, yelling continuously and repeatedly kicking and hitting his father. To my amazement, the shelter staff let them enter the dog area with no escort. It took all of a minute for them to come back in, the boy having been bitten on his fingers. I am sure the boy loudly and agressively shoved his hand between the kennel bars and the dog reacted by nipping (the bite was not at all serious). Unfortunately, I would bet anything the poor dog became instantly unadoptable and doomed to euthanasia. If he was a stray, should the owner come for him....he is now labeled a dangerous dog. Personally, I think this family should never be allowed to adopt any pet and this child should be kept away from dogs. I would never have allowed him to pet my dog who is one of the gentlest animals I've known. Some dogs are unfairly labelled dangerous.

My ex-next door neighbor had a Bouvier that used to escape the yard regularly and I used to be very careful around her as she was unpredictable and would often suddenly try to nip you if you touched her. The dog now has a new owner and is a very gentle and friendly dog. The real problem?.......She was never groomed and her coat was so matted it pulled on her skin, being touched often hurt her. A little bit off topic, but she was potentially dangerous......but not vicious or a dangerous breed.

No, I'm not a fanatic, I've never owned a dangerous dog. I've had many more cats than dogs and did have to put a cat I took in euthanized because she was dangerous. She would run to you to get petted and ten minutes later she would run to you and bite, hard. Both occurred while you were sitting on the couch watching TV. She was not playing. My only failure in the cat department. My present somewhat feral girl never attacks......just don't go after her and corner her. If she comes to you, you can pet her safely and get some purrs. My ex-stepson, after repeated warnings from me to not chase her, backed her into a corner. She rose up on her hind legs, growled, hissed and showed all her front claws.....that did cure him. I still have her....she's a lot happier and friendlier since the ex and I broke up.

No, I wouldn't keep a "dangerous" dog who bit or became aggressive for no reason.

You know Christine, I want to believe this is true, and I agree with the spirit of your post. (Partly because you're one of my favorite posters on Waccobb.--true confession) I doubt this dog will ever cause a serious problem and it's clear LoveLovesCompany posted only with the best of intentions.

This, however, I doubt. There are too many fanatics out there who love the dangerous pit bulls and they know what makes new puppies if they understand little else.

It is the companies that provide homeowners insurance that will make all the most dangerous breeds difficult or impossible to own because they are already beginning to cancel the policies of owners of the more infamous breeds. If I had my policy canceled or my rates doubled by my company because I owned a dangerous pet I'd seriously consider getting rid of said pet. I think this is a better situation than passing laws since I'm too much of a libertarian to suggest passage of any prohibition law.

I just hope it all works out for the best.

-Jeff

Braggi

10-16-2007, 09:07 AM

Christine, I'd like to answer your questions, which require reliance on the "experts," and then I'm willing to let this thread drop. I doubt we're changing any minds or any laws with this discussion. I hope my posts will convince someone to avoid getting a dangerous dog, but I'm not confident that will occur. People tend to cling to beliefs despite facts to the contrary.

I'll take quotes from this website: https://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

The website owner is a lawyer who specializes in dog related cases. It's a very complete website, sticks with the facts, avoids dramatization, and contains notes and links to all source material. There are a number of resources for dog owners there as well as ways to defend yourself from dangerous dogs. It's well worth looking at.

What do you consider the dangerous breeds? Besides pit bulls that is. Again, in the seventies....it was Dobermans that were considered to be dangerous dogs. In the 80's it was Rotweillers. Now, it's pit bulls. ...
No, I wouldn't keep a "dangerous" dog who bit or became aggressive for no reason.

In response to your last statement: " ... In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question."

The most reliable way to know if you own a dangerous dog is by the breed and statistics, not the behavior of the individual dog. You can't know that your dog is safe. All breeds bite occasionally, but it is pit bulls and rottweilers that kill in most fatal cases.

My main point in this thread is that pit bulls are killers. They kill people. They kill other pets. You can't undo death. There is no healing from death.

I think it is wrong to own an animal of a breed that is a known, and unpredictable killer.
"The dogs that are most responsible

Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here (https://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf) to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.
According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.
Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."

Almost any breed dog can become dangerous owned by the wrong people. Let's go after irresponsible breeders who in-breed and produce dogs with serious problems, including excess aggression.

I hear this argument every time there is yet another killing caused by a dog. Yet, there seems to be little enforcement. Dog related killings continue to go up, way up in proportion to total dog ownership.

In previous decades there were about 17 dog related killings each year yet so far in 2007 there have been 26. Nearly all by pit bulls and rottweilers.

Yes, we know who the culprits are. They are not humans. They are pit bulls and rottweilers. These breeds are unpredictable. They are too dangerous to own. The insurance companies are in a campaign to make them too expensive to own. I hope they succeed soon, but it won't be soon enough to prevent many more killings. The owners and breeders are too attached and too stubborn to stop the killings. They should know that 70% of dog bites happen to the family and friends of the owners.

How sad would it be to have your own child killed by your dog? How tragic? Are you willing to take that chance? I'm not, but so many are I'm shocked and sickened by the thought.

I maintain that it was irresponsbile to ever have developed the pit bull breed. It was developed for all the wrong reasons and it's legacy is one of mayhem and death as was predicted by those who bred them since that was their intent. It is irresponsible to own a pit bull or a pit bull mix. They are too dangerous and unpredictable.

Pit bulls kill. If people quit buying them and "saving" them, there will be fewer deaths and maimings.

I've had enough tragedy in my life.

-Jeff

Kunnskaping

10-17-2007, 04:46 PM

I'll take quotes from this website: https://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

<SNIP!>

The most reliable way to know if you own a dangerous dog is by the breed and statistics, not the behavior of the individual dog.

Braggi, you seem to have overlooked the fact that the web site you have cited as an authority on this matter does not support your point of view. Specifically, it says:

". . . it must be noted that:
Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner or handler most often is responsible for making a dog into something dangerous. [Emphasis added]
An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above).
Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be potentially dangerous. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack. " [Emphasis added]You also overlooked the fact that the dog in question in this thread is not a Pitt Bull Terrier but a Pit Bull and Labrador mix, which, according to the main study cited on the page you referenced, were responsible for no deaths or maimings during the period observed. That is in contrast with pure bred Labrador Retrievers that accounted for two deaths and 20 maimings.

Does this mean that breeding Labradors with Pit Bulls makes the off spring safer than that of pure bred Labradors? No, of course not. It means that the study is flawed in that it makes no effort to account for how many of any given breed (or combination thereof) are in the sample pool, nor the conditions of their care and keeping, which has so much to do with a dog's opportunity and propensity to do harm. It other words, the incomplete information provided by the study is insufficient to reach conclusions about the degree to which breed accounts for dangerous behavior.

Here is a passage from a recent article (https://animalbehavior.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/wheres-the-proof-that-breed-specific-legislation-works/) that makes a few more points worth considering before coming to any conclusions about the degree to which dog breeds in and of themselves are driving force behind safety problems with dogs:

. . . There is little or no data other than anecdote available to the public about whether eliminating specific breeds of dogs from a community actually reduces the numbers of dog bites, attacks or dog-related fatalities. If they are not making the data public either they are not collecting the data, which is unacceptable, or there is something they don’t want us to see.

Dogs of any breed obtained for the purpose of fighting, guarding and protection are high on the list of dogs that attack and kill. Dogs of any breed kept in the yard on a chain or in a pen outside are among the dogs most likely to kill. Dogs of any breed that are allowed to roam loose or that are abused or neglected are more likely to kill than other dogs. Unneutered male dogs are frequently counted among those dogs that bite. (Delise, 2002)

If you take all the pit bulls out of a community, the people likely to harbor dangerous dogs will keep another large, powerful breed. The people who kept a pit bull outside on a chain will keep another breed outside on a chain. The people who abused or neglected a pit bull will abuse and neglect another breed of dog. The people who let their pit bull roam will let the dog that replaces their pit bull roam. Families that owned unneutered-male pit bulls are likely to obtain and keep intact another breed of dog. When children are allowed to interact unattended with unfamiliar dogs, chained dogs, penned dogs and family pets with histories of unresolved aggression it can be a recipe for disaster no matter what the breed. Getting rid of a breed without changing how people care for and manage their dogs will not solve any dog attack problems.

Before another community enacts breed specific legislation statistical comparisons must be made between the before and after picture in those communities where BSL has already been enacted. To determine whether BSL is valid we do not need more proof that pit bulls are strong, powerful dogs. Everyone already knows that. But people who spend time around dogs also know that many pit bulls are friendly, gentle animals despite their strength. If communities are going to enact BSL someone needs to demonstrate that it works. So far I have not seen the data.

With pit bulls out of the picture there will still be dog attacks. Denver, Colorado banned pit bulls in 1989, and in a 1994 study Chow Chows and German Shepherds had taken their place as the dogs most likely to bite (Gershman, Sacks & Wright, 1994). . . .

Braggi

10-17-2007, 08:47 PM

Braggi, you seem to have overlooked the fact that the web site you have cited as an authority on this matter does not support your point of view.

Actually it does. This is the complete statement from my post you took only a part of:

"The most reliable way to know if you own a dangerous dog is by the breed and statistics, not the behavior of the individual dog. You can't know that your dog is safe. All breeds bite occasionally, but it is pit bulls and rottweilers that kill in most fatal cases."

The key word here is "KILL." (Emphasis added.)

Pit bulls kill. I heard some years back that golden retrievers bite more people than any other breed, but they are not very dangerous dogs because they rarely kill or severely maim. It is pit bulls that kill far more than any other breed. Nothing in your post negates that fact.

I agree with you it would be better if mixes were listed more carefully in the studies on the subject because it would show whether pit bull mixes are also very dangerous. Many folks believe that mixed breeds make better and more gentle pets, so intermixing other breeds with pit bulls might make them less dangerous. I propose it's not worth taking the risk, however.

How many more deaths of children will it take to convince you, Kunnskaping, that pit bulls are too potentially dangerous to own? I'm already convinced.

-Jeff

LoveLovesCompany

10-17-2007, 09:28 PM

Barry

10-17-2007, 09:37 PM

If we could please let this thread die, I would appreciate it. Yamboo went to the pound today, and was immediately euthanized. I am not interested in hearing what anyone has to say about it. Thank you all but I can't bear getting any more emails on this subject. Please let this go. If you want to talk to each other about it, out of respect please do it through private emails.
Thank you.
I'm sorry to hear about your loss, LLC. :(:

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