Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[Willie Lumplump]

A few months ago I made a discovery so shocking that it forced me to re-examine my entire life from childhood to adulthood. I learned about clinical narcissism. Everybody knows people who are self-centered. In fact, everybody is self-centered at times, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. People who are overly self-centered are sometimes called narcissistic, a term that has come into colloquial use. However, there is a real, clinical condition called "narcissistic personality disorder," (NPD), and people who have it are not rare. They may be football coaches, bankers, construction workers, travel agents, politicians, or philanthropists. In fact, they may be anybody, and they may enter our lives as mere nuisances, walking catastrophes., or anything in between. Fortunate people have antennae that enable them to detect and steer away from narcissists. Many others are less fortunate. We unfortunate ones need to be educated, because our happiness, financial security, and even our very lives may depend on our ability to protect ourselves against these people. This essay is my small attempt to share what I have learned.

Most narcissists underwent a childhood trauma so severe that they could not face up to the pain. To deal with the aftermath of the trauma, they invent a false self that they present to the world as a real person. This false self has one central purpose, to obtain narcissistic supply in the form of admiration, approval, hatred, or any other form of attention. Although narcissists may give a convincing impression of relating to people honestly and even intimately, they see other people as mere players on their stage. Narcissists recognize but do not care about others' feelings, needs, vulnerabilities, or anything else that makes us human. We are mere puppets to them.
Through reading and examination of my own experience, I've composed a list of characteristics that may be especially useful for long-distance detection (as opposed to clinical diagnosis).

1) Compulsive talking. I hasten to say that this trait cannot provide a definitive diagnosis. Some people talk too much because they are anxious, and it is certainly possible to be anxious without being narcissistic. Nevertheless, compulsive talking, especially compulsive talking about the person doing the talking, should be taken as a caution sign. A talking narcissist knows that he is the center of the attention, and that is why he is reluctant to stop.

2) Anger at contradiction. Narcissists do not like to be contradicted because contradiction threatens to undermine the false self in the eyes of those on whom the narcissist depends for narcissistic supply.

3) An attitude of exceptionalism. Narcissists believe themselves to be above the rules, regulations, customs, and traditional civilities that apply to ordinary people. "Ordinary people" means everyone in the world but the narcissist himself. Narcissists may make solemn commitments, but they do not feel bound by their commitments because, unlike ordinary people, they should be free of constraints.

4) Name changes. This seems to be more prevalent among women than men. For some narcissists, the false self eventually becomes too grandiose to be confined by an ordinary name like Susan Jones or Anna Stevens. Therefore, a new name is adopted, often something poetic having to do with love or flowers. If you discover that a woman has changed her name, don't jump to conclusions, but be on guard.

5) Spiritualism. While there are many honest (though deluded) spiritualists, an obsession with spiritualism may be a bad sign. It may indicate that the narcissist has converted even the spirit world into a source of narcissistic supply. Powerful spirits direct their attention toward the narcissist, follow the narcissist around, and communicate wondrous messages through what most people would call mere coincidences.

No doubt this list could be, perhaps should be, extended. Anyone having additional ideas is welcome to contact me.

[ThePhiant]

thanks for the public announcement of your diagnosis.
what do you plan to do with your newfound disorder?
Narcissist Anonymous sounds too much like a contradiction!


A few months ago I made a discovery so shocking that it forced me to re-examine my entire life from childhood to adulthood. ...

[Clancy]

...Most narcissists underwent a childhood trauma so severe that they could not face up to the pain...

Yes, and even as adults they still can not face up to the pain, so when they see a victim of abuse, unlike most people (who are appalled by the abuse and feel for the victim), they identify with the abuser, because to identify with the victim means experiencing the helplessness and pain of their own victimization.

[ThePhiant]

very good observation, Clancy
a mature person does not just identify with the victim (to alleviate those hateful and vengeful feelings towards the perpetrator) but also with the abuser.(compassion does not stop at abuse)
since there are 2 sides to the coin, one doesn't go without the other


Yes, and even as adults they still can not face up to the pain, so when they see a victim of abuse, unlike most people (who are appalled by the abuse and feel for the victim), they identify with the abuser, because to identify with the victim means experiencing the helplessness and pain of their own victimization.

[Willie Lumplump]

thanks for the public announcement of your diagnosis.
what do you plan to do with your newfound disorder?
Narcissist Anonymous sounds too much like a contradiction!

Response:

And some people will make wisecracks about dead babies and brain tumor victims.

[Braggi]

My wife recently read Narcissism: Denial of the True Self by Alexander Lowen, MD. Although not a recent book, Lowen's wisdom seemed very up to date for us. We've been looking over and trying to learn from some former relationships that went bad or seemed far too difficult to handle. It should be understood that narcissists can be very attractive, charismatic people who are fun to be with or who seem very wise and in possession of important information we'd like to learn or take advantage of. They tend to play on the self interests of others while rarely delivering "the goods" for fear they will be found out as phonies. There are many gurus, "teachers," channelers, musicians, actors, sports figures (including Little League coaches), and "party animals" that are actually narcissists showing a face to the public that doesn't really exist internally. These are pathetically shallow people who are unable to develop deep, lasting relationships despite their apparent popularity.

But these are relatively high functioning narcissists. The lower functioning ones are gang leaders, petty criminals, bullies, family "black sheeps," etc., and are usually dismally depressed. These folks wind up in prisons, mental institutions or graveyards, often by suicide.

The high functioning narcissist often hits a social brick wall in young adulthood when their old friends and followers start to abandon them for nicer folks and then the narcissist seeks the help of therapists. Many receive a diagnosis of "bipolar disorder" which is something the therapist can "treat" and bill insurance companies for. Personality disorders rarely respond to treatment and insurance is loathe to pay so few narcissists get an accurate diagnosis. Also, therapists receive a lot of training on bipolar and almost none on personality disorders, so therapists use the tools they know. If you know someone who seems like a self absorbed jerk that cares nothing about other people's feelings and proclaims they are bipolar, think narcissist and get away if you can.

These folks may claim to "live in the present" so completely they can't be expected to keep appointments so you'd better be prepared to have them cancel on you at the last minute if they get a better offer. They will do this without apology. No apologies, and never an acceptance of responsibility. They are just living "in the moment" and others should understand and "give them space" to be themselves.

Remember that they DON'T CARE about others. They might easily break into tears in an emotional conversation, but those tears are for themselves, not for others. Usually difficult conversations about relationships are just avoided because they're too painful or could be too revealing for a narcissist.

Our culture is busy churning out narcissists with all the focus on materialism and appearance. Check out the airhead starlets getting all the headlines for misbehaving and then understand that LA nightclubs pay some of the more popular ones as much as $50,000 to show up for an evening and get drunk there. It's pretty sad.

Narcissists are often sociopaths as well. Here is a simple rule to identify a sociopath:

They hurt you repeatedly and then come to you asking for pity and mercy.

Know anybody like that?

[Willie Lumplump]

Yes, and even as adults they still can not face up to the pain, so when they see a victim of abuse, unlike most people (who are appalled by the abuse and feel for the victim), they identify with the abuser, because to identify with the victim means experiencing the helplessness and pain of their own victimization.

Response:

People with NPD don't have the means to identify with anyone. Their real self is hidden and almost entirely nonfunctional. Their false self has only a single purpose, to obtain narcissistic supply. In identifying with another person, you see the world from that person's point of view. The narcissist recognizes that people have different points of view exist but hasn't any interest in them.

[AquaGyrl]

While I understand that the two have different definitions, do you *think* there's a link indicating that narcissists also lean towards megalomania? It seems to me that narcissists share some of the 'pathological egotist' traits exhibited by the megalomaniac.


A few months ago I made a discovery so shocking that it forced me to re-examine my entire life from childhood to adulthood. I learned about clinical narcissism. ...

[ThePhiant]

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"The narcissist recognizes that people have different points of view exist but hasn't any interest in them. "Is this you Willie????

I am still not clear what motivated you to write this essay?
are you a narcissist?
do you have a dead baby?
do you have a brain tumor?

what is the REAL story, Dr. lumplump?


Response:

And some people will make wisecracks about dead babies and brain tumor victims.

[Willie Lumplump]

While I understand that the two have different definitions, do you *think* there's a link indicating that narcissists also lean towards megalomania? It seems to me that narcissists share some of the 'pathological egotist' traits exhibited by the megalomaniac.

Response:

As I understand it, "megalomania" is an older term that has fallen into disuse in the professional community, but it referred to what is now called NPD. Megalomania is now understood to be only one characteristic of the narcissist.

[Willie Lumplump]

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I am still not clear what motivated you to write this essay?
are you a narcissist?
do you have a dead baby?
do you have a brain tumor?

what is the REAL story, Dr. lumplump?

I wrote this essay because I have been too closely associated with too many narcissists in the past. And I don't have a brain tumor, but my partner died of one seven months ago.

[Clancy]

People with NPD don't have the means to identify with anyone. Their real self is hidden and almost entirely nonfunctional. Their false self has only a single purpose, to obtain narcissistic supply. In identifying with another person, you see the world from that person's point of view. The narcissist recognizes that people have different points of view exist but hasn't any interest in them.



Well, yes and no. Identifying with someone who is in control feeds their narcissistic need to avoid painful feelings. They don't actually empathize with the victimizer, they take the victimizer's position as a defense.

[ThePhiant]

willie,

you came here into wAcco GUNS BLAZING, you have more posts than anyone else on Wacco 3,27 per day.
I understand your anger in the face of the loss of someone close to you.
but really, a lot of the things you describe could be applied to your behavior.
now you didn't answer my question
do you consider your self a narcissist?



I wrote this essay because I have been too closely associated with too many narcissists in the past. And I don't have a brain tumor, but my partner died of one seven months ago.

[Fillie]

Willie,
The best book I have found, as a therapist who has treated some with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and many with features (therapeutic term meaning lesser form of the disorder with more flexibility to move out of a narcisstic state), is Stephen M. Johnson's Humanizing the Narcisstic Style. One of his postulates is that each personality disorder is a stuck develpomental stage due to trauma or extreme lack of support to complete the task of that developmental stage. Therefore, we all, no matter what our degree of development, have a little of each of the disorders in our memories and style. When adult humans or systems are stressed enough, they revert to a younger or less flexible role or style to cope. A personality disorder is where you stay if you don't ever have other choices. Here is a quote from Johnson: " The n. character derives primarily from a failure to accomodate around the issue of grandiosity and limitation...the n. is arrested around the neutralization of grandiosity. His grandiose view of self has been walled off from the necessary repeated exposure to limitation. While his grandiosity may be very apparent to others, the n. is often largely unaware of how truly infantilely grandiose he is. Still, any threat to his false self, which is essentially an expression of that grandiosity, is experienced as a threat to his very existence"
Another great book is Trapped In the Mirror by Golomb, who speaks to those raised by Narcisstic parents, and to encourage growth out of the codependency demanded by their narcissism. Codependency being that state of No Self While Serving Others (as opposed to service with a self, which has boundaries and limits)
As to the dilemma of what to do with a "difficult person": We all attract what we need in the world. Sometimes what we need is to hold a boundary and reject incoming. Sometimes we need to sustain a "dysfunctional" relationship, embracing the new awarenesses, in order to complete the next learning cycle. One of my current gods being "conscious evolution", I believe everyone put in my life has a gem of a lesson for me (and I for them) if I am into paying attention. Rejecting woundedness in others seems to beget my woundedness being rejected or begets a louder, more obvious wake up. When healing is looked at as integration, not getting rid of, this helps with judgement. When I then run into a certain woundedness I either respond with compassion and boundaries, or I react and repel, which tells me this aspect is not yet integrated.
Then we can talk about other symbiotic character disorders...like borderline personality disorders, hystrionic or paranoid pd's...whoa!

[Willie Lumplump]

Another great book is Trapped In the Mirror by Golomb, who speaks to those raised by Narcisstic parents, and to encourage growth out of the codependency demanded by their narcissism.

Unfortunately, clinical evidence indicates that narcissism cannot be treated successfully, and I'd think that encouragement would be even less effective. Perhaps the most horrific part of narcissism is that the narcissists really are trapped, as the title of the book suggests. They may temporarily escape only during a life crisis when they find they don't have enough energy to deal with the crisis and maintain their false self at the same time.

[Willie Lumplump]

Our culture is busy churning out narcissists with all the focus on materialism and appearance.

That's an astute observation. It suits the needs of the people who run this country that we all be narcissists. Narcissists are the ultimate consumers; they consume people as well as products, and people who consume each other can't organize to change the inhuman system that creates a few multibillionaires and the huge numbers of poor needed to support them.

[Braggi]

Unfortunately, clinical evidence indicates that narcissism cannot be treated successfully, and I'd think that encouragement would be even less effective.


I believe Fillie was referring to the codependant children getting treatment rather than the narcissistic parents.

On the notion that narcissists can't be treated successfully: there are smart narcissists and there are stupid ones. The stupid ones are pretty well doomed to a life of misery. The smart ones can learn. They might not become "normal," but they can learn to function quite well and even do it without taking horrible advantage of everyone around them. These folks become politicians, actors and sports figures or billionaires (think Trump). A high functioning narcissist will surround himself with "yes men" (think G.W. Bush). He might be an ass in most people's opinions, but some will think he walks on water. A lot of those will be willing to work for him, sadly.

It's pretty impossible for a narcissist to ever become a "nice" person. They just don't work that way. Empathy and compassion are meaningless terms to these folks. They just don't get it. They can, however, find ways for their selfishness to become broad enough that others are swept along with it to their own benefit. The beneficiaries have to learn to walk on eggshells a lot of the time and gently steer the narcissist in positive directions. A great many people in our culture are happy to serve such a person should they become rich enough.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Braggi wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=37935#post37935)
Our culture is busy churning out narcissists with all the focus on materialism and appearance.


That's an astute observation. It suits the needs of the people who run this country that we all be narcissists.


It's even worse than that. Our incessant quest for material goods, including homes we can't really afford, forces both parents in most families to work full time or more. That means children are ignored or at best under-loved all too often or put in the hands of strangers. We stop breast feeding too early or discourage it altogether and put infants in bedrooms down the hall where we let them "cry themselves to sleep" and try not to "spoil" them with too much attention. And now the worst advice I've ever heard which is repeated over and over to new ignorant parents: babies cry for nothing. That is so stupid. When a baby cries it should be comforted at a minimum. There us usually something a parent can do (like feeding or changing them). Even if a parent is missing what the child really wants, the kid will appreciate on some level that the parent is attempting to comfort them.

The Continuum Concept is one obvious solution to a lot of these problems.

https://www.continuum-concept.org/cc_defined.html

-Jeff

[Willie Lumplump]

The Continuum Concept is one obvious solution to a lot of these problems.

https://www.continuum-concept.org/cc_defined.html

-Jeff

First time I ever heard of it, but I saw it practiced every day by mothers in the Congo. The women go into the fields to work carrying the baby on their back in a sort of sling. Very young children are almost never separated from their mothers for about the first two years of life. Then they're turned over to older sisters or nieces for supervision.

[Fillie]

Willi,
In response to your citation that narcissists don't get better, it is my experience that, yes, they are difficult to treat because they don't tend to perceive there is a problem. This is one of their main defense stances, and without a perceived self under one's defenses, a narccissist experiences a cosmic psyche-threat of implosion into nothingness when their defense of self-perfection is threatened, an experience of brittle shattering.
But I have to strongly disagree, based on my training and experience, that there is no hope of healing. The therapeutic community's record of ineffective treatment of the personality disorders is not including more recent practices such as Rosenberg's Intergrative Body Psychotherapy, Shapiro's EMDR, Linehan's Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Fischer-Hoffman's Quadrinity Process, to name a few. These are exciting holistic processes that help heal the lack of self, and although with severe personality disorders, healing does take time, money and effort, we are getting some really positive results. Narcissiists usually come in to treatment for some other symptom, such as sexual deviancy, depression, bipolar symptoms, violence charges, addiction, etc. and a savvy therapist will then engage the client in the underlying work. I'm not saying the majority of true N's will seek or get effective treatment, but I do want to be a voice of encouragement to anyone who is here to do their healing and is willing and able to go for it.

[Willie Lumplump]

Willi,
Rosenberg's Intergrative Body Psychotherapy, Shapiro's EMDR, Linehan's Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Fischer-Hoffman's Quadrinity Process, to name a few. These are exciting holistic processes that help heal the lack of self,

Forgive my skepticism, but have there been any follow-up studies on narcissists who give the appearance of improving in therapy? An appearance of change wouldn't surprise me. Some evangelical lunatics claim that they can change a person's sexual orientation through Jesus therapy, and they have the case studies to prove it. But the case studies don't include follow-up research that would reveal the transitory nature of the "re-orientation." I suspect that the same may be true of treatment of narcissists.

[podfish]

...." In response to your citation that narcissists don't get better, it is my experience that, yes, they are difficult to treat because they don't tend to perceive there is a problem. This is one of their main defense stances,....." This is starting to sound like a wildlife study or something... what is the natural habitat of the wild narcissist? Can they be bred in captivity??? It may be useful in an academic sense to categorize people with labels like this, but the posts on this thread seem to take for granted that there's some odd subspecies that's clearly separate from the normal human line. Maybe "they" don't perceive a problem because each of "them" feels like they're just another person with their own personal take on the world and their interactions with it. Silly of them.... probably that's part of the syndrome. Let's tie them down and cure them for their own good.

[Fillie]

I agree and disagree. I can get caught up in the catagorization of a human in my replies on this discussion, and this is a pitfall of many therapists--that we see a diagnoses sitting in our office, missing the person, instead of seeing the whole person, their intrinsic traits, abilities, preciousness, human struggles/falability, strengths and creative compensations. Essentially understinding, appreciating and supporting growth in that person. This takes time and effort and a patient curiosity. Managed care for people with insurance, and public underfunding and governmental demands for quick results in our county and nonprofit systems of care have put a pressure on therapeutic providers to give a quick fix, often offering only medication, not healing.
But in my original message I did say that we all have features and traits of narccisism as it is a developmental stage of every human. Psychology is the art-science of catagorization and a language system to try to capture the states and traits in all of us, to identify what does and doesn't work, and at its heart it is a system to try to shortcut to healing unbearable pain and horrible behavior.
This is where therapy is an art, when we can fuse the diagnostic picture with the vision of the person's dharma or essential potential and help that person's adjustment to what has been, what is, and what can be. But as with any art, there are many levels of expertise and a myriad of ways of seeing the world and its people.




...." In response to your citation that narcissists don't get better, it is my experience that, yes, they are difficult to treat because they don't tend to perceive there is a problem. This is one of their main defense stances,....." This is starting to sound like a wildlife study or something... what is the natural habitat of the wild narcissist? Can they be bred in captivity??? It may be useful in an academic sense to categorize people with labels like this, but the posts on this thread seem to take for granted that there's some odd subspecies that's clearly separate from the normal human line. Maybe "they" don't perceive a problem because each of "them" feels like they're just another person with their own personal take on the world and their interactions with it. Silly of them.... probably that's part of the syndrome. Let's tie them down and cure them for their own good.

[Willie Lumplump]

It may be useful in an academic sense to categorize people with labels like this, but the posts on this thread seem to take for granted that there's some odd subspecies that's clearly separate from the normal human line. Maybe "they" don't perceive a problem because each of "them" feels like they're just another person with their own personal take on the world and their interactions with it. Silly of them.... probably that's part of the syndrome. Let's tie them down and cure them for their own good.

You post sounds like a denial that Narcissistic Personality Disorder even exists. I'm wondering what else doesn't exist. How about schizophrenia? Paranoia? Bipolar disorder? Sociopathy? Mental retardation?

Narcissists do not "feel just like another person with their own take on the world." A central feature of narcissism is that the narcissist feels like other people are "just like another person" while the narcissist himself is a superior being. That is, the false self feels this way. However, the poor, beaten-up, cowed true self that's hiding in the background suffers constant berating from his own inner voices that tell him he's no good, incompetent, and unworthy. Narcissists are miserable people.

Narcissists need curing because they are dangerous to other individuals. They can ruin lives, careers, families, and everything we hold dear. They are also dangerous to the body politic. I strongly suspect that G. Dubbya, the new Father of American fascism, is a narcissist.

As for categorizing people with labels, we parse the universe by naming what's in it. Forks belong to a category of food-handling tools with a handle and tines. Manic-depressives belong to a category of people who althernate between manic and depressive states and who usually benefit from treatment with lithium. Birds belong to a category of dinosaurs with wings. Geniuses belong to a category of people who excell in some endeavor to such an extent that they leave a lasting impression on humanity. Categorizing is our way of recognizing that the universe is not just a uniform, fuzzy, blurred place where one thing can't be distinguished from another.

[Braggi]

I think Willie could have said it a bit more gently, but I pretty much agree. Labels are useful. Narcissism is really a problem for society in general and for the patient in particular. We need every tool at our disposal. Sadly, they won't be "fixed" except that they can learn to function pretty well if they really have a deep desire to learn about themselves.

They are not necessarily awful because they are narcissists, but they so often do awful things because they are. If you have to live with one, you'll want to know every trick in the book to help and learning the definition of words is a good first step.

I'm sure you readers have picked out some anger between the lines in these posts. I'll be the first to admit I've been burned by narcissists and I'm not entirely objective in these discussions. I imagine Willie would be the second to admit.

I think I can speak for both of us that we wish narcissists, even the ones who've caused us personal problems, the best.

-Jeff

[podfish]

I agree and disagree. I can get caught up in the catagorization of a human in my replies on this discussion,..... But in my original message I did say that we all have features and traits of narccisism....

That's fair and that's the point I wanted to bring to this discussion. There's a big difference between a therapist categorizing a mental illness or personality dysfunction and a person trying to apply these labels to people they encounter. Similarly, you'll get opinions from non-lawyers about various laws. "Common sense" doesn't seem to be much help without some real education to back it up. This matters because it's way too easy to marginalize people, or explain their motives and behavior by your own standards without respecting them as different individuals. Admittedly in this case "narcissists" aren't particularly bothered by other's characterizations of them (whether it's a clinical diagnosis or a personality trait). But in general, the world suffers from too many people making too much effort to homogenize everyone. If you can't accept the range of personalities in your own culture as normal, you'll never be able to accept or understand the point of view of people outside it. And the world's smaller all the time, and clearly suffering from clashes between people incapable of accepting and tolerating each other's world-view without trying to force some common perspective. .. now if all you're -really- wanting to do is have fun stereotyping unpleasant acquaintances, back to it! but when you start characterizing more than a tiny percentage of the population as having some kind if clinical defect, I think you're treading dangerously.

[Willie Lumplump]

There's a big difference between a therapist categorizing a mental illness or personality disfunction and a person trying to apply these labels to people they encounter. "Common sense" doesn't seem to be much help without some real education to back it up. . . . when you start characterizing more than a tiny percentage of the population as having some kind if clinical defect, I think you're treading dangerously.

I'd say that we need to educate ourselves for purpose of self-defense, if for no other purpose. If I had educated myself about narcissism years ago, I would have done a much better job at recognizing (i.e., "categorizing") people who presented a threat to me and who eventually, because I did not recognize them, went on to do me major harm. As is the case with medical doctors, there are not enough therapists to go around, not enough to take care of all of us all the time. Therefore, we must take responsibility for our own lives by educating ourselves so we can make realistic decisions.

[ThePhiant]

WILLIE,
it looks like i have to answer my own question

1) Compulsive talking. A talking narcissist knows that he is the center of the attention, and that is why he is reluctant to stop
you're up to 3.36 posts per day
you even wrote a poem about yourself
I think you qualify

2) Anger at contradiction. Narcissists do not like to be contradicted because contradiction threatens to undermine the false self in the eyes of those on whom the narcissist depends for narcissistic supply.
plenty of examples of your anger at people who disagree with you right here on this thread
you qualify
3) An attitude of exceptionalism. Narcissists believe themselves to be above the rules, regulations, customs, and traditional civilities that apply to ordinary people. "Ordinary people" means everyone in the world but the narcissist himself. Narcissists may make solemn commitments, but they do not feel bound by their commitments because, unlike ordinary people, they should be free of constraints.
you have no restraints, on your mission to "expose" narcissists.
I say you pass 4) Name changes. This seems to be more prevalent among women than men. For some narcissists, the false self eventually becomes too grandiose to be confined by an ordinary name like Susan Jones or Anna Stevens. Therefore, a new name is adopted, often something poetic having to do with love or flowers.

lumplump it's clumsy but kind of poetic
you pass again

5) Spiritualism. While there are many honest (though deluded) spiritualists, an obsession with spiritualism may be a bad sign. It may indicate that the narcissist has converted even the spirit world into a source of narcissistic supply. Powerful spirits direct their attention toward the narcissist, follow the narcissist around, and communicate wondrous messages through what most people would call mere coincidences.

of course this is the one you didn't think you passed, but your zeal and fervor in preaching against THOSE people has become more than a passion, I'd say it IS a religion.
congratulations!!!
RON you TOO are a NARCISSIST!!!!!
even though you think they only do BAD things
have you not become a better person because of the experience or are you still stuck in the past?????



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Is this you Willie????


I am still not clear what motivated you to write this essay?
are you a narcissist?


what is the REAL story, Dr. lumplump?

[SageOwl]

This thread is amazing and a very interesting coincidence. In the last week I have been pondering posting a request for response from folks who have had experiences with NPD and/or Socio-pathic people. I too have had a couple of experiences with narcissists/socio-paths and I agree with much that has been written about them here.

The most recent person I encountered also has socio-pathic tendencies and basically wreaks havoc with everyone they get involved with (I'm not going to assign a gender or any other identifying characteristics because this person lives in the area and can be very vengeful) A very helpful book was suggested to me: The Socio-Path Next Door by Martha Stout, PhD.

The most shocking thing I read is that 4% of the US population is socio-pathic. That's somewhere around 12 million people! And, no, not all socio-paths are serial killers, which seems to be the popular myth. Only a tiny percentage are violently dangerous.

One of the big traits I have seen in narcissists is cruel behavior towards others and when confronted by the victim the narcissist tends to present themselves as a victim.

The one I was unfortunately involved with for several years was very intelligent; in fact, actually quite brilliant in their field. They were highly manipulative, spectacularly dishonest and in deep denial about it. It's the only time I've seen a person make a statement one minute and swear they never said it a minute later and be completely serious, as if they were unaware of their own speech.

I have also seen the litany of broken promises and the seething rage when contradicted. And one of the hardest situations I encountered was disbelief from others when I described the behavior. Most people thought the narcissist was just "difficult" or "hard to get along with" and made suggestions to me to "use that person as a mirror" or "just sit down with them and tell them how they are affecting you," in other words, try to reason with them.

But there is no reasoning with a narcissist. Only others who have experienced that disorientation and confusion and sick feeling of impotence and being mind-f***ed can understand how truly impossible these people are. And they do almost unbelievable damage.

I do have sympathy and compassion for them, but I have also learned that the best thing to do is get as far away as possible and do not associate with them. And I have also learned that 99% of the time they will not ever change.

I am in the process of writing about these people and would love to hear from any of you the details of your experiences, confidentially, of course. Please email me privately through waccobb.net. and I'll respond.

Thanks to all of you who wrote so eloquently on this thread.

[ThePhiant]

well considering that about 4 % of the population is a counselor or the like, we should be safe.
I am just wondering what the 96% is doing????


This thread is amazing and a very interesting coincidence...

[geekytwirl]

Let me just say, to be at the hands of one is dangerous. I've experienced it first hand, and fell for that first wonderful year or so. Then, out of nowhere it seemed, it came out. The details are long and most likely insignificant for this forum. But I can tell you, I've never been the same. Just waiting for that day when I am. It nearly drove me completely insane. It's sad, and I don't think there is a 'cure' for this kind of person.

[Willie Lumplump]

One of the big traits I have seen in narcissists is cruel behavior towards others and when confronted by the victim the narcissist tends to present themselves as a victim.

Right! Nowadays when a woman claims that I've victimized her, I don't walk, I run in the opposite direction and never look back.

[geekytwirl]

Yes, this has been one of the most difficult truths to grasp in my mind. I've even lost friendships over the idea that this other person is the 'victim' and I am the one that had 'serious problems' and so forth. I feel sick just knowing the people, mostly women, that will fall prey to this for so many years to come. I wish there was something that I could do to save people from the same fate that I have suffered. It is a difficult disorder to catch from the beginning. They are very charming and people, I've noticed, are drawn to them, as they seem the 'life of the party' sort. I wish I had advice to give.

[Clancy]

I feel sick just knowing the people, mostly women, that will fall prey to this for so many years to come...

Men are only slightly more likely to be clinically narcissistic than women, but you are right about everything else, you might enjoy reading this piece on narcissism;



Narcissism can be as much a hindrance as a help to relationships, new UGA study reports

For two decades, self-help books have hammered home a consistent theme for successful romantic relationships: first, you must love yourself. A new study, headed by a psychologist at the University of Georgia, may turn that wisdom on its head, though.

It turns out that those with positive self-views bordering on narcissism are usually miserable mates - selfish, manipulative, unfaithful and power hungry. Though they may at first seem charming and interested in a relationship, they soon look for dominance rather than delight.

"These people can come on as confident and attractive, but you don't see the negative parts of their personalities until later," said Keith Campbell, assistant professor of psychology at UGA. "It doesn't seem possible that they can betray a relationship as flagrantly as they can. But they do."

The study, co-authored with Craig Foster of the U.S. Air Force Academy and Eli Finkel of Carnegie-Mellon University, was just published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

Narcissism, it turns out, has many ill-starred variants, and the so-called self-esteem movement may have been completely wrong in saying that a person who doesn't love herself or himself can't successfully love others.

Clinical narcissism itself is a personality disorder affecting only about 1 percent of the population, but there are millions who share characteristics of narcissists to a greater or lesser degree. In general, true narcissists think very highly of themselves, are not very concerned with intimacy, and believe they are unique and smarter and more attractive than others. They often maintain these feelings by seeking and expressing superiority to or dominance over others.

The defining feature of those with narcissistic tendencies, the study found, is what the researchers call "game-playing love." This is an approach in which the narcissist has an aversion to depending on a partner, is deceptive and often cheats. It allows a narcissist to maintain power and autonomy at the expense of his or her partner.

Despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, men are only slightly more likely than women to fall into this category. Indeed, male and female narcissists often date each other and play identical games.

The study was done using students from UGA, the University of North Carolina and Case Western Reserve University, who in certain samples were asked to complete a booklet containing measures of self-esteem, narcissism and love styles. Narcissism was measured with a standard testing tool called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory.

"These studies don't necessarily mean that the importance granted to narcissism by the self-help literature is invalid," said Campbell, "but this proposition needs more clarification. There is evidence for a link between narcissism and loving others when narcissism is more akin to self-esteem."

Just why people with narcissistic tendencies become that way remains unclear. It could arise from experiences in early childhood or could even have a genetic component, but so little research has been done on narcissism that researchers aren't sure.

Campbell believes that these people are often clueless when it comes to the affect their behavior has on others. In fact, the studies show they rarely think about others seriously at all and probably never consider the havoc they are creating in interpersonal relationships. One of the problems is that in general people like others who appear successful and confident, and narcissists appear that way, often to excess.

"I don't believe narcissists are more successful than others, though," said Campbell. "One might think from their demeanor that they are, but it's just not true from what we can tell. Somebody always pays the price for the games they play."

These characteristics show why narcissists often find it easy to get dating partners but rarely have long-term relationships. And it's more than a matter of just being Mr. Wrong. They simply see no downside to creating the persona they perceive as successful, and that success, alas, is rarely sated. People with low opinions of themselves may be especially easy prey for narcissists.

While the study is among the first to point out that too much narcissism is just as bad as too little, it comes with some basic caveats, Campbell said. It relies on self-reporting for its basic data, it draws inferences from the material that may be open to multiple interpretations and finally there is no clear cut-off point between high narcissism and normal self-confidence, making judgments of the data somewhat difficult.

Despite these problems, the researchers were able to augment the self-reports with information from past and current dating partners of the participants in the study. In every case, the strategy of game-playing was paramount, and it led without question to serious problems in the relationships.

Viewing excessive narcissism as a problem is nothing new, of course. In Greek myth, Narcissus saw himself as beautiful and better than those around him, but his love of himself kept him from falling in love with anyone else. In the end, he fell in love with his own reflection in a pool of water and died.

The new study, however, is among the first to take what has been suspected for thousands of years and subject it to a rigorous scientific experiment. As it turns out, Narcissus probably got what was coming to him.

https://www.narcissism101.com/Narcissism_101/UniversityStudy.html

[Willie Lumplump]

I wish there was something that I could do to save people from the same fate that I have suffered.

Yes, this has been bothering me, too. I think that the subject is kept hidden because so many of the people who run the world are in fact narcissists. What could we do? Write a book? Go on Oprah? What's to be done?

[9r@nny]

Oprah IS a narcissist!

[Willie Lumplump]

Oprah IS a narcissist!

So? What's your point?

[SageOwl]

Men are only slightly more likely to be clinically narcissistic than women, but you are right about everything else, you might enjoy reading this piece on narcissism;

Hmmmm, Clancy, everything I've read has said that NPD is much more prevalent in males than females. Where did you get your info? Would you send me your source?

Thanks,Sage

[Clancy]

...everything I've read has said that NPD is much more prevalent in males than females. Where did you get your info? Would you send me your source?

I'm quoting the article in the post you are responding to;

"Despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, men are only slightly more likely than women to fall into this category. Indeed, male and female narcissists often date each other and play identical games."

You can read it here
https://www.narcissism101.com/Narcissism_101/UniversityStudy.html

[Melodymama]

WILLIE,
it looks like i have to answer my own question

1) Compulsive talking. A talking narcissist knows that he is the center of the attention, and that is why he is reluctant to stop
you're up to 3.36 posts per day
you even wrote a poem about yourself
I think you qualify

2) Anger at contradiction. Narcissists do not like to be contradicted because contradiction threatens to undermine the false self in the eyes of those on whom the narcissist depends for narcissistic supply.
plenty of examples of your anger at people who disagree with you right here on this thread
you qualify
3) An attitude of exceptionalism. Narcissists believe themselves to be above the rules, regulations, customs, and traditional civilities that apply to ordinary people. "Ordinary people" means everyone in the world but the narcissist himself. Narcissists may make solemn commitments, but they do not feel bound by their commitments because, unlike ordinary people, they should be free of constraints.
you have no restraints, on your mission to "expose" narcissists.
I say you pass 4) Name changes. This seems to be more prevalent among women than men. For some narcissists, the false self eventually becomes too grandiose to be confined by an ordinary name like Susan Jones or Anna Stevens. Therefore, a new name is adopted, often something poetic having to do with love or flowers.

lumplump it's clumsy but kind of poetic
you pass again

5) Spiritualism. While there are many honest (though deluded) spiritualists, an obsession with spiritualism may be a bad sign. It may indicate that the narcissist has converted even the spirit world into a source of narcissistic supply. Powerful spirits direct their attention toward the narcissist, follow the narcissist around, and communicate wondrous messages through what most people would call mere coincidences.

of course this is the one you didn't think you passed, but your zeal and fervor in preaching against THOSE people has become more than a passion, I'd say it IS a religion.
congratulations!!!
RON you TOO are a NARCISSIST!!!!!
even though you think they only do BAD things
have you not become a better person because of the experience or are you still stuck in the past?????



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Since I have been repeatedly invited to post something I will simply add that I am glad to see that this thread is finally slowing down. Hopefully, we all learned something, even if it was just how to quickly skip the thread full of narcissitic bla bla bla... What I mostly find curious among what would seem to be a group of educated, open-minded beings is the lack of tolerance for others' views. When replies become defensive and pointed, the value of the discussion in public is lost. There is always something to be learned by those who are quiet enough to hear it. Breathe

[ThePhiant]

AMEN


Since I have been repeatedly invited to post something I will simply add that I am glad to see that this thread is finally slowing down. Hopefully, we all learned something, even if it was just how to quickly skip the thread full of narcissitic bla bla bla... What I mostly find curious among what would seem to be a group of educated, open-minded beings is the lack of tolerance for others' views. When replies become defensive and pointed, the value of the discussion in public is lost. There is always something to be learned by those who are quiet enough to hear it. Breathe

[Willie Lumplump]

Since I have been repeatedly invited to post something I will simply add that I am glad to see that this thread is finally slowing down. Hopefully, we all learned something, even if it was just how to quickly skip the thread full of narcissitic bla bla bla... What I mostly find curious among what would seem to be a group of educated, open-minded beings is the lack of tolerance for others' views. When replies become defensive and pointed, the value of the discussion in public is lost. There is always something to be learned by those who are quiet enough to hear it. Breathe

When you write in generalities, it's hard for a reader to be sure what you're talking about. (1) Which part of the thread do you believe to be "full of narcissistic bla bla bla"? (2) Could you give some examples of "lack of tolerance for others' views," and am I right in inferring that you see all tolerance as a good thing? (3) What do you see as the difference between pointed replies and robust debate (assuming that you accept the latter as valid)? (4) Do you mean to say that everyone always has something worthwhile to contribute, and that's why it's always possible to learn if you listen?

[ThePhiant]

straight from Willie's Bible:
2) Anger at contradiction. Narcissists do not like to be contradicted because contradiction threatens to undermine the false self in the eyes of those on whom the narcissist depends for narcissistic supply.


When you write in generalities, it's hard for a reader to be sure what you're talking about. (1) Which part of the thread do you believe to be "full of narcissistic bla bla bla"? (2) Could you give some examples of "lack of tolerance for others' views," and am I right in inferring that you see all tolerance as a good thing? (3) What do you see as the difference between pointed replies and robust debate (assuming that you accept the latter as valid)? (4) Do you mean to say that everyone always has something worthwhile to contribute, and that's why it's always possible to learn if you listen?

[Dixon]

...I think that the subject is kept hidden because so many of the people who run the world are in fact narcissists.

Yeah, really, our system (like probably most large social systems) seems substantially narcissistic/sociopathic itself. Prevailing concepts of "success" in the business/political world, based on domination and exploitation, are deeply sociopathic largely because the rules are written by the rabid narcissists who are driven, manipulative and ruthless enough to get to the top. Folk singer Charlie King said it nicely: "America is like a melting pot--the people at the bottom get burned and the scum floats to the top."

Of course, we must be honest and cop to the degree that the murdering imperialist narcissists at the top are acting out our own darkness, from which we do profit, sustained by the crumbs from their bloody table. Our tax dollars at work.

Having worked in mental health for many years, I've often thought of diagnosing whole societies, and the USAmerican empire definitely has Mixed Personality Disorder with Sociopathic, Narcissistic and Schizotypal Features, along with Intermittent Explosive Disorder and possibly Sexual Sadism with associated Paraphilias (i.e., fetishization of guns, missiles, etc.), among other serious psychiatric disorders.

Dixon

[ThePhiant]

nice clinical analysis


Yeah, really, our system (like probably most large social systems) seems substantially narcissistic/sociopathic itself. ...


“Our discontent begins by finding false villains whom we can accuse of deceiving us. Next we find false heroes whom we expect to liberate us. The hardest, most discomfiting discovery is that each of us must emancipate himself.”

--Daniel J. Boorstin