I would be very interested to know ..how many actually consider themselves to be patriotic?
nurturtruth, your question intrigued me. I hadn't thought about it much before. I was actually somewhat surprised at the emotion here about the U.S, flag. However, in retrospect, quite understandable. As a result, I thought about it a bit today. I hope you don't mind if I respond in a separate thread. The other threads about "Waving The Flag" seem to've digressed considerably.
Yes, I consider myself to be "patriotic". But what does being "patriotic" mean? Now, I will resist the temptation to Google the word, and cherry-pick only the responses I feel are favorable.... Instead, I'll put it in personal terms. If I'm in error, no doubt someone here will be glad to tell me how.
Patriotism, to me, is a positive sense of belonging. I am topmost "patriotic" to my wife, and immediate family. It means very much to me to belong to that small group. It makes me proud. At the other end of my scale, I am proud ("patriotic") to be one with every other human on Earth - Brit, Cameroonian, Kalahari tribe member, whatever. I am overcome by the wonder of being human.
But I can't comprehend the immensity of humanity in its totality - my shortcoming. So I identify more with a subset of humanity, U.S. citizens. That doesn't mean I don't identify with the rest of our specie. I just have much more in common with U.S. citizens.
And, dang, I'm proud of these people. Under the humanity-subset of the U.S., some awesome concepts have occurred or been enacted. For me, the "Bill Of Rights", and the Berlin Airlift pop immediately to mind. there are countless others. As others here have pointed out repeatedly, there are atrocities and horrors, almost too numerous to mention, attributed to "The U.S.". I hate that those things happened. I hope to do what I personally can, to contribute to a country where we can do as much as possible to eliminate those terrible things from happening in the future. I hope we all have the courage to fight the evil.
I'm hateful of the recent history of the U.S., in which American forces have been inflicted on other nations. During which we are considered by the huge majority of the world to be an oppressor. That's not my U.S. I don't, and never would fly a flag for that.
I'm proud to fly a flag for the potential that our country has, to help the world. In patriotism I fly the U.S. flag for the Peace Corps, for humanitarian aid of whatever kind we can provide. To use our bounty to help others along the path. Selfishly perhaps, I hope to see a day when the big group that I identify with, called the U.S., is admired around the world in friendship, and as an example of what humanity is capable of attaining. I fly the flag for everyone in the world, but I relate most to those I'm most familiar with, Americans.
Tars
ps. Actually, no flag flying right now, as it became frayed, and will be burned. But I will have a new one up shortly. It's going to be big enough to be recognizable for miles!
dragonflydreams
10-02-2007, 08:19 PM
The Myth of Patriotism
(myth: a widely held but false belief or idea)
Moral development progresses through four distinct levels: 1) what is good for me 2) what is good for my in-group (family, nation-state, religion, social class, gender, race, etc.) 3) what is good for humanity 4) what is good for Earth (entire Web of Life). As you can see, moral development becomes ever more inclusive as it progresses from a singular ‘me’ to eventually embrace all Earthlings (all life forms on Earth) equally. Patriotism/nationalism - level 2 ‘in-group’ morality - uses artificial borders, ‘difference’ and ‘superiority’ to separate ‘us’ from ‘them’. Patriotism/nationalism is the delusional belief that an imagined part [‘nation-state’] is separate and independent from, and superior to the Whole [Earth]. The Declaration of Independence is mired in this inanely divisive mind-set (not to mention its utter hypocrisy). When humanity, and particularly 'americans', have eventually moved beyond their infantile state of denial, they will understand and declare our profound Interdependence with all Earthlings.
In Borders / In Bombs We Trust
“Tribal nationalism [patriotism] always insists that its own people are surrounded by ‘a world of enemies’ - ‘one against all’ - and that a fundamental difference exists between this people and all others. It claims its people to be unique, individual, incompatible with all others, and denies theoretically the very possibility of a common mankind long before it is used to destroy the humanity of man.” -Hannah Arendt, The Origins Of Totalitarianism ~ “Seas of blood have been shed for the sake of patriotism. One would expect the harm and irrationality of patriotism to be self-evident to everyone. But the surprising fact is that cultured and learned people not only do not notice the harm and stupidity of patriotism, they resist every unveiling of it with the greatest obstinacy and passion (with no rational grounds) and continue to praise it as beneficent and elevating. In its simplest, clearest and most indubitable signification, patriotism is nothing else but a means of obtaining for the rulers their ambitions and covetous desires, and for the ruled the abdication of human dignity, reason, conscience and a slavish enthrallment to those in power.” -Leo Tolstoy ~ “Blind patriotism has been kept intact by rewriting history to provide people with moral consolation and a psychological basis for denial.” -William H. Boyer [blind patriotism, like wet water, is redundant]
“A patriot sets himself apart in his own country under his own flag, sneers at other nations and keeps an army of uniformed assassins (‘troops’/terrorists) on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people's countries and keep them from grabbing slices of his. In the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for ‘the universal brotherhood of man’ with his mouth.” -Mark Twain, The Lowest Animal ~ “One of the great attractions to patriotism, it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of a nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat while feeling [and proudly proclaiming] we are profoundly virtuous.” -Aldous Huxley ~ “Patriotism means advocating plunder in the interests of the privileged [elite/ruling] class of your country.” -Ernest B. Bax ~ “Patriotism is the belief that your country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” -George Bernard Shaw ~ “Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill.”*-R. Aldington ~ “Patriotism is flag-cheering national self-assertion with no constructive duties.” -H.G. Wells ~ “A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry and a common fear of its neighbors.” -W.R. Inge ~ “A patriot is one to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. A patriot is the dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.” -Ambrose Bierce ~ “To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.”*-George Santayana
“Patriotism is a religion, the egg from which wars are hatched.”*-Guy de Maupassant ~ “Patriotism is the principle that justifies wholesale murder.” -Leo Tolstoy ~ “Patriotism - the virtue of the vicious.” -Oscar Wilde ~ “Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.” -Bertrand Russell ~ “Born in iniquity and conceived in sin, nationalism has never ceased to bring humanity dissension and distress.” -Thorstein Veblin ~ “Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy.” -George Bernard Shaw ~ “Nationalism is an infantile disease.” -Albert Einstein ~ “Patriotism is a menace to liberty.” -Emma Goldman ~ “Patriotism is a survival from barbarous times which must not only be evoked and educated but which must be eradicated by all means – by preaching, persuasion, contempt and ridicule.” -Leo Tolstoy ~ “Patriotism is fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone and as irrational as a headless hen.” -Ambrose Bierce ~ “The time will soon come when calling someone a patriot will be the deepest insult.” -Ernest B. Bax ~ “Patriotism is a maggot in their heads.” -Thoreau (referring to supporters of the U$ invasion of Mexico)
“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” -Samuel Johnson ~ “I submit that patriotism is the first refuge of a scoundrel.” -Ambrose Bierce ~ “It is even worse - I submit patriotism is the first, last and middle range of fools.” -H. L. Menken ~ “Fundamentalism is the last refuge of a patriot.” -Subir Ghosh ~ “I submit that mindless fundamentalism is the first refuge of a patriot.” -dragonfly
“Patriotism is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a web of lies and falsehoods, robbing us of our dignity and increasing our arrogance and conceit.” -Emma Goldman ~ “This disgrace should be done away with at once. Heroism on command senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism.” -Albert Einstein ~ “Patriotism is a superstition, one far more injurious, brutal and inhumane than religion.” -Gustave Herve ~ “Patriotism is combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.” -Ambrose Bierce ~ “What produces war is the desire for the exclusive good for one’s own nation - what is called patriotism. To abolish war it is necessary to abolish patriotism, and to abolish patriotism it is necessary first to understand that patriotism is an evil. Tell people that patriotism is bad and most of them will laugh and say: ‘Yes, bad patriotism is bad, but my patriotism is good!’ ” -Leo Tolstoy
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Immersed in Orwellian doublethink (holding two opposing and contradictory beliefs simultaneously while fervently believing both despite being notionally aware, or even willfully unaware, of their incompatibility) we are taught the equivalent of Orwellian WAR IS PEACE and FREEDOM IS SLAVERY: PATRIOTISM IS LOVE ~ PEACE IS PATRIOTIC ~ DISSENT IS PATRIOTIC ~ PATRIOTISM IS INTEGRITY ~ PATRIOTISM IS UNITY
Patriotism, conditioned belief in divisive borders/nation-states, is the antithesis of love, peace, dissent, integrity and unity. The etymology of ‘patriotism’ (same root as patriarchy) is ‘allegiance to the fatherland’, i.e. belief in artificial borders and allegiance/loyalty to (‘love’ of) the ‘nation-state’ (fatherland) that seemingly separates ‘us’ from ‘them’ (level 2 ‘in-group’ morality). Since simply identifying with any in-group (nation-state) implies loyalty/allegiance to, and support for that in-group (nation-state), one need not mindlessly wave a flag to be patriotic - just believing in artificial political borders, just identifying yourself as an ‘american’ is patriotism. A patriot may or may not agree with elected rulers (‘leaders’) but it is neither dissent nor loyalty to rulers that makes a patriot or defines patriotism - patriotism is simply and proudly identifying with a part rather than the whole.
Lifelong conditioning promotes the doublethink belief that patriotism is a noble virtue (‘black is white’), compelling one to redefine patriotism as ‘love’, ‘peace’, ‘dissent’, ‘integrity’, ‘virtuousness’, ‘unity’, ‘defending sacred principles’, ‘questioning authority’, ‘following your conscience’, ‘critical thinking’ or even ‘sense-of-place’ (a natural bond with one’s immediate bioregion). Patriotism is the antithesis of love, peace, dissent, integrity and unity and has nothing whatsoever to do with questioning authority, following your conscience, defending sacred principles or critical thinking. I know an anarchist who has so completely swallowed 'patriotism-as-a-virtue' that he unabashedly declares patriotism to be “allegiance to Mother Earth”!
Great thinkers like Thoreau, Mark Twain and Eugene Debs also swallowed the doublethink ‘patriotism-as-a-virtue’ fraud, seeing ‘good’ and bad patriotism. Fifty years before Orwell coined the term doublethink in his seminal 1984, Tolstoy, one of the very few who saw through this deeply imprinted contradictory ‘patriotism-as-a-virtue’ conditioning, warned us about otherwise intelligent people cemented into doublethink and denial who “not only do not notice the harm and stupidity of patriotism, they resist every unveiling of it with the greatest obstinacy and passion (with no rational grounds) and continue to praise it as beneficent and elevating”. Patriotism/nationalism, along with racism, religionism and competition, is an Elite tool of separation used to divide and conquer the masses.
Patriotism/nationalism not only imprints the delusion that being born on ‘this side’ of an artificial, arbitrary border (‘american’) makes one inherently different than being born on the ‘other side’ (‘mexican’) but also generally instills (like sexism, racism and religion) a blatant and even maliciously divisive arrogance based on delusional superiority and God’s preferential favoritism of one’s ‘side’ (in-group/nation-state).
Most dictionaries define patriotism as ‘love’ of one’s country, inferring that patriots don’t ‘love’ other countries. This makes patriotism ‘conditional’ love - a total contradiction. Love is only and always UNCONDITIONAL (i.e. love with NO conditions). Love is not a feeling or emotion - it is the profound realization of the Oneness of All-That-Is. To express ‘love’ for one person, a few people, a flavor of ice cream or a country is not love - it is attachment. God realization is simply demonstrating the ability to love (unconditionally) all-that-is. God loves all equally since God IS ALL (Infinite Unity). God is love, and love (God) sees no borders, no nationalities, no skin color and no religious beliefs. Love (God) is blind as a bat and indifferent to any and all ‘differences’, vices or virtues. Love (God) accepts all with open arms and absolutely no conditions. Since love is always unconditional it is redundant to qualify it by putting the word ‘unconditional’ in front of it - ‘unconditional' love is as unnecessary as 'corrupt' politics.
Eugene Debs said ‘good’ patriotism was the “highest form of love” (gag me with a spoon) and “defending sacred principles and resisting tyranny and oppression”. Twain and Thoreau both believed ‘good’ patriotism was the “highest virtue” and “following your conscience”. Socrates believed patriotism was ‘questioning authority’ and ‘critical thinking’. With all due respect to these great minds, they swallowed ‘patriotism-as-a-virtue’ hook, line and sinker, each one redefining it to correspond with their own particular lofty ideal of virtuousness. Even these great minds could not break through the lifelong patriotic indoctrination and see patriotism for what it truly is - a tried and true Elite tool of arrogance (like religion) used to separate humanity into easily controlled, manipulated, competing in-groups (‘nation-states’). Thoreau said patriotism was the “highest virtue” while also contradictorily saying patriotism was “a maggot in their heads” (as it truly is) - can it be both? Can there be a good patriot and a bad patriot? Can anyone who identifies with an in-group that arrogantly separates themselves from the rest of the human family because of imagined differences or superiority truly be considered good? Thoreau said “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the roots”, but he himself apparently couldn’t strike at his conditioned belief in ‘good’ patriotism - a fundamental root of evil in the world.
For Eugene Debs, who gave us the quote “I have no country to fight for, my country is Earth and I am a citizen of the world”, to define good patriotism as “defending sacred principles” is like Martin Luther King, who tirelessly worked to end racism, defining 'good racism' as 'defending civil rights'. Many, like Debs, are moving into global consciousness but have yet to move beyond their identification with, and pride in, divisive artificial political borders and nation-states (i.e. being an ‘american’) and their belief in ‘good’ patriotism. Such is the depth of lifelong ‘patriotism-as-a-virtue’ imprinting that few can extract themselves from their unconscious immersion in it and realize their denial of the doublethink contradiction they’ve swallowed, including contemporary progressives like Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Amy Goodman and Michael Moore (simply ask them if they’re ‘americans’). As Tolstoy well understood “Tell people that patriotism is bad and most of them will laugh and say: ‘Yes, bad patriotism is bad, but my patriotism is good!”
We are taught that patriotism and nationalism are two different concepts. Patriotism is highly moral, virtuous, peaceful, questioning, protective and blessed by God - and is what ‘we’ do. Nationalism is immoral, proud, warmongering, repressive, manipulative, violent, despotic and is what ‘they’, the manufactured, contrived enemy, do. In reality there is absolutely no difference between patriotism and nationalism, two words describing the same delusional, divisive arrogance. Accusing the alleged ‘enemy’ of being ‘nationalistic’ simply defuses the obvious contradiction that arises if the ‘enemy’ is also patriotic and therefore surely also ‘virtuous’. How can you get the masses to go along with a patriotically contrived, manufactured war against a people who are also patriotically ‘virtuous’? Using ‘nationalism’ to demonize the ‘enemy’ is the simple solution to the problem of mass-murder to steal others' land and resources (i.e. ‘war’). It’s no coincidence that the doublethink concept of ‘good’ mass-murder/terrorism is continually sold to us under the guise of a patriotic war.
Many find it difficult to question such respected ones as Socrates, Thoreau, Twain, Debs, Chomsky etc., believing these great thinkers would surely have seen the contradiction of ‘good’ patriotism. However, as insightful as they were/are on other issues, as much as they were/are able to question other conditioned beliefs, they couldn’t/can’t bring themselves to question the deeply imprinted contradiction of ‘good’ patriotism. Many rationalize redefining patriotism as 'virtuous', 'love', ‘dissent’, ‘peace’, ‘defending sacred principles’ etc. by saying there’s nothing wrong with redefining a word to mean the opposite of its original meaning. I wonder what their reaction would be if I called their mothers whores, while casually adding that my definition of whore was a highly moral, virtuous woman?
The U$ has redefined ‘terrorism’ so the real terrorists (invading 'troops') are ‘liberators’ while those defending their homes and freedom are ‘terrorists’. War (unprovoked invasion and occupation) is the most intense form terrorism, and those who prosecute war (the 'troops') are the most heinous terrorists. War is usually always initiated by a bigger, stronger in-group against a smaller, weaker in-group who has something the other wants. Defending yourself from terrorist invaders is not war, just as defending yourself from a mugger is not assault and battery.
For those who believe patriotism ‘unites’ people (as in uniting ‘americans’), this so-called ‘unity’ is accomplished by separating humanity into competing in-groups. By this astounding feat of logic racists could also claim that racism actually ‘unites’ racists (in reality separating humanity by race), sexists could claim sexism ‘unites’ sexists (in reality separating humanity by sex) and religionists could claim religion ‘unites’ those who believe in the same dogma (in reality separating humanity by dogma). Patriotism, racism, sexism, religion etc. are examples of Elite tools used to separate humanity into competing, easily controlled groups with the belief they are ‘independent’, ‘different’, ‘superior’ and ‘God’s chosen ones’.
The time has come to move beyond the infantile, arrogant belief in imaginary borders that separates humanity into ‘different’, ‘incompatible’, competing, warring nation-states. It is time to create a non-hierarchal, cooperative, consensual global village of bio-regionally networked communities rooted in an awakened realization of the Interconnected Oneness/Unity of all Life.
nurturetruth
10-02-2007, 09:09 PM
Thank you "Dragonfly Dreams" for this !
though some of the quotes you posted were a bit challenging to read due to all the quotes running together.. but ..they were GREAT quotes to post!
I love reading what great minds have to say!
:thumbsup:
The Myth of Patriotism
Many find it difficult to question such respected ones as Socrates, Thoreau, Twain, Debs, Chomsky etc., believing these great thinkers would surely have seen the contradiction of ‘good’ patriotism. However, ..
nurturetruth
10-04-2007, 01:42 PM
I fully support , and agree with the below quote/statement !
i could not have said it better! :thumbsup:
Anyone else have "thoughts" or feelings regarding Patriotism ?
Columbus day is now coming up. Wonder if there will be flag waving for that?
I have actually heard that after the Holocaust, Germany banned flag waving or flag flying and considered it a sign of fascism .
Though saying this, I do have an Earth flag I sometimes like to fly as I consider myself more of a World citizen. (when i am grounded and not floating about with my crown chakra....)
Thanks PurplePig for your link to the video clip and input! :thumbsup:
https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/EarthDay.jpg
The Myth of Patriotism
(myth: a widely held but false belief or idea)
" Patriotism, racism, sexism, religion etc. are examples of Elite tools used to separate humanity into competing, easily controlled groups with the belief they are ‘independent’, ‘different’, ‘superior’ and ‘God’s chosen ones’.
The time has come to move beyond the infantile, arrogant belief in imaginary borders that separates humanity into ‘different’, ‘incompatible’, competing, warring nation-states. It is time to create a non-hierarchal, cooperative, consensual global village of bio-regionally networked communities rooted in an awakened realization of the Interconnected Oneness/Unity of all Life"
Dixon
10-05-2007, 01:09 AM
...Columbus day is now coming up. Wonder if there will be flag waving for that?...
The fact that the USA holds Columbus in such high esteem is one measure of the degree to which brutality informs "our" nation at the most fundamental level.
Anyone who gets beyond the nationalistic myths with which we've all been inculcated and actually looks at the best historical sources on Columbus (such as his own journal and the writings of some early Catholic priests who witnessed the activities of Columbus and his men) will be stunned by the brutality described therein. The Spaniards under Columbus freely raped, tortured and murdered the Indians for enjoyment. They would ride the Indians as a man rides a horse, or sic their vicious dogs on them and laugh as the dogs tore the Indians apart, or run them through with their swords just for fun. Indians who failed to bring them a certain amount of gold every quarter would typically have their hands cut off and be allowed to bleed to death. Columbus himself gave Indian women to his lieutenants as rewards, to treat as they pleased (guess how they treated them), and he personally took somewhere around 5,000 Indians back to Europe with him as slaves, all in the name of the Holy Trinity.
And, of course, in the name of patriotism.
If we can shake off our nationalistic brainwashing enough to see clearly, it becomes obvious that celebrating Columbus Day is every bit as noxious--and, I would argue, immoral--as it would be to celebrate Hitler Day. Anyone who does so is endorsing and encouraging the grossest brutalities imaginable.
I urge everyone to demand an end to bloodstained Columbus Day and replace it with Indigenous Peoples Day. Let's try to raise the consciousnesses of those around us by speaking out. Those of you who have kids in school ought to do your best to assure that they not be subjected to the sick, twisted values implicit in any celebration of Columbus. Perhaps arrangements can be made to have the "other side" presented in our schools for balance?
Dixon
Barry
10-09-2007, 04:54 PM
Cans we PLEASE focus on the REAL issue ....which is... WHO considers themselves to be Patriotic ?
Indeed! This thread got going in all sorts of directions! I've split it into 2 new threads:
Patrilineage (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26882)
Philosophy of Knowledge: Logic and Book Learning vs. Intuition (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26885)Plus the widely esteemed Conrad started a spinoff here: Fathers ... was "Patriotic" (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26862)
And to answer nurturetruth's question: I suppose I consider myself patriotic, etymology and our government aside! Patriotism, or any other kind standing with one group or another, and thus making a distinction between those within the group and those that are not, is a fundamental part of belonging and of community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_of_community). IMO, it starts with the family, whether it's just you and your single foster mother or the "village". And the omnipresent paradox of nondualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonduality), that is of things being distinct without being separate, still applies.