Please join us in this FLY THE FLAG campaign and forward this email immediately to everyone in your address book asking them to also forward it. We have less than two weeks to get the word out all across this great land and into every community in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>United States of <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on">America</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></ST1:PLACE></st1:place></st1:country-region>. If you forward this email to least 11 people and each of those people do the same...you get the idea.
THE PROGRAM IS THIS: :usflag:
On <st1:date Month="9" Day="11" Year="2007">Tuesday, September 11th, 2007</st1:date>, an American flag should be displayed outside every home, apartment, office, and store in the <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"><st1:country-region><st1:place>United States</st1:country-region></st1:place></ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> . Every individual should make it their duty to display an American flag on this anniversary of our country's worst tragedy. We do this in honor of those who lost their lives on 9/11, their families, friends and loved ones who continue to endure the pain, and those who today are fighting at home and abroad to preserve our cherished freedoms.
:usflag:
In the days, weeks and months following 9/11, our country was bathed in American flags as citizens mourned the incredible losses and stood shoulder-to-shoulder against terrorism. Sadly, those flags have all but disappeared. Our patriotism pulled us through some tough times and it shouldn't take another attack to galvanize us in solidarity. Our American flag is the fabric of our country and together we can prevail over terrorism of all kinds.
Action Plan: So, here's what we need you to do...
(1) Forward this email to everyone you know (at least 11 people). Please don't be the one to break this chain. Take a moment to think back to how you felt on 9/11 and let those sentiments guide you.
(2) Fly an American flag of any size on 9/11. :usflag:
Honestly, Americans should fly the flag year-round, but if you don't, then at least make it a priority on this day. :usflag:
Thank you for your participation.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<O:P></O:P>God Bless You, and :usflag:
Wow Lorrie, you post this and ask us to foward it to everyone in our address books, as if "of course" we would. Do you have any idea how offensive this flag is to many of us? Do you have any idea how much terrorism is carried out in the name of this flag?
Do you think that if we just keep stirring the the coals of 9/11 and waving enough flags that this will somehow justify the carnage involved in helping the corporations to steal Iraq's oil?
Peel the flag away from your face long enough to see the world through your human eyes! Then talk about godbless....
Neil
Dixon
09-07-2007, 02:51 AM
...Every individual should make it their duty to display an American flag on this anniversary of our country's worst tragedy.
9/11 was our worst tragedy? Worse than the genocide of millions of indigenous people that this country is founded upon? Worse than the slavery that created our early wealth? Worse than the brutal depredations that we support all over the world to keep us on top of the heap? Worse than the thousands of USAmericans who die annually due to lack of health care coverage?
We do this in honor of...those who today are fighting at home and abroad to preserve our cherished freedoms.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] :usflag:
Lorrie, I'm confused--who are these people you mention who are fighting abroad to preserve our freedoms? Do you mean "our troops" in Iraq and Afghanistan? I thought they were simply murdering innocent men, women and children so we can seize control of the world's oil (among several other ignoble reasons). If they're actually fighting for our freedoms, could you please specify what freedoms they're protecting and how killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan preserves those freedoms? That's not a rhetorical question, Lorrie; I'D LIKE AN ANSWER.
Our patriotism pulled us through some tough times...
Speak for yourself, Lorrie; I'm not afflicted with patriotism. Patriotism is a euphemism for the form of bigotry known as nationalism, which, like racism, sexism and heterosexism, involves the delusion that the group we identify with is superior, more worthy than others. If you care about USAmericans more than you do about Chinese, Arabs, Mexicans, or anyone else, I implore you to re-examine your attitudes.
I like Ambrose Bierce's definition of "patriot" from his classic "Devil's Dictionary": "Patriot...One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors."
Our American flag is the fabric of our country...
And as such it represents genocide, slavery, hypocrisy, greed, arrogance, phony "democracy", and rampant environmental rape, among other wonderful things. How inspiring. I'd rather fly used toilet paper than the US flag.
...together we can prevail over terrorism of all kinds.
Gee, do you mean we'll stop terrorizing the world? No more supporting murderous dictators who are friendly to USAmerican interests? No more environmental destruction for short-term profit? No more wars of aggression? Or have you bought the bullshit that "terrorists" are those whom our government doesn't like?
Take a moment to think back to how you felt on 9/11 and let those sentiments guide you.
Good idea! Here's how I felt on 9/11: I was surprised that so many people thought it was such a big deal. I'd already been horrified to the point of near-stupefaction for decades, ever since realizing how brutal our "business as usual" is (the aforementioned genocide, wars of aggression, support of dictators, etc.). At the time of 9/11 the USA had for years been enforcing pointless sanctions which were starving nearly 5,000 innocent Iraqis per month to death. But apparently you feel that the deaths of less than 3,000 USAmericans on 9/11 is more tragic than that. What's the rate of exchange, Laurie? One USAmerican is worth a hundred Iraqis? A thousand?
So on 9/11 we got a tiny taste of the kind of horror our country is founded upon and which we continue to perpetrate at will around the globe. It seems like most USAmericans can't take it nearly as well as we dish it out.
God Bless America!!
Why "God Bless America"?, Lorrie? Why not "God Bless the whole world"? Until you and lots of other folks get it through your heads that we're One human race on One planet and get beyond the insanity of separate countries fighting for dominance, we'll continue to live on a brutal planet.
If you want me to fly a flag, give me one that represents the whole world, not some brutal, arrogant, greedy, warlike empire.
Dixon
glenclem
09-07-2007, 07:55 AM
file:///Users/Nick/Desktop/flytheflag.asp.html
On Sept.11 I will display an American flag at half-mast and upside down to both remember this event (which changed my life), all the people who died and are still dyeing, and to make a statement on the condition of the government of the U.S.
Glen
Larissad
09-07-2007, 07:59 AM
A little stronger than I would have said it...but AMEN to that.
I'd like to propose some alternative ways to show remembrance for those who lost their lives on 9/11:
Spend some time cultivating relationships with your family, friends and/or neighbors.
Learn about a different culture.
Write a letter to your congressional reps asking them to call for the troops to be brought home from Iraq.
Write a letter to your congressional reps demanding impeachment of Bush and Cheney.
Discourage youth from joining up.
Cultivate peace within your self by practicing compassion both towards yourself and others.
Get involved in civic matters.
Read the Constitution to your children...or to yourself. Some of us need a refresher.
Stop participating in consumption of goods that use exploited labor: fast food, diamonds, the GAP, etc...
Carpool.These are a few that I thought of just now. I think it is safe to say that there are many out there who are offended by blind patriotism and flag waving. So, let's come up with as many alternatives as we can think of to honor those who have lost their lives and/or family members on 9/11 and all those across the globe who have lost that and more in its wake.
Blessed are the poor in spirit.
Blessed are the meek.
Blessed are they who mourn.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after justice.
Blessed are the merciful.
Blessed are the pure of heart.
Blessed are the peace makers.
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice's sake.
Namaste and Peace to you all.
-Larissa
:2cents:
9/11 was our worst tragedy? Worse than the genocide of millions of indigenous people that this country is founded upon? Worse than the slavery that created our early wealth? Worse than the brutal depredations that we support all over the world to keep us on top of the heap? Worse than the thousands of USAmericans who die annually due to lack of health care coverage?
Lorrie, I'm confused--who are these people you mention who are fighting abroad to preserve our freedoms? Do you mean "our troops" in Iraq and Afghanistan? I thought they were simply murdering innocent men, women and children so we can seize control of the world's oil (among several other ignoble reasons). If they're actually fighting for our freedoms, could you please specify what freedoms they're protecting and how killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan preserves those freedoms? That's not a rhetorical question, Lorrie; I'D LIKE AN ANSWER.
Speak for yourself, Lorrie; I'm not afflicted with patriotism. Patriotism is a euphemism for the form of bigotry known as nationalism, which, like racism, sexism and heterosexism, involves the delusion that the group we identify with is superior, more worthy than others. If you care about USAmericans more than you do about Chinese, Arabs, Mexicans, or anyone else, I implore you to re-examine your attitudes.
I like Ambrose Bierce's definition of "patriot" from his classic "Devil's Dictionary": "Patriot...One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors."
And as such it represents genocide, slavery, hypocrisy, greed, arrogance, phony "democracy", and rampant environmental rape, among other wonderful things. How inspiring. I'd rather fly used toilet paper than the US flag.
Gee, do you mean we'll stop terrorizing the world? No more supporting murderous dictators who are friendly to USAmerican interests? No more environmental destruction for short-term profit? No more wars of aggression? Or have you bought the bullshit that "terrorists" are those whom our government doesn't like?
Good idea! Here's how I felt on 9/11: I was surprised that so many people thought it was such a big deal. I'd already been horrified to the point of near-stupefaction for decades, ever since realizing how brutal our "business as usual" is (the aforementioned genocide, wars of aggression, support of dictators, etc.). At the time of 9/11 the USA had for years been enforcing pointless sanctions which were starving nearly 5,000 innocent Iraqis per month to death. But apparently you feel that the deaths of less than 3,000 USAmericans on 9/11 is more tragic than that. What's the rate of exchange, Laurie? One USAmerican is worth a hundred Iraqis? A thousand?
So on 9/11 we got a tiny taste of the kind of horror our country is founded upon and which we continue to perpetrate at will around the globe. It seems like most USAmericans can't take it nearly as well as we dish it out.
Why "God Bless America"?, Lorrie? Why not "God Bless the whole world"? Until you and lots of other folks get it through your heads that we're One human race on One planet and get beyond the insanity of separate countries fighting for dominance, we'll continue to live on a brutal planet.
If you want me to fly a flag, give me one that represents the whole world, not some brutal, arrogant, greedy, warlike empire.
Dixon
radio4progressives
09-08-2007, 10:06 AM
the sight of this symbol alone makes me ill. that someone should post such jingoistic horsesh*t makes me shutter to realize how anyone with half of a brain (particularly at this juncture) could possibly promote such mindless tripe as this below.
"program" ... ???? just what this country needs, is more mindless but programmed robots cheering on for more bloodshed and imperialism.
good gawd.
Please join us in this FLY THE FLAG campaign and forward this email immediately to everyone in your address book asking them to also forward it. We have less than two weeks to get the word out all across this great land and into every community in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>United States of <st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region u1:st="on">America</st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region>. If you forward this email to least 11 people and each of those people do the same...you get the idea.
THE PROGRAM IS THIS: :usflag:
On <st1:date year="2007" day="11" month="9">Tuesday, September 11th, 2007</st1:date>, an American flag should be displayed outside every home, apartment, office, and store in the <st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region u1:st="on"></st1:country-region></st1:place><st1:country-region><st1:place>United States</st1:place></st1:country-region> . ...<st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:country-region><st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region></st1:country-region></st1:place>
<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>
HolisticKids
09-09-2007, 12:04 AM
"program" ... ???? just what this country needs, is more mindless but programmed robots cheering on for more bloodshed and imperialism.
good gawd.
This is what's being programmed into the majority of kids in America every single day as they stand up in class, put their hands over their hearts and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. This is how they start their day, 5 days a week, beginning in Kindergarten and continuing through high school. When they complete high school, all public school kids have made this pledge to the flag and what it stands for thousands of times. It has been drummed it into their psyches, over and over. This is one of the ways we get programmed robots!
Instead of teaching children to be free-thinkers, to think for themselves about important issues and choose what they want to support, the school system requires them to make a pledge of allegiance to a symbol that represents the violence and other atrocities that our government is perpetrating. What message is this giving our kids? Especially when we teach them that their word is important and when they make a pledge, they should really mean it. My guess is that a lot of kids have never really thought about what they are saying. I never really did, when I was growing and I was reciting it every day.
I had the strangest experience recently, which is why this is on my mind. My daughter has been in a charter school since preschool (where she's never said the pledge) and has just started a regular public middle school. Along with everything else, the pledge of allegiance thing is very wierd for her - she didn't even know the words, but she still stands up and just kind of mouths it. I told her she didn't have to say it, but she's kind of worried about making waves and said she crosses her fingers behind her back as she says it so she's really not making a pledge! Last week I went to the Parent Night at the school. There are 850 kids at this school and the gym was packed with hundreds of parents. At the beginning of the night, the principal said "Let's all stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance". Immediately all the parents stood up, put their hands over their hearts and began reciting - like good programmed robots. Not even thinking, just going along with it. I just stood there with my mouth hanging open, feeling like I was in some kind of other reality. Unfortunately, it was a great big dose of reality for me. It seems the majority of people out there don't see any problem with this. Is it just me who thinks this is not right?
Jane
Jane
Dixon
09-09-2007, 12:58 AM
... At the beginning of the night, the principal said "Let's all stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance". Immediately all the parents stood up, put their hands over their hearts and began reciting - like good programmed robots. Not even thinking, just going along with it. I just stood there with my mouth hanging open, feeling like I was in some kind of other reality. Unfortunately, it was a great big dose of reality for me. It seems the majority of people out there don't see any problem with this. Is it just me who thinks this is not right?
Take heart, Jane. You are not alone, as you can see from the other responses on this thread. Many others of us are as horrified as you by such fascist ritual programming. And on top of that, they violated the doctrine of separation of church and state by adding "...under God..." some years ago. This kind of programming and identification of the state with God is pretty much necessary if you wanna have an empire that conquers the world. This is one reason why I don't work in the public schools.
Dixon
LaurieSequana
09-09-2007, 10:33 AM
I have also been uncomfortable with the patriotism, pledge and flag waving associated with being an American. My son learned an alternative pledge to the earth which we have enjoyed over the years. He learned it form his first grade teacher, in public school! It goes like this:
"I pledge allegiance to the earth and to the flora, fauna and human life that it supports. One planet indivisible, with safe air, water & soil, economic justice, equal rights and peace for all."
For another slant on all this, I recommend reading some of Barbara Kingsolver's essays, written in the year following 9/11. She is a very intelligent and articulate writer. She has a great affection for this country and grew up thinking of the flag as something special (different from myself), yet she has a great way of explaining how she maintains positive feelings for this country and the flag, while being a free thinker and opposing the behavior of our legislators. Here is a link to one of the versions of what she wrote, though I read a book of essays.
https://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/kingsolver2.htm
Laurie Sequana Stolmaker
HolisticKids
09-09-2007, 12:15 PM
Thanks, Laurie, this alternative pledge is truly beautiful! Maybe I'll go to the next PTA meeting (or whatever they call it now), bring it up and propose this alternative. Perhaps it will spawn some thinking, who knows?
Jane
I have also been uncomfortable with the patriotism, pledge and flag waving associated with being an American. My son learned an alternative pledge to the earth which we have enjoyed over the years. He learned it form his first grade teacher, in public school! It goes like this:
"I pledge allegiance to the earth and to the flora, fauna and human life that it supports. One planet indivisible, with safe air, water & soil, economic justice, equal rights and peace for all."
For another slant on all this, I recommend reading some of Barbara Kingsolver's essays, written in the year following 9/11. She is a very intelligent and articulate writer. She has a great affection for this country and grew up thinking of the flag as something special (different from myself), yet she has a great way of explaining how she maintains positive feelings for this country and the flag, while being a free thinker and opposing the behavior of our legislators. Here is a link to one of the versions of what she wrote, though I read a book of essays.
https://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/kingsolver2.htm
Laurie Sequana Stolmaker
Barrie
09-09-2007, 12:36 PM
It is sad that our flag has come to represent tyranny and oppression around the world. I was very relieved when my neighbor took down her American flag and is now flying a rainbow. If the current United States of America were around when the 13 Brittish colonies were rebelling against England, the USA would be funding the supression of the American "insurgents." We have forgotton what we once stood for, now it is consumerism and keep the oil coming at any cost. Stick a frozen pizza in the microwave and watch TV.
Barrie
Dixon
09-09-2007, 03:43 PM
We have forgotton what we once stood for, now it is consumerism and keep the oil coming at any cost.
"...what we once stood for..."? Many feel that this country started as a pretty good democracy and has become corrupt. This is partly due to the censored, distorted pack of nationalistic lies we are taught from childhood on up in the guise of "history" (see the excellent book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James W. Loewen). While some things have improved and some have gotten worse, it needs to be understood that this country was always based on greed, corruption and profound brutality (genocide, slavery, etc.). The USA, like most countries, has never been an honest attempt at a democracy; it's always been a corrupt oligarchy. Our task is to try to create a world-wide democracy, which will presumably not be a reality within our lifetimes, but maybe we can get the ball rolling...
Dixon
Tars
09-09-2007, 04:38 PM
Lorrie -
You see what happens here when you post something that someone else disagrees with - you get called all manner of names.
Thank you for your message. We already proudly fly the Stars & Stripes as often as conditions permit. I'm not a fan of the whole chain letter technique. I leave it up to each individual whether they want to take part or not in displaying our national symbol.
I fly our flag because I am exceedingly proud of our nation. Yes, there have been abominations and social injustices perpetrated under its symbol. Same as there have been for virtually every nation, religion, or other social grouping that exists now, or has ever existed. People forget that there have been fantastically great things accomplished by the U.S. as well. It's so easy to criticize, turn up the nose, and say, "I don't belong", magnitudes more difficult to actually take part and create good.
I'm ashamed of horrors currently being done in the name of U.S. patriotism, under the symbol of our flag. But I believe our country, and our system, has better potential than any other society on Earth, to provide unsurpassed quality of life for all. I encourage people not to give up just yet, change is on the horizon.
One of the wonderful aspects of the society, for which the Star & Stripes is the main symbol, is that we can publicly criticize and complain; we can even say vile things about our society, without fear. If the people complaining here, trailing their vapors of glory, did that in other countries, even the supposedly shining examples of democracy, they might quite possibly end up in jail, or in an unmarked grave someplace. Instead of just bitching & moaning & focusing solely on the bad things, gripes' time would be more constructively spent creating good. We all, even the ones who disavow participation, are part of the U.S.
In the last decade especially, the U.S. has stumbled mightily. There's so much that needs to be done to get this country back on the right track. Much better to roll up sleeves & get to work, instead of just complaining.
Tars
Clancy
09-09-2007, 05:20 PM
SAMUEL JOHNSON:
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
BARBARA EHRENREICH:
No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.
EDWARD R. MURROW:
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.
EMMA GOLDMAN:
Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.
GOETHE:
Patriotism ruins history.
H. L. MENCKEN:
In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.
HENRY STEELE COMMAGER:
Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.
HOWARD THURMAN:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.
SINCLAIR LEWIS:
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.
radio4progressives
09-09-2007, 08:47 PM
Lorrie -
<snipped>
One of the wonderful aspects of the society, for which the Star & Stripes is the main symbol, is that we can publicly criticize and complain; we can even say vile things about our society, without fear.
<snipped>
Tars
Oh Really?
Publically criticize and complain without Fear you say?
Well check this out, my brother.. here's just one of thousands of examples that contradict that piece of propaganda...
One of the wonderful aspects of the society, for which the Star & Stripes is the main symbol, is that we can publicly criticize and complain; we can even say vile things about our society, without fear.
<snipped>
Tars
Here's a link to different video clip showing Vet. Adam Kokesh along with anothr Veteran comrade (Tina Richards) getting arrested by S.W.A.T. for legally posting upcoming anti-war demonstration event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EAfPgX7gs0
Dixon
09-10-2007, 02:55 AM
Hi, Tars!
You see what happens here when you post something that someone else disagrees with - you get called all manner of names.
I reread this whole thread and didn't find one instance wherein Lorrie was called a name, Tars, though admittedly some of us expressed our horror at the implications of her position quite strongly, making it clear that we're disgusted with her for taking that position. Do you imagine that we could really address the issues without doing that, Tars?
I fly our flag because I am exceedingly proud of our nation.
"Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." --from the Bible (the book of Proverbs, if I remember correctly from my fundamentalist days).
Yes, there have been abominations and social injustices perpetrated under its symbol. Same as there have been for virtually every nation, religion, or other social grouping that exists now, or has ever existed.
No, Tars, not the same. Few if any other countries slaughtered as many innocents to found their country, and we have never addressed that issue honestly as a nation. The USA was one of the last (maybe the last?) to illegalize slavery. The USA keeps itself on top by supporting more torturing, murdering repressive regimes than any other country (so we can exploit those countries' resources at their citizens' expense), sometimes destabilizing quite reasonable democracies and replacing them with US-friendly dictators. The USA arrogates to itself waaaay more than its share of our planet's resources, at everyone else's expense. The USA has the widest gap between the haves and have-nots of any industrialized country. The USA is the only industrialized country without health coverage for all. The USA is the single biggest impediment to worldwide adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The USA is the greatest impediment to the illegalization of landmines, which kill or maim 16,000 innocent people (mainly children) a year. The USA exercises its veto in the UN, thwarting the will of the world community, far more than any other country. The USA is the biggest per capita source of pollution, global warming, resource depletion, acid rain, and garbage. The USA has the biggest (or maybe 2nd biggest?) proportion of its citizens behind bars, many (most?) of them for victimless "crimes", while its "leaders" commit blatant crimes daily with impunity. The USA has more weapons, and more WMD's, than the rest of the world combined, and is the biggest source of weapons for other countries, including murderously repressive countries. The USA is the only country that illegally invades or bombs some helpless little country of its choice every few years, with impunity because we're bristling with weapons and ruthless enough to use them. The USA is the world's most influential advocate of torture and erosion of human rights. The USA is the most out-of-control rogue nation on earth. The USA, including actions it supports by its client states and other allies, is the biggest source of terrorism on the planet. The USA is less democratic than most if not all of the so-called "Western democracies". The government of the USA is one of the most blatantly corrupt on the planet. And the USA quite possibly has the biggest gap of any country in the world between the idealized picture it paints of itself and the grubby reality.
I could go on in this vein, Tars, but hopefully that's enough to make my point.
People forget that there have been fantastically great things accomplished by the U.S. as well.
Sure, that's true of all countries, and I like movies, comic books, rock 'n' roll and moon landings as much as the next person, but focusing on them while we wave the flag, ignoring the huge rotting elephant in the living room, is not constructive.
Even some of the really great things, such as helping to defeat Hitler, lose much of their luster when looked at closely. Note that we didn't oppose Hitler and his allies until it became clear that our own asses were threatened. Before that, we were happy to let the Nazis swallow country after country and totally fuck over the Jews , among others. And guys like Henry Ford and Dubya's grandpa Prescott Bush made big $$ by helping the Nazis, with impunity. It's the Amerikkkan way.
Or how about our much-vaunted foreign aid generosity? We actually give a smaller percentage of our GNP as foreign aid than any industrialized country. And when we do give aid, it's usually if not always self-serving, a carrot-and-stick to manipulate other countries. Ask the Yemenis, for just one example.
It's so easy to criticize...
No it's not, Tars, it's FUCKIN' AGONIZING! Do you think I enjoy feeling that the most powerful empire the world has ever seen is a brutal, malign behemoth bent on world domination at any cost, and supported by my tax dollars? Do you think addressing these horrifying issues is fun for me? I'd much rather be able to join you in blithely waving the flag and telling myself that things are basically alright, but I'm too honest and too concerned to allow myself that luxury. Refute my position if you can, Tars (and I really hope you can!), but don't insult me by suggesting that I'm complaining because it's "easy" or fun. It's neither.
I'm ashamed of horrors currently being done in the name of U.S. patriotism, under the symbol of our flag.
I think that speaks well of you, Tars. Now if only you become ashamed enough to stop flying the flag, that will be real progress.
But I believe our country, and our system, has better potential than any other society on Earth, to provide unsurpassed quality of life for all.
I would agree, Tars, that the USA has more talent, influence and $$ than just about anybody, and thus more potential to improve things. The problem is that our system, based as it is on greed, imperialism, lies and dominance, misuses most of that potential for evil instead of good. We can do better than that!
I encourage people not to give up just yet...
I'm not; that's why I keep ranting! I'm hoping to help raise consciousnesses enough to turn this ship around. But I have the impression that you would really prefer that I give up.
...change is on the horizon.
That's always the case. The question is, What kind of change? The current national agenda of world domination at any cost and global environmental destruction for short-term profit? Or something more humane and sustainable? If we want the latter, we MUST remove our nationalistic blinders to face our own national darkness in order to effectively address our global crises.
One of the wonderful aspects of the society, for which the Star & Stripes is the main symbol, is that we can publicly criticize and complain; we can even say vile things about our society, without fear. If the people complaining here, trailing their vapors of glory, did that in other countries, even the supposedly shining examples of democracy, they might quite possibly end up in jail, or in an unmarked grave someplace.
Tell it to Eugene Debs and others who did prison time for criticizing World War One. Tell it to John Sinclair, Mumia Abu-Jamal, and so many others who were imprisoned on trumped up charges and/or killed for their outspokenness. Tell it to the workers who were killed for demanding their rights to reasonable hours, pay and safety. Tell it to those who are not allowed to board commercial airplane flights because they're active in the Green Party or otherwise dissenting. Tell it to journalists who lose their jobs for reporting politically inexpedient truths while "journalists" who are nothing more than propaganda mouthpieces prosper. Tell it to foreign nationals like John Lennon and many others who are denied entry or expelled from the country for dissenting.
And the irony is that many, maybe most, of the countries we could cite as examples of repression were made that way by the USA! Repressive states like Chile, Iran, Haiti and others were much more free until we helped replace democratically elected leaders like Allende, Mosaddeq and Aristide with friendly dictators who help us rip off their resources, at horrific expense to their people, who are exploited, tortured, repressed, killed, etc. so that the USA can stay on top of the global heap.
Instead of just bitching & moaning & focusing solely on the bad things, gripes' time would be more constructively spent creating good.
Note that you're bitching and moaning about others' bitching and moaning, Tars.
As far as focusing on bad things, I am doing so precisely so that we can start to create good. How much good do you think we can create if we have an unrealistic view of the source(s) of the problems in the first place? If we persist in seeing the USA as the good guys just because it happens to be our country, and continue to scapegoat others for the world's problems, things will only deteriorate. What you call "bitching and moaning" is an essential first step in realistically addressing our problems. The fact that you want to dismiss it as bitching and moaning makes me wonder if you're willing to address our problems realistically or would rather assuage your fears by patriotic distortion and denial.
And, given that we are pretty much immersed in sweet-sounding nationalistic propaganda (look at any public school history book, observe the children being required to mouth the Pledge of Allegiance, note the disgusting spectacle of Columbus Day, when we celebrate an invading, murdering, raping, torturing slaver as a national hero, listen to the flag-wavers repeat for the zillionth time the myths of democracy), I'm simply balancing things out with my criticisms. There are still a hundred blithe flag-wavers for every critic like me. Don't you want balance, Tars?
We all, even the ones who disavow participation, are part of the U.S.
We all, even the ones who are afflicted with the divisive folly of nationalism, are part of Mother Earth.
In the last decade especially, the U.S. has stumbled mightily. There's so much that needs to be done to get this country back on the right track.
No, we haven't stumbled, we're right on track--the same basic track we've been on since before the USA was founded: the track of power, greed, domination, classism and racism. If you think we're basically the good guys and just need to "get back on the right track" you won't seek change at a fundamental enough level to solve the problems. Without denying the good intentions of many of us, you included, we need to acknowledge that, as a nation, we've never been substantially on the right track, and we need to change our track to something more sane, democratic, just, peaceful and sustainable.
Much better to roll up sleeves & get to work, instead of just complaining.
What you call complaining, done right, is a necessary part of the work. If we don't critique our own nation ruthlessly enough to break through our defensive denial and see our own responsibility for the darkness in the world, we'll continue to tilt at windmills instead of addressing our planet's problems effectively.
I reread this whole thread and didn't find one instance wherein Lorrie was called a name...
mixmaster
09-10-2007, 09:20 AM
As a us army veteran, 1966-1969, (v.f.w., d.a.v.).. the "flag-wavers" posting has got me riled.. since these statements rarely come from people who have seen combat.. or reality for that matter..
This nauseating flag waving is now rampant with those who would have young kids do their murdering-for-profit for them, as they watch on their flat screen tv, filling their pie hole till they nearly burst....
The most corrupt institution in our mortally wounded "democracy" ,the military establishment, is simply a titanic , publicly funded criminal organization, run by corporations, to profit the very few, and to suck the lifeblood out of our nation, and humanity....
Flag waving??, that is for self-deluded minions of the fascist war-mongers, who are desperate to keep humanity from realizing it's true potential, for that would truly be the end of their reign of "terror"..
The real terrorists sit in the white house, not in caves.. and they will not leave gracefully.. they must be driven out.. probably by force, for they will not lightly surrender the reins of power..
Our worst tragedy, is that 9/11 was a self inflicted wound, another false flag operation, designed to get knuckleheads and sincere folk alike to grant the real traitors yet more power.. But if you want more fascist bullshit in your world, these murderous criminals are still in office.. and they are not done committing their deadly treason yet.. 20 months of evil schemes lie ahead.. Plenty of time to oversee the downfall of "democracy", and the final plundering of the U.S. treasury...
Then, with dumb-ass flag waving fools voting, what will follow?? The S.O.S??....
The 4th reich (military-industrial/pseudo-conservative fascists) are already planning our next two or three wars right now.. Iran, Venesuela, Bolivia, maybe Europe.. (google: Jenna Bush in Paraguay) etc.etc.etc.ad nauseum..
the point is not to win, but to distract with bloodshed.. and to create fear and scarcity, artificially, in order to maintain control and primacy.. these folks are not patriots!! they are vampires....
go ahead, wave your silly, (made in Chinese slave labor camp), flag, as our kids are brutalized so that you can pig out...
Brave people do not send kids overseas to die for their luxuries..
mixmaster
9/11 was our worst tragedy? Worse than the genocide of millions of indigenous people that this country is founded upon? ...
Lorrie
09-10-2007, 09:32 AM
I read it all. And what a part of the USA you present!
You have some good points...but still just as much retoric as anything.
Cause history can't be changed, and how can it be changed today to the opposite of what (as you mentioned) is going on now? If we knew I am sure there would be more of an outcry for that change. But there is all that "red-tape" that gets in the way. We the people~ not anymore. (as you make it sound)
If just speaking our minds on the mistakes that others have made would make a difference, I wonder as a whole how the USA would be now? Hmmm.
I personally am politically inept. The flag to me is a heart of the USA tangible to touch, reminders of a great country, freedom, and the people who did there best to uphold and sacrafice for it honorably. Regardless of how and why they chose to fight for it.
When the flag was made, and what it was supposed to symbolise when first presented, is in some ways is in effect, but in others has been made corrupt and now people can look at it like many of you.
There was great promise and hope in the land and the great people who have tried to do good in the beginning for ALL the people.
In my simple mind, the flag represents the land of the United States of America and all the people in it not just a select few corrupt people. We are 50 states! Not just CA.
Maybe you know more about this stuff cause you live in California, Where I am not sure any wars have actually been fought Yes! One: https://www.books-about-california.com/Pages/History_of_California_HEB/History_of_California_Ch06.html
But that was in 1840's And it was a mistake...
Hi, Tars!
I reread this whole thread and didn't find one instance wherein Lorrie was called a name...
Valley Oak
09-10-2007, 09:41 AM
Lorrie, what point are you trying to make with the link that you provided below? I read the article but I don't understand why you felt it was important to post it in your message.
Could you please explain this to us?
Thank you,
Edward
U.S. Citizen
I read it all. And what a part of the USA you present!
You have some good points...but still just as much retoric as anything.
Cause history can't be changed, and how can it be changed today to the opposite of what (as you mentioned) is going on now? If we knew I am sure there would be more of an outcry for that change. But there is all that "red-tape" that gets in the way. We the people~ not anymore. (as you make it sound)
If just speaking our minds on the mistakes that others have made would make a difference, I wonder as a whole how the USA would be now? Hmmm.
I personally am politically inept. The flag to me is a heart of the USA tangible to touch, reminders of a great country, freedom, and the people who did there best to uphold and sacrafice for it honorably. Regardless of how and why they chose to fight for it.
When the flag was made, and what it was supposed to symbolise when first presented, is in some ways is in effect, but in others has been made corrupt and now people can look at it like many of you.
There was great promise and hope in the land and the great people who have tried to do good in the beginning for ALL the people.
In my simple mind, the flag represents the land of the United States of America and all the people in it not just a select few corrupt people. We are 50 states! Not just CA.
Maybe you know more about this stuff cause you live in California, Where I am not sure any wars have actually been fought Yes! One: https://www.books-about-california.com/Pages/History_of_California_HEB/History_of_California_Ch06.html
But that was in 1840's And it was a mistake...
Lorrie
09-10-2007, 10:36 AM
I posted that part so that you would post to ask my why did I post that....! :idea:
The way I see it, There are alot of people out there that are trying to fix what is wrong in our world, just as much as there are people that have torn our world up for whatever selfish reason.
Everyone has their own beliefs from how they were raised to what they have experienced and what has been made to happen in their presence. Everyone has the right to believe what they want!
I have not experienced what others have, just like no one has experienced my life.
What can be done about how America has been atrosious? That is a question that has not been answered with any finality.
There have been these bad things done in America, but I believe that there has been alot done for good too.
Why don't you harp on that, then that would be in the forefront of peoples' minds (all the time)..., maybe good when stuffed down our throats could be the new norm?
Lorrie, what point are you trying to make with the link that you provided below? I read the article but I don't understand why you felt it was important to post it in your message.
Could you please explain this to us?
Thank you,
Edward
U.S. Citizen
lynn
09-10-2007, 12:14 PM
I agree with glenclem's post and idea...there's meaning in that...
****
Nothin' like some of those posts above though...putting the U.S.A. up on the whipping post again...And despite how 'horrible' the U.S.A. has been/is there sure are plenty of people still wanting to come and live here...
And I'm still pretty glad a lot of guys, my neighbor included, survived the Normandy invasion, and I ain't forced to..."Sprechen Sie Deutsch"...
And I'm still counting on the CIA and FBI to do their jobs and keep track of the nutjob terrorists...
****
May the great spirits bless the whole world...there's a hell of a lot of work to be done...
HolisticKids
09-10-2007, 12:40 PM
Here’s how I see it in my persistent (some call it delusional) optimism:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
We have to know what we don’t want in order to know what we do want and in order to do anything about it. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Dixon</st1:place></st1:City> and others have done an excellent job of pointing it all out. Most of this country is in a huge state of denial over what’s really been going on from the beginning. I agree that the entire political system, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> government, military, and foreign policy is corrupt and needs to be dismantled and re-created from a completely different set of principles and values. As <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Dixon</st1:place></st1:City> pointed out, it’s not just the last few years, although the last few years have been so blatantly horrific that it has allowed many of us to wake up and really get a glimpse of what’s going on. Many are deeply angry and saddened. This anger is an important part of the process of moving on from despair and disempowerment. But the important thing is to move on into deciding what it is we want to create that is different.
<o:p></o:p>
I think the first step is to see it for what it is and really get the horror of what’s been going on. The normal reaction to this is despair and a feeling of disempowerment, then anger. Anger is great because it moves us out of despair and disempowerment. But we have to eventually move out of anger and keep going. We can get really pissed off about it, then make peace with it in our own minds because we know we can do something about it. We can begin to envision what it is we want to create.
<o:p></o:p>
The way I’ve made peace with it is to feel a sense of gratitude and appreciation toward the current administration for being such blatant power-grabbers, manipulators and criminals that it has caused many people to be ripped of their stupor of complacency. This is an exciting and great time right now because of the huge mass of authentic, creative power that so many of us are generating in response. This is the power that changes worlds and I’m excited about it.
<o:p></o:p>
So let’s envision what we want it to be, every detail, and begin to think about it and feel it. Not just what we want to happen right now with the current administration, but what do we want our nation and planet to look and feel like in the future? What do we want our government to be? Do we even want a government? What does it all look like? Everyone has a different viewpoint and there are millions of ideas as to what it can become and all these ideas and viewpoints together can make a pretty great future.
<o:p></o:p>
It’s certainly not just about sitting around envisioning. It also takes massive action, but the action must be inspired from a true sense of hopefulness and vision. Once we are in a pretty constant state of this mind-set of what we want it to be, we will be inspired from within to take action to make it happen. Each individual gets inspired to do something different to create their part in the whole. We have so much collective diverse gifts, talents, and creativity that things will start to shift toward this new vision.
<o:p></o:p>
And what does it take to wake up the sleeping masses? I really don’t know. But not everyone needs to wake up if enough people in their authentic power are envisioning and taking action. I think that maybe if there were more people sharing a vision of what it can be to the sleeping masses that more people will latch on to that. I don’t think angry messages of doom and gloom are what will bring people on. I think that a sense of hope and clear vision is more likely to inspire others.
<o:p></o:p>
The thing that makes me so positive and upbeat is that I’ve been doing a kind of a personal study on children over the last 12 years. This and future generations of kids gives me much hope. Kids these days have a true sense of their own selves. Most of them know their power and they won’t let anyone take it away from them. They do not have a respect for “authority” since they can see right through it. They are wise beyond us and can see the manipulation. These kids are the systems busters and they will create new ways of doing things, as long as they are not labeled and drugged for being “not normal”.
<o:p></o:p>
For the most part, children are no longer being raised the way the majority of us were back in the 40s, 50s and 60s. In many pockets of this nation, children are now being cared for and nurtured by parents who have already awakened to shift their own energy into a more peaceful, heart-centered way of being with their kids and allowing them to grow into their full authentic power. This is helping to create a new world one child at a time.
<o:p></o:p>
Yes, the old ones with the old beliefs and attitudes are croaking and the new ones coming in bring with them a breath of fresh air, optimism, a healthy respect for themselves, each other and the Earth, and a whole new way of doing things. I think it’s going to be a pretty good future.
<o:p></o:p>
Jane
mixmaster
09-10-2007, 01:01 PM
You make a great case for my native state, California, bailing from the "union".. i "represent" that part of the union that did not sit on their asses while young boys died on foreign battlefields.. not for "freedom" but for money.. i was a soldier, yes, but from age 17, i never once harbored the illusion that we were fighting for anybody's "freedom"..i might have been young and impressionable, but not stupid and existentially dishonest..
Your ignorant, simplistic view of "patriotism" is causing the deaths of many thousands.. killings enabled by your willfully ignorant mindset.. the CIA that you laud, tortures for you.. The "leaders" that you excuse so readily, are mass murderers.. for you..
They are the foundation of your "culture of death"..
Sleep well............
I read it all. And what a part of the USA you present!
You have some good points...but still just as much retoric as anything.
Cause history can't be changed, and how can it be changed today to the opposite of what (as you mentioned) is going on now? If we knew I am sure there would be more of an outcry for that change. But there is all that "red-tape" that gets in the way. We the people~ not anymore. (as you make it sound)
If just speaking our minds on the mistakes that others have made would make a difference, I wonder as a whole how the USA would be now? Hmmm.
I personally am politically inept. The flag to me is a heart of the USA tangible to touch, reminders of a great country, freedom, and the people who did there best to uphold and sacrafice for it honorably. Regardless of how and why they chose to fight for it.
When the flag was made, and what it was supposed to symbolise when first presented, is in some ways is in effect, but in others has been made corrupt and now people can look at it like many of you.
There was great promise and hope in the land and the great people who have tried to do good in the beginning for ALL the people.
In my simple mind, the flag represents the land of the United States of America and all the people in it not just a select few corrupt people. We are 50 states! Not just CA.
Maybe you know more about this stuff cause you live in California, Where I am not sure any wars have actually been fought Yes! One: https://www.books-about-california.com/Pages/History_of_California_HEB/History_of_California_Ch06.html
But that was in 1840's And it was a mistake...
Tars
09-10-2007, 01:01 PM
I reread this whole thread and didn't find one instance wherein Lorrie was called a name,
Correct Dixon. Instead, I should have said her character had been impugned. From a post early in the thread:
"that someone should post such jingoistic horsesh*t makes me shutter to realize how anyone with half of a brain (particularly at this juncture) could possibly promote such mindless tripe as this below."
would that they had actually been "shuttered". Most accurately she wasn't actually verbatim called a jingoist, or a liar, or stupid, or mindless.
It takes a thick skin around here for some to post, who've been called a variety of spiteful names, seemingly for only refusing to agree in lockstep. perhaps I'm a bit sensitive about that aspect of "discussion" here, having myself been called at various times, stupid, naive, a liar, racist, and let's not forget my favorite, Nazi Imperialist. heh, heh heh...
I'll try to respond to the rest of your follow-up post later. It will require a bit of time to read the whole thing, and there's so much else to do. But you apparently posted it in the spirit of discussion, rather than merely rancor, so I want to give it credence. Thanks for your response.
Lorrie
09-10-2007, 02:26 PM
Wow! you are cruel to assume what I meant by posting that. All I meant was a kindness that we should wave our flag to remember the poor people of 9/11. That is all I meant.
I am not ignorant (especially in light of all the posts) but yes simplistic I will agree since I can neither do nothing to help nor is it my intention to "cause the deaths of many thousands.. killings enabled by my willfully ignorant mindset"
I will disagree with you here, what I believe does not; no, will not kill anyone. I am not the cause=I have not purposly knowingly invested (with money or management) The evils of our world. The ones with the money the power the, shall I say, enjoyment of killing others for gain. If I had my way we would be proud of our flag, freedom, and land we call home. Everyone would have enough of what they need.
I have no money, I have no car, I have some food, I just get by.
But I like to think that before everything got so messed up, Patriotism was something to be proud of. Along with what the flag used to mean.
You're lucky I don't know how to be so cruel, not like Dixon or the others that stomp on my tiny tiney little imput about a flag to remember people that were killed unnecessarily. (and for whatever reason)
You people are really harsh. You talk about what is wrong but what changes have your talk meant or fruitated???? Why do your statements get to be true?
Hmmm, I feel attacked. (Oh! That is the AMERICAN WAY!!) Thanks for clarifiying. I guess you are all right. I will forever keep my opinons to myself, if my ignorance puts me in such a situation.
Where is the love? Oh yeah, It got shot to HELL! Killed... stabbed... devoured... run over... put off for the buck in the USA.
Thanks for the example!
You make a great case for my native state, California, bailing from the "union".. i "represent" that part of the union that did not sit on their asses while young boys died on foreign battlefields.. not for "freedom" but for money.. i was a soldier, yes, but from age 17, i never once harbored the illusion that we were fighting for anybody's "freedom"..i might have been young and impressionable, but not stupid and existentially dishonest..
Your ignorant, simplistic view of "patriotism" is causing the deaths of many thousands.. killings enabled by your willfully ignorant mindset.. the CIA that you laud, tortures for you.. The "leaders" that you excuse so readily, are mass murderers.. for you..
They are the foundation of your "culture of death"..
Sleep well............
AquaGyrl
09-10-2007, 07:16 PM
Why feed the American propaganda machine? Instead why not consider visiting your local merchant or this site:
https://www.evolvefish.com/fish/flags.html
Buy a flag that declares what is IMPORTANT TO YOU, then fly it proudly on 9/11 (if not every day).
:2cents: :2cents:
Please join us in this FLY THE FLAG campaign ...<st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region u1:st="on"><st1:country-region><st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region></st1:country-region></st1:place>
<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>
"Mad" Miles
09-10-2007, 07:50 PM
Dear Patriots and Critics of Patriotism,
I too reacted viscerally when I first read Lorrie's forwarded post celebrating the flying of the Stars and Bars (Ooops! I mean Stars and Stripes...)
One of the greatest tragedies of 911, for me, was the incredible opportunity for national introspection that was flushed for jingoistic, simplistic acts of self congratulation and bonding together in the face of "The Other".
Now I am sympathetic to the need to hunker down and find comfort when attacked, it's a pretty natural psychological response, but what seemed to get lost was that teachable moment to answer the question, "Why the Fuck did this HAPPEN!!!"
Not that there weren't plenty of retrospective histories of Al Queda and how "we" (America/USA) created them. But the focus was on aggrieved outrage and righteous vengeance.
What also got over-looked is that, according to the Flag Code (The rules for the proper and respectful display of "our national symbol"), most if not all of the ways it was being "flown" were disrespectful of the flag itself and were/are violations of that code.
Now I've been an activist on the Left for thirty-three years, so pretty much everything written by Dixon, MixMaster and radio4progressives (et al) "resonates" with me. (To use that trendy term started in the eighties.)
But I was also raised an Army Brat and a Boy Scout. (Cub Scout, Webelo, Every rank up to and including Eagle, Order of the Arrow, the whole schmeer.)
I participated in a proper "flag burning" disposal of a damaged flag at summer camp in the summer of 1968 at Tae Chon Eee. (phonetic spelling, can't recall the exact correct spelling) That was a U.S. Army Hawk Missile base in South Korea where we also had our B.S.A. summer camp.
(It also is the site of some of the longest tides in the world. A half mile, up to a mile, between high and low tide lines! Only the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia, and a few other places, rival it.)
Here's what I've known since seventh grade and apparently 90% of Patriotic Americans (U.S.) don't seem to ken.
You don't display the flag at night unless it is illuminated.
Torn, dirty flags are to be properly retired in a flag burning ceremony. In the ceremony each field of color and each star is symbolically and soberly excised and placed in a paper bag and publicly burned. It could be considered a moving, respectful ceremony, or a creepy quasi-fascistic exercise in symbol worship. I'm of both minds here!
The flag is not to be displayed 24/7. (Unless illuminated at night.) It should be raised properly in the morning and properly lowered in the evening, at or before sunset, at or after sunrise in the morning.
It should be kept clean, and untattered or torn. Dirty flags should be washed until they can't be completely cleaned and then they and torn flags should be retired, preferably in the respectful disposal by burning manner mentioned above.
Flags should not be displayed as stickers and parts of bumperstickers, only cloth flags should be used in public displays.
etc., etc.,
So, almost all of the patriotic flag flying we saw after 911 and possibly tomorrow, is, in actuality, disprespectful of the symbol itself. In fact most of the institutional flag displays at schools and other public buildings are in violation of the flag code and are thereby disrespectful.
Put that in your tit for tat debate and smoke it!
"Mad Miles
:burngrnbounce:
P.S. The claim that only in the United States is dissent legal and tolerated is a bunch of self-congratulatory crap. There are many, many other places in the world with free speech and active and open movements of dissent and protest. The idea that it is only here that people get away with it is an example of rank ignorance.
I've participated in political demonstrations all over Western Europe, in Taiwan and in Hong Kong. And in each the police have shown more tolerance for open dissent than I've experienced in many demonstrations in this country.
In fact some of the more aggro stuff I participated in when I was in England and Spain, while provoking a severe response from tactical riot police, would get you summarily shot here in the "Good 'Ol U.S. of A." It was pro-forma there.
As for peaceful street marches, they were more tolerated outside this country than in, from my, albeit limited yet still more extensive than most other's, experience. Plus I read the news, and what I've seen over the years also supports this view.
Tars
09-11-2007, 01:03 AM
Dixon -
Said I'd follow up ,more on your earlier post when I have the time. Can't sleep, so unfortunately I've got the time.
Yeah yeah yeah, the U.S. is just horrible isn't it? Lots of examples have been given here. But as I'd asked earlier, what country isn't? What religion? What (choose your grouping) of humans hasn't been horrible in some fashion at some time? It's not a U.S. specialty, due to national patriotism, rather it's that humans are evil so often, when given the chance.
U.S. patriotism is just one of those subjects that everyone has their concrete opinion about. Trying to change anyone's mind about it as likely as not just engenders spittle-flecked rants. I surely do understand that there are those here who think the U.S. is evil, mean, and nasty, etc. Hopefully they can understand that there are those, like myself, who think the U.S. historically has been an overall positive influence in the world. I firmly believe we will be again. There is no, nor has there ever been a nation on this globe that is inherently better than the U.S. I am very proud that I was lucky enough to be born a U.S. citizen. I am gonna fly that flag because I'm so proud.
Y'all have a nice day now, hear?
lynn
09-11-2007, 05:38 AM
I'm glad people hashed out this topic a bit...and glad Lorrie piped in again....
Thanks Miles for the lesson on Proper Flag etiquette...Did not know about the 'lighting' rules...
Personally, it sometimes seems that on the 'lefty' perspective side of things...If someone doesn't agree with ones' point of view about the nasty ol' U.S. of A. they are automatically seen as stupid, numbskull-patriotic-robotlike-racist-idiots (one, some, or all of the aformentioned) and on the super 'righty' side of things - those not believing in the wonderful ol' U.S. of A. with serious questions and concerns about what's going on, need to get their butts over to Amsterdam pronto!...
Both 'sides' might have some insights about their foes....But...
What a divided nation we weave...
Maybe, people could agree that as a symbol - the Flag represents different things to different people...And those that do want to fly it...needn't be made to feel ashamed to do so - just because someone else thinks they should feel that way...People ain't on the same page all the time...as world history has attested to...
In honor of someone who died on 9/11...Here's a wonderful idea that people are putting into practice today...
Here's an idea.. fly the flag at half mast, to honor the million or so who have died on Bushs watch..
mixmaster
Why feed the American propaganda machine? Instead why not consider visiting your local merchant or this site:
https://www.evolvefish.com/fish/flags.html
Buy a flag that declares what is IMPORTANT TO YOU, then fly it proudly on 9/11 (if not every day).
:2cents: :2cents:
Lorrie
09-11-2007, 04:32 PM
I'm sorry but it did not go over my head.... Is there a SALE; a way for we the people to spend money on this issue? Did you guys catch that? No one says anything. Here is an issue and yet another trying to make abuck on it.
I am taken aback. (well sort of)
Here's an idea.. fly the flag at half mast, to honor the million or so who have died on Bushs watch..
mixmaster
geomancer
09-11-2007, 08:55 PM
Here's an idea.. fly the flag at half mast, to honor the million or so who have died on Bushs watch..
mixmaster
Personally, being a Pagan, I prefer the flag of the American Revolution: 13 stars in a circle, can't beat that.
Richard
Willie Lumplump
09-11-2007, 10:52 PM
[quote=Lorrie;37048]Please join us in this FLY THE FLAG campaign and forward this email immediately to everyone in your address book asking them to also forward it. We have less than two weeks to get the word out all across this great land and into every community in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>United States of <st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:country-region u1:st="on">America</st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region>. If you forward this email to least 11 people and each of those people do the same...you get the idea. [quot]
Although I share the visceral feelings expressed by nearly all respondents to Lorrie's message, I do think that the discussion would be more enlightening if it were more focused. Lorrie might explain the flying of the flag would accomplish. For example, she could say that it would demonstrate our patriotism, and then she could define what she means by patriotism and state why it is a good thing. She could say that it would help bring Americans together, and then she could explain why it is important for all Americans to be together and how the flying of the flag would accomplish that. She could say that it would honor American dead, and then she could explain why honoring American dead is more important than honoring Iraqi dead or the dead of other nationalities. If she believes that 9/11 was "this country's worst tragedy," she could explain why she believes that it was worse than the many other tragedies in which a great many more Americans lost their lives (e.g., the great influenza pandemic of 1918). This analytical approach doesn't need to exclude visceral feelings, but it offers more meat for discussion.
By the way, have you seen the lines of American flags flying at the intersection of Hwy 12 and Hwy 116 in downtown Sebastopol? Those flags are accompanied by signs indicating what the flag-flyers consider to be patriotic ("bring the troops home now"). Nobody in this thread has objected to the Sebastopol flags. Why is that?
I close with a favorite quote from Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense" during the Revolutionary War: "It is the duty of the patriot to protect the people against the government."
--"Willie Lumplump"
ThePhiant
09-12-2007, 09:36 AM
so how did it go???
I decided to fly the Chinese Flag because I couldn't find a flag that wasn't made in china
Lorrie
09-12-2007, 09:53 AM
Hello~ Didn't you read all the flag bashing posts? Probably no one but Tars and I did it.
so how did it go???
I decided to fly the Chinese Flag because I couldn't find a flag that wasn't made in china
Lorrie
09-12-2007, 10:09 AM
AW JUST FORGET IT! It was originally a forward from my uncle. Had I known how many anti flag/anti United States of America people were out there I never would have posted it on here.
Patriotism is USA land lovers and the flag represents the land to me. The people are to blame not the country.
Patriotism..from: "patre", latin for "father" as in "fatherland"..
I am sure this what I wrote is going to cause more havoc amongst you people.
I dont' want to fight.
Just forget I said anything. Hope you all had fun!
Willie Lumplump
09-12-2007, 12:39 PM
Since it appears that we've come to the end of this discussion, I'd like to summarize what I've understood of Lorrie's position:
1. Patriotism is good.
2. Patriotism consists of loving one's country.
3. "Country" is defined as "the land" rather than the people.
4. The exact meaning of "the land" is left unstated.
5. Nevertheless, anyone who disagrees with the foregoing points is unamerican.
I close with an extension of Lorrie's argument:
6. People who are unamerican are much more likely to cooperate with terrorists.
7. Increasingly, people who are suspected of cooperating with terrorists are locked up without trial.
8. By Lorrie's definition, I am unamerican.
9. Therefore, I face an increasing risk of being locked up.
This is not just wordplay. I'm old enough to remember Joe McCarthy and the lives he and his followers destroyed. I remember the House Unamerican Activities Committee and the lives and careers that it ruined. And I'm certainly old enough to remember G. Dubbya and his efforts to bring us a new Fascist Age. Look at the mass flying of US flags, and then look at old newsreels of the giant Nazi assemblies at Nurenburg. Then look at who we have in the Whitehouse. It's very, very scary. And those who are unafraid are those whom we should fear the most.
--"Willie"
AW JUST FORGET IT! It was originally a forward from my uncle. Had I known how many anti flag/anti United States of America people were out there I never would have posted it on here.
Patriotism is USA land lovers and the flag represents the land to me. The people are to blame not the country.
Patriotism..from: "patre", latin for "father" as in "fatherland"..
I am sure this what I wrote is going to cause more havoc amongst you people.
I dont' want to fight.
Just forget I said anything. Hope you all had fun!
Lorrie
09-12-2007, 01:16 PM
Why did you do that? I said Forget it. I DID NOT HAVE AN ARGUEMENT I THOUGHT I WAS DOING SOMETHING NICE.
And you all turned it around and brought up a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with the simplicity of the request. Because of THE FLAG. It's true I am a product of my upbringing, which wasn't political or involved.
I am sorry to you all, I meant nothing, but for to remember the 3000+ people that died in the 9/11/01 attacks on the world trade center. Simple as that.
I did not mean for all you people to get exited about it and get in an uproar. Not my intention to determine who was an American and who was facist or whatever.
I was born in America I am an american. I am nobody.
Are you happy? I feel awful.
Please drop it.
Since it appears that we've come to the end of this discussion, I'd like to summarize what I've understood of Lorrie's position:...
nurturetruth
09-12-2007, 03:45 PM
I must say, I have been not been as active with this little on line community for quite awhile and just now "catching up".
This particular thread is a REALLY good topic to discuss as it raises alot of feelings and questions regarding patriotism and flag waving.
I feel grateful Lorrie, that you introduced the subject matter . Someone had to! And it generated an array of awesome responses/discussion!!
I see no arguing going on in this thread at all. Just a group of educated beings expressing their opinions and insights.
And I don't see how such a subject matter can just be brought up and then "forgotten and dropped".
Lorrie, you must have known when you posted the thread that you would get feedback from this diverse conscious community!!
Yesterday, I was driving downtown Sebastopol and saw all those stripped flags that were, "made in China" blowing in the breeze.
I actually called up a friend to ask if it was some sort of holiday that I was unaware of. My friend reminded me it was the anniversary of September 11th. My first response was a sarcastic one...which was.. " Why don't people get off work in memory of this day? Everyone gets off for silly Columbus day, and of course Veterans and Memorial day. So why not on Sept 11th?"
Then I thought.. if they did make Sept 11th a day where people could get off work and take a moment to reflect..what would they call this day? "Terrorist day?"
Ok . Just a little sarcasm here.
I would be very interested to know ..how many actually consider themselves to be patriotic?
Yes, that word.. "Patriotism" is a big word and does mean "father" or "fatherland". Motherland is Mother Earth. Gaia. Whereas, "Father land" for me..describes a land or a nation that is separate from the WHOLE...and is a government primarily ran or dictated by masculine energy rather than the people of the country or consensus.
I am neither a patriot or an anti-patriot. I am just simply UN-patriotic.
I consider myself a World Citizen . And although I do not agree , TRUST or support the recent and current UN, I do appreciate the intent of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
AND, I DO appreciate and honor ALL comments on this thread! AWESOME STUFF!
** I especially enjoyed reading the below statements...along with CLANCY's quotes, Larissads contributions, Neil Dunaetz , MIXMASTER's, Radio4progressives AND the infamous DIXONS insightfulness!! **
:thumbsup:
******************************
Mad Miles stated: (with which I fully AGREE!! its excellant to be educated on what is "violation of the flag code"! Thank you for being educated!)
"So, almost all of the patriotic flag flying we saw after 911 and possibly tomorrow, is, in actuality, disrespectful of the symbol itself. In fact most of the institutional flag displays at schools and other public buildings are in violation of the flag code and are thereby disrespectful"
________________________
Willie Lumplump wrote: ( WHAT does being a "Patriot" mean to you?!)
"I close with a favorite quote from Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense" during the Revolutionary War: "It is the duty of the patriot to protect the people against the government."
______________________
MixMaster wrote: (interesting idea. but if the flag was made in china...would we then also be supporting child slavery or injust working conditions?)
" Here's an idea.. fly the flag at half mast, to honor the million or so who have died on Bushs watch.."
________________________
*** THIS IS BEAUTIFUL!! THANK YOU FOR SHARING LAURIE! ***
"I pledge allegiance to the earth and to the flora, fauna and human life that it supports. One planet indivisible, with safe air, water & soil, economic justice, equal rights and peace for all." ~~ LaurieSequania
__________________________
Holistic Kids wrote: (YES YES YES YES! GREAT statement and QUESTIONS! thank you !!)
"So let’s envision what we want it to be, every detail, and begin to think about it and feel it. Not just what we want to happen right now with the current administration, but what do we want our nation and planet to look and feel like in the future? What do we want our government to be? Do we even want a government? What does it all look like? "
:heart:
Willie Lumplump
09-12-2007, 04:14 PM
Lorrie, If you lash out at people calling them "unamerican," I don't think you can reasonably expect much sympathy for your hurt feelings.
Here are a couple more thoughts: To honor the dead of 9/11 while neglecting the sick and wounded strikes me as either insensitive or outright cynical. Hundreds of policemen and firefighters sacrificed their mental and/or physical health in rescuing their fellow Americans. All these people deserve free health care for the rest of their lives. After they made their great sacrifice, the Bush administration turned its back on them because they were of no further use.
Likewise, it is cynical to honor Americans killed in Iraq while neglecting the sick and wounded. As many as one-third of the veterans returning from Iraq have post-traumatic stress disorder. Where is the President? Why were no plans made even before the war to care for these fine men and women? Bush and his whole administration use people up and cast them aside.
And Lorrie, you think you feel bad? Most of the people responding to you feel bad EVERY DAY because we live every day with the knowledge of what is being done in our name. You feel bad? Well, welcome to the club.
--"Willie"
ThePhiant
09-12-2007, 04:32 PM
well, it looks like we got ourselves a new TROLL
WHO CAN"T READ EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she said she was politically UNAWARE
UNAWARE is not the same as CYNICAL
but you are CYNICAL and UNCARING
how about that for being sooooooooooo rational
Lorrie, If you lash out at people calling them "unamerican," I don't think you can reasonably expect much sympathy for your hurt feelings.
Here are a couple more thoughts: To honor the dead of 9/11 while neglecting the sick and wounded strikes me as either insensitive or outright cynical. Hundreds of policemen and firefighters sacrificed their mental and/or physical health in rescuing their fellow Americans. All these people deserve free health care for the rest of their lives. After they made their great sacrifice, the Bush administration turned its back on them because they were of no further use.
Likewise, it is cynical to honor Americans killed in Iraq while neglecting the sick and wounded. As many as one-third of the veterans returning from Iraq have post-traumatic stress disorder. Where is the President? Why were no plans made even before the war to care for these fine men and women? Bush and his whole administration use people up and cast them aside.
And Lorrie, you think you feel bad? Most of the people responding to you feel bad EVERY DAY because we live every day with the knowledge of what is being done in our name. You feel bad? Well, welcome to the club.
--"Willie"
Barry
09-12-2007, 04:38 PM
This discussion can continue but please respect Lorrie's request to leave her out of it. She was just passing along an email. You can address the question of flying the flag, but please leave her out of it.
Lorrie, If you lash out at people calling them "unamerican," I don't think you can reasonably expect much sympathy for your hurt feelings....
Willie Lumplump
09-12-2007, 08:37 PM
well, it looks like we got ourselves a new TROLL
WHO CAN"T READ EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she said she was politically UNAWARE
UNAWARE is not the same as CYNICAL
but you are CYNICAL and UNCARING
how about that for being sooooooooooo rational
Phiant,
If you're referring to me, I'd be interested to know what you mean by "can't read." And why "either"? Are there two of us trolls who can't read? And what is it that we're not reading?
I'd like to apologize publically to L----- (although that is difficult to do without using her name). I want to be tough when that's appropriate, but I don't want to be uncaring.
--"Willie"
ThePhiant
09-12-2007, 09:50 PM
well, well the professor wants to quibble like a querulous querist ?
yes, I am referring to YOU!
can't read?
yes, Lorrie made her intentions clear for posting
none of which you seem to have grasped
Are there two of us trolls who can't read?
yes, you and your buddie Dixon seem to have a hard time understanding what people are saying.
And what is it that we're not reading?
you aren't able to distinguish what people write and what you think people write. (Dixie is usually more careful)
none of your comments had anything to do with what Lorrie wrote.
when she said NO, leave me out of this, you kept going
Is that what you call rational???
Phiant,
If you're referring to me, I'd be interested to know what you mean by "can't read." And why "either"? Are there two of us trolls who can't read? And what is it that we're not reading?
I'd like to apologize publically to L----- (although that is difficult to do without using her name). I want to be tough when that's appropriate, but I don't want to be uncaring.
--"Willie"
Willie Lumplump
09-12-2007, 10:08 PM
well, well the professor wants to quibble like a querulous querist ?
yes, I am referring to YOU!
can't read?
yes, Lorrie made her intentions clear for posting
none of which you seem to have grasped
Are there two of us trolls who can't read?
yes, you and your buddie Dixon seem to have a hard time understanding what people are saying.
And what is it that we're not reading?
you aren't able to distinguish what people write and what you think people write. (Dixie is usually more careful)
none of your comments had anything to do with what Lorrie wrote.
when she said NO, leave me out of this, you kept going
Is that what you call rational???
Phiant:
I accept your criticism, and I'll take it to heart.
--"Willie"
Neshamah
09-19-2007, 04:35 PM
(1) Most people who live in the United States (like most people in the world) are good people who want to do what is best for themselves, their families, and the world at large. They simply do not know what our government does when it knows it can get away with it. To most people in the United States, the flag represents life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not the flag's fault that the U.S. has fallen far short of those ideals. To most people, attacking the symbol is the same as attacking those ideals, and almost no one will listen to you if you do that.
Instead of attacking symbols, or being offended by symbols, focus on the issues. Oppose what the U.S. does because it goes against the flag, and a lot more people will pay attention.
(2) The U.S. was for the most part started by people with good intentions. It started imperfectly and was perhaps only a marginal improvement over the British Empire, but today as then, most of us mean well.
If the U.S. has produced a greater quantity of evil than any other human body in history, it is only because it has the greatest power of any human body in history. There is a worldwide movement to concentrate more power in the United Nations. The United Nations is supported by well meaning people, but once power is given, it's nearly impossible to take back. Sooner or later, someone will come along who will abuse that power. Bush is not the first but only the most dramatic example of that abuse in U.S. history.