click it or ticket [Archive]

kewl

06-02-2007, 02:53 PM

after all these years I finally got a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.
now I am a staunch disbeliever in anything restraining movements, but can see the usefulness of belts every now and again.
what bothers me, is the misinformation out there and the fact that cops have become TAX collectors instead of protectors of all that is good.
had the cop asked nicely, to put my seatbelt on, I would have done so and even kept it on too. because after all I would have given him my word of honor, but as it happened this time, I took it off as soon as he was out of sight after all I PAID for the right not to wear a seatbelt!

read the following and let me know what you think!

The U.S. Department of Transportation's National Highway Transportation Safety Administration only estimates the number of lives saved every year by motorists wearing seat belts and motorcyclists wearing helmets. Statistics provide some startling facts:
According to the California Highway Patrol's most available data, 2001, there were 2,764 fatal automobile accidents that year. Those killed wearing seat belts numbered 1,496. The number killed not wearing a seat belt: 1,268. Of the 266,777 injury accidents that same year, the number injured wearing a seat belt: 237, 028. Those injured not wearing a seat belt: 29,749.

In the motorcycle category, there were 295 fatalities the same year. Number of motorcycle operators killed wearing a helmet: 254. Number killed not wearing a helmet: 41. Injury accidents for motorcycles numbered 8,405. Those injured wearing a helmet: 7,085. Injured not wearing a helmet: 1,320.

smithers

06-02-2007, 04:14 PM

I think reading a "quote" without citation and forming an opinion is no better than forming an opinion based upon gossip.

after all these years I finally got a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.
now I am a staunch disbeliever in anything restraining movements, but can see the usefulness of belts every now and again.
what bothers me, is the misinformation out there and the fact that cops have become TAX collectors instead of protectors of all that is good.
had the cop asked nicely, to put my seatbelt on, I would have done so and even kept it on too. because after all I would have given him my word of honor, but as it happened this time, I took it off as soon as he was out of sight after all I PAID for the right not to wear a seatbelt!

read the following and let me know what you think!

The U.S. Department of Transportation's National Highway Transportation Safety Administration only estimates the number of lives saved every year by motorists wearing seat belts and motorcyclists wearing helmets. Statistics provide some startling facts:
According to the California Highway Patrol's most available data, 2001, there were 2,764 fatal automobile accidents that year. Those killed wearing seat belts numbered 1,496. The number killed not wearing a seat belt: 1,268. Of the 266,777 injury accidents that same year, the number injured wearing a seat belt: 237, 028. Those injured not wearing a seat belt: 29,749.

In the motorcycle category, there were 295 fatalities the same year. Number of motorcycle operators killed wearing a helmet: 254. Number killed not wearing a helmet: 41. Injury accidents for motorcycles numbered 8,405. Those injured wearing a helmet: 7,085. Injured not wearing a helmet: 1,320.

Debujo

06-02-2007, 06:52 PM

You did pay for that right, but we all pay for the injuries you sustain.

mykil

06-02-2007, 08:54 PM

I hate wearing my seat belt, but after about ten tickets and the last one costing me i think $265, I have become accustom top it.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I did read a few years back, [well a while] when the seat belt law came into affect, along with the helmet law, around the same time, that the amount of blood on hand was dangerously low due to not being taken from drivers that had signed the donor cards. I guess they were taking a lot from those particular drivers from seat belts and helmet laws!!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I also did notice that once Arnold became our fearless leader, I really did have to start wearing my seat belt, all CHP’s became republican tax collectors really fast, and it hasn’t change since!!! :hmmm:

Chris Murray

06-02-2007, 11:10 PM

I think Darwin figured this out a while ago, but as another poster pointed out, we bear the cost of your injuries unless you have medical insurance. Government, as usual, finds it much easier to protect us from ourselves rather than from each other.
Personally I don't think the government should be wasting tax dollars and cops' time trying to force stupid people to wear seatbelts.
Ditto for motorcyclists and helmets - been there, loved the wind in my hair on one or two rare occasions, but I wore a helmet to protect myself, there was no legal requirement to wear one.

Partial solution - no ticket if you can prove full medical coverage.

after all these years I finally got a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.
now I am a staunch disbeliever in anything restraining movements, but can see the usefulness of belts every now and again.
what bothers me, is the misinformation out there and the fact that cops have become TAX collectors instead of protectors of all that is good.
had the cop asked nicely, to put my seatbelt on, I would have done so and even kept it on too. because after all I would have given him my word of honor, but as it happened this time, I took it off as soon as he was out of sight after all I PAID for the right not to wear a seatbelt!

read the following and let me know what you think!

The U.S. Department of Transportation's National Highway Transportation Safety Administration only estimates the number of lives saved every year by motorists wearing seat belts and motorcyclists wearing helmets. Statistics provide some startling facts:
According to the California Highway Patrol's most available data, 2001, there were 2,764 fatal automobile accidents that year. Those killed wearing seat belts numbered 1,496. The number killed not wearing a seat belt: 1,268. Of the 266,777 injury accidents that same year, the number injured wearing a seat belt: 237, 028. Those injured not wearing a seat belt: 29,749.

In the motorcycle category, there were 295 fatalities the same year. Number of motorcycle operators killed wearing a helmet: 254. Number killed not wearing a helmet: 41. Injury accidents for motorcycles numbered 8,405. Those injured wearing a helmet: 7,085. Injured not wearing a helmet: 1,320.

Dixon

06-03-2007, 01:26 AM

Hey, Kewl--

If you think the statistics you quote establish that seatbelts don't increase safety, think again. Those statistics tell us NOTHING about the relative safety of wearing or not wearing seatbelts; all they prove is that it's possible to get injured or die while wearing setbelts, a fact which nobody denies. The question is: Do seatbelts decrease our chance of injury/death? To answer that, we'd need, in addition to the figures you quote, figures on what percentage of people wear their seatbelts. With those figures along with the ones you quote, we'd be able to calculate the chances of injury/death for seatbelted and non-seatbelted people and make a meaningful comparison. The figures you quote, by themselves, are irrelevant because they can't possibly tell us if seatbelts are safer.

The research has been done (thanks to Ralph Nader among others) and, along with crash-dummy tests, etc., has shown that seatbelted people are less likely to be injured/killed. As one of the taxpayers who would presumably be footing the huge medical bill if you got horribly injured, I call upon you to behave more responsibly by getting in the habit of buckling up. If you refuse to do so, I hope you get ticketed again and again until you change your ways.

Blessings!

Dixon

after all these years I finally got a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.
now I am a staunch disbeliever in anything restraining movements, but can see the usefulness of belts every now and again.
what bothers me, is the misinformation out there and the fact that cops have become TAX collectors instead of protectors of all that is good.
had the cop asked nicely, to put my seatbelt on, I would have done so and even kept it on too. because after all I would have given him my word of honor, but as it happened this time, I took it off as soon as he was out of sight after all I PAID for the right not to wear a seatbelt!

read the following and let me know what you think!

The U.S. Department of Transportation's National Highway Transportation Safety Administration only estimates the number of lives saved every year by motorists wearing seat belts and motorcyclists wearing helmets. Statistics provide some startling facts:
According to the California Highway Patrol's most available data, 2001, there were 2,764 fatal automobile accidents that year. Those killed wearing seat belts numbered 1,496. The number killed not wearing a seat belt: 1,268. Of the 266,777 injury accidents that same year, the number injured wearing a seat belt: 237, 028. Those injured not wearing a seat belt: 29,749.

In the motorcycle category, there were 295 fatalities the same year. Number of motorcycle operators killed wearing a helmet: 254. Number killed not wearing a helmet: 41. Injury accidents for motorcycles numbered 8,405. Those injured wearing a helmet: 7,085. Injured not wearing a helmet: 1,320.

kewl

06-03-2007, 08:02 AM

I think reading a "quote" without citation and forming an opinion is no better than forming an opinion based upon gossip.

I googled seatbelts+accidents and this is what came up
the numbers come from the CHP as is stated if you have anything to dispute it, please let us all know

kewl

06-03-2007, 08:11 AM

You did pay for that right, but we all pay for the injuries you sustain.

I have medical insurance, and unless you are offering to pay for it, it doesn't cost you a penny.

now you DO pay for people who wear seatbelts but don't have insurance or medical coverage and that includes teenagers, elderly, illegals, drunks, druggies and foreigners.

kewl

06-03-2007, 08:13 AM

I don't know how much the ticket is going to be, the cop wouldn't tell me
but $265 seems excessive to me

I hate wearing my seat belt, but after about ten tickets and the last one costing me i think $265, I have become accustom top it.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I did read a few years back, [well a while] when the seat belt law came into affect, along with the helmet law, around the same time, that the amount of blood on hand was dangerously low due to not being taken from drivers that had signed the donor cards. I guess they were taking a lot from those particular drivers from seat belts and helmet laws!!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I also did notice that once Arnold became our fearless leader, I really did have to start wearing my seat belt, all CHP’s became republican tax collectors really fast, and it hasn’t change since!!! :hmmm:

kewl

06-03-2007, 08:22 AM

Dixon, I agree that the statistics don't prove anything, one way or the other, but that was exactly my point!
like I said before you people are mixing up 2 different issues
no insurance versus no seat belt

"now you DO pay for people who wear seatbelts but don't have insurance or medical coverage and that includes teenagers, elderly, illegals, drunks, druggies and foreigners."

you call upon me to buckle up, but not to drive safe?
are people with seatbelts better drivers?
can you tell what the likely hood is that I get in a accident tomorow and that those seatbelts will protect me?
can you guaranty that I will ever be in an accident?

Hey, Kewl--

If you think the statistics you quote establish that seatbelts don't increase safety, think again. Those statistics tell us NOTHING about the relative safety of wearing or not wearing seatbelts; all they prove is that it's possible to get injured or die while wearing setbelts, a fact which nobody denies. The question is: Do seatbelts decrease our chance of injury/death? To answer that, we'd need, in addition to the figures you quote, figures on what percentage of people wear their seatbelts. With those figures along with the ones you quote, we'd be able to calculate the chances of injury/death for seatbelted and non-seatbelted people and make a meaningful comparison. The figures you quote, by themselves, are irrelevant because they can't possibly tell us if seatbelts are safer.

The research has been done (thanks to Ralph Nader among others) and, along with crash-dummy tests, etc., has shown that seatbelted people are less likely to be injured/killed. As one of the taxpayers who would presumably be footing the huge medical bill if you got horribly injured, I call upon you to behave more responsibly by getting in the habit of buckling up. If you refuse to do so, I hope you get ticketed again and again until you change your ways.

Blessings!

Dixon

smithers

06-03-2007, 08:49 AM

I wasn't disputing what you said. I was refusing to state an opinion because you did not provide a link to your source.

I googled seatbelts+accidents and this is what came up
the numbers come from the CHP as is stated if you have anything to dispute it, please let us all know

"Mad" Miles

06-03-2007, 10:32 AM

Here's my take Girls and Boys,

In my late teens and into my early twenties, I didn't always wear my seatbelt, and this was in the days before the mandatory shoulder strap. My thought was, "Better to be dead than a paraplegic, or gruesomely scarred. Live Fast, Die Young and Leave A Beautiful Corpse!"

For those of you who've read my output since last fall, you know from my "Driving Peeves" piece that I learned to drive in Northern Alabama from friends inspired by Burt Reynolds's Moonshine Runner movies ("Gator", etc.) and that I drove with "alacrity" for many, many years.

Well, the problem with speeding, aside from the danger to oneself and others (I always tried to minimize the danger to others and only accept risk for myself) is that one racks up a bunch of speeding tickets. This gets expensive (fines and insurance) and eventually, unless your financial means are substantial, unlike mine, you see the light and give it up. Or at least you moderate it more, having learned that you don't have anything to prove and why not take it easy.

Another aspect of getting speeding tickets is that you periodically get to go to Traffic School. This in the days before it could be done online.

One statistic, that sank in after a while, was: Most traffic accidents happen at a speed under 30 miles per hour and within a five mile radius of home.

(I suck at remembering factual details, like statistics, so this is my paraphrase of the info. Please don't ask me for a source. It would be, "Several Traffic School instructors in Orange County, CA, circa 1976-1984.")

THIRTY Miles Per Hour or less.

And my several fender benders over the last thirty-four years, both my fault and the fault of others, bear this out. They all happened at low speeds, with one exception when a drunk woman plowed into the back of my car while I was stopped at a light.

So really, the choice between belt and shoulder strap, and none, is not Death vs. Paraplegia. It's more likely: Walking away unscathed vs. Painful reconstructive face surgery from hitting the windshield with my beautiful mug!

That was an easy choice to make.

I Click It.

The overbearing imposition of State Power by an unfeeling and unthinking bureaucratic system of control and surveillance, which I generally am not too thrilled with, is OK by me in this instance.

Yeah, seat belts and shoulder straps restrict my freedom of movement while driving. So do head rests. (Heard of whiplash spinal injuries?) So do: side panels, roof construction with internal struts in case of a roll, bumpers when parking.

But they've all been proven useful as safety devices in crash studies. And I've involuntarily personally tested all of them but the roll bar! Many were resisted by the car manufacturers as added frivolous expense.

So you have to ask yourself. Do you feel Lucky? So do you Punk?!

(Hah, hah, couldn't resist!)

Good Luck Seat Belt Anars in your fight against The Man, I pick and choose my fights, always have, and in this case it just doesn't seem productive, plus it goes against my perceived, immediate self interest.

Happy Motoring!

"Mad" Miles

:giwhchr: :redcar: :burngrnbounce: :copcar: :fist:

mykil

06-03-2007, 01:02 PM

Hey; actually the first seat beat ticket is 25 that they tell you about then another 20 for some stupid bookkeepers. Then if your lucky the second and so on are still that amount, til one day some stupid clerk looks up your mane and sees you have had more than one and ands a huge friggin bill so you don’t do it any more. I have a friend that is wallpapering his bedroom with them, he makes allot more money than I do and can afford it, and I really think he has over thirty thus far! I think they sit and wait for him to drive out of his drive. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I do wear one now, you do get used to the restrainment, being free is alwayz a good feeling though! Getting out of them is pretty though these dayz; the last one I did get out of I passed the guy on river road doing around seventy, a little faster than I should have been going. About three minutes latter I saw him coming up on me extremely fast, I asked him how fast he was going to caught up with me to protect me from my own stupidity? He would not tell me. I asked him how he could justify going will over a hundred miles an hour, how driving like that to give me a seat belt ticket was protecting and serving the public the was babbling on about. “I am only here to protect you and the others on the road way sir”! Was really going about 120 protecting me or anyone else on the road way what so ever? He walked away and got in his car a sped away! I didn’t get his name or his badge, for once in my life I really felt like I needed to complain. So with that in mind, wearing your seat belt does protect others, from the stupidity on the CHP and any other law enforcement that wants to go really really fast just to make sure you are on the right track with the legal system at anyone’s cost!:2cents: <o:p></o:p>

kewl

06-03-2007, 01:18 PM

what I got out of your writing, is that you were hell on wheels.
In my twenty+ years of driving, I have never gotten a ticket for speeding, never driven reckless, never driven while intoxicated, and never gotten into an accident.

the alarmist tone that I detect in all of the responses is that it is only a matter of time before I or anybody else gets into a car accident.
it appears that everybody here agrees that if you drive a car, you WILL get into an accident with disastrous results, especially if you don't wear seat belts.

I for once respectfully disagree,
even though I sometimes wear seatbelts, sometimes I don't
sometimes i will walk on wet and slippery sidewalks, sometimes I will climb ladders, sometimes i use very sharp knives, sometimes I will use a chainsaw and so on and on.
wearing seat belts will only protect you from getting an occasional ticket.
and for those disbelievers, seat belts have also caused the death of people, while their passengers escaped without a scratch after being thrown out of the car rather than being trapped

Here's my take Girls and Boys,

In my late teens and into my early twenties, I didn't always wear my seatbelt, and this was in the days before the mandatory shoulder strap. My thought was, "Better to be dead than a paraplegic, or gruesomely scarred. Live Fast, Die Young and Leave A Beautiful Corpse!" ...

Dixon

06-03-2007, 02:45 PM

I have medical insurance, and unless you are offering to pay for it, it doesn't cost you a penny.

Kewl, it does cost the insurance ratepayers. There's no honest way around this: if you drive irresponsibly (which includes driving without a seatbelt), you increase the chance that someone else, whether taxpayers or insurance ratepayers, will pay the price for your irresponsibility.

now you DO pay for people who wear seatbelts but don't have insurance or medical coverage and that includes teenagers, elderly, illegals, drunks, druggies and foreigners.

That's right, and that means that they should all wear their seatbelts in order to decrease the chance that we'll have to pay, right, Kewl?

Dixon

kewl

06-03-2007, 07:31 PM

alanora

06-03-2007, 07:38 PM

I have been rear ended at 50mph while waiting for traffic to finish in order to turn onto the summer bridge in Guerneville. I felt the belt was primarily what held me in the seat, even when the seat broke. I did have some very sore ribs for a time. I am a habitual seat belt wearer and would like to comment that as such it requires no thought. Once recently, after dealing with electric gates and such, I had been in and out many times and forgotten to buckle-up. It felt really strange tho and I did not get very far til the realization hit. It may be the " buckleup for safety" little jingle that was around when I was a child in nyc. Perhaps it was working as an rn in an er for a time, or unconcious folks in intensive care and their weeping relatives?! During that time I also began to see some police as almost human despite earlier training, tho I still sort of freeze when chp appears in my rear-view. Any one could tell you that is not the best move, but I digress. Was any one else there back then who remembers the litter campaign with "Phil De Basket" around the same time? We used to stand in the wheel wells behind the front seat. Here's imagining that Mykil is not on the road at the same time that I am and that someone else taught his children to drive.

Dixon

06-03-2007, 08:40 PM

dixon, you seem to have a little disconnect,
even if all the teenagers, elderly, illegals, drunks, druggies and foreigners drive with their seat belts on, it doesn't make one iota of a difference for the rest of us if they are irresponsible drivers!
if they don't have insurance but their seatbelt on, it is still gonna cost you, but not the other way around.

Kewl, it has been suggested to me that you are a troll, and indeed you're smelling more and more like one. It's hard to imagine that you could be so stupid or so confused that your consistently obfuscatory responses could be made honestly in good faith. Again and again you muddy the waters by ignoring or not "getting" perfectly clear and reasonable arguments, focusing on irrelevancies, and inferring ridiculous implications in others' words when in fact those implications are not there. Thus, I will no longer waste my time giving you your sick thrills by trying to reason with you.

My advice to everyone regarding this "Kewl" person: Please don't feed the troll!

Kewl, if you would like us to think you're arguing honestly in good faith, you can start by stepping out from behind your screen of anonymity and letting us all know who you really are.

Dixon

kewl

06-03-2007, 09:56 PM

Dixon

I am not quite sure what's getting you so upset, nor do I know what "ridiculous implications" you are referring to.
but from what I have been told, you have a history of trying to intimidate people with a barrage of words.
since you are asking for some clarity, all I have said is that there is no evidence that wearing a seatbelt makes the roads safer, produces less fatalities, or less injuries
yes, it prevents some injuries under certain circumstances, but it also aggravates some under different circumstances.
if you have some information to dispute this, let us hear it
otherwise stop your rehashing of CHP propaganda, that has no basis in facts!

peace brother
Kewl

Kewl, it has been suggested to me that you are a troll, and indeed you're smelling more and more like one. It's hard to imagine that you could be so stupid or so confused that your consistently obfuscatory responses could be made honestly in good faith. Again and again you muddy the waters by ignoring or not "getting" perfectly clear and reasonable arguments, focusing on irrelevancies, and inferring ridiculous implications in others' words when in fact those implications are not there. Thus, I will no longer waste my time giving you your sick thrills by trying to reason with you.

My advice to everyone regarding this "Kewl" person: Please don't feed the troll!

Kewl, if you would like us to think you're arguing honestly in good faith, you can start by stepping out from behind your screen of anonymity and letting us all know who you really are.

Dixon

mykil

06-04-2007, 08:47 AM

LMAO!! Tacitus You are way too funny, first of all he was the one going really about 120 to catch up with me just to give me a stupid seat belt ticket, don’t you think that is a little bit beyond public safety? Way irresponsible beyond my belief, seventy is the norm on that stretch of road going toward Rosa from Forestville. Second, I really have way too many dates at this moment in time, but I can alwayz use one more, if you wanna wait in line BABY!!!:wink: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Mykil, a devil of a really cute guy, writes: "the last one I did get out of I passed the guy on river road doing around seventy, a little faster than I should have been going."

You and your ilk are the reason River Road is called Blood Alley. Way too many people and animals have been killed by speeders like yourself on this road. And you had the nerve to complain about the CHP or sheriff?! I'm totally blown away by your insensitivity to others. No wonder you don't get dates.

Please, Mykil. Buck up, buckle up and drive carefully. Before you kill someone or yourself.

Dian

mykil

06-04-2007, 09:07 AM

BTW; unlike most of you here, I myself have NEVER had a speeding ticket or a moving violation. I have had about thirty or forty ticket for seat belts or registration. Also I have never been in an accident, on the roadway that is. I have totaled a few jeeps off-roading. I would be interested how many can say this. Please post.:hmmm: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

ThePhiant

06-04-2007, 11:42 AM

Yeah Kewl, stop messing with our Deities!
if you don't like to be restrained, by anything
how do you think it feels to walk around with an IV in your arm?
if you pull it out, they might strap you to the bed!

Kewl, it has been suggested to me that you are a troll, and indeed you're smelling more and more like one. It's hard to imagine that you could be so stupid or so confused that your consistently obfuscatory responses could be made honestly in good faith. Again and again you muddy the waters by ignoring or not "getting" perfectly clear and reasonable arguments, focusing on irrelevancies, and inferring ridiculous implications in others' words when in fact those implications are not there. Thus, I will no longer waste my time giving you your sick thrills by trying to reason with you.

My advice to everyone regarding this "Kewl" person: Please don't feed the troll!

Kewl, if you would like us to think you're arguing honestly in good faith, you can start by stepping out from behind your screen of anonymity and letting us all know who you really are.

Dixon

Carl

06-04-2007, 01:29 PM

[QUOTE=kewl;30957]after all these years I finally got a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt.
now I am a staunch disbeliever in anything restraining movements, but can see the usefulness of belts every now and again.
what bothers me, is the misinformation out there and the fact that cops have become TAX collectors instead of protectors of all that is good.
had the cop asked nicely, to put my seatbelt on, I would have done so and even kept it on too. because after all I would have given him my word of honor, but as it happened this time, I took it off as soon as he was out of sight after all I PAID for the right not to wear a seatbelt!

Kewl,
I agree that the new seat belt law as it is, is yet another way for the "central authority" to have access to control over the common person, and to have an excuse for stopping ANYONE at anytime. Nevertheless, wearing a seatbelt is so obviously important, there can be no argument against it. Except, on buses, hmmm, children on buses, why don't they have to wear belts? Are those special brakes that good? Well, maybe there can be an argument against the necessity of seatbelts.

So your point is, the police should only threaten people with a ticket, and not give them a citation, and in this manner get them to promise to obey the law. Then we can trust the citizen's word of honor to do something they are already supposed to be doing. Your suggestion flies in the face of reason. I agree that the presence of police does discourage people from violating some laws, and there should be more highway patrol, not less. But other violations are way more important to me than the seatbelt crime, as it is a non-invasive thing. Egregious examples are running red lights, refusing to stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, cutting other drivers off, all of which I witness every time I drive from Santa Rosa to Sebastopol. More police, not more extreme fines, is the way to cure it. But the cost is prohibitive, that money is going to more important places... ummm, like where? Why do the police have to hold fundraisers to take care of their own? Where is our money going? To me, that is a better question. Why do we not have a fully-respected professional police and peace-keeping force?

Not to insult you, Kewl, but I think I have raised other questions that are far more important than your personal right to drive without a seatbelt on.

kewl

06-04-2007, 02:05 PM

Carl,

yeah you raise some interesting points,(but claiming that one is more important than another isn't one of them, LOL)
I had forgotten about the schoolbusses!
why don't we hear from somebody up in arms that we allow kids to be transported without restraints, can you imagine a 7 year old kid sliding from the back of the bus al the way to the front smack-bam against the windshield after an emrgency stop going downhill!!!
my argument was more that if cops would talk to people, they would get more respect and probably better results. money is just an impersonal and unsatisfying transaction.

this is my all time, blowsmymind, winner.
I am going 70 MPH in the slow lane, and I am being passed on the right!!

Kewl

Kewl,
I agree that the new seat belt law as it is, is yet another way for the "central authority" to have access to control over the common person, and to have an excuse for stopping ANYONE at anytime. Nevertheless, wearing a seatbelt is so obviously important, there can be no argument against it. Except, on buses, hmmm, children on buses, why don't they have to wear belts? Are those special brakes that good? Well, maybe there can be an argument against the necessity of seatbelts.

So your point is, the police should only threaten people with a ticket, and not give them a citation, and in this manner get them to promise to obey the law. Then we can trust the citizen's word of honor to do something they are already supposed to be doing. Your suggestion flies in the face of reason. I agree that the presence of police does discourage people from violating some laws, and there should be more highway patrol, not less. But other violations are way more important to me than the seatbelt crime, as it is a non-invasive thing. Egregious examples are running red lights, refusing to stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, cutting other drivers off, all of which I witness every time I drive from Santa Rosa to Sebastopol. More police, not more extreme fines, is the way to cure it. But the cost is prohibitive, that money is going to more important places... ummm, like where? Why do the police have to hold fundraisers to take care of their own? Where is our money going? To me, that is a better question. Why do we not have a fully-respected professional police and peace-keeping force?

Not to insult you, Kewl, but I think I have raised other questions that are far more important than your personal right to drive without a seatbelt on.[/quote]

kewl

06-04-2007, 02:12 PM

Mykil

did you ask that cop if he was wearing his seatbelt?
I think they are exempt because they are above the law.

Kewl

Hey; actually the first seat beat ticket is 25 that they tell you about then another 20 for some stupid bookkeepers. Then if your lucky the second and so on are still that amount, til one day some stupid clerk looks up your mane and sees you have had more than one and ands a huge friggin bill so you don’t do it any more. I have a friend that is wallpapering his bedroom with them, he makes allot more money than I do and can afford it, and I really think he has over thirty thus far! I think they sit and wait for him to drive out of his drive. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I do wear one now, you do get used to the restrainment, being free is alwayz a good feeling though! Getting out of them is pretty though these dayz; the last one I did get out of I passed the guy on river road doing around seventy, a little faster than I should have been going. About three minutes latter I saw him coming up on me extremely fast, I asked him how fast he was going to caught up with me to protect me from my own stupidity? He would not tell me. I asked him how he could justify going will over a hundred miles an hour, how driving like that to give me a seat belt ticket was protecting and serving the public the was babbling on about. “I am only here to protect you and the others on the road way sir”! Was really going about 120 protecting me or anyone else on the road way what so ever? He walked away and got in his car a sped away! I didn’t get his name or his badge, for once in my life I really felt like I needed to complain. So with that in mind, wearing your seat belt does protect others, from the stupidity on the CHP and any other law enforcement that wants to go really really fast just to make sure you are on the right track with the legal system at anyone’s cost!:2cents: <o:p></o:p>

nurturetruth

06-04-2007, 05:13 PM

Everyone who posted on this thread has raised some good questions and have expressed some interesting thoughts.

However, I have and will always choose to remain pro-choice on most issues as "choice is the magic of freedom".
even with this issue.

Regardless of WHO chooses to pay for my healthcare ( I have friends who are sovereign who choose NOT to pay taxes...Freedom Law School),
I am grateful I chose to love myself enough to get health care.
(this nation needs better health care options..can't wait for michael moore's , SICKO.)

I also made the CHOICE of asking my Doctor to write me a note excusing me of being mandated to wear a seat belt. My doctor laughed when I told him I needed this note...but he wrote it for me anyway due to my medical condition.

So far, haven't needed to use Doctors note. Hopefully ,won't have to. I will call city hall and the police tomorrow and see if the Doctors note holds up . Medical vs legal... hmmmm :hmmm:

In the meantime, I will just continue to choose to make it LOOK LIKE my seatbelt is on. and be extra aware /mindful when i drive. (no cell phone/head set distraction while driving..do they give out tickets for this?)

P.S...
Mad Miles.. I learned how to drive in north central alabama!! I can recall when the "peace officers" would first give out warnings for not wearing seat belts and then a citation/ticket the 2nd time around..which seems more reasonable.

those were the days....

bird

06-05-2007, 07:48 AM

i know of two beautiful young folks who were recently both killed in calistoga....they were not wearing their seatbelts at the time, and the investigators of the accident stated that if these kids had been wearing their belts at the time.....well.....they'd most likely both still be alive......

Melodymama

06-05-2007, 11:25 AM

What is all the fuss? Do we not have more complicated and serious problems? And when we are not attending to them, do we not have some smiling and laughing and loving to do? I am impressed by how much response there is to this. I have used one so much it requires no thought. If for no other reason, we are all role models for the children who watch us. Songbird

kewl

06-05-2007, 11:39 AM

drumgirl,

it is not clear to me if you knew these people personally, but it is always sad and lifechanging to lose someone
if you are talking about the same people that i know of, well then there is a little bit more to the story. as far as I know there was drinking and reckless driving involved. so was it the seat belts or did the cause start some where else.........

peace
Kewl

i know of two beautiful young folks who were recently both killed in calistoga....they were not wearing their seatbelts at the time, and the investigators of the accident stated that if these kids had been wearing their belts at the time.....well.....they'd most likely both still be alive......

Graton Fire

06-05-2007, 12:00 PM

I have been working in Emergency Services for over 20 years and have personally seen the pre and post-seatbelt law impact. People walk away from crashes that they never would have previously. There are plenty of myths and 3rd party stories about living after being thrown clear of an accident... I have never seen someone live after being thrown from a car, EVER. I am sure it is possible, just not probable.

Seat belt laws have been in place long before the Republicans were running this country or state. I believe Clinton started the federal push for all states to adopt seatbelt laws or lose highway funding dollars (not that I agree with blackmail, but that's another subject). CHP and most law enforcement agencies allow for a grace period for new laws, where they provide a verbal warning only. For a very long time, CHP couldn't pull you over for no seatbelt... there had to be another reason. This has changed with the NATIONAL push by DOT to wear them.

Lawmakers use uninsured as the biggest reason for helmet and seatbelt laws, no question. It costs millions to care for these people. I agree, if you have insurance and want to go kill yourself... that's your choice. Unfortunately, laws can only be applied on the whole, not just the uninsured. I might also suggest that, even with insurance, accidents raise premiums with million dollar hospital costs due to major injuries. In addition, what about children... should parents get to choose if they were seatbelts or ride in a carseat? I have watched children die needlessly prior to the requirement of carseats... nothing affects Fire/Police/Ambulance people more than dead kids.

Okay, let's talk about stats... according to the CHP and CA Dept of Finance from 1994-2003 in Sonoma County.

Fatalities per 15,000 population- 2.2 to 1.8
Injuries per 15,000 population- 157 to 127

Seatbelt use has been linked by numerous reports for this decline in deaths and injuries. It has reached 80 percent nationwide and roadway fatalities are at a 30-year low (US DOT). Is it possible as someone posted that the number injuries and fatalities are roughly the same? Sure. However, your odds are being injured without a seatbelt are significantly higher as only 20% of drivers don't wear them.

Bottom line... please, please, please wear your seatbelt. Ask any firefighter, EMT or Paramedic about their experience with seatbelts... better yet- look for one not wearing his/hers... not going to find it.

There are much easier ways to meet your local firefighters than not wearing your seatbelt during an accident :-)

Bill Bullard, Deputy Chief
Graton Fire Protection District
3205 Ross Road, P.O. Box A
Graton, CA 95444

mailto:[email protected] ([email protected])
https://www.gratonfire.com (https://www.gratonfire.com/)
707-823-5515 ext. 3
707-823-7251 fax

smithers

06-05-2007, 12:56 PM

I've seen mention of "freedom". Freedom to do what, reach the seat behind you and grab something from the back seat? Freedom to reach a stray french fry on the passenger side floor? Sounds like the freedom to drive distractedly and cause an accident.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. The privilege comes with responsibilities.

John

mykil

06-05-2007, 01:09 PM

:hmmm: That to me is the most absurd thing I’ve heard thus far John! LOL! Sounds like something you learned in school, I guess they tried to teach all of us that, it just really gets to me that there are still people that think driving is a privilege! A responsibility yes, A PRIVILEGE? HELL NO! A right? Well there you have it!!!:2cents:

I've seen mention of "freedom". Freedom to do what, reach the seat behind you and grab something from the back seat? Freedom to reach a stray french fry on the passenger side floor? Sounds like the freedom to drive distractedly and cause an accident.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. The privilege comes with responsibilities.

John

Lorrie

06-05-2007, 01:42 PM

Mykil? Have you ever lost your license? No? Well that I guess is the only way you can find out that driving IS a priviledge. :frustration:

Of course, I believe it is a priviledge because it is regulated, by DMV, CHP, and the State of California and other states of course and THEY are the ones that get to tell you that it is a priviledge.:worship:

It is a right to those who have never lost their license, believe me when its gone for a long time and THEY come down on you and supress your priviledge to drive.... You definately have to succum to the verbage "It is a priviledge not a right to drive..."

Aw heck just responding and writing about this is depressing me.... :sigh:

Does anyone have a 150cc scooter for sale? *Sigh* :console:

:hmmm: That to me is the most absurd thing I’ve heard thus far John! LOL! Sounds like something you learned in school, I guess they tried to teach all of us that, it just really gets to me that there are still people that think driving is a privilege! A responsibility yes, A PRIVILEGE? HELL NO! A right? Well there you have it!!!:2cents:

smithers

06-05-2007, 01:50 PM

First, I have to say I love it when people use the terms "most", "best", "worst", and all sorts of other superlatives to describe anything. The terms are thrown around so liberally that it makes it hard to take them seriously.

Second, put your money where your mouth is. Provide links to documents that prove that driving is a right.

John S

:hmmm: That to me is the most absurd thing I’ve heard thus far John! LOL! Sounds like something you learned in school, I guess they tried to teach all of us that, it just really gets to me that there are still people that think driving is a privilege! A responsibility yes, A PRIVILEGE? HELL NO! A right? Well there you have it!!!:2cents:

kewl

06-05-2007, 02:01 PM

Bill,

thank you for your thoughtful post about your personal experience.
and also thank you for cleaning up the mess that accidents leave behind.

Okay, let's talk about stats... according to the CHP and CA Dept of Finance from 1994-2003 in Sonoma County.

Fatalities per 15,000 population- 2.2 to 1.8
Injuries per 15,000 population- 157 to 127so let's talk about your stats
there appears to be about a 20 % decline in injuries and fatalities

Seatbelt use has been linked by numerous reports for this decline in deaths and injuries. It has reached 80 percent nationwide and roadway fatalities are at a 30-year low (US DOT).you don't name any reports, but you come to the conclusion that there is a 80% decline in fatalities.
you contribute this to seat belts.
I am more than a little at a loss with these conclusions, maybe you can extrapolate on this a wee bit more especially considering that
we drive safer cars (ABS, power steering, etc.)
lowered the speed limit in that 30 yr time frame
cars have air bags
drunk driving is considered a crime nowadays
However, your odds are being injured without a seatbelt are significantly higher as only 20% of drivers don't wear them.I am not following this

Bottom line... please, please, please wear your seatbelt. Ask any firefighter, EMT or Paramedic about their experience with seatbelts... better yet- look for one not wearing his/hers... not going to find it.I've never seen a cop get into their car and strap it on
speaking of such, what is your opinion on seat belts in busses, schoolbusses, RV's, campers and the like?
thanks

Kewl

nurturetruth

06-05-2007, 02:36 PM

I mentioned that "choice is the magic of freedom". Because with the freedom to choose..come the choice of whether or not to be aware and mindful..responsible.

Unless everyone is multi-tasked..it is clear that any aware, mindful driver would not talk on phone while driving, would not reach for that french fry or look through their cd's while driving... and they would most definitely choose NOT to drive after drinking... not to tailgate ... and perhaps if there was not a medical condition preventing them to wear their seat belts..they could buckle up.

I am more concerned regarding school buses not having seat belts. I thought they had at least lap belts... :hmmm:

I called Santa Rosa Police Department and left a message with Sergent Dutchlife regarding my particular medical condition , and my doctors note requesting my exemption from having to wear my seat belt across my chest.
Will give updates when I get a call back.

In the meantime.. a motorcycle or scooter doesn't seem like a bad idea..saves gas and no belt!

course..i could sport for a Hot rod Golf Cart. no seat belts required and One does NOT even need a license to scoot around in golf carts!!

mykil

06-05-2007, 02:47 PM

Documentation? I didn't even get my license till I was 36; this is how much I believe that driving is a privilege. Going to the DMV is a privilege to I assume? Never lost something I never had! LOL!!! Never had any problems driving either!!! It’s pretty easy, you just put the car in drive and away you go. Mandatory for getting around I would say. I have been driving since I was 9 and on the road since I was 14. Mandatory for the community I was living in, I wasn’t aloud not to have a truck! Definite not a privilege ever!!!! More like a job that never quits!!! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Lorrie

06-05-2007, 02:54 PM

WHATEVER!!!:dunno:

Documentation? I didn't even get my license till I was 36; this is how much I believe that driving is a privilege. Going to the DMV is a privilege to I assume? Never lost something I never had! LOL!!! Never had any problems driving either!!! It’s pretty easy, you just put the car in drive and away you go. Mandatory for getting around I would say. I have been driving since I was 9 and on the road since I was 14. Mandatory for the community I was living in, I wasn’t aloud not to have a truck! Definite not a privilege ever!!!! More like a job that never quits!!! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

ThePhiant

06-05-2007, 03:59 PM

:smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev:

maybe you should change your name to

MeKill:smkdev:

goes well with that picture of yours:smkdev:
:smkdev:

Documentation? I didn't even get my license till I was 36; this is how much I believe that driving is a privilege. Going to the DMV is a privilege to I assume? Never lost something I never had! LOL!!! Never had any problems driving either!!! It’s pretty easy, you just put the car in drive and away you go. Mandatory for getting around I would say. I have been driving since I was 9 and on the road since I was 14. Mandatory for the community I was living in, I wasn’t aloud not to have a truck! Definite not a privilege ever!!!! More like a job that never quits!!! <o:p></o:p>

nurturetruth

06-05-2007, 04:59 PM

Thanks for the major laugh and creativity..... BUT...

it wouldn't quite work...since mykil is another way of spelling Michael.

(just as Kewl is cool)

:rofl:

In any sense.. Sergant DutchLife returned my phone call and quoted the California Vehicle Code Section 27315 section G stating:

" passenger or operator with a physically disabling condition or medical condition which would prevent appropriate restraint in a safety belt, if the condition is duly certified by a licensed physician and surgeon or by a licensed chiropractor who shall state the nature of the condition, as well as the reason the restraint is inappropriate. "
(https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27315.htm)

Dutchlife went on to say that the Driver should take the responsibility of printing up a copy of the Vehicle code section G and keeping this along with the Doctors note/Chiropractors note in the car at all times.

He told me that they and the county are now done with their 3 week campaign of "click it or ticket" and that he actually did NOT give citations to 2-3 different people who DID have medical notes/excuses from their Doctors!

He said that if I or anyone else with a medical condition ever got cited by a cop in his department, he would personally want to know about it so he could take action on that specific officer.

So.. if ya dont wanna ticket..better have a LEGIT excuse!

Cause..those seat belt tickets..they WILL NOT come off your driving record. EVER!
They are NOT like speeding tickets where they come off your record after 3 years. Nope. They just keep buildin' and the fees just keep increasin'.

1) Have ya seen the chiropractor lately? (many drivers have seen a chiro before)
2) Do you have claustrophobia? (many drivers do. they can't be around slow drivers, or big rig trucks. )

Thanks everyone ! This subject matter has shed light and now i will be a responsible driver. with or without the seat belt. MY CHOICE!

May all drivers take responsibility , hold awareness and be safe! (and witty/smart)

:smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkdev::smkde v::smkdev::smkdev:

maybe you should change your name to

MeKill:smkdev:

goes well with that picture of yours:smkdev:
:smkdev:

smithers

06-05-2007, 05:20 PM

Nice example, poorly executed, of ducking the question.

Documentation? I didn't even get my license till I was 36; this is how much I believe that driving is a privilege. Going to the DMV is a privilege to I assume? Never lost something I never had! LOL!!! Never had any problems driving either!!! It’s pretty easy, you just put the car in drive and away you go. Mandatory for getting around I would say. I have been driving since I was 9 and on the road since I was 14. Mandatory for the community I was living in, I wasn’t aloud not to have a truck! Definite not a privilege ever!!!! More like a job that never quits!!! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

mykil

06-05-2007, 06:22 PM

Hey John; I wrote you a long note and deleted it, was of bad taste! Anyway, everyone is allowed an opinion, even if yours is wrong [teasing]! You putting me to work scouring the Internet just to satisfy a need won’t work with me, I have way to much freedom in mind to go there, also have a date! But I do not conceder big brother watching me a treat that I should acknowledge as being a privilege. Soooo, anyhow peace, and hope we can talk on other subjects that have a bit more bite to them, then I might conceder chasing the rainbow!:wink:

Nice example, poorly executed, of ducking the question.

smithers

06-05-2007, 07:08 PM

Hey Mykil,

I appreciate the restraint. Congratulations on the date :)

I never said or would say that Big Brother watching us is a treat. Saying something is a privilege and that it is a treat are not synonymous.

My problem with the general line of the conversation, and this is not aimed specifically at you, is that some assertions are being stated as fact, without proof. Organizations are being incompletely cited, so I have a hard time trusting the information. Anybody remember documents/reports being quoted by a certain monkey at the top saying that Saddam was attempting to acquire yellowcake uranium from Africa?

John S

Hey John; I wrote you a long note and deleted it, was of bad taste! Anyway, everyone is allowed an opinion, even if yours is wrong [teasing]! You putting me to work scouring the Internet just to satisfy a need won’t work with me, I have way to much freedom in mind to go there, also have a date! But I do not conceder big brother watching me a treat that I should acknowledge as being a privilege. Soooo, anyhow peace, and hope we can talk on other subjects that have a bit more bite to them, then I might conceder chasing the rainbow!:wink:

mykil

06-06-2007, 09:47 AM

Martin Miller pretty much started the public defenders office in the late sixties in Sonoma County, now he argued this exact case in Sonoma courtrooms in front of Passalacqua and Antoline’ in the early nineties, they both agreed with him! Tip of the Iceberg? I would imagine! This is just one instant that you ask for, since it is not on the big net, I suggest you go look it up at the Law Library in town. One instant, One county, Day old Argument? Since Martin Can Really Do No Wrong, in one mans opinion, This is all I need. If you need more go look it up for yourself. This is really one instant and there are literally thousands of other counties in our country! Day old argument doesn’t mean make Mykil look stupid does it? Thanks for trying thou John!!! Do some research and don’t be so shallow, that is my job!!!!! In my opinion Driving is a RIGHT!!!! In one man’s opinion!!!!!:2cents:

Hey Mykil,

I appreciate the restraint. Congratulations on the date :)

I never said or would say that Big Brother watching us is a treat. Saying something is a privilege and that it is a treat are not synonymous.

My problem with the general line of the conversation, and this is not aimed specifically at you, is that some assertions are being stated as fact, without proof. Organizations are being incompletely cited, so I have a hard time trusting the information. Anybody remember documents/reports being quoted by a certain monkey at the top saying that Saddam was attempting to acquire yellowcake uranium from Africa?

John S

Moon

06-16-2007, 12:33 AM

The numbers are higher for those observing safety precautions are higher because more than twice as many people take those precautions as do not.
Traffic crash mortality rates in the US declined by 44 percent between 1969 and 2003, ... 129297 by increased use of seat belts, 4305 by increased air bag ...
When physicists analyze accidents that took place without seat belts or such, they find that a much lower incidence of fatality and degree of injury would have occurred with those in place. Because my father sold life insurance, we were
the first family i knew to have our car retrofitted with seat belts. Dad used to come home and tell us about a beneficiary who'd not have collected if only the client had been wearing a seat belt; the client would have had cuts and a broken bone instead of having their spinal column shot through a tree like a soda straw through a potato.
Um, by the way...if you don't mind a little wry humor--when were cops protectors of all that is good?

had the cop asked nicely, to put my seatbelt on, I would have done so and even kept it on too. because after all I would have given him my word of honor, but as it happened this time, I took it off as soon as he was out of sight after all I PAID for the right not to wear a seatbelt!
read the following and let me know what you think!

According to the California Highway Patrol's most available data, 2001, there were 2,764 fatal automobile accidents that year. Those killed wearing seat belts numbered 1,496. The number killed not wearing a seat belt: 1,268. Of the 266,777 injury accidents that same year, the number injured wearing a seat belt: 237, 028. Those injured not wearing a seat belt: 29,749.

In the motorcycle category, there were 295 fatalities the same year. Number of motorcycle operators killed wearing a helmet: 254. Number killed not wearing a helmet: 41. Injury accidents for motorcycles numbered 8,405. Those injured wearing a helmet: 7,085. Injured not wearing a helmet: 1,320.

nurturetruth

07-08-2007, 03:04 PM

Peace officers and the COPS will be out and about with speed traps NOW, THIS WEEK and perhaps longer...

please click the below link to the Press Democrat for more detailed as to "WHERE" these " SPEED TRAPS" are located:

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070708/NEWS/707080395/1033/NEWS01

PEACE

:heart:

rbulwa

07-08-2007, 11:01 PM

Please pardon me "naturetruth", but instead of warning people by spreading such information, wouldn't the "peace"ful thing be to drive at a safe speed and encourage others to do the same?

Just my two cents...

Peace officers and the COPS will be out and about with speed traps NOW, THIS WEEK and perhaps longer...

please click the below link to the Press Democrat for more detailed as to "WHERE" these " SPEED TRAPS" are located:

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070708/NEWS/707080395/1033/NEWS01

PEACE

:heart:

nurturetruth

07-09-2007, 12:12 AM

No Pardon Necessary!

You speak well my friend! Just for your info, I enjoy driving at safe speeds..and i enjoy being in the Flow...

I actually enjoy not going so fast so that I can enjoy and appreciate Nature and be present.

There are many unsafe SLOW drivers out there....

so i DO encourage and bless everyone on their journey as they navigate their vehicle.

I wonder if the Press Democrat thinks that it is encouraging "peaceful obedient drivers " by publishing "where" the traps are...

I actually got a chuckle when I chose to read the article .

Its counter productive to tell where the traps are...but helpful to those who might not wear their seat belts!

And as to add to promoting a calmer attentive driving energy.....

Dont talk on the phone and drive!

And please, love and respect yourself and others enough to drive at a "safe speed".

Rbulwa, thank you for bringing forth your mindfulness .
be careful not to drive TOO SLOW... as they can cause just as many accidents as speeders.

:ylwcar:

:yinyang:

Please pardon me "naturetruth", but instead of warning people by spreading such information, wouldn't the "peace"ful thing be to drive at a safe speed and encourage others to do the same?

Just my two cents...

lifequest

07-09-2007, 05:51 AM

The police themselves provide the days/times of their "speed enforcement" activities to the Press Democrat. Most of it occurs during non-commute hours when the roads are less traveled so people tend to drive faster and places like Santa Rosa can make a lot of revenue.. the minimum ticket is around $120. Most people don't bother to read of the advance notice of the speedtraps so I'm grateful for the information.

So I say don't delete the post despite one person's comments. Just about everyone will admit to driving over the speed limit on occasion and the more useful information out there the better. I'd prefer to see Santa Rosa devote more police resources to combatting crime and gang activities but the easy way for them is to ticket speeders.