The Mind Of God

[Tars]

For the Christianists in our government who would tell us how the human race began, when life begins, who to marry, how to live our lives:

https://www.rpriddle.com/webpix/cloudwaters.gif"All great religions, in order to escape absurdity, have to admit a dilution of agnosticism. It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord?" asked Paul of the Romans. "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His was past finding out." "It is the glory of God," said Solomon, "to conceal a thing." "Clouds and darkness," said David, "are around Him." "No man," said the Preacher, "can find out the work of God." ... The difference between religions is a difference in their relative content of agnosticism. The most satisfying and ecstatic faith is almost purely agnostic. It trusts absolutely without professing to know at all," - H. L. Mencken. (https://history.enotes.com/famous-quotes/all-great-religions-in-order-to-escape-absurdity)

[tomcat]

Right on Dude!
Tom

For the Christianists in our government who would tell us how the human race began, when life begins, who to marry, how to live our lives: ...

[Sara S]

I saw a good bumper sticker a while back: Evolution is just a theory--sort of like gravity.

["Mad" Miles]

Stayed with friends in Berkeley last night. Still here clearing net text. There is a bumpersticker on the kitchen counter that amuses:

"Republicans For Voldemort"

www.goats.com (https://www.goats.com)

Nice R, W and B flag motif.

Cheery Bye!

"M"M

[mykil]

I see allot of stickers on cars, , I seek them out, I think they are a great inspiration to me! My all time favorite has to be the Jesus fish with the "N chips" in the middle! :2cents: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

["Mad" Miles]

"N Chips" ? Maybe it's the bronchitis but... I don't see it. Wha?

:hmmm:

Guess this proves once and for all that I for one, don't have the mind of god!

[mykil]

Oh wow; you are a little slow tonight, OR I just didn't make myself clear! Hmmmm you know the little darwin fish yes, you know the little jesus fish glued to the back of cars everywhere, little metal fish that have the word jesus in them, then came the darwin fish, then came "n chips"! If need be Ill draw you a picture and send it to you!!!!! LMAO!!!!

[Dixon]

I see allot of stickers on cars, , I seek them out, I think they are a great inspiration to me!

I have an idea for a Zen bumper sticker: just cut a hole, the size and shape of a bumper sticker, in the bumper.

Probably my favorite of the bumper stickers I've seen would be:

"Illiterate? Write today for free brochure!"

Dixon

[nurturetruth]

For the Christianists in our government who would tell us how the human race began, when life begins, who to marry, how to live our lives:

"All great religions, in order to escape absurdity, have to admit a dilution of agnosticism. It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord?" asked Paul of the Romans. "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His was past finding out." "It is the glory of God," said Solomon, "to conceal a thing." "Clouds and darkness," said David, "are around Him." "No man," said the Preacher, "can find out the work of God." ... The difference between religions is a difference in their relative content of agnosticism. The most satisfying and ecstatic faith is almost purely agnostic. It trusts absolutely without professing to know at all," - H. L. Mencken. (https://history.enotes.com/famous-quotes/all-great-religions-in-order-to-escape-absurdity)

"Just as mind is the human meaning of the brain, so God is the theological meaning of mind. That is, all that people have meant by the term "God" -- experientially, conceptually, institutionally -- constitutes the criterion that determines what matters most to human beings. My argument, then, involves two assumptive leaps: (1) from brain to mind -- that is, from physical processes to human significance; and (2) from mind to God -- that is, from historically derived values to transcendent values. God represents that for which we have been created and that which we seek in our longing to be and become who we truly are. Whatever that may be!!

Even if we evolve something from nothing!!
or from a big bang! or perhaps let us rather enjoy the stillness of knowing nothing...which eventually makes space to keep receiving something if we so choose....

Consider: that god is YOU.
It has been proven that the word God=Nature on a numerological value level by ancient Hebrew Scholars.

and we can choose to be either aware or unaware of truth. perhaps truth is awareness...but truth or "to trust" is not synonymous with "to believe" or "the process of belief".

Alas, the People without a form of government almost always produces anarchy. There is NO government of the kingdom of God aka 'The Force', outside his/her own church. (inner self..or inner brain/beliefs). The primary purpose of the individual being- church is to establish ITS OWN gov't/reality... There is no end to government/reality sadly enough. perhaps an end to religion and its absurdness one day.....

Therefore, the questions are: Do we play a part of that government, or are we rebels?" :hmmm: and.. "is ignorance truly bliss?"

"if "the Force" energy did not include all things to be Universal and if it recognized anything as being outside Itself, would be to deny its very being.
so the nature of Universal intelligence is perhaps ,an absence of individual personality........
though we perhaps have been conditioned to believe that we are individuals, we are actually a part of the grand Universal nature that is infinite in its possibilities :idea: ...with all of our vibrations vibrating. regardless of anything!"

hmmmmmm........ I am just wondering what was before the BIG BANG !! "May the Force (farce?) be with you! "

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/string_theory-1.png

["Mad" Miles]

Re: "Fish'n'Chips"<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Hadn't seen the sticker out there, (or am I projecting from Mykil's projection which is not an actual "image in the world"?) So the joke escaped me.

Don't we almost always suffer from the flaws we find most irritating in others? In the past I've occasionally made the blanket accusation that some on this board, and many out there in the "real" world, are irony impaired. Perhaps that is also one of my many lacks.<o:p></o:p>
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Regarding the discussion of "God" as an expression of human need, potential and that s/he/it/they/us is something just beyond the limin (threshold) of our sense of self, control, every day reality, etc.<o:p></o:p>
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Another idea is that concepts of God, and its attendant religious systems, were invented by elites to keep the masses in line and malleable to social and economic control.

"Hey, I'M not telling you to do it. GOD IS! Us priests and priestesses just happen to have the best line of communication to him/her/them/us so trust us, WE KNOW, OR ELSE!!!"<o:p></o:p>
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Based on my reading of history, I am very sympathetic to this latter analysis.<o:p></o:p>
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And on the idea that concepts of the divine are just vague, floating signifiers for what we semi-consciously, or unconsciously, project into the world (or are reflected back to us from that world, or given that "all is ONE", there is a seamless (w)hole that is beyond our limited and fragmented perceptual apparati) well, most people who believe in divine entities tend to personalize them into some form of extra-material, yet corporeal beings that have; identity, consciousness, personality, etc.. <o:p></o:p>
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In other words, in most actually practiced religions / spiritual longing, seeking, path exploring efforts, people project or encounter entities that to them are more than just a mix of abstract concepts.<o:p></o:p>
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And there's the rub. It's one thing to talk about values and concepts as indicators of universal, or at least partially universal, being/reality, it is another to personalize (in the sense of being a person, not in the sense of making it important to oneself) those concepts and believing (having faith) that those persons, either incorporeal, or manifested sometimes corporeally, are GOD(DESS).<o:p></o:p>
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Whatever ya want, as long as you don't try to pressure me into thinking like you. And leave the kids alone and let them make up their own minds!<o:p></o:p>
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Fish' N' Chips? Occasionally, lightly battered and not too greasy, with lots of salt, malt vinegar and some hot sauce. Now that's a spiritual path I've followed off and on for years! And I've the fine corporeal figure to prove it!<o:p></o:p>
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"Mad" Miles<o:p></o:p>
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:kneel:

:raindrops:

:lightening:

[nurturetruth]

May the force/farce be with us all ! :Jedi:




Re: "Fish'n'Chips"<o:p></o:p>
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Hadn't seen the sticker out there, (or am I projecting from Mykil's projection which is not an actual "image in the world"?) So the joke escaped me....

[dreyfusj]

There is a lot of material here for a recovering atheist who followed the trail of historical evidence to the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived (virtually undisputed), was murdered by the Romans (virtually undisputed), was buried in a borrowed tomb (virtually undisputed) and rose from the dead on the third day (in my judgment, the only available conclusion to be drawn from an examination of the historical record).
Considering that I am the only person on either side of my family to come to faith in Jesus and that I actually set out to satisfy myself that the whole notion was a myth, I invite you to be as startled as I was.
I like the notion of space for agnosticism if, by that, we mean uncertainty as to God's intentions. So far I am reasonably certain that Jesus died to reconcile us with God and that my purpose on earth is to be a conduit of His perfect love. I am a less than perfect conduit and praying for improvement. Beyond these things I am content to wait on The Lord for an understanding of His will.
He loves us all and that is the Good News.

[mykil]

Prayer is a wonderful tool, yet when I do pray, I have a sneaking suspicion that I am only praying to our world and not beyond. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I have come to the conclusion in my own mind that we are one and when I do pray I am only praying to this oneness, not beyond. At this point in time, my believes have subsided to this point and not beyond. I really don’t believe my prayers are making it beyond our own world. The vibration stops here!!! [String theory in all].<o:p></o:p>
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With this all said and done, my prayers have now become localized, more of a family pray for all over the world. Although on occasion I still pray for our galaxies and beyond. [I do cover all my bases]!!!<o:p></o:p>
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To follow one leader is just wrong, to pray for just one god is just wrong, what is he vain? He needs all our prayers for himself? This is the way I was brought up; I think I need a Christian recovery group at some point in time just to get this bull out of my system. Not that there’s anything wrong with it!<o:p></o:p>
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At any rate, next time you are praying to our lord, just realize that you may only be praying to all of us, and that I for one will be listening!<o:p></o:p>

[nurturetruth]

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
~ Albert Einstein (1879-1955), "Science, Philosophy & Religion: 1941


"The worst moment for the atheist is when she/he is really thankful and has nobody to thank." Dante' Rossetti (1828-1882)


I personally have always admired atheists. It does take alot of Faith!

I once even wanted to become an atheist...but they don't have any holidays!!









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[Shazzer]

re: an answer to the cartoon...all those tiny vibrating strings may create a joyous sound!



...

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/string_theory-1.png

[dreyfusj]

So much to respond to I can't cover it all.
Nurturetruth wonders "what was before the Big Bang ?" It appears there is an answer to that. I heard a leading British cosmologist on NPR no so long ago discussing the Big Bang and he was asked that very question. He said science is only slightly less confident in the answer to that question than they are in the fact of the Big Bang itself.
The answer ? Nothing . According to science there was "nothing" and then there was a "singularity" and all the energy and matter in the universe was created instantaneously in an infinitesimally small dot and simultaneously exploded (the Big Bang) out into the universe as we know it.
It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe. Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
I think I'll stick with the facts.

[mykil]

Dreyfusj; Tell us more, Tell us more! Don't hold back we are bored and want to hear what you have to say!



So much to respond to I can't cover it all.
Nurturetruth wonders "what was before the Big Bang ?" It appears there is an answer to that. I heard a leading British cosmologist on NPR no so long ago discussing the Big Bang and he was asked that very question. He said science is only slightly less confident in the answer to that question than they are in the fact of the Big Bang itself.
The answer ? Nothing . According to science there was "nothing" and then there was a "singularity" and all the energy and matter in the universe was created instantaneously in an infinitesimally small dot and simultaneously exploded (the Big Bang) out into the universe as we know it.
It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe. Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
I think I'll stick with the facts.

[dreyfusj]

mykil, thanks for your note. What part would you like to hear ? About the atheist/agnostic-raised smart mouth teenager who used to like to reduce Catholic kids to tears asking questions they couldn't answer ?
About the college newspaper editor writing a bitter editorial about the hypocrisy of Christians at Christmas and later wondering why he cared ? About the man finally deciding to put the matter to rest once and for all and look up the book/essay/article that proved conclusively that Jesus was a myth and finding the evidence proving otherwise ?
I have not changed my youthful opinion about the story of God, Creation, Jesus, the Ressurection or Eternal Life. The story is absurd beyond description, implausible beyond measure, impossible, unbelievable and unworthy of the attention of intelligent people. It's only redeeming virtue is that it's true and, as such, the most important information on the planet.
Tell me what you'd like to hear or just keep saying "More". I love an audience.

[tomcat]

"Nothing" IS a very difficult concept to wrap one's mind around, since nothing is there... so does that mean nothing IS not something or just the lack of something we know about... and just where did this small dot of singularity come from? It had to come from somewhere, which is not nowhere, where nothing is. Ouch, I've given myself another infinity headache!

As far as I can tell, the human mind must be insufficient to really understand or explain concepts like "infinity" or "nothing" or "God", so that's why people make their best case and say it must be believed on "faith".

There are lots of nice stories to be read, but I don't know that they are all 'fact', tho we are all free to believe what we want and I understand that people need to believe in 'something' sometimes so they don't go nuts and for other social comfort reasons.

All I know is that 'I don't know' and I believe that anyone who says that they DO know is just making it up, given up, been duped, tricked, confused, or something worse. As long as they are happy and don't try to convert me, I'm OK with that.


So much to respond to I can't cover it all.
Nurturetruth wonders "what was before the Big Bang ?" It appears there is an answer to that. I heard a leading British cosmologist on NPR no so long ago discussing the Big Bang and he was asked that very question. He said science is only slightly less confident in the answer to that question than they are in the fact of the Big Bang itself.
The answer ? Nothing . According to science there was "nothing" and then there was a "singularity" and all the energy and matter in the universe was created instantaneously in an infinitesimally small dot and simultaneously exploded (the Big Bang) out into the universe as we know it.
It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe. Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
I think I'll stick with the facts.

[Tars]

just where did this small dot of singularity come from? It had to come from somewhere, which is not nowhere, where nothing is.

{lifts gaze from navel}
Current most-accepted theory is that there are numerous universes. It is believed that some forms of energy or physical effect, most notably gravity, may move between the universes. If gravity, then why not matter? It's all really one, isn't it?

If matter came to this universe from another, then it just extends the question out, and we wonder where it all originally came into being. I don't care, as it was numerous billions of years ago, and will be here at least numerous billions of years after my speck of awareness has flared out.

I'm much more concerned with where that danged bunion on my toe came from, than I am with how the universe began.

Perhaps the most effective way of dealing with how it all came to be, is via a platitude like, "think universally, act locally". It's an amusing little distraction to wonder & discuss the nature of the universe, & how our pet theory justifies our individual concept of God. But perhaps each of us can affect the nature of that universe the most by concerning ourselves mostly with what kind of energy we individually can contribute to our universe.
{resumes navel fixation}

[Dixon]

...It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe.

Please note that there is a HUGE difference between, on the one hand, faith in well-verified principles of reason and, on the other hand, the kind of "faith" that involves believing whatever superstition meets your needs on the basis of specious logic and wishful thinking.


Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
I think I'll stick with the facts.

As a recovering ex-Christian (former Mormon and born-again fundamentalist preacher), I can only shake my head sadly at this kind of stuff.

For those of you seeking a nice belief system that will allow you to indulge your natural tendencies toward misogyny, homophobia, self-centeredness, irrationality, repressive prudishness, planet-raping and imperialism, with the bonus of helping you deny the reality of unpleasantries such as uncertainty, (relative) powerlessness, and death, I heartily recommend conservative Christianity.

Yecccchchhhhh!

Yours in Christ :^)

Dixon

[dreyfusj]

Wow ! I can no longer afford to leave my computer for a minute. Stay away a day and I've been " duped, tricked and confused" [tomcat], into "an amusing little distraction" [Tars] that might lead me to become a misogynistic, homophobic, irrational planet raper [Dixon].

And here I thought I had merely used a reasonable intelligence to follow credible evidence and overcome a lifetime of training in atheism/agnosticism to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again. I don't consider I was "duped or tricked" because I did it all myself. Jesus seems to me more than an "amusing distraction", indeed, if true, He is indisputably the single most important fact in human history. Finally, I got here believing in a human cause for global warming, driving a hybrid, recycling my trash and etc. Oh, and I don't recall hating any homosexuals, even as individuals, to say nothing of as a class.

I shake my head sadly when what I believe to be the truth about Jesus is smeared with every sick, criminal and just plain lousy thing that has ever been done in His name and that list is endless.

Set aside the criminals, the fakers, the takers, the phonies and the hypocrites and give Him a chance. The book says "whosoever believes in Him", not "Him and" anything. The rest of that stuff doesn't signify.

In love. Jared

[Tars]

Wow ! I can no longer afford to leave my computer for a minute. Stay away a day and I've been " duped, tricked and confused" [tomcat], into "an amusing little distraction" [Tars] that might lead me to become a misogynistic, homophobic, irrational planet raper [Dixon].

Clue: The discussion here's not about you, or your personal beliefs.

Your devotion to your perspective is noted by all. You're welcomed, as are all, to entertain your own theories about the nature of the universe and/or God. Please don't feel like you need to share here again how wonderful it is. Suggest you start your own thread about your personal beliefs. Realize that it isn't an attack on you personally when others here chose to see things differently. Please try to extend them the same courtesy, OK?

Again I reiterate this dreyfus, this discussion isn't about you personally, when I say that problems arise when zealots, whether Christianists, Islamists, atheists, or whatever, try to impose their personal theories on others who don't happen to share them. Friction results when an "ist" of any ilk uses a discussion to try and force feed others those religious beliefs. It's mainly just tedious. But, the friction starts getting white-hot when that zealot happens to be very powerful in our society, such as a president, senator, or supreme court judge, and force-feeds society their personal beliefs via formation of laws.

I suppose we're lucky on one level, that the pols & people of power who would legislate our morals for us don't belong to the Church Of Screaming Obsceneties. What an obnoxious clatter that would be! No, their beliefs afflict us much more quietly.

Rodney King asked a profound question. Profound because it can be applied so widely.

Tars
https://www.rpriddle.com/webpix/churchsign.jpg

[mykil]

I think just the PeeP's alone that have replied to this post would be enough to start a Christian Recovery Group! LOL! Not that there’s anything wrong with it! Teasing Dreyfus!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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On another note I have been keeping my eyes on lately. Over the last Thirty years or so Buddhism has increased by a tremendous amount, the following that Buddhism has now must be 100 fold in just the last twenty years. I think this might have allot to do with people actually using there own minds, and not being brain washed by our would be ancestors that had nothing better to do than read all day, in there pre TV, car, walkman, bicycle, CD player, Ipod, lack of people within ten minutes of them, easy going boring made-up lifestyle. I was reading a study a lady at Harvard did over the years. In 1970 and again in 1990, the average person spent an extra 173 hours per year working in 1990 compared to 1970. Why? This is a whole month worth of work per year! The simple reason is technology; we have the capabilities to stay in touch, staying focused, and keep on top of those that need to keep them motivated. With that in mind, do we really have room or time to continue the Christianity movement in our time? IT really takes up to much time in our busy life just to keep up with it, all the Sundayz, all the time spent volunteering at the Church fund raisers, all the church outings. Its no wonder people are shifting gears, I feel Buddhism will prevail as the leader in the new world, simple enough to follow five simple rules of engagement and so on and so on and so on… Peace and BTW I am not currently practicing any religion! :2cents: <o:p></o:p>
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[Dixon]

...I had merely used a reasonable intelligence to follow credible evidence and overcome a lifetime of training in atheism/agnosticism to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again.

And I overcame a lifetime of training in Christianity to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ, if he existed at all, died two millennia ago and that there's no reason to accept the bizarre belief that he rose from the dead. This theme of rising from the dead, like other aspects of the Jesus myth, is a relatively recent variation of the "solar hero" myth that stretches back to at least the Stone Age, predating Christianity by millennia. Here's a relevant quote:

"In the first century of the common Era, there appeared at the eastern end of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was the son of God, though he called himself the son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven. Who was this teacher and wonder-worker? His name was Apollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 A.D., and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's 'Life of Apollonius'.

"Readers who too hastily presumed that the preceding described Apollonius's slightly earlier contemporary, Jesus of Nazareth, may be forgiven their error if they will reflect how readily the human imagination embroiders the careers of notable figures of the past with common mythical and fictional embellishments." (from 'Gospel Fictions' by Randel Helms).


Jesus seems to me more than an "amusing distraction", indeed, if true, He is indisputably the single most important fact in human history

Well if, as you say, you're not a homophobe or a planet-raper, that's great; you sound more enlightened than conservative Christians. However, your phrase "...if true, He is indisputably the single most important fact in human history" is quite ethnocentric, not to mention insulting to the billions who don't see this "indisputable" fact as being true and have the temerity to believe in other gods for whom the evidence is every bit as good (or bad) as the evidence for Jesus.


...give Him a chance.

I did give Him (sic) a chance, Jared, for years. "He" didn't work.


The book says "whosoever believes in Him"...

"The book" also explicitly endorses slavery, imperialism, homophobia and misogyny. And if you claim not to be misogynistic, why are you invoking a "Him" rather than a "Her"? The last I heard, Christians worshipped a triune God with one neuter and two male aspects--no allowance for the feminine at all, divinity apparently being a trait that's carried on the Y chromosome. What a slap in the face to women! I'll believe you're not misogynistic when you induct a goddess of equal power into your pantheon. Patriarchy sucks--and not even very well!

Blessings;

Dixon

["Mad" Miles]

Regarding Dixon's able critique of Christianity:

What he said!

And in addition.
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One of my major and primary objections to the religion that I was reared in (pun intended) and of which I was a devout late adolescent practitioner from the spring of 1972 to the spring of 1975 was its Platonic philosophical basis. <o:p></o:p>
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If, as Hellenistic Platonists led by Saul of Tarsus* believed, the material world, Life On This Planet, is a secondary, corrupt and inherently flawed and damaged copy of the Real World of Spirit, then everything we experience in life is incomplete and unimportant in comparison to that "real" realm of Spirit. (i.e. relation to GOD, Heaven, Salvation and All That)<o:p></o:p>
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*aka St. Paul who wrote all the "Letters to The ***" in the New Testament.<o:p></o:p>
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I find this to be a flawed, unsatisfactory and profoundly dismissive understanding of lived, embodied experience. If there is a conscious creative entity responsible for it all, then this view is profoundly insulting to "its/their" creative efforts.<o:p></o:p>
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For me the jury is still out on the questions of "where did it all come from, who's in charge." I choose to "Let the Mystery Be" as Iris DeMent so well put it.<o:p></o:p>
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I focus on what is in front of me, biological life. My own, and life in general. On the rest I have a wait and see, and let's not worry about it, attitude.<o:p></o:p>
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And please don't pull the, "rationality is inadequate, we must have faith" Trope. Of course it is, but Reason is all we've got! The real question is which system of Reason do you apply to your critical inquiries? <o:p></o:p>
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As I claimed back in the spring of '75, while initiating the seduction of my first lover (or was I the innocent lamb swayed by a woman of the world? There's evidence for both sides of that interpretation!) all systems of thought, whether scientific or spiritual (or some combination derived from all of the above) are based on acts of faith. Faith here defined as the making of a claim of Truth that is not supported, or supportable, by rational justification using verifiable evidence.<o:p></o:p>
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In Science it is the belief that the evidence of our senses bears some relationship to the real world. While that is a complicated and interesting question* it is still the best foundation for intellectual inquiry that I've heard about. As for ghosts, spirits, Gods and Goddesses, hey, have fun, but don't try to dominate me or scare the children and animals. If you want to wig out over the mystical, be my guest, just don't do it in my house uninvited. And that invitation will be a long time coming.<o:p></o:p>
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* Let's hear it for the English Rationalists, Berkeley, Locke and Hume!!! In Da HOUSE! And if it weren't for old Rene, where would they have found someone to argue about and with? Zut!<o:p></o:p>
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After my rejection of the Christian version of reality, I came up with this:<o:p></o:p>
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Did you know that Christianity is the only major world religion that practices ritual cannibalism and uses an instrument of torture and execution as its primary symbol?<o:p></o:p>
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Those are an irrefutable set of facts. And hopefully not comfortable ones for Christians.<o:p></o:p>
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Perhaps from that perspective, even a Christian can understand the revulsion and antipathy that many feel for their belief system. And let's not forget the acts of terror, brutality and slaughter consistently and thoroughly done in the name of Christ. Of course, Christianity is not the only religion used for evil, but so far, at this point in human history, it is the most dominant and successful religion deployed in the interest of Conquest and Empire. Lessen ya count Marxist-Leninism, which gave it a good run for its money in the last century, but seems (thankfully) to be down and out for the mo'.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
If Christians practiced what they claim is the core of their belief; Love, Forgiveness and Charity, then perhaps my resentment, nay RAGE, against it would be ameliorated. This assessment is based on my experience as a devout Jesus Freak for three years, my reading of history, and my other experiences for the last thirty-two years.

Those experiences led me to conclude that when it comes to the larger denominations of Protestantism, and for Catholicism, it's all hype, lip service to those values. It's a shallow and transparent justification for a hypocritical adherence to values which are, in practice, a cover for the opposite of those claimed values; Rage, Vengeance and Greed.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The truth will out. Actions speak louder than words. And a system based on the denial of Life and its Value for the Living, is going to produce some sick, twisted results. It only stands to, yeah I'm gonna affirm it!, REASON. (Whatever that means....)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It's a beautiful morning.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Cheers Babies!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
"M"M<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
P.S. Please don't think that in spite of my devastating critique (at least in my own over-inflated arrogant opinion!) of the belief system known as Christianity, that I don't recognize some of its positive contributions to history.

Many of the best anti-apartheid, anti-nuclear (power and weapons), anti-intervention in Central America, anti-militarist, etc., etc., activists that I've worked with over the years have been, are, Christians. And they were motivated to act by their commitment to Christian values.

But also many of the best, most dedicated activists were/are Socialists, or Anarchists, or Rationalist/Humanists, or just regular nice well-meaning average types without any strong ideological and/or spiritual motivation.
And most used combinations of all of the ways of thinking I've just listed.

And some were motivated by non-Christian Spiritual/Religious beliefs such as Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Zen both secular and Buddhist, Atheism, Agnosticism, Ong-Yangism, Animism, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, Church of Bobism, you name it!

But most, for whatever reasons, were trying to do the right thing and stop the greedy, ignorantly selfish and rude from hurting them and others. How they interpreted the origin of the universe, and how it's run was either secondary, or irrelevant, to the struggle at hand.
<o:p></o:p>
And where would African-Americans be without the support and solidarity of their churches? The struggle against brutal discriminatory laws and forces would have been very different without Black Protestantism.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It's also a great story, among many others, that has enriched our culture. And I have certainly been marked by it. I still, within "Reason", practice love, forgiveness and charity, even if the system that inculcated it into me is no longer part of my belief. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And perhaps, no matter the religion of the day, humans will always find ways to pervert and exploit spirituality to further their own selfish ends. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But if a system is inherently, fundamentally, imbedded in the very fabric of its philosophical basis, a life-denying, life-denigrating and life-reducing way of thinking, and I've realized that by participating in it and reading its primary texts very closely, over and over. Then, well, maybe believers need to rethink the project. Perhaps even reject it for something a little more consistent and life affirming.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
One thing I personally gained from being a youthful Jesus Freak was that in going to Bible studies I first experienced the pleasures and benefits of sitting around with a group of sympathetic and like-minded people while closely reading and discussing a text. That started me on the path to Philosophy and seventeen years of reading, discussing and occasionally writing about Social and Political Philosophy / Theory. And for that, and the knowledge gained therein that led me away from simplistic stories for gullible children I thank all the Christians in the world, past, present and future.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
:hmmm:

[tomcat]

[quote=dreyfusj;28372]Wow ! I can no longer afford to leave my computer for a minute. Stay away a day and I've been " duped, tricked and confused" [tomcat], into "an amusing little distraction" [Tars] that might lead me to become a misogynistic, homophobic, irrational planet raper [Dixon].

Well, for my part in this dreyfusj, When I said...

"All I know is that 'I don't know' and I believe that anyone who says that they DO know is just making it up, given up, been duped, tricked, confused, or something worse. As long as they are happy and don't try to convert me, I'm OK with that."

...I was giving KNOWERS the benefit of the doubt and a menu to pick from. The "something worse" was a fill in the blank, but 'fooling themselves' might fit in there nicely.
I do appreciate it tho that you recycle and all that. Keep up the good work.
Tom

[Nirmala]

The world is a fascinating, wonderful, magical place filled with loving caring people and also containing the opposite. So, how do we wrap our minds around the extremes of gluttony and starvation, killing and compassion that surround us? Religion seems to be one of the answers yet because there are so many people with so many differing interests, skills, abilities and experiences we have many religions. Rather than using your religion or lack of, as a weapon to fight against others of different religions, I suggest this. Explore your own religion or belief system and see what it has to tell you about how to live today on this planet. What are the ethical guidelines and how can you live/embody them? Don't waste your precious life energy trying to disprove a different belief. Be the best agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever, you can be. Stop blaming and look within. And if you do want to spend time grappling with the metaphysical questions, then live in the wonder of the question. Keep that wonderful beautiful mind open and spacious, don't harden over what you don't know or what you think you do know.

[dreyfusj]

With that in mind, do we really have room or time to continue the Christianity movement in our time? IT really takes up to much time in our busy life just to keep up with it, all the Sundayz, all the time spent volunteering at the Church fund raisers, all the church outings. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

mykil - Its really much worse than that. If I understand it correctly (unlikely), you have to do it ALL the time to EVERYBODY. I have to (try to) love Bush, Cheney, Dobson and etc and etc all the time along with everybody else. And I always thought Christianity was the easy way out. I can do the Sundayz and the Bible studies and the prayer groups and the potlucks and the whatevers, but if I do them without love, they're nothing, 1 Corinthians 13. Ouch.
In love. Jared

[dreyfusj]

his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's 'Life of Apollonius'.

I googled around a bit and found a good deal of material on Appollonius, but not the details you mention. Everything I did find (e.g. https://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2006/12/richard-purtill-on-fantastic-element.html ) suggests a story and provenance rather different that Jesus'

insulting to the billions who don't see this "indisputable" fact as being true and have the temerity to believe in other gods

Well, I prefaced my observation with "if true", so the billions that don't believe it don't have to bother with it. However, I submit that "if true", the Gospel story of a direct intervention into the affairs of men by God is pretty important. Of course, if it isn't true it's either less than nothing or something much worse.


for whom the evidence is every bit as good (or bad) as the evidence for Jesus.

This is the point we keep not getting to, i.e., the quality of the evidence for Jesus, but we've got time.


I did give Him (sic) a chance, Jared, for years. "He" didn't work.

In all seriousness and sincerity I would be interested in knowing how He failed you.


I'll believe you're not misogynistic when you induct a goddess of equal power into your pantheon.

Above my paygrade I'm afraid. There is much I don't understand about God, the issue of the treatment of women among them, but I don't find my confusion very surprising. I sometimes equate God revealing Himself to me with me attempting to explain quantum physics to my dog.

In love. Jared

[dreyfusj]

Explore your own religion or belief system and see what it has to tell you about how to live today on this planet. What are the ethical guidelines and how can you live/embody them? Don't waste your precious life energy trying to disprove a different belief.


I think Christ is telling me to live on this planet as an embodiment of, and vehicle for the expression of, His love. And He loves everybody. All the time. How am I doing on "living/embodying" this notion ? Not so well. Better than I used to, certainly. I can see both progress and a very long way to go.

[Dixon]

...Don't waste your precious life energy trying to disprove a different belief.

It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything; it's about seeking truth. That necessarily involves using some kind of reasonable standards to distinguish what's likely to be true from what isn't, which leads to proving/disproving various beliefs, but I'm not attached to any particular belief being true or false; I'm only attached to the search for truth itself. People who are rigidly defended around their closed-minded beliefs will experience that process as some kind of personal attack.


Be the best agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever, you can be.

That sounds like a good, tolerant idea until we look at it a little closer. The problem is that being the best Christian one can be has, in various times and places, involved treating women as second class citizens, treating gays and lesbians as subhuman monsters, waging holy wars to spread the gospel at the expense of many thousands of innocent lives, torturing people to death, burning books and heretics, engaging in genocide, defending slavery, twisting innocent children into repressive anti-intellectual prudes, etc. etc. Furthermore, most of these horrors didn't result from misinterpretation of the Bible; the Bible more or less explicitly endorses nearly all these brutalities.

The same principle holds true to varying degrees for most if not all of the major religions. Twenty million African women have been subjected to grotesque genital mutilation by their loved ones who are trying to be the best Muslims they can be, not to mention millions of males subjected to less extreme genital mutilation by people trying to be the best Jews they can be. When was the last time you heard of an atheist mutilating some child's genitals? Hindus and Muslims slaughtering each other, Protestants and Catholics slaughtering each other, women burned alive on their husbands' funeral pyres, all for religious reasons.

Many, maybe most, of these atrocities would not be happening if people weren't trying to be the best Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/whatever they can be. Sad but true. Here's a relevant quote: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
--Steven Weinberg

And here's a link to a short relevant article about a recent poll in which 42% of Brits polled endorsed Richard Dawkins' quote: "Faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate."

https://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/899

Blessings;
Dixon

[wolfcarnahan]

Truth is a relative thing, especially when one seeks "universal truth" or "spiritual truth". After teaching for 42 years, Buddha, on his death bed, said, "I have searched, but I have not found".

Regardless of what path one takes, Spiritual truth only exists as something that works for the individual. Regardless, also, of what we think, one can never fathom the "truth" that drives the existance of the Universe". THe Mind of God, whatever that is, can never be known by humans. I believe we're really fortunate to percieve what little of the universe and truth that we do.

Whether someone exsisted, or not, is also a nebulous thing. There were several people named Jesus around that time. One lived with the Essenes, one studied with the Brahmen in India, One studied Buddhism, and another was called "the Christ", who's name was actually Joshua ben Joseph. Were they one, and the same?

Osiris, the great God of Egyptian mythology was said to be myth, until they found a sarcophagus under the sphinx that bore his name and inscriptions of his life.

So maybe some people actually existed, but it was other people, MANY years later that wrote about what they said and did. Who can say where THAT truth lies?

Blessings
Wolf




[quote=Dixon;28504]It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything; it's about seeking truth. That necessarily involves using some kind of reasonable standards to distinguish what's likely to be true from what isn't, which leads to proving/disproving various beliefs, but I'm not attached to any particular belief being true or false; I'm only attached to the search for truth itself. People who are rigidly defended around their closed-minded beliefs will experience that process as some kind of personal attack.

[Sara S]

It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything; it's about seeking truth. That necessarily involves using some kind of reasonable standards to distinguish what's likely to be true from what isn't, which leads to proving/disproving various beliefs, but I'm not attached to any particular belief being true or false; I'm only attached to the search for truth itself. People who are rigidly defended around their closed-minded beliefs will experience that process as some kind of personal attack.



That sounds like a good, tolerant idea until we look at it a little closer. The problem is that being the best Christian one can be has, in various times and places, involved treating women as second class citizens, treating gays and lesbians as subhuman monsters, waging holy wars to spread the gospel at the expense of many thousands of innocent lives, torturing people to death, burning books and heretics, engaging in genocide, defending slavery, twisting innocent children into repressive anti-intellectual prudes, etc. etc. Furthermore, most of these horrors didn't result from misinterpretation of the Bible; the Bible more or less explicitly endorses nearly all these brutalities.

In the interest of seeking truth, even though I'm intimidated by your brilliance and I haven't had my coffee yet, I must respond here; for me, being the best Christian one can be would mean following the teachings and life of Jesus of Nazareth, with an open mind to the idea (not endorsed by many who label themselves Christian) that the man may not have been perfectly consistent, and that he may have been a bit mentally bedraggled by the (reported) horrors of the end of his time here. I do grant that most people who call themselves Christian do not accept this as a definition of one.



The same principle holds true to varying degrees for most if not all of the major religions. Twenty million African women have been subjected to grotesque genital mutilation by their loved ones who are trying to be the best Muslims they can be, not to mention millions of males subjected to less extreme genital mutilation by people trying to be the best Jews they can be. When was the last time you heard of an atheist mutilating some child's genitals? Hindus and Muslims slaughtering each other, Protestants and Catholics slaughtering each other, women burned alive on their husbands' funeral pyres, all for religious reasons.
What about Buddhism?

I don't really consider Buddhism a "religion" as much as a way of life, but I can't think of any examples of murder or mutilation done by Buddhists, except for some suicides in protest of widespread horrors.



Many, maybe most, of these atrocities would not be happening if people weren't trying to be the best Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/whatever they can be. Sad but true. Here's a relevant quote: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
--Steven Weinberg


This quote seems confusing to me, since, to me, one cannot be a "good" person if one does "evil" things. The quote wouldn't be so succinct if his terms were defined, but maybe he means "people who call themselves 'good' according to the (perhaps) twisted and misinterpreted beliefs that have resulted from centuries of various self-serving translations" of some belief system.

Sara S.

[Tars]

Regardless of what path one takes, Spiritual truth only exists as something that works for the individual. Regardless, also, of what we think, one can never fathom the "truth" that drives the existance of the Universe". THe Mind of God, whatever that is, can never be known by humans. I believe we're really fortunate to percieve what little of the universe and truth that we do.

AMEN!

[mykil]

Is it relevant or is it just legend? Well hell!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I have put allot of thought into this over the years and alwayz seem to come up with the same answer. It really doesn’t matter whom I am praying to as long as I am praying and not out killing people. The teachings are good, no matter what faith you are into at this time. You are taught at a young age that killing or harming someone will come back to haunt you and this is all good! I think after a certain age we all need to wake up and smell the coffee, there is no Santa, there is no Easter bunny there is no… To me there is no difference between God and big foot at this point in my life. Both seem to me to be legends. There is nothing better than a good legion; I have made up a few my self at times to scare my lovely children into doing something good [go to sleep or the floor monkey will get into your brain and densify you].
<o:p></o:p>
On the other hand if there are one billion people praying to god every day, does this make him real? This is a far more challenging question to me in general. I mean that is allot of energy being put up in the air or out in the world at any given time, is this our protection from harm in general? My evolution is a rather strange one I believe. I no longer believe in god as the ruler of all eternity, yet I believe in an extremely powerful energy that has a control over us all. Half the peeps on this planet pray to some sort of god. What might happen if no one ever prayed, would we still be here? Would our world even exist?

[nurturetruth]

I feel that we live in a post-modern relative culture of no absolute truths, because our theories are founded on many things, thus at the end of the day , these are merely human constructions, ideas approximating reality, but not absolute truth.

Experience alone can decide on truth;

however...what one perceives, observes, feels or interprets....are all "truth". Your truth is important!! Yet, it is not "The Truth"...

instead of proclaiming or getting hung up on finding "The Truth", why not just discover and nurture "a truth"?!

Truth in matters of religion, is simply "the opinion" that has survived....in my humble opinion..of course!

REMEMBER!!
"Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it! Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."


"In a closed mind, the truth is no match for a good fantasy.
In an open mind, even the grandest fantasy is no match for the truth."


When God was creating the Universe where did his/her/it's Mind come from?

What was his/her/it's True Self at the moment of Creation?

Does God have Mind or Self?

If so, what, exactly, is the “Mind” and “Self” of God? And, where did they come from? :hmmm:

If no, how is Reality possible?

(( we are all God'(s)/ Goddesses?! WE are the mind of God?! ))

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/northpole.jpg

[dreyfusj]

When was the last time you heard of an atheist mutilating some child's genitals?


While I agree completely that every conceivable atrocity has been carried out in the name of religion, including mine, I have to note that the really spectacular crimes, at least of the 20th Century, were committed by atheists, e.g., the Nazis (6 million killed not counting the war dead), the Stalinists, (tens of millions dead "liquidating the kulaks" and or sent into the gulags to die) and the Chinese Communists, again tens of millions dead in the name of "The People".

[Clancy]

While I agree completely that every conceivable atrocity has been carried out in the name of religion, including mine, I have to note that the really spectacular crimes, at least of the 20th Century, were committed by atheists, e.g., the Nazis (6 million killed not counting the war dead), the Stalinists, (tens of millions dead "liquidating the kulaks" and or sent into the gulags to die)



Stalin had a thorough christian upbringing. Not only did he go to a christian school, he spent five years in seminary after graduating.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=stalin+seminary&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


And Hitler and the Nazis' christianity is well known, myriad history books have been written on the christian influence in the Nazi's development.
https://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[lifequest]

Stalin had a thorough christian upbringing. Not only did he go to a christian school, he spent five years in seminary after graduating.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=stalin+seminary&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


And Hitler and the Nazis' christianity is well known, myriad history books have been written on the christian influence in the Nazi's development.
https://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

One comment regarding Hitler's supposed Christianity.. both he and the Nazi elite felt Christianity was a corrupting influence on the German people. They were aware of the Jewish roots of Christianity and feared its historic power. Germany operated under a State religion at the time (Lutheranism I believe) which made fertile ground for an alternative authoritarian belief system. Even though I have virtually no relatives left thanks to that madness, I cannot find any blame with true Christianity for those heinous crimes.

Stalin was a seminarian but again the system he learned was put to evil ends by a devious twisted personality. I don't know if Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist but if so, no one should blame that faith for the mass murder committed in Cambodia.

[Clancy]

I cannot find any blame with true Christianity for those heinous crimes.

Of course not, but the point is, they weren't athiests.

Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
https://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[Dixon]

...the Nazis (6 million killed not counting the war dead), the Stalinists, (tens of millions dead "liquidating the kulaks" and or sent into the gulags to die) and the Chinese Communists, again tens of millions dead in the name of "The People".

Re: the Nazis--mighty funny atheists, goose-stepping around with "Gott mitt uns" (God with us) inscribed on their uniforms. Here are a couple of relevant quotes from one Adolph Hitler:

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air…"

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

But here's a bigger genocide than that perpetrated by the Nazis: the genocide of the indigenous peoples of the "Americas". Within 100 years of Columbus' arrival, about 100 million Indians--approximately 95% of the population--had been killed, many of them explicitly in the name of Jesus (or his Daddy). This dwarfs the atrocities of the Commies. Sure, many of the Indians died from European-borne plagues, but sometimes those plagues were purposely spread by the pious Christian invaders (such as when they gave the Indians smallpox-infected blankets), and the whites commonly thanked God even for the Indian-killing plagues they didn't start on purpose. For example, King James of England gave thanks to "Almighty God in His great goodness and bounty towards us" for sending "this wonderful plague among the salvages (sic)".

From Columbus on, torture, rape, slavery, murder and every imaginable atrocity were perpetrated explicitly in God's name. Here's a quote from Columbus himself:

"We can send from here, in the name of the Holy Trinity, all the slaves and brazil-wood which could be sold .... one Indian is worth three Negroes."

And, lest we comfort ourself with the false presumption that such brutalities were predicated on misinterpretations of scripture, understand that Christian scripture (among many other kinds) is explicitly bigoted and brutal.

For instance, do you wonder why we have such a brutal, warlike world? Here's a clue: Once upon a time, some people were minding their own business when a warlike tribe sent some spies to infiltrate their city. After causing the city's defensive wall to fall down, the warlike tribe invaded, razing the city, slaughtering every man, woman, child and animal (except the family that had helped the spies), and stealing the precious oils, spices, jewels, etc. This is the Biblical story of Joshua and the "Battle" of Jericho, and the murdering, thieving, warlike tribe are presented as the good guys! The Bible's message is clear: If you have convinced yourself that God is on your side, you can justify doing absolutely anything to anybody. Every time the glorious American Empire invades another country, slaughters their people and steals their resources, understand that this is Christianity in action. Praise the Lord!

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

Blessings;

Dixon, Atheist Angel

[Yahweh]

I have been called upon to observe this Wacco Thread from all angles and dimensions. I know ..I know... "oh god!"

I just hold 1 question:

What happened to the thread of " discussing my mind? "

Hitler, Stalin, and every man who used a form of violence in my name were of me, but NOT me. Just because a heineous act is done in my name, does NOT mean I gave the stamp of approvel on it!

In fact, I neither disapprove nor approve of such tragic heineous acts. Who am I to judge?
All I did was help create ya...the rest is up to YOU!

besides..it is all as it should be

All I can do is continue to observe & keep sending potential lessons in hopes that one day...we will all discover peace..

Love,

GOD

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/1001_0658.jpg

[Carl]

Re: the Nazis--mighty funny atheists, goose-stepping around with "Gott mitt uns" (God with us) inscribed on their uniforms.......

For instance, do you wonder why we have such a brutal, warlike world? Here's a clue: Once upon a time, some people were minding their own business when a warlike tribe sent some spies to infiltrate their city. After causing the city's defensive wall to fall down, the warlike tribe invaded, razing the city, slaughtering every man, woman, child and animal (except the family that had helped the spies), and stealing the precious oils, spices, jewels, etc. This is the Biblical story of Joshua and the "Battle" of Jericho, and the murdering, thieving, warlike tribe are presented as the good guys! The Bible's message is clear: If you have convinced yourself that God is on your side, you can justify doing absolutely anything to anybody. Every time the glorious American Empire invades another country, slaughters their people and steals their resources, understand that this is Christianity in action. Praise the Lord!

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

Blessings;

Dixon, Atheist Angel

Dixon,

I swear, if you are going to quote God's word, at least do not ascribe the ancient version of the Biblical Testament to his/her son called Jesus. Unless you are arguing that, since, as it is said, "he was before Abraham", then he is responsible for Joshua attacking Jericho. That does not follow. I don't think we can argue that Jesus was a leader of war. I always think of him as the peaceful leader, you know the one who turned the other cheek.

And I apologize for swearing, but at least I didn't take the Lord's name in vain. Or did I?

Everything else you said was right on the money. But if rejecting the idea of God and becoming an atheist is your solution to this angst, it may be that is comparable to no longer using the term "Human Being" to describe yourself just because humans seem to lack sentience and presence sometimes. Suppose, for example, that ancient homo sapiens actually crually did away with Neanderthal Man, as an unsuitable living partner. A bloodthirsty and fearful act, yes. Self-negating, no.

[nanclee]

Great post,god IS about love and lessons and humor:):


I have been called upon to observe this Wacco Thread from all angles and dimensions. I know ..I know... "oh god!"

I just hold 1 question:

What happened to the thread of " discussing my mind? "

Hitler, Stalin, and every man who used a form of violence in my name were of me, but NOT me. Just because a heineous act is done in my name, does NOT mean I gave the stamp of approvel on it!

In fact, I neither disapprove nor approve of such tragic heineous acts. Who am I to judge? All I did was help create ya...the rest is up to YOU!

besides..it is all as it should be

All I can do is continue to observe and keep sending potential lessons in hopes that one day...we will all discover peace....

GOD

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/1001_0658.jpg

[Dixon]

Dixon, I swear, if you are going to quote God's word, at least do not ascribe the ancient version of the Biblical Testament to his/her son called Jesus.

I don't think I ascribed anything to Jesus; I'm not even sure he really existed. I was talking about Christianity, a term which encompasses many beliefs and activites good, bad and neutral. Christianity is not the same thing as Jesus at all.


Unless you are arguing that, since, as it is said, "he was before Abraham", then he is responsible for Joshua attacking Jericho.

Actually, Carl, now that you mention it, that seems like a plausible argument. If, as most Christians believe, Jesus is just one aspect of the god who created and rules the universe, then he (Jesus) may arguably share responsibility for the brutalities of the Old Testament.


I don't think we can argue that Jesus was a leader of war. I always think of him as the peaceful leader, you know the one who turned the other cheek.

The scripture seems contradictory on this. Note this quote, attributed to Jesus: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." (from Matthew, chapter 10, NASB translation). There is considerable controversy re: how to interpret this; Jesus (if he really said this at all) could have been speaking metaphorically. Like so many Biblical quotes, it's vague enough to be interpreted according to one's own biases.

But even if we assume that Jesus' message was a consistently peaceful one, all Christian sects that I know of accept the quite brutal and warlike Old Testament as holy scripture. Typical Christian teachings on this issue are confused. As a fundamentalist, I was taught that the Old Testament teachings, while God's inerrant Word, were superceded by Jesus' gospel of peace--a self-contradictory position, of course.

Keeping in mind that I'm talking about Christianity and not the (possibly mythical) Jesus, my main point here is that conservative Christians are consistently among the loudest, most vehement supporters of various brutalities such as war, slavery, sexism, imperialism, homophobia and capital punishment (all in keeping with Old Testament teachings), and that therefore those who would offer conservative Christianity as a moral model are implicitly endorsing those brutalities as moral.

I do recognize the good work of the more progressive sects of Christianity (and Islam, and Judaism, etc.) and therefore don't wish to paint all believers with the same brush. However, since even progressive believers accept superstitious beliefs (God, angels, the afterlife, etc.), they implicitly validate the notion that it's morally responsible to accept things on "faith", which in this context means believing whatever meets your needs regardless of evidence, thus empowering the conservative bigots to believe their noxious crapola with no possibliity of being corrected by reason.


But if rejecting the idea of God and becoming an atheist is your solution to this angst...

My atheism is not a solution to any angst; it's just an honest recognition of the fact that I have yet to find even one compelling argument for the existence of any supernatural entity (including any god), and that therefore, such ideas are probably mythical. The arguments I used to accept as proof of god were shown, upon further study of logic and evidence, to be fallacious.

Blessings;

Dixon

[Clancy]

My atheism is not a solution to any angst; it's just an honest recognition of the fact that I have yet to find even one compelling argument for the existence of any supernatural entity (including any god), and that therefore, such ideas are probably mythical.


And i commend you for your honesty and unflinching quest for truth.

It's entirely possible that we can't even conceive of the true nature of reality, or what we might call God, due to the limitations of our senses and cognitive abilities. There may be realms of existance that we will never know of. That's a very uncomfortable prospect for many of us, thinking we understand the world gives a lot of comfort.

I waver between agnosticism and a belief in an undefinable God because I've found it has beneficial effects. Can I prove God exists? Of course not. Is life lived as if God exists beneficial? In my case, yes, and I've seen various studies over the years that have shown that people who believe in 'God' tend to live longer, healthier, more satisfying lives, especially those who combine their faith with meditation.

So, I think there's compelling reasons to act as if God exists, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.

I also think there's compelling reasons to ban or outlaw organized religion/s, and there's lots of evidence to support that, as we've seen in this thread.

[Dixon]

And i commend you for your honesty and unflinching quest for truth.

Thank you, Clancy! Not everyone is as kind to us atheists, who are just about the most discriminated-against minority in the USA--more than Jews, women, Muslims, gays and lesbians, or even straight white males :^)


It's entirely possible that we can't even conceive of the true nature of reality, or what we might call God, due to the limitations of our senses and cognitive abilities. There may be realms of existance that we will never know of.

All that's entirely true, though I trust that, unlike some folks, you're savvy enough to know that none of it constitutes good reason to assert the existence of a "God".


Thinking we understand the world gives a lot of comfort.

Yes, I think that's one reason people invented gods (and associated beliefs)--to give them the comforting illusion that we understand the world more than we do.


I waver between agnosticism and a belief in an undefinable God because I've found it has beneficial effects. Can I prove God exists? Of course not. Is life lived as if God exists beneficial? In my case, yes, and I've seen various studies over the years that have shown that people who believe in 'God' tend to live longer, healthier, more satisfying lives, especially those who combine their faith with meditation.
So, I think there's compelling reasons to act as if God exists, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.

Yes, indeed--a substantial body of research shows that people who can deceive themselves in various ways have less anxiety and depression than those who don't do so. Often these self-deceptions take the form of unrealistically high self-assessments (such as thinking we're much better at our job than we really are), but god-belief has been shown to have similar benefits. Every continuing behavior has some kind of benefit or it wouldn't continue.

So we can make a pragmatic case for god-belief (IF we ignore its negative correlates--see below) even while recognizing that, in the absence of good evidence, the belief is probably superstitious. However, let me point out that, for a society to maximize its survival chances, a substantial number of its members must deny themselves the comfort of sweet illusions in favor of looking at ugly, scary, uncertain realities. A society that puts its faith in a (probably nonexistent) god is a society that will address its problems superstitiously rather than rationally, thus decreasing the chance that the problems will be solved.

Example 1: The people of Te pito o te henua (Easter Island) apparently substantially destroyed their ecosystem largely because they cut down all their trees in an effort to propitiate their gods. When found by Europeans, the few survivors were eking out a minimal existence, though they'd had a relatively advanced culture before their religious beliefs motivated them to screw up their home.

Example 2: My mom, like millions of folks, refuses to take much responsibility for the serious problems facing our planet because she expects Jesus to come riding out of the sky like the cavalry (Calvary?) at the last minute to save us from the consequences of our folly.

Example 3: Presumably we'd be better off if the time, energy and $$ we waste on addressing our problems superstitiously (through praying, ritualizing and otherwise propitiating gods) were used more reasonably.

So you go ahead and believe what makes you feel good, Clancy (and everyone). We atheists will continue to take on the necessary task of seeing reality as clearly as we can, even at the cost of accepting some anxiety, insecurity, and depression.


I also think there's compelling reasons to ban or outlaw organized religion/s...

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I believe strongly in people's right to believe as they wish. On the other hand, religion is the source of so much bigotry, irrationality and violence that we could make a case for banning it (as if that were possible).

That case becomes even stronger when we consider the fraudulent nature of the claims religions use to keep the suckers tossing their $$ into the collection plate. Claims of the ultimate reward (Heaven) and the ultimate punishment (Hell), which are unverifiable because you have to die to find out if they're true, constitute one of the most cynically diabolical--and effective--frauds ever known.

On top of the obvious religious sources of things like homophobia and misogyny, there are a number of studies which correlate religiosity with various nasty things. For instance, here's a relevant quote from "Religious Belief and Societal Health", a review of a recent major research study, from "Skeptic" magazine, vol. 12, #3: "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies."

And when we factor in the various surveys that show that many clergy don't even believe the claims they're making, the fraudulent nature of most religion becomes undeniable. So, outlaw religion? I admit it's tempting, though doomed to failure.

Blessings!

Dixon

[Tars]

I think there's compelling reasons to act as if God exists, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.
Exactly how I see the universe Clancy.


Do be do be do... .


It's unimportant whether when we physically die we sit on a cloud with a bearded dude for eternity, or just return to the infinity of atoms. What is important is that we try to be the person we think is the best we can attain, while we do unto others as we'd have them do to us. We just can't attain better than that. And if someone else wants to have a list of "commandments" to guide them, why that's just fine. Just don't try to force feed them to me!


I also think there's compelling reasons to ban or outlaw organized religion/s, and there's lots of evidence to support that, as we've seen in this thread.Can't see it'd be beneficial or realistic to ban organized religions. they keep a lot of people happy, and functionally sane. But..."everything in moderation..."

[Nirmala]

To all the seekers out there. There are more alternatives than the eternalist option such as going to heaven forever or the nilistic option where we are reduced to atoms or nothing. There is the Middle Way.

And yes, how we live our lives is very important, to be the best we can be and do the best we can do and do unto others as we would have others do to us. Once, we live in an ethical way then we can learn to develop our minds and realize some calm and tranquility. Then with the mind concentrated we can realize some wisdom. It takes a lot of work and a light heart, letting go of judgments, and some patience and compassion. But it can be done.

Questions like what is god or what is truth, or how can be be the best human being are good beginning for an investigation.

Nirmala

[Barry]

Thanks for chiming in again, Nirmala! Your words conveyed a lovely sense of grace, of trusting in the divine...

Anybody else, especially you lurkers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurker) (if you are not familiar with the term please click on that link!) care to join the discussion? Please share what's rings true for you!


To all the seekers out there. There are more alternatives than the eternalist option such as going to heaven forever or the nihilistic option where we are reduced to atoms or nothing. There is the Middle Way....

[nurturetruth]

Thanks Nirmala !

Perhaps consciousness, not matter, is the foundation of everything that is.

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/__hr_Love2020the20Birth20of20a20Uni.jpg

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/TEMP1-2.jpg

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/nurturetruth/truth.gif




To all the seekers out there. There are more alternatives than the eternalist option such as going to heaven forever or the nilistic option where we are reduced to atoms or nothing. There is the Middle Way.

And yes, how we live our lives is very important, to be the best we can be and do the best we can do and do unto others as we would have others do to us. Once, we live in an ethical way then we can learn to develop our minds and realize some calm and tranquility. Then with the mind concentrated we can realize some wisdom. It takes a lot of work and a light heart, letting go of judgments, and some patience and compassion. But it can be done.

Questions like what is god or what is truth, or how can be be the best human being are good beginning for an investigation.

Nirmala

[Diablo]

Questions like what is god or what is truth, or how can be be the best human being are good beginning for an investigation.

Nirmala


BARRY IS GOD!

it finally came to me.
BARRY IS GOD!

Barry has set up this little paradise for us all, called WaccoBB
he watches over us 24 hours a day.
he follows me when I am reading a thread, he notes how long I am online and how long I am away from my Wacco friends.
he's always there for me
BARRY IS GOD!
he protects us from evil, for he will ban any one who doesn't say what he wants us to hear, but he still makes sure that all his GOOD friends get to say what they want
he tries to make us feel good with his support
he writes:"I like your beautiful post" or "thanks for chiming in"

Barry ALWAYS tells the truth.
BARRY IS GOD!

I feel safe, because BARRY IS GOD!
he can delete us from temptation

so have some courtesy
have some sympathy
use all your politesse
for he can lay your soul to waste

BARRY *IS* GOD

[Sonomamark]

Uh...WHAT evidence? And please, don't cite that cobbled-together, many-times edited for completely political purposes collection of ancient superstition, "the bible". That's not evidence. it's not even history. It's just self-serving narrative written by guys who wanted to justify their behavior.

Beyond that, let's say for argument's sake that what you say actually happened. Even if this dead guy rose, the most likely explanation is that he wasn't really dead--just comatose. Happened all the time until modern medicine figured out how to make sure people were dead. And he's surely dead again by now. But even if not: what possible difference could Zombie Jesus of the Living Dead having staggered up out of the Big Black two thousand years ago make to our modern lives?

To believe that kind of event makes any difference, you have to believe in original sin and a bunch of other pretty...well, fringe-y stuff, from a rational standpoint. And I don't. So: Zombie Jesus lurches from the grave: what difference does it make to me? None at all.

Sounds like your idea of "reasonable intelligence" could use some calibration.


And here I thought I had merely used a reasonable intelligence to follow credible evidence and overcome a lifetime of training in atheism/agnosticism to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again.

[Dixon]

Hey, Roble;

Regarding your recent post on this thread which was apparently deleted from the site: While I cannot endorse your rather juvenile use of shock and gross-out as a constructive response to a controversy, I must admit I got a hearty laugh out of it.

However, I must object to your use of the term "horny gutter slut" as a pejorative. If you're so afflicted with prudishness that you think being horny or a slut is bad, you haven't entirely purged yourself of the shame-based religious values you ridicule.

Atheist blessings!

Dixon

[Valley Oak]

Dixon,

I agree with your razor sharp observation.

And that was not the only one of my submissions that was censored.

Edward



Hey, Roble;

Regarding your recent post on this thread which was apparently deleted from the site: While I cannot endorse your rather juvenile use of shock and gross-out as a constructive response to a controversy, I must admit I got a hearty laugh out of it.

However, I must object to your use of the term "horny gutter slut" as a pejorative. If you're so afflicted with prudishness that you think being horny or a slut is bad, you haven't entirely purged yourself of the shame-based religious values you ridicule.

Atheist blessings!

Dixon

[Tars]

And that was not the only one of my submissions that was censored.

I've had a post censored as well - at least one, I haven't been counting. Maybe others were edited, I'm not sure. No namecalling involved, no hate spew. But still deletion. Possibly it's a political-correctness thing, like in China. It makes me very unhappy when that happens.

[GiGi]

you see, there must be a GOD then,
for only GOD knows what is right or wrong..................

GiGi

ps,

if you haven't been censored yet, you haven't had anything to say!
right Barry?!




I've had a post censored as well - at least one, I haven't been counting. Maybe others were edited, I'm not sure. No namecalling involved, no hate spew. But still deletion. Possibly it's a political-correctness thing, like in China. It makes me very unhappy when that happens.

[paulrankin]

what was the question Rodney King asked?


Rodney King asked a profound question. Profound because it can be applied so widely.

Tars
https://www.rpriddle.com/webpix/churchsign.jpg

[Dixon]

you see, there must be a GOD then,
for only GOD knows what is right or wrong.

I suppose it would be pointless to explicate the obvious fallaciousness of that "logic"; those who don't already see it probably don't want to.

Anyway, I suspect "GiGi" posted it not to make a reasoned argument, but to try to stir up a little tempest. Something smells funny here; smells like a giant prick. GiGi, follow God's commandment "Thou shalt not lie" and tell us--Are you ThePhiant?

Dixon

[nurturetruth]

"We can accept God becoming Man to save man, but not Man becoming God to save himself' - Vernon Howard


happy ascending!! :heart:
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I suppose it would be pointless to explicate the obvious fallaciousness of that "logic"; those who don't already see it probably don't want to.

Anyway, I suspect "GiGi" posted it not to make a reasoned argument, but to try to stir up a little tempest. Something smells funny here; smells like a giant prick. GiGi, follow God's commandment "Thou shalt not lie" and tell us--Are you ThePhiant?

Dixon

[GiGi]

Dixon, is it pointless for an avowed atheist like yourself to explicate the obvious fallaciousness in your logic to crown yourself a deity and in the same breath quote "God's commandment; "thou shall not lie"?

despite your puerile, phallic pontification, not only do you quote the bible, but you indicate that the ten commandments came directly FROM God with your demand to "follow God's commandment "Thou shalt not lie" and tell us--Are you ThePhiant?"



I suppose it would be pointless to explicate the obvious fallaciousness of that "logic"; those who don't already see it probably don't want to.

Anyway, I suspect "GiGi" posted it not to make a reasoned argument, but to try to stir up a little tempest. Something smells funny here; smells like a giant prick. GiGi, follow God's commandment "Thou shalt not lie" and tell us--Are you ThePhiant?

Dixon

[GiGi]

maybe you are sincerely at a loss
but my post was in reference to people being censored
notably, diablo's post referring to Barry as god
that one was DELETED
or is it CENSORED?



I suppose it would be pointless to explicate the obvious fallaciousness of that "logic"; those who don't already see it probably don't want to.

Anyway, I suspect "GiGi" posted it not to make a reasoned argument, but to try to stir up a little tempest. Something smells funny here; smells like a giant prick. GiGi, follow God's commandment "Thou shalt not lie" and tell us--Are you ThePhiant?

Dixon