...
All that REALLY matters is our own individual perception of or about ourselves.
To imply or focus in on another as being untruthful , "filled with untruths", a liar or lying....
Is simply maybe just another way of distracting ourselves from choosing NOT to see where we ourselves may have been untrue or un-clear with either our own selves or another. ???
Yes, and no, and maybe.
There's a Taoist exercise (translated by Thomas Cleary as) "turning the light of understanding around," which I try to remember to practice when I catch myself judging someone. I think it means that when I see another's defects, the most useful thing I can do for my own spiritual growth is to ask myself the following question: Have I ever done that? (the answer is almost always "yes"). This allows me to stop judging them, and to shine that light of understanding where it can do some good.
On a more relative plane, though, deceit and meanness deserves sequestration from a public forum.
"Mad" Miles
03-30-2007, 09:50 PM
[quote=Sara S;27194...There's a Taoist exercise (translated by Thomas Cleary as) "turning the light of understanding around," which I try to remember to practice when I catch myself judging someone. I think it means that when I see another's defects, the most useful thing I can do for my own spiritual growth is to ask myself the following question: Have I ever done that? (the answer is almost always "yes"). This allows me to stop judging them, and to shine that light of understanding where it can do some good...[/quote]
Hey Sara S., Everybody,
I like the Taoist exercise you relate. I just have one big honkin' problem.
In my new teaching job my students are prisoners serving time in the oldest State Prison in Cali. So, in fact, if I were to ask the question (to myself as instructed, I ain't no fool!), in many many instances the answer would be No.
Or in a few petty and youthful indiscretion cases, yes ... But I'm reformed!!! I tell ya! It's a frameup!! I never even seen that guy!!!! That's not mine and I don't know how it got here!?!?!? Where's my lawyer!!!!!!
I'm still working on wrapping my head around the consequences and permutations of my new gig. Could take a while. (Forever?)
I'm not permitted to publicly write about it in any detail while working there. (Wha, wha, wha...) But one thing I can recount is my reminder yesterday that many of my future students intentionally violate their parole. So they can be put somewhere they can get food, shelter, clothing and a "safe" place to "sleep."
I knew this conceptually but it's another thing to talk to a guy who did it through the security bars of his "house."
Who else read the income disparity statistics in yesterday's paper? We are now at the same gap between the rich and the poor as the GREAT DEPRESSION!!!!
Back to the subject of this thread. I will probably sound disingenuous, given my "tangential" role (Sic.) in it's initiation. But is anyone else feeling a little sick to death hearing (OK reading) about it?
Speaking of disparities within a group. Does anyone have a good theory about lag time between OCDC internet junkies like myself and the sane folks who only check their email every few days (instead of two to four times a day like us sickos) so your/their participation in the diss concussion is echoey?
B Guy, any way to track this with your magic ball from behind the screen?
(And apologies for mounting a putsch on your moderating role... Like I want it? Hah!)
I take little satisfaction in DePhiant's expulsion. I would be truly disengenous if I said I would miss ter. As for this thread, it has (note tense), as is often the case here on the wackybored* been an interesting and oft infuriating discussion.
*(Oh No! He's a T... Don't say anything, he'll eat!!)
But, I'm much more concerned about dealing with the consequences of Jeremiah Chass's killing (My apologies to his family for misspelling your name with zz's recently), and the War, and the rumored (some would say confirmed) impending assault on Iran. (I read a radical list email a couple of days ago in which a Russian security expert claims the launch day is April 6.)
"Frankly dear, our troubles don't amount to a hill of beans."
(No detail memory, paraphrased from possibly the greatest film ever made. Bogie is the Bomb! Cept for the cigarette thing.)
I want to say that there is a real world out there/here full of suffering. We can and should do whatever we can within our own scope and with each other via our collective scope to do something, anything, everything to fix it.
I also like a good party, dancing, well written and staged narratives about the intricacies of being human, good food, the intimate company of women (in my case, whatever floats your boat, wets your wick or .... place your favorite euphemism for "The Nasty" / Lovemaking here _________ ) You get my babble.
And yeah, I've "heard" all about illusion, attachment and consciousness.
How you perceive things effects what you think is possible. It does not create your entire reality. Motivation, willingness to work and defer gratification, planning, organization are all consequent to the idea.
But if some of the things said here were true, we would all be floating around in our own little solipsistic bubbles, happy campers with nothing to do but enjoy the ride. Sounds nice. I guess sometimes the bubbles could bounce into each other, but wouldn't they burst?
There is a material world. We are part of it. We effect it, it affects and effects us. We are interdependent beings existing, while physically alive, in a social network of ideas, myths, institutions, accumulated habits, internalized roles (which we externalize in concrete ways that affect others doing the same thing.) Those concrete ways are buildings, streets, machines, gardens, farms, factories, schools, hospitals, sewers, prisons, churches and so on. They're also the rules and regs, procedures and processes that we inherit, impose, accept, tweak, reform, revolt against, endure, resist, you name it.
We are living biological beings with something we call "consciousness" surviving as the alpha-predators on the surface of planet Earth. Or in the case of perhaps the best of us, alpha-grazers. The biosphere/ecosystem is changed by how we eat, clothe, house, entertain and transport ourselves.
Yes, getting everyone to eat grains and vegetables instead of cows, etc. (plus grains and vegetables, oh yeah, I forgot Fruit! Yum!) would have to start with a change in consciousness, but it would only happen with a change in behavior.
While linked, they are not the same thing. And the relationship is complex, often random, and very tricky to grasp when all reasonable (there's that word again! Skeptical rationalists? In da House!!) parameters and factors are considered.
My main point being that if wishing were action we'd all be in heaven. Does this look like heaven to you? I can say, with more certainty than I normally claim, that the school where I teach is in no way similar to any concept of heaven that I am "aware" of! And I defy anyone to tell me that it is only because I don't have the right attitude or projection of my desires out into the "universe" to "manifest" heaven in Sank Went'n. (Stolen from a new friend, oh no, I've more in common with my students than I realized!? And since when did "creating it with ones hands" turn into "thinking/feeling/desiring/focusing enough to miraculously create it in the physical world"
If all is an illusion, whose illusion is it? And if we're all illusioning, who's doing the work to create the stuff I could bump into at five a.m. at seventy miles an hour and die very quickly taking a bunch of other people with me?
Ever see the end of "Aguirre: The Wrath of God" with Klaus Kinski? Now that's a graphic manifestation of the power of illusion and detached thought!!
"This river isn't real...that ship isn't real....Kaashuuunk! That arrow isn't real"
(The ship is up in the top of a tree, possibly tossed there by a hurricane, and the very long and very thick shafted arrow is "manifested" in his thigh.)
Just holding this space. (Don't keep me going!)
Yeah, he do go on. Thanks for letting me testify. And yeah, I know I'm preaching to the choir. So let's SING Sisters and Brothers!
Overindicators Anonymous Anyone? Except I no longer qualify! He's out!
Until Anon,
"Mad" and very tired Miles
:burngrnbounce:
I just love the bouncing green guy. Maybe I should change my "nom de keyboard"? Sometimes the flack that the "Mad" in "M"M's gets makes me wonder if I should take the target off my forehead. Thought of switching to "Mild" Miles, but that would be the quintessence of disingenenuous!!
Finally, for now: Think I like Big Words? Back in my aborted year in graduate school ya shoulda heard how I talked! I'd come across a word I didn't know, look for it in fairly substantial dictionaries, often not find it, and maybe track it down using Latin and Greek to English dictionaries.
(No I never studied the classic languages, a moderate handicap in the Philosophy/Theory game.)
I had LISTS! Still do, buried somewhere in a box.
Ahhh, the weekend.
:raindrops:
Rain is the only scientifically verifiable miracle that I see on a regular basis. Oh, and the nine month old girl's smile at Cesar's this afternoon.
(That place is expensive! But sometimes it's good to celebrate the impending first paycheck of a new job. Once you see the deductions your mood might not be as rosy....)
Juggledude
04-01-2007, 12:13 AM
And I defy anyone to tell me that it is only because I don't have the right attitude or projection of my desires out into the "universe" to "manifest" heaven in Sank Went'n.
Hey, Miles, it is only because you don't have the right attitude or projection of your desires out into the "universe" to "manifest" heaven in San Quentin.
You had to go and double dog dare, didn't you?
Truly, it might be argued that the viewpoint of the intentional parole violator has qualified the three squares and known structure of the big house as "heaven" in his book, who are you to judge or impose a value structure on an individualistic subjective experience?
I'm stuck on the 70mph 5am thing though, that's gotta be some unconscious manifestation being done deeper than we can see, or possibly just a big dose of "reality bites back", jury is still out.
I like the sleepy skeptic stream of consciousness thing you've been embarking upon lately, it's fun, and reminiscent of my drug induced youth. If I wasn't of the considered opinion that you are pissing in a cup on a regular basis for your current boss hog, I'd have to revise my opinions on what the lack of sleep can do for mental processes.
24 hour echo due to digest format wacco participation, ocdc balanced with life, yard work and chasing the almighty dollar, sigh, I'm tired again.
Ahhh, the weekend.
now now, you've been on an 8 month paid perpetual weekend my friend, you hardly qualify to embody the haloed third h in the expression of relief experienced by the long term wage slave of the sociocratic slave class elite who have but 52 short interludes from their servitude annually.
Royce
"Mad" Miles
04-01-2007, 07:02 AM
Hey you ball jockeying doodle!
"it is only because you don't have the right attitude or projection of your desires out into the "universe" to "manifest" heaven in San Quentin."
What part of "Goth Grunge Nightmare Fantasy" did you not get? It's just that only a very small, select and quite likely psychotic subset of the human race would find it pleasurable. (There I go judging!) And that's not the crowd I want to party with!!
"You had to go and double dog dare, didn't you?"
Took the bait didn't you? So simple, so very simple, even a .... (T.... Alert!)
"Truly, it might be argued that the viewpoint of the intentional parole violator has qualified the three squares and known structure of the big house as "heaven" in his book, who are you to judge or impose a value structure on an individualistic subjective experience?"
Uh... Dude, prison SUCKS. And it's breakfast and a bag lunch. I'd heard for years about the Big House. Now that I've seen the conditions close up, I can confirm the myth.
Thankfully I get to walk out the main gate four days a week, as long as I don't lose my ID... (Uh Oh, don't want to "make real by hand" that!)
"I'm stuck on the 70mph 5am thing though, that's gotta be some unconscious manifestation being done deeper than we can see, or possibly just a big dose of "reality bites back", jury is still out."
I'm honored to stand before your bench your Honor. Any chance of a reprieve? Have you no mercy?
"I like the sleepy skeptic stream of consciousness thing ... drug induced youth ... pissing in a cup ... boss hog ... revise my opinions ... lack of sleep can do for mental processes"
Well now. A lot to process here.
In Order: Merci Bien - Aha! That explains much! - So far no go but I did sign the paper. - Oh, the CO's would love you! - Never! - Try it, you might like it.
Except for the tweaked gut, aka gastrointestinal distress, that's just no fun at all, no matter how much I "center and focus."
Long story, Seabrook NVDA blockade 1980 buncha very sweet but a bit scattered retro-hippies from Austin (Yellow Rose Collective) tried to Love Bomb my best friend and me into not checking out the proto-nuclear fortress we all were planning to non-violently assault/swarm early the next morning. Suffice it to say that circling took on a slightly tainted meaning after that "group domination of the individual" experience. I'm getting over it, but it takes time .... Please be gentle.
"24 hour echo due to digest format wacco participation, ocdc balanced with life, yard work and chasing the almighty dollar, sigh, I'm tired again."
You have my solidarity, sympathy and empathy My Brother.
I do know how lucky I've been since mid-July to a fortnight past. Although, the anxiety of not having a job, and the frustration of my delayed career in education that started late anyway, my Bad, I had some detours during the credential studies, all of it, was no picnic. Also having five months to wonder if I really wanted to work in the "Colon of the Beast", no matter how good the money, the Bay view and the chance to get paid as a "do gooder" was an interesting exercise in mild anticipatory anxiety.
"now now, you've been on an 8 month paid perpetual weekend my friend, you hardly qualify to embody the haloed third h in the expression of relief experienced by the long term wage slave of the sociocratic slave class elite who have but 52 short interludes from their servitude annually."
"sociocratic"? Huh? May I hear it in another sentence? For the refrigerator Alex.
"haloed third h" Wha? Translation please?
By the way, for the record, my EDD funded involuntary sabbatical only lasted from October through March. At the front end I was living on my "lucrative" earnings from summer school. That's a sweet gig, five hours a day, four days a week, three weeks, one class of 15 - 30, $40 hard earned buckaroos a narn! (Farscape, see it.)
Hey, don't you know you can't teach an Ur-Slacker like myself old tricks? Why do you think I inserted "Wha, wha, wha" at regular intervals in my screed? Wasn't my preemptory contrition sufficient! What must I do to please such a demanding audience!!
Quit harshing my jokes Man!
From one contraire to another.
In All Fraternal (and Sororal for all you sisters in the land of wackabbies!) Affection.
May we dance and sing in spite of it all,
"Mildly Mad, Depending on the Lunar Phase and Other Variables" Miles
P.S. Regarding piss tests, Deponent Sayeth Further Not.
What's a "contraire" you might ask? Ever see "Little Big Man"? If not, your education is incomplete. That film helped shape my life! Ever meet, or hear of, the "Anger Man" in Berkeley in the early eighties on? Classic exemplar of the role. I been at it for quite a while, but many have sacrificed themselves for the collective in magnificent displays of social criticism for the betterment of us all. I just chip at it.
Dawn awakes and all is well in my solipsistic soap bubble....
:burngrnbounce:
I really do love him! He's so cute and bouncy, and really, honest, in writing this endnote I just realized that the fire that launches him into the air could be seen as burning farts!!!
Vet-To-Pet
04-01-2007, 11:51 AM
I like the Taoist exercise, which I've heard in various versions (when you point a finger at someone, there are four other fingers pointing back towards yourself, etc). My "method" of dealing with difficult situations/decisions has been to "Do the next right thing"....which might include apologizing to the other party(s). As long as I can truly feel as if "my side of the street" is clean, I believe I can sleep that night without any nagging questions. I don't even care if the other person/people feel as if an apology means they've "won". Obviously, if we haven't been able to discuss things to a conclusion that suits everyone, then they're not people I want to continue to associate with. I am responsible for ME, and above all, do no harm.
Smiles,
Paula/Vet-to-Pet
Yes, and no, and maybe.
There's a Taoist exercise (translated by Thomas Cleary as) "turning the light of understanding around," which I try to remember to practice when I catch myself judging someone. I think it means that when I see another's defects, the most useful thing I can do for my own spiritual growth is to ask myself the following question: Have I ever done that? (the answer is almost always "yes"). This allows me to stop judging them, and to shine that light of understanding where it can do some good.
On a more relative plane, though, deceit and meanness deserves sequestration from a public forum.
nurturetruth
04-01-2007, 11:52 PM
Thank you Sara for mentioning the Tao excerise!
I just have more fun looking at myself and working with awareness and self..than i do judging/analyzing/looking at others or getting too involved in dramas of life. Although I love interacting, dancing with other healthy resonating vibrations!!
It is almost as if I have fun finding ways to take responsibility for my actions... (before others can call me on it!! :wink:)
But I do not apologize for my actions. I chose my actions & lifestyle. And I attract what I need in order to learn more! much easier for me to take responsibility for my actions or say, "excuse me". I just don't like the vibration of feeling "sorry". But that is just me. NO judgement against or for the WORD itself... just does not resonate.... i feel i am learning how to be able to dance with any experience/reflection given, and grab the gift as I surf the waves to balance!
Aristotle said it best: " I am learning how to entertain a thought without accepting it.
"Power arises out of integrating the positive and negatives within us. From the tension that exists between the two,
we developawareness and become more conscious and compassionate."
Hope all had a divine blissful weekend!
Yes, and no, and maybe.
There's a Taoist exercise (translated by Thomas Cleary as) "turning the light of understanding around," which I try to remember to practice when I catch myself judging someone. I think it means that when I see another's defects, the most useful thing I can do for my own spiritual growth is to ask myself the following question: Have I ever done that? (the answer is almost always "yes"). This allows me to stop judging them, and to shine that light of understanding where it can do some good.
On a more relative plane, though, deceit and meanness deserves sequestration from a public forum.
Sara S
04-02-2007, 05:38 AM
I think that the exercise would mean that you might ask yourself what characters defects caused the person you're judging to commit whatever crime he/she did, and whether you have any traces of such defects yourself.
I'm not too articulate, but what I meant by "judging someone" was not to take an inventory of their criminal history, upon which they have already been judged, but the act of looking at a person from an assumed moral high ground, if you will, and denigrating them. This is a perennial problem for me and one which does no good at all (unless you consider ego-stroking to be beneficial). However, if I can use that exercise to examine myself instead, I might be able to benefit from it. At least I can stop my judging fairly soon, and maybe even improve my character.
nurturetruth
04-02-2007, 11:26 AM
its funny...because the tao excercise or the whole 'turn the projection into a reflection" rhyme has seemed to really help me establish more of a relationship with the higher self.
I see my own cynicism and sarcasm..but have had to find a healthy balance and sometimes...I allow myself to get off balance...but at least..i dont let others to knock me off balance!
I know this is rather extreme to bring up as an example..but when march 12 occurred with Jeremiah... after spending 5 days with a variety of emotions, I came to, " there is violence, and injustice and unfairness being portrayed in my projection/reflection. what on EARTH do i do with this and where on the inside of me..do I too...hold those qualities."
I tried to use the reflection to see any forms of actions I too could be contributing to enabling violence or unfairness. I came to the conclusion that to lay doorment and NOT say anything or express my feelings/needs surrounding the issue, was enabling it.
But 9 out of 10 times..it usually all comes back to me and i enjoy finding my reflection in the other person more so than a projection. i welcome the insight!
however, If i worked at san quentin or a jail house.... oh my gosh! that path is SOOO not my chosen path of interest. Not that i wouldn't enjoy it if it were my thing... and I fully respect those who do choose to contribute their services to helping those stuck in their own cells. I do NOT agree with the System or the way inmates are normally treated.
I DO admire anyone who works for "the system" whether its being a psychiatrist or someone working in a jail cell facility doing group therapy or whatever!
thank goodness we are all different with different gifts to bear ....
a friend of mine said it best... "move the projection into a reflection..grab the gift and run!" :wink:
I think that the exercise would mean that you might ask yourself what characters defects caused the person you're judging to commit whatever crime he/she did, and whether you have any traces of such defects yourself.
I'm not too articulate, but what I meant by "judging someone" was not to take an inventory of their criminal history, upon which they have already been judged, but the act of looking at a person from an assumed moral high ground, if you will, and denigrating them. This is a perennial problem for me and one which does no good at all (unless you consider ego-stroking to be beneficial). However, if I can use that exercise to examine myself instead, I might be able to benefit from it. At least I can stop my judging fairly soon, and maybe even improve my character.