Tipping

[Barry]

In a thread titled My Favorite Inexpensive Restaurants (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16778), a discussion broke out on the practice of tipping, including appropriate levels, what's expected and why, what to do if the service is unsatisfactory, taxation, other folks in the food chain (chefs and farm workers), how to treat your server, an lots more! That discussion is below...

["Mad" Miles]

"You tip 10%? What did they do to insult you?"

I tip 10-15% for counter pick-up or take-out/take-away. I tip 18-20% for table service when I eat at the place.

There are some who argue that no tip is required for picking up to-go orders. So by that light I am very generous.

Also keep in mind that I am a poor to moderate income person. (Currently collecting unemployment and barely scraping by. Which is why I haven't been eating out as much and not at the more expensive places.)

I have worked as a waitron and know how much servers depend on tips. I even tip when it is the proprietor who is doing the serving. Some have argued that is not necessary. But I'll even tip an owner for just handing the take-out order across the counter and taking my money. I do this in hopes that tips are shared and the waitrons get a cut.


Part of the unpleasantness of this board, web spaces like it, and personal interactions in our current era, is that people jump to conclusions and make accusations without having enough information to really make a considered judgement, and then they take those snap conclusions and place them on others in public (or even in private, which while irritating and offensive is not quite as insulting as a public criticism.)

No favor goes unpunished.

But me, I just breath, breath and move on.

"M"M


:nono: :tantrum: :pullshair: :banghead: :rofl2: :rofl: :sun: :rainbow: :burngrnbounce:

[Tars]

I tip 10-15% for counter pick-up or take-out/take-away. I tip 18-20% for table service when I eat at the place.
Guess I'm the cheap one then. I never tip if I pick up food at the counter. Or, well, very rarely, and only when the counter person performs service above and beyond, or soimehow makes the experience of picking up food more enjoyable than it normally is. I don't tip a person for being a cashier. Not that they don't deserve more money; everybody does.

I'll tip a server 15% on general principle, even if they aren't good at what they do. I do appreciate a professional server and/or a person who makes the dining experience more pleasurable. Very typically they get at least 20%-25% - more if my economic situation permits.

I eat frequently in Mexican food restaurants - the ones where, even among patrons English is the second language. Love that food! From those experiences I've learned that tipping servers is not a universal custom. In those restaurants tippers are in the small minority. I'll make sure to contribute to the tip jar if they have one, since it's very typical for two or three different people to serve my table. No tip jar - leave a tip on the table & trust that they'll distribute it fairly amongst themselves. Doesn't matter if they're the owner or not.

IMO servers should be paid by the owner depending on their skill. Noone should ever be paid a wage less than at least the legal minimum wage. Tips are a bonus for quality work, not a substitute for a living wage.

Oh, speaking of excellent service, my current favorite is La Texanita over in Roseland. If you're ever in there, check out the paint work, inside and out. It was done by the owner's brother who is a true artist.

https://www.rpriddle.com/webpix/worried02_300.jpg

[potterac]

Some info. for non-servers:

Whether you work the counter or in the dining room in a restaurant, the government takes a piece of your tips. A server will get taxed on their tips using 8% of sales to figure out how much in tips they have made ($100 dollars in sales = $8 you get taxed on). So even if you are not making 8% on your sales, your paycheck suffers. As for the statement:

"IMO servers should be paid by the owner depending on their skill. Noone should ever be paid a wage less than at least the legal minimum wage. Tips are a bonus for quality work, not a substitute for a living wage."

Tips make up for the fact that even minumum wage is not a living wage. And now that you know that servers are taxed on tips, you must have figured out that the paychecks are usually not that large.

If you have never done counter work, here is some info for you: Most of the counter servers are also running around cleaning up the dining room, getting the packaging ready for your to go meal, and delivering to tables as well. They work just as hard as dining room servers and often have a lot more reponsibility in the preparation. They should also be tipped 20%.

And....servers tip out the dishwashers, bussers, and bartenders in most restaraunts. In the one I work in 20% of my tips goes to the bus staff and 10% to the dishwasher. Luckily I work in a place where the clientele know good tipping etiquette and I always make 20%, more most of the time.

If your server is doing a horrific job, is rude, or just not up to standard, consider first if you have ever had a bad day at work, if you have ever been undersaffted and overworked, if you are trying to feed a family on $6.25/ hour, and if you have ever been treated like the scum of the earth, and sometimes like less than scum because of your job. The most terrible server should still make 15% on a bad day...this is part of the package. If you want to be "served" then you should consider that the tip is part of the price.

So for quick reference on counter and dining room sales:

15% always
20% if you get your needs met
25%+ if you loved the service

*And when a tip is added in for a big party, it is most likely that it is 18%. A big party is a lot of work and tipping over the 18% is good etiquette.

:2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::):

[Tars]

Tips make up for the fact that even minumum wage is not a living wage. And now that you know that servers are taxed on tips, you must have figured out that the paychecks are usually not that large.
I think that's generally understood. This is the way it's been done for at least a half-century that I know of. It's wrong. Tips should not take the place of wages. Tips should be a performance bonus comensurate with the level of extra service. The current system is way unfair. Servers, no matter what eating establishment they work in, work just as hard or harder than people who get paid more. There is most often a lot involved in the job beyond just taking care of the customer.

It's also wrong that there should be an expectation that a customer should tip just because the eatery owner isn't legally required to pay a living wage. The current situation is demeaning for the owner, the server, and the customer.

As in any industry, the professional servers I know are always looking to move to an establishment that pays better per hour, and has a clientelle who's willinhg to tip better.

Personally, I sit at the counter whenever it's an option, when I'm by myself. I've never differentiated between counter servers or table servers; they all do the same job. I tip them as well as I can afford. When "counter" help had been mentioned in this thread, it was in terms of "counter pick-up". When I saw that I was thinking in terms of cashier, as in a host/hostess/cashier in a restaurant, where one would pick up an order to-go in a bag. I don't tip hosts or cashiers, since they're just putting food in a bag and ringing it up. Where's the service there? Sorry, I just don't get it. The "service" level is the same there as it would be in McDonald's, or Raley's, or Ace Hardware.

Not to dispute that those people deserve better pay. As I said everyone deserves better pay. I have a service-based business myself. My income level is a direct result of how well I take care of my customers. I'm definitely under-appreciated! :wink: The workers I employ are paid based on how capably and energetically they contribute towards serving our clients. I don't pay them less with the expectation that our clients will slide them a tip. although they do get tipped from time-to-time, as we have built up an excellent group of clients.


So for quick reference on counter and dining room sales:

15% always
20% if you get your needs met
25%+ if you loved the service

That's the exact method I use! I also try to add the most gratious thanks I can muster, and also some compliment on their work, if they have excelled. Though it doesn't spend universally like money, a compliment on job performance is a reward that is never unappreciated.

Tars
https://www.rpriddle.com/webpix/anim_bouncing_ball.gif

[pexpert6]

... The most terrible server should still make 15% on a bad day...this is part of the package. If you want to be "served" then you should consider that the tip is part of the price. ...This smacks of entitlement and co-dependency. I don't agree at all. And I HAVE worked as a waiter, and know how hard the work can be (particularly for someone who didn't have the talents the job requires!).

But I was in the customer SERVICE industry. It was my job not to take out MY issues on the customers, to treat them with respect (regardless of how they behaved), to be pleasant, and to do my best to satisfy them. I'm also an adult, and that's just mature behavior.

When I made a mistake, or was struggling, but still kept my attitude in check and worked hard to do my *job*, customers were generally understanding and forgiving.

When some wait-person treats me like crap, they aren't going to get a tip, or an intentionally miniscule one.

I consider it a wake up call. If they can't get the message the Universe is returning to them (either handle your attitude, or find a new employer, or find a new line of work), then they'll continue to get this lesson from the Universe, until the Universe ups the ante, and they get fired.

I just read that Drew Barrymore was a waitress in her late teens because she couldn't get acting work. She was terrible at it, and she knew it. Her boss told her to go find her passion, and she considers that a huge favor.

Should waiters and others get better pay for what they do? Sure. By the same token, do you want to pay twice as much for everything you spend money on? I didn't think so. People automatically pay more for things they truly value and are in short supply. Need brain surgery? You'll willingly pay an arm and a leg to have a successful outcome. Want a tomato? (One you could easily grow yourself at no cost?) There's a limit to what you'll pay for it.

While we're speaking of tipping, I've seen deli's, coffee shops and other places where employees try to imply I OWE a tip, when it's not at ALL a common practice. (And, yes, I worked at these types of places, too, long ago.)

Hey, if you do a great job of making me a fancy something-or-other and serving me, then it's courteous of me to tip for extrodinary service. But don't expect me to tip for pouring me a single cup of coffee, not when the coffee shop next door will charge me for the cup and let me fill it myself.

Starbucks pays much better than minimum wage, they have benefits, etc. If your coffee shop doesn't, then change employers. You might have political issues with Starbucks, but they DO treat their employees very well, there's room to advance (manage a new location, for example), and they give their customers a quality experience. I've been to other shops that don't do nearly so well by their employees and customers. They even charge me less for my coffee when I get less than a full cup (room for lots of cream and sugar), and they certainly don't have to.

Peet's does a great job, too, as do some of the little independent local shops. I patronize all of them.

But don't expect everyone to automatically give a generous tip, just because you showed up for work.

Ric

[pexpert6]

BTW, I recommend everyone pay attention to the name of your servers and other employees, and use their names when addressing them and thanking them.

Often, they'll have a name tag, or you could ASK them for their name. And make certain you pronounce it properly! If you aren't sure, ASK!

I promise that making this person-to-person connection can make the employee's day, and might induce them to go the extra mile for you, either now or next time they serve you.

This isn't in place of tipping. It DOES grease the wheels of your transaction, and of their day. It can go a long way to helping their attitude, and the service they give to the next person. Someone who feels good about you might do a better job all around, which can lead to promotions, bigger tips from everyone, and all manner of other blessings (The Law of Attraction, and all).

You don't have to get their life story. Just connect with the people in your life. Pay attention to them. You might be surprised at the benefits, or you may never ever know what good came of it. But try it, and trust it.

Ric

[alphagrl]

A while back a friend used the technique of doubling the sales tax on the bill. So, I follow that practice which makes it pretty easy to figure out. I belive it's 8.5% which means that the average tip using this method would be a 17% tip, more if you loved the service, but just a good rule of thumb.

and, you're so right that personing your server by getting their names is a good humanizing practice. Nice thread all!

;o) alphagrl

[tomcat]

I don't understand how this 'tipping' entitlement mentality got started here in the U.S., but I like the way it's done in some European places where 'Service is included'. That way, if someone gives me service above and beyond the call of duty, I can leave them a tip, for something 'Extra'.


If workers refused to work for anything but a living wage, owners would have to pay more or they would have no workers (in a perfect world).
Tom

[zenekar]

Question: Who tips the low wage farm workers who do the hardest work picking the vegetables and fruit, working on the cattle and poultry ranches, vineyards, etc., harvesting the bounty that the waiter at the restaurant brings to the table? -- Out of sight, out of mind.

Attila
---



I don't understand how this 'tipping' entitlement mentality got started here in the U.S., but I like the way it's done in some European places where 'Service is included'. That way, if someone gives me service above and beyond the call of duty, I can leave them a tip, for something 'Extra'.


If workers refused to work for anything but a living wage, owners would have to pay more or they would have no workers (in a perfect world).
Tom

[potterac]

Question: Who tips the low wage farm workers who do the hardest work picking the vegetables and fruit, working on the cattle and poultry ranches, vineyards, etc., harvesting the bounty that the waiter at the restaurant brings to the table? -- Out of sight, out of mind.

Attila
---

I completely agree. I don't know much about farm workers wages except that they are not where they should be and are treated very unfairly. Do they ever receive bonuses or extra compensation for going above and beyond? I would assume not, but if anyone knows otherwise...it would be good to know.

[potterac]

Tax is actually 7.75%. So that would put your tips at a little over 15%. Just something to think about!:idea:



A while back a friend used the technique of doubling the sales tax on the bill. So, I follow that practice which makes it pretty easy to figure out. I belive it's 8.5% which means that the average tip using this method would be a 17% tip, more if you loved the service, but just a good rule of thumb.

and, you're so right that personing your server by getting their names is a good humanizing practice. Nice thread all!

;o) alphagrl

[potterac]

This smacks of entitlement and co-dependency.Wow! Harsh!


"But I was in the customer SERVICE industry. It was my job not to take out MY issues on the customers, to treat them with respect (regardless of how they behaved), to be pleasant, and to do my best to satisfy them. I'm also an adult, and that's just mature behavior." I agree with this statement. I know that when I don't do a good job, my tips suffer. But there are so many other factors involved that the server may not have control over. My suggestion was just to try and put yourself in their shoes before making a judgement on how much their service is worth to you. A good practice in all interactions!


"When some wait-person treats me like crap, they aren't going to get a tip, or an intentionally miniscule one." When a customer treats a waiter like crap, can we decrease the size of their meal or pour less wine? When you have a bad day at work does your boss dock your paycheck? We all have days that aren't as good as others...just asking for some empathy for all the servers out there in the world.


"But don't expect everyone to automatically give a generous tip, just because you showed up for work." I think you missed the point. I don't expect to get tipped because I show for work. I expect to get tipped because I am providing a service that deserves compensation.

: )

[zenekar]

Here is information regarding how farm workers are treated.

Attila
---

"Poison pill" amendments would cut farm workers from the minimum wage
Last week, the House approved legislation (Fair Minimum Wage Act) to increase the minimum wage over two years to $7.25 per hour from $5.15 per hour. Now the bill has moved on to the senate, and is in jeopardy because anti-worker Senators are trying to attach proposals to the minimum wage bill that would be so harmful they would kill the bill.

Two of the amendments just filed directly discriminate against farm workers. Sen. Chambliss (R-GA) newly introduced amendments will affect all farm workers by turning back the clock to the pre-1966 days when migrant farm workers were excluded from minimum wage protections. The effect of Senator Chambliss' amendments is to lower the wage rates paid to foreign workers who come to this country to work in agriculture through the H2A program. This will of course have the corresponding effect of driving down wages for all farm workers – domestic, in addition to foreign. Moreover, this change would simply encourage the increasing use of foreign guest workers in potentially exploitive conditions.

Senator Chambliss' amendments would abolish the H-2A program’s Adverse Effect Wage Rate, redefine the “prevailing wage,” and eliminate the requirements to pay the state minimum wage rate.

This and other proposed amendments are simply unacceptable. But, that's the point. These proposals are "poison pills"--ideas so offensive to the bill's supporters that they could no longer vote for the bill.

There's still time to put these poison pills back in their bottle, though. The Senate can simply vote on a "clean bill" —a bill without these biased anti-worker add-ons—and give America's working people the raise they desperately need.

You can take action and sign a petition at this website:
https://www.ufwaction.org/campaign/minwage_chambliss?qp_source=web



I completely agree. I don't know much about farm workers wages except that they are not where they should be and are treated very unfairly. Do they ever receive bonuses or extra compensation for going above and beyond? I would assume not, but if anyone knows otherwise...it would be good to know.

[mykil]

I generally tip 22 - 25 percent just to be kind! This is well appreciated I suppose
. As long as I can afford it, I do it this way! Makes people happy, the more happy people the better!

[Sassy1]

I don't understand how this 'tipping' entitlement mentality got started here in the U.S., but I like the way it's done in some European places where 'Service is included'. That way, if someone gives me service above and beyond the call of duty, I can leave them a tip, for something 'Extra'.I agree I never tip unless I get good service, I never have and never will. My hubby and I often get into it, because he is a mandatory tipper and I was a waitress in my younger days and learned fast the better service I provided the better tip I got. Tips are not mandatory, they are a earned bonous.

Why can't we just tip the cook (if we want) if the food was mmm mmm delious; the cook actually did more of the work. There are times the food is great but waitress/waiter service didn't even deserve a penny tip. There are times the food sucks and I'm hoping the waiter/waitress doesn't have to share the tip (I ask and at times on clean napkin for waitress only). Yes the tipping world can get topsy tervy. Just tip what they earned, even a penny says a lot.

[AnnaLisaW]

I must say that I found some of the comments on tipping appalling. The negative comments obviously came from people who have never waited tables. I have worked in a variety of professions and including house-cleaning, office management and sales to name a few. Waiting tables is one of the most demanding jobs I have ever had. Furthermore, their hourly wages are usually minimun wage and the IRS taxes these people for a percentage of the house's gross whether you tip them or not. Waitpersons are often taxed on a lot more than they earn.

Please, have a heart. If you don't like the idea of tipping, please purchase take-out and eat at home.

P.S. Last I heard, the tipping standard in Northern California was 18%.:2cents:

[alanora]

I agree I never tip unless I get good service, I never have and never will. My hubby and I often get into it, because he is a mandatory tipper and I was a waitress in my younger days and learned fast the better service I provided the better tip I got. Tips are not mandatory, they are a earned bonous.

Why can't we just tip the cook (if we want) if the food was mmm mmm delious; the cook actually did more of the work. There are times the food is great but waitress/waiter service didn't even deserve a penny tip. There are times the food sucks and I'm hoping the waiter/waitress doesn't have to share the tip (I ask and at times on clean napkin for waitress only). Yes the tipping world can get topsy tervy. Just tip what they earned, even a penny says a lot. Just what does a penny say? My friend acts alarmed when I start rooting around in my change to pull it out and add it to the tip as she says that a penny is insulting even when surrounded by all kinds of coins and folding money, and there is a partial tip on the debit card sometimes the tip is on the debit card and the change is both a way to show appreciation and to lighten the load. Is that insulting?

[gypsey]

PBS has been hosting an excellent documentary on farm workers and farmers under the guest worker program from Mexico. I found it very enlightening. As usual nothing is black or white.
I completely agree. I don't know much about farm workers wages except that they are not where they should be and are treated very unfairly. Do they ever receive bonuses or extra compensation for going above and beyond? I would assume not, but if anyone knows otherwise...it would be good to know.

[Sassy1]

I must say that I found some of the comments on tipping appalling. The negative comments obviously came from people who have never waited tables. I have worked in a variety of professions and including house-cleaning, office management and sales to name a few. Waiting tables is one of the most demanding jobs I have ever had. Furthermore, their hourly wages are usually minimun wage and the IRS taxes these people for a percentage of the house's gross whether you tip them or not. Waitpersons are often taxed on a lot more than they earn.

Please, have a heart. If you don't like the idea of tipping, please purchase take-out and eat at home.

P.S. Last I heard, the tipping standard in Northern California was 18%.:2cents:

Please get A brain. I was a waitress and as stated before the better service I gave the better tip I got. I'll eat out and tip according to service. If they want tips let them earn them or find another job.

[Sassy1]

I think you missed the point. I don't expect to get tipped because I show for work. I expect to get tipped because I am providing a service that deserves compensation.

: )You get a paycheck for providing that service. If you do a good job I'm sure you'll get tipped.

[Sassy1]

Just what does a penny say? My friend acts alarmed when I start rooting around in my change to pull it out and add it to the tip as she says that a penny is insulting even when surrounded by all kinds of coins and folding money, and there is a partial tip on the debit card sometimes the tip is on the debit card and the change is both a way to show appreciation and to lighten the load. Is that insulting?



If you get lousy service and leave nothing, there is no message; however, if you get lousy service and leave only a penny the message bad service gets naughta. At times when service really sucks I'll even say better service better tip.

When I was waitressing and there were pennies included in the tip I wasn't insulted and appreciated that customer, knowing he valued the service I provided so much, he dug as deep as he could. Luckily I was never tossed a single penny; I would have been downheart. Then again I earned some nice tips. Regular customers even brought me concert tickets, meat, fish, flowers and once 10 pounds of cheese. Good work sometimes reap strange but cool things. Only natural bad work reaps the same in kind.

[pexpert6]

... Then again I earned some nice tips. Regular customers even brought me concert tickets, meat, fish, flowers and once 10 pounds of cheese. Good work sometimes reap strange but cool things. Only natural bad work reaps the same in kind.

Hooray! Someone who isn't locked into scarcity thinking, lack and limitation! Sassy obviously had a great attitude while waiting tables, and no surprise, got well rewarded for it!

To the person that felt I was harsh calling in my comments of entitlement and co-dependency, you might actually research what those terms mean. Sassy obviously didn't have that mentality: she didn't harangue her customers and others about what they "owed" her. She served people her best, not only in her actions, but her attitude, and got WELL acknowledged and compensated.

You might also look up "gift" (gratuity means a GIFT of money, over and above payment due for service; that which is given without claim or demand)... you'll probably see the word "voluntarily".

By believing (falsely) the world OWES you, and making them wrong when they don't take care of you, you spew negative energy out in front of you, making you less attractive to generous others, as well as to the Abundance you desire. You might consider that you bring this on yourself and stop blaming everyone else for not treating you as a child that must be taken care of.

Harsh? Only if you insist on thinking like a spoiled child.

Suck it up. Life isn't necessarily fair, and you can't truly legislate it to be so. But you can CHOOSE your attitude, your actions, and the future you intend for yourself... and you can choose to be grateful for every gift that comes your way... including those you think are harsh and unfair. The Universe gives you lessons, and you can either see them as unfair and undesired, or as an opportunity. Your choices are the most powerful tools available, and can transform the world.

[potterac]

You get a paycheck for providing that service. If you do a good job I'm sure you'll get tipped.

You say that you were a server but you seem to forget as stated several times in this blog that you get docked on your paycheck whether you get tipped or not for your gross sales. The government assuming that you are making more than you are. The paychecks are not very much because of this. I am an excellent server and pride myself on making every encounter enjoyable for my clientèle, but that doesn't mean that everyone tips accordingly. Some people are just cheap, or maybe don't understand the logistics of tipping (I think the reason why this blog got started in the first place).

And also tips are shared with the busser, bartender, and dishwashers in most restaurants. I also give the chef and prep kitchen a little something on a good night. Most chefs will turn down tips because they get paid more and know that buying groceries depends on the tips for most servers. I usually only keep 60% of my tips....and again I am the one who pays the taxes on them, not the people I tip out.

[potterac]

Hooray! Someone who isn't locked into scarcity thinking, lack and limitation! Sassy obviously had a great attitude while waiting tables, and no surprise, got well rewarded for it!

To the person that felt I was harsh calling in my comments of entitlement and co-dependency, you might actually research what those terms mean. Sassy obviously didn't have that mentality: she didn't harangue her customers and others about what they "owed" her. She served people her best, not only in her actions, but her attitude, and got WELL acknowledged and compensated.

You might also look up "gift" (gratuity means a GIFT of money, over and above payment due for service; that which is given without claim or demand)... you'll probably see the word "voluntarily".

By believing (falsely) the world OWES you, and making them wrong when they don't take care of you, you spew negative energy out in front of you, making you less attractive to generous others, as well as to the Abundance you desire. You might consider that you bring this on yourself and stop blaming everyone else for not treating you as a child that must be taken care of.

Harsh? Only if you insist on thinking like a spoiled child.

Suck it up. Life isn't necessarily fair, and you can't truly legislate it to be so. But you can CHOOSE your attitude, your actions, and the future you intend for yourself... and you can choose to be grateful for every gift that comes your way... including those you think are harsh and unfair. The Universe gives you lessons, and you can either see them as unfair and undesired, or as an opportunity. Your choices are the most powerful tools available, and can transform the world.

Wow! You would think that you know me by all the assumptions you are making about the kind of person I am. I have a lot of empathy for everyone in all walks of life and because of this I chose to write that you should try and consider what is going on for someone before taking away their bread and butter. Your judgment of me is obviously coming from experience that has nothing to do with me, and I forgive you for that. I have my masters in family therapy and am very well versed on co-dependency and entitlement, and I don't think that what I have said has anything to do with that. I do want people to understand that whether they tip or not, servers pay the government. I do want people to understand that many people working in the restaurants benefit from generous customers. I think you are an angry, judgmental person and their was nothing in this blog that was personal, just people sharing opinions,until you started slinging arrows. Shame on you for not being able to have a debate about this without trying to hurt!

[tomcat]

If a server is getting taxed 8% of sales, that should be added to the bill of every customer (service included), and then customers could 'TIP' based on the quality of their experience. Good servers will stick with it because the tips are so good and bad servers will move on to a profession that suits them better. (should we prioritize this change right behind stopping the war?)

Personally, I had no idea that servers were being taxed that way and I'm sure that most people don't know and also don't have any idea what your base wage is.

My wife and I very rarely go out to eat for a few reasons... we are picky eaters and very seldom are we satisfied with the quality of restaurant food. Also, for the price of eating out one night, we can make superb home cooked meals for a week.
Tom



You say that you were a server but you seem to forget as stated several times in this blog that you get docked on your paycheck whether you get tipped or not for your gross sales. The government assuming that you are making more than you are. The paychecks are not very much because of this. I am an excellent server and pride myself on making every encounter enjoyable for my clientele, but that doesn't mean that everyone tips accordingly. Some people are just cheap, or maybe don't understand the logistics of tipping (I think the reason why this blog got started in the first place).

And also tips are shared with the busser, bartender, and dishwashers in most restaurants. I also give the chef and prep kitchen a little something on a good night. Most chefs will turn down tips because they get paid more and know that buying groceries depends on the tips for most servers. I usually only keep 60% of my tips....and again I am the one who pays the taxes on them, not the people I tip out.

[Sassy1]

Some people are just cheap, or maybe don't understand the logisitcs of tipping (I think the reason why this blog got started in the first place).

Whooo If you want people to put themselves in your shoes; you best put yourself in their shoes. Did you ever once put yourself in the customer's place. Maybe some the have a min. wage job with no tips, maybe they are on U.I. or disability which is often less then min. wage. A person could also be between paychecks. Some might be jobless without benefits. Some homeless or have old age security. For as many reasons as you think, you should be tipped are reasons people may not tip; So those are the people that trully tip on service and tip what they can afford and probably don't eat out every day or have to save for the next day's meal themselves.


And also tips are shared with the busser, bartender, and dishwashers in most restaurants. I also give the chef and prep kitchen a little something on a good night. Most chefs will turn down tips because they get paid more and know that buying groceries depends on the tips for most servers. I usually only keep 60% of my tips....and again I am the one who pays the taxes on them, not the people I tip out.

Good deeds are good deeds only if you don't complain or whine about doing them. So instead of beating up the customers that created the need for your services in the first place; how about gathering up the waitresses and supporters and take on the government to remove the taxing of tips. Use reasoning and of all the stuff posted here. Who knows you might be the next Norma Raee.

[Sassy1]

If a server is getting taxed 8% of sales, that should be added to the bill of every customer (service included), and then customers could 'TIP' based on the quality of their experience.People getting taxed double for eating out may cut down on the poor folks treating themselves. Even I wouldn't be eating out as often, because I'd figure I was being forced to tip with the added tax. I'm a believer tips are earned. Don't penalize the customer or the job may become nonexistent. The root of the problem is the government who created the tax.

[gypsey]

Dear Barry: I am wondering if you could post for all of us instructions on how to reply publicly. Although I was not the initiator of the "tipping" dialogue I am getting dozens of emails in my in box, this seems to happen a lot and I hope we can somehow respond publicly without adding to our over-filled in boxes.Thanks! Also I am not Sassy or these other people. Thanks very much and for those who care Chez Pannisse, arguably one of the most high end and expensive restaurants in the Bay Nation (with fabulous service) simply tacks on a 17.5% service charge. Cheers, Gypsey
Please get A brain. I was a waitress and as stated before the better service I gave the better tip I got. I'll eat out and tip according to service. If they want tips let them earn them or find another job.

[Barry]

I hope we can somehow respond publicly without adding to our over-filled in boxes.Thanks! When you start or reply publicly to a thread you are subscribed for individual email updates for that thread by default. You can change that on your User Control Panel here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/profile.php?do=editoptions).

Here's link to a help topic (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3597) with a more complete explanation.

[pexpert6]

Wow! You would think that you know me by all the assumptions you are making about the kind of person I am.

OK, you clearly think I was attacking you personally. And, in your defensiveness, you've made assumptions about me.

I don't know who you are, I know nothing about you, nor was I directing my comments at any ONE person. Just stating my POV, since there were declarations of "truth" about customers, what's *owed* to people CHOOSING to wait tables, etc.

And, by the way, forgiveness is never really of someone else, only of yourself.

I understand that servers are taxed for an assumed income. That should come through as part of the lesson, if one is to wait on customers for a living, AS I HAVE, that the better job you do AND the better your attitude towards ALL your customers, the better your earnings will be in the long run.

If you always are helping a baby to walk, never letting it struggle to learn (and fail) on its own, then that child will take longer to learn, at the very least. If you force customers to pay you a GIFT, not only will a waitperson not learn a valuable life lesson (and key to better employment in hospitality or other industries), it will likely adversely impact the compensation of THAT waitperson, and perhaps ALL waitpersons.

That's not codependency? Empathy doesn't include disempowering others. Sometimes giving someone harsh truth or difficult lessons is more compassionate! As to having a degree or license at ANYTHING doesn't guarantee that someone is actually good at it, so touting your credentials doesn't mean anything to me, one way or the other.

If you really think you have the right answer, then organize waiters, or campaign for new laws.

You're welcome to think anything you like about me, even if you're inaccurate. I wouldn't presume to censor anyone for having beliefs I don't agree with or are clearly wrong.

Yes, there are times in my life that I've been angry, times that I've been judgmental, and other things you might disapprove of, just as you vehemently disapprove of others' opinions on this topic. I suspect that makes me a human being. I discern, from your response(s), that you're both angry and judgemental, too.

I'll ignore the accusation that expressing my opinion was "slinging arrows" or "trying to hurt" (as if you could know my intention), but I don't think I can ignore a "professional" therapist trying to shame me. In the medical profession, the code is to "first, do no harm." I guess this isn't a code you live by?

And no, I don't accept shame for expressing this, or other actions I've taken. I lived with shame for a long time, imposed upon me by others, I found my own way to resolve myself of that sin (not through therapists).

You appear to harbor resentments, since what others think bothers you so much, and you are trying to affix blame on others for the circumstances of waitpersons (which they've willingly continued to accept). I empathize, as I used to be the same. I encourage you to heal yourself, first.

[Dixon]

Whew! A lot of heat around this issue. I see good arguments on both sides. Personally, I generally tip between 15% and 20% (maybe 15% is considered stingy nowadays? Perhaps I should increase my baseline tip to 18% or more?) Anyway, that's all moot for now, as I won't be affording any restaurant meals until I get a job!

FWIW, I've had a couple of jobs earlier in my life that involved tipping: babysitting and cab driving. My approach was always the same: I always did my best to give good service regardless of tips, because as a simple matter of honor I believe that when you're getting a paycheck you owe it to the boss, the customer, and most importantly, to your OWN SELF-RESPECT to do your best regardless of tips. Of course, I was always thankful for any tip I got, but never felt it was automatically coming to me, even if I did a great job.

One injustice that hasn't been mentioned yet: Since tipping is based on a percentage of the bill, waiters who work in expensive restaurants get tipped several times as much for the same level of service as those who work in blue-collar cafes. That can't be right!

Here's a puzzlement: Why do we tip a few types of workers (waiters, cabbies, etc.) and not others (salespeople in most stores, dental assistants, etc.)? Makes no damn sense; seems totally arbitrary--like so much of human behavior.

My fondest wish re: the tipping issue is that tipping disappear entirely from the planet, replaced by decent wages for everyone. Just a fantasy, unfortunately.

Love;
Dixon


OK, you clearly think I was attacking you personally. And, in your defensiveness, you've made assumptions about me.

I don't know who you are, I know nothing about you, nor was I directing my comments at any ONE person. Just stating my POV, since there were declarations of "truth" about customers, what's *owed* to people CHOOSING to wait tables, etc.

And, by the way, forgiveness is never really of someone else, only of yourself.

I understand that servers are taxed for an assumed income. That should come through as part of the lesson, if one is to wait on customers for a living, AS I HAVE, that the better job you do AND the better your attitude towards ALL your customers, the better your earnings will be in the long run.

If you always are helping a baby to walk, never letting it struggle to learn (and fail) on its own, then that child will take longer to learn, at the very least. If you force customers to pay you a GIFT, not only will a waitperson not learn a valuable life lesson (and key to better employment in hospitality or other industries), it will likely adversely impact the compensation of THAT waitperson, and perhaps ALL waitpersons.

That's not codependency? Empathy doesn't include disempowering others. Sometimes giving someone harsh truth or difficult lessons is more compassionate! As to having a degree or license at ANYTHING doesn't guarantee that someone is actually good at it, so touting your credentials doesn't mean anything to me, one way or the other.

If you really think you have the right answer, then organize waiters, or campaign for new laws.

You're welcome to think anything you like about me, even if you're inaccurate. I wouldn't presume to censor anyone for having beliefs I don't agree with or are clearly wrong.

Yes, there are times in my life that I've been angry, times that I've been judgmental, and other things you might disapprove of, just as you vehemently disapprove of others' opinions on this topic. I suspect that makes me a human being. I discern, from your response(s), that you're both angry and judgemental, too.

I'll ignore the accusation that expressing my opinion was "slinging arrows" or "trying to hurt" (as if you could know my intention), but I don't think I can ignore a "professional" therapist trying to shame me. In the medical profession, the code is to "first, do no harm." I guess this isn't a code you live by?

And no, I don't accept shame for expressing this, or other actions I've taken. I lived with shame for a long time, imposed upon me by others, I found my own way to resolve myself of that sin (not through therapists).

You appear to harbor resentments, since what others think bothers you so much, and you are trying to affix blame on others for the circumstances of waitpersons (which they've willingly continued to accept). I empathize, as I used to be the same. I encourage you to heal yourself, first.

["Mad" Miles]

Dear Cheapskates or Not So Cheapskates,

(Kidding!!! Relax!

"Don't tell me what to do!"

OK! Don't Relax! Whatever you want, just don't flame me? Please?? ... Pretty Please....)

I just want to remind everybody that this thread started when somebody (I forget who and don't really care and yes I could scroll to the bottom of this page and remind myself of their screen name, but so could you and what does it matter?) indirectly accused me of being angry for tipping only 10%. In reply I reminded them that I was referring specifically to a take-out/take-away order (I just love Britishisms) and I then wrote an all too self-revealing post about how exactly I tip. That got the ball rolling.

From my reading of this thread I think a lot of the heat has to do with ambivalence about the nature of our capitalist economic system. While it has not been explicitly mentioned, it looks like the subtext of this debate to me.

Yes, workers need to organize for better conditions and have a say in the work process. There's a reason I'm a Wobbly. (member of the Industrial Workers of the World) https://www.iww.org/ I believe in the right of workers to determine their own lives. But the devil is in the details of how you go about organizing to get what you want.

Waiting tables is seen as unskilled labor (it's not, as anyone who has done it can tell you) and service workers are easily replaced if they cause any "problems" for managment. Also restaurants generally tend to be small businesses, so the "divide and conquer" tactics of management are easier to deploy than at larger industrial operations where many more wage slaves suffer the same conditions and work for the same boss(es).

Organizing an industry in which the workers are separated into many small workplaces, instead of at large institutions, has always proven to be much more difficult than it is at large businesses, where it's damn hard as well.

The ambiguity I see in this discussion comes from this contradiction: we live in a system in which most people are exploited for their labor, and they have to take it because there are plenty of others who will take their place if they "cause trouble", on the other hand we live in a culture in which individual responsibility is the primary value, so if you don't succeed economically it's your fault.

("You haven't applied your mind and spirit sufficiently to shaping reality for your own benefit as much as the other guy who is doing well." How's that for a summation of "The Law of Attraction" and "You're not responsible for what others feel about you"?)

Winners have worked harder and smarter, losers are just that and it's their own fault. Social structures (class, education, professional guilds, prejudices and in-group / out-group dynamics, etc.) are irrelevant to how one does economically. This is the land of opportunity and anyone willing to work hard can make a great life for themselves. If you haven't, it's your own ... (read the catechism one more time!)

Of course things are much more complicated than the binary oppositional thinking I've just mirrored above.

But anyone who does not think that poverty, class division and economic exploitation are structurally part of the society we have inherited and live in, whether we like it or not, is just not paying attention to something every historian, political philosopher and sociologist for the last two hundred years (at least) agrees on. (Among many other academic disciplines that also acknowledge this fact.)

Their differences have to do with the inevitability, desireability and/or unavoidability of economic exploitation and class separation. But nobody denies that capitalism is about economic exploitation based upon class division. They just argue about whether it's a good thing, or not.

Pretending that something real is not real, because one is uncomfortable with its existence, doesn't make that thing less real. It just means one is denying reality. Denial of reality is something people are very, very good at, but not to the betterment of their ability to cope with reality. And yes, reality is a collective illusion that we have inherited and continue to create, but that "illusion" kills just as well as a big tree falling on your head and crushing it during a windstorm (even if nobody else is there to hear it or see it!)

Some may say: "So what, there's nothing we can do to change capitalism, it's bigger than all of us and we just have to accept it and do the best we can."

Perhaps. I just want to argue against the idea that it is somehow in the nature of things that people have to be exploited. We inherit the choices that those before us have made. As they inherited the choices of those who came before them. We influence the choices that those who come after us get to make.

Do what you can and try to enjoy the process as best you can. At least that's what I try to do. And I, of course, am not trying to tell anyone else what to do or think. But I am encouraging everyone to think!


Hey, Barry, could you get my name off this thread as its "starter"? I wrote a list, with brief descriptions, of most of the local inexpensive restaurants that I like, as a gift to my fellow Waccies. I did not intend to start a debate about whether waiters are ungrateful, surly wretches or deserving exploited workers entitled to get mondo tips! Even if I'm in the latter camp.


Everybody, hold on, my list of not so inexpensive restuarants where you can get a delicious meal for between $15-$30 is pending! At least it's pending in my head if not on my hard drive...

Bon Appetit!

"Mad" (In every way connoted by the word) Miles

[Barry]

Hey, Barry, could you get my name off this thread as its "starter"? I wrote a list, with brief descriptions, of most of the local inexpensive restaurants that I like, as a gift to my fellow Waccies. I did not intend to start a debate about whether waiters are ungrateful, surly wretches or deserving exploited workers entitled to get mondo tips! Even if I'm in the latter camp.Done!

And I've moved the Tipping thread to the WaccoTalk category and posted a backed-dated short intro to the thread.

Happy Dining to those of you who can afford to!