View Full Version : Chávez reelected: >61% of votes cast
Valley Oak
12-03-2006, 11:01 PM
I just love seeing a person like Chávez win by a landslide while Bush gets ass romped on in the elections last month, here in the US!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Edward
(https://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/12/04/internacional/1165198245.html)
I just love seeing a person like Chávez win by a landslide while Bush gets ass romped on in the elections last month, here in the US!
Huh? Yours is a puzzling statement. Hey, I'm with you about the Bush "ass romp". But I'm curious why you're so happy that Chavez got elected. He doesn't seem particularly exceptional, or have I missed something? Chavez just seems like big bag of old school hot air to me... :hmmm:
Valley Oak
12-05-2006, 10:16 AM
Interesting.
Well, for starters, the Bush administration helped orchestrate a failed coup against Chavez in 2002. Powerful and influential Venezuelans met at the US embassy in Caracas to plan the coup with the help of the State department and other US government agencies (e.g. CIA, etc).
That alone, is enough of an irony to laugh about, even if Chavez has no credibility. Although I disagree with your evaluation of Chavez, I'll leave it at that for now. I would like to know why you feel that way, though, if you care to elaborate.
Edward
Huh? Yours is a puzzling statement. Hey, I'm with you about the Bush "ass romp". But I'm curious why you're so happy that Chavez got elected. He doesn't seem particularly exceptional, or have I missed something? Chavez just seems like big bag of old school hot air to me... :hmmm:
I disagree with your evaluation of Chavez, I'll leave it at that for now. I would like to know why you feel that way, though, if you care to elaborate.
I haven't seen that he's done that much positive for Venezuela. Though the Venbezuelans must feel he has, since they re-elected him with such a comfortable margin. Or maybe they elected him because of his populist tirades against Satan...er...Bush (he gives W too much credit I think). Carter monitored the election & said it was on the up & up, so he's apparently a bona fide leader, not just another Latin American dictator. Although I have heard his civil rights record isn't too great in his own country.
Mainly, I get turned off by those who get behind a podium and try to build themselves up by denigrating other people. It's one of the things about Bush that's obnoxious, and has alienated the U.S. from most other countries. It's a total lack of class on Bush's part, same thing goes for Chavez. it's reminiscent of Hitler's tirades against the jews, or Michael Savage, Limbaugh, Coulter tirades against the gays or the "godless liberals". Old school political baloney. If he, or Bush, or any of those ilk, spent more time proposing solutions, and less time poking their finger in the air, the world might well be a better place.
As far as Latin American leaders go, I respect Ortega's election much more than Chavez'.
"Mad" Miles
12-05-2006, 02:00 PM
"I haven't seen that he's done that much positive for Venezuela. Though the Venbezuelans" Sic. "must feel he has, since they re-elected him with such a comfortable margin. Or maybe they elected him because of his populist tirades against Satan...er...Bush "
Chavez has significantly increased health care and education in the colonias/favelas/shantytowns of major cities. He has brought the indigenous (Indian) into the public arena and has increased their representation in civil service roles and elected representative roles. He has created subsidized food stores for the poor, for basic household food commodities. He is sharing Venezuela's oil wealth with its people. All of them.
He is railed at every day by the privately owned media and has done nothing to shut them down (as well he shouldn't).
He is loved by the poor masses and feared and hated by the middle and upper class elites.
For good "objective" coverage I recommend Slate.com which recently had a two part report on the election. Go to www.slate.com (https://www.slate.com/) to the page for Friday, December 1 and open the first of Alexandra Starr's "Dispatches".
(I would paste the URL here but my upgraded Windows Explorer 7 has somehow precluded that option.)
Don't worry, these two pieces are short and punchy.
Whatever Chavez says in the international arena is more for Venezualan domestic consumption or Latin American ears, than it is for the nervously comfortable in "El Norte".
Big things are happening in Latin America and hopefully the U.S. response won't be a repeat of the fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties. We can dream.
A friend recently sent me this long interview, which I have not finished reading but I'll attach it for the wonks among us. (See below.)
For good coverage of events in Bolivia check out Jim Shultz's Democracy Center: www.democracyctr.org (https://www.democracyctr.org/)
If all you know is what the U.S. mainstream media is telling us, then all you know is a very limited, biased and intentionally misleading view of the world. I read the PD and the Sunday NYT's, look at msnbc.com news, monitor PBS and the cable news channels. But I also listen to KPFA, sometimes watch Democracy Now on Channel 26 (Healdsburg Cable Access on Comcast) and subscribe to many email lists from different advocacy groups. For a broad spectrum Leftist radical take on domestic and international events, I recommend my buddy Sunil Sharma's Dissident Voice newsletter. www.dissidentvoice.org (https://www.dissidentvoice.org/)
Be informed, be very informed. What you know could save your life and the life of your society. Just maybe...
"Mad" Miles
I'm not very interested in Venezuelan politics, unless they do something outside their borders that has international scope. I'm much more intrigued by U.S. politics, and these sources I almost always check out daily (not necessarily in this order):
The Huffington Post: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/
Andrew Sullivan "The Daily Dish": https://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/
The Drudge Report: https://www.drudgereport.com/
Instapundit.com: https://www.instapundit.com/
Slate: https://www.slate.com/
Taegan Goddard's Political Wire: https://politicalwire.com/
Daily Kos: https://dailykos.com/
TPM Cafe: https://tpmcafe.com/
Hinessight: https://www.hinessight.com/
Newspapers of choice:
The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/
Press Demo - sorry, can't stand The Chronicle!
If there's a particularly significant debate, election, etc. going on, I also check out NRO, The Plank, Progressive Policy Institute, The Nation, MoveON.org - also several foreign news websites - Reuters, The London Daily Telegraph, etc..for different perspectives.
Sheesh..maybe I need a life...<checks> (checks) yep, still got one. Whew!</checks>
Sonomamark
01-19-2007, 07:35 PM
I couldn't disagree more.
While I agree with many of Chávez' policies, he is rapidly turning himself into a dictator, above the law, without checks and balances, and stifling dissent.
Socialism at the point of a gun isn't going to lead anywhere good.
I just love seeing a person like Chávez win by a landslide while Bush gets ass romped on in the elections last month, here in the US!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Edward
(https://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/12/04/internacional/1165198245.html)
"Mad" Miles
01-20-2007, 07:28 PM
"he is rapidly turning himself into a dictator, above the law, without checks and balances, and stifling dissent."
Yo Mark,
These are strong accusations. What is your factual evidence for them? I read the MSM (PD and Sunday NYT's) and there has been concern expressed about him re-nationalizing telecommunications and some other major industries the nature of which I'm spacing at the moment.
But I have not seen any accusations of stifling dissent, being above the law, creating a dictatorship, etc.
Belay that, he is accused of those things by the upper-middle classes in Venezuela, but as for actual moves, made by him and his party... It looks to be hysteria because he's shaking things up along the lines I adumbrate below.
Please let us know what actions of Chavez's, specifically, you are referring to?
"M"M
The parliament in Venezeula has agreed to allow Chavez "decree" power, which means he doesn't have to go through the parliament to nationalize, confiscate, or do just about anything. This sounds dangerous to me, although I have no problem with nationalizing certain industries, and protecting them from foreign ownership.
My distrust for Chavez is how he goes around all of Latin America demanding, not suggesting, they all conform to his idea of a revolution. I think some of the leaders of those countries also distrust Chavez. It's the man, not his stated ideology.
On the other hand, what do WACCO people think about Ortega in Nicaragua, who has evidently re-immersed himself in old school Catholicism, endorsing Nicaragua's new draconian abortion laws?
My distrust for Chavez is how he goes around all of Latin America demanding, not suggesting, they all conform to his idea of a revolution. I think some of the leaders of those countries also distrust Chavez. It's the man, not his stated ideology.
Chavez is a podium-pounding-populist. when I see him speak I'm reminded of the sound of Charlie Brown's teacher, "Wa WA WA, WAWAWAWA!" Guess it goes over big in Venezuela, less impressive elsewhere. I'm encouraged by Chavez though, and Ortega too, and even possibly events in Cuba. Chavez' utility-nationalization efforts should have a positive effect on his economy - providing they can maintain the utilities infrastructures after nationalization. The results of that won't be seen for several years at least.
But on a larger scale, it's encouraging to see the South American and Central American countries developing a regional identity that's more humanist than the fascist regimes that have dominated there for so long. Perhaps a European Union type identity for Central/South America is developing?
Along that line It's encouraging too to see that there is beginning to be some discussion in the U.S. gov't chambers about easing travel & investment restrictions for Cuba.
On the other hand, what do WACCO people think about Ortega in Nicaragua, who has evidently re-immersed himself in old school Catholicism, endorsing Nicaragua's new draconian abortion laws?
Not surprising really, the whole region is religionist. Costa Rica has even banned In Vitro Fertilization! Daniel's doing what most men do - becoming socially-conservative as he ages. Count blessings that he's not becoming politically totalitarian at the same time. (fingers crossed)
Tars
https://www.rpriddle.com/avatar/worried_125.jpg
Sonomamark
01-21-2007, 11:48 PM
For starters, his pushing a bill through the legislature (dominated by his party) which entitles him to legislate by decree for the next several months. That's the definition of a dictator.
Then there is the refusal to renew the broadcasting license of a media station which has been critical of him.
Between these two events, that pretty well covers the ground.
MG
"he is rapidly turning himself into a dictator, above the law, without checks and balances, and stifling dissent."
Yo Mark,
These are strong accusations. What is your factual evidence for them? I read the MSM (PD and Sunday NYT's) and there has been concern expressed about him re-nationalizing telecommunications and some other major industries the nature of which I'm spacing at the moment.
But I have not seen any accusations of stifling dissent, being above the law, creating a dictatorship, etc.
Belay that, he is accused of those things by the upper-middle classes in Venezuela, but as for actual moves, made by him and his party... It looks to be hysteria because he's shaking things up along the lines I adumbrate below.
Please let us know what actions of Chavez's, specifically, you are referring to?
"M"M
"Mad" Miles
01-22-2007, 12:49 PM
For starters, his pushing a bill through the legislature (dominated by his party) which entitles him to legislate by decree for the next several months. That's the definition of a dictator.Then there is the refusal to renew the broadcasting license of a media station which has been critical of him.
Between these two events, that pretty well covers the ground."
Thanks for your succinct response Mark,
I'm pretty sure that you and I agree about our opposition to Marxist-Leninist forms of dictatorship, and to the extent that Hugo C. is part of that tradition I agree with your concerns.
Back in the early eighties I was critical of the Sandinistas for their "in your face Yankee" attitude towards their big imperialist neighbor to the North. The way I put it was, "You don't spit in the face of an insane, angry giant and expect to walk away unscathed." But they persisted, with predictable results.
Of course it was/is much more complicated than that. Who's to say Reagan still wouldn't have funded the Contras with secret arms sales proceeds (and cocaine running?) with the Iranian Islamic Republican revolutionaries, even if Ortega and friends had kissed his ass?
As for Chavez's threatened dictatorship, my understanding from reading the NYT's and Slate is that his request to a legislature that his party dominates (because they won repeated elections) for rule by decree is not unprecedented in Venezuelan (and Latin American) history. But usually it is only claimed in times of crisis.
But I still don't know how this is, "Socialism at the point of a gun"? It seems more like Socialism at the point of overwhelming popular support to me.
I'd hate to be a South American president trying to negotiate my way between the demands of capital from El Norte (Neo-Liberalism, Trade and Aid Debt, Free Trade efforts to make domestic markets open to foreign capital investment, a history of resentment towards U.S. manipulation of my country and neighbors - often at the point of a gun, etc.) and domestic needs and demands for social equity and poverty alleviation.
As for the Venezuelan media, they have been rabidly against him since day one. The groups that own the media are the old elite. They rail against Chavez constantly and he's done nothing to suppress them (til now? The licensing issue is one I'll have to check out.) His response is to use popular forms to reach the poor and let the "mainstream" Venezuelan media keep ranting. This is as it should be, although it is a form of tolerance rare in Latin American history. Allende allowed the press to vilify him and his movement, and look where it got him.
An interesting question, as I heard it raised on Democracy Now a couple of weeks ago, is how will Chavez and friends continue his social reforms and aid efforts if the oil market stagnates and the social and economic aid programs he is currently funding are no longer viable?
The commentator pointed out that his record spending increases are just keeping pace (if not advancing slightly beyond) Venezuela's record income from selling us oil. If the gravy train hiccups, then we might see what real tendencies toward undemocratic dictatorship he may have, or not.
As for his close relationship with Fidel, I'm no fan of Fidel, and Hugo comes off as a sychophant. But I think that has more to do with the history of the Cuban M-L's holding out in the face of U.S. opposition, blockade, invasion, sabotage and general nastiness for so many years. And in spite of being a dictatorship that suppresses criticism, homosexuality and democracy (all reasons to think there has to be a better way for Cuba) they do have one of the best cared for and educated populaces in Latin America, while being blockaded by us for the last forty-five years or so. That's nothing to sneeze at.
So, yes I'm a radical Democrat who subsumes all other goals beneath the goal of maximum personal and political freedom. In fact our beef about the Democratic Party vs. The Green Party is motivated by my ideological commitment to direct democracy.
But I'm enough of a student of history to see that others do not necessarily share my commitment to radical democracy in the same way, and I try to understand their motivations as well. A history of poverty, exploitation and undemocratic manipulation in the name of "Freedom" might incline me to make different choices than I currently make.
I try to evaluate Hugo and his Bolivarian Revolution in the terms that he sets. And by those terms he's done a lot of good while honoring their electoral process. If he was just a bloody-minded would-be military dictator he would have made different moves in the past. He was overthrown a few years ago (at "our" behest apparently) and instead of mounting a violent revolution, as he easily could have, he waited out his opposition and let popular opinion and the legal process determine the day. I give him mad props for that one!
Let the discussion continue...or not.
"M"M
:vali:
"Mad" Miles
01-23-2007, 04:21 PM
Apropos this thread/discussion, check out the responses to Mickey Z on Dissident Voice:
https://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan07/MickeyZ23.htm