Discussions with Trump supporters [Archive]

kburgess

08-13-2019, 01:34 PM

Ken, I really appreciate your ability to consider feedback and respond like this. You sound like you are probably a really nice guy who somehow does not perceive the Trumpsters as the heartless jerks that many of the rest of us do. I had that feeling about Ray, too. I'm very interested in trying to understand people like you, and that's why I'm so happy that you and other people with a more right wing point of view have been daring to post on this mostly leftist site. Share on!Hi Folks,
I appreciate your comments and support. Sometimes I wonder how much and where this community picks up their news. I do not consider myself Right or Left, but more just trying to be a common sense conservative and transparent free market systems thinker and unfortunately all of the politics of the world clogs up the gears of a well running financial economy.

We have never truly had Free-Markets, since there is so little genuine transparent price discovery in the system, No non-Fiat currency, and no ability for the public to truly have financial and economic stats that reflect any semblance of reality. These are the things that in my mind have to get resolved first as all of this distortion has been taking place for over 40 years and Trump is just the hatchet man to try to restore some sense of health and transparency into the system. Unfortunately when you set a broken bone, it hurts in the process and that is what all of the media loves to harp on.

Is he perfect, no, he has been sabotaged by lousy advisors, war mongers and congress that has suicidal intentions just to keep him from succeeding. Could we/this country be in a MUCH better place in a few years, absolutely, but it will NOT be from any program or idea that the left has or ever will support. They just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people.

It is great to hate DJT and make all sorts of comments and bad jokes about him, but if you have a job, you can thank him, and it is highly doubtful that we would have any level of the peace in the world that we have now if HRC had gotten in.

Finally I do not see or hear any of you putting out positive suggestions or candidates that would work vs just complaining about what you do not like. If you have good ideas, then present them, but just flaming because it feels good provides no value whatsoever.

There is a LOT of truth that will come out with the FISA memo, the Barr investigation and the unraveling of the Epstein situation. Too bad that he died, but I suspect that there were too many people who could not bear to let him live. Will be curious to see how much his death actually gets investigated or just swept away. The EO that Trump put in on the seizure of assets of people involved with human trafficking was huge in 12/2016?, as it is the primary entrapment tool that Epstein and his many accomplices and clones use to control and spread the filth of DC and the media. It is used for blackmail and control.

I hope that in the next year starting soon, all this material will start to bare fruit. There is so much more behind the situation that most people never see. As for all of the hate speech that I hear that you all say about Trump, I listen to his speeches and just do not see it. As for all of the kids and cages at the border, that has been going on for years and started before Obama, so not exclusively a DJT thing, but the organizing of caravans to overwhelm the border is a new thing, and DT is just trying to make sense of it all w/o letting the in wholesale.

There is only one set of true facts, but lots of opinions on those facts, so it matters where we get our source info. I maybe wrong with this all, but this has been a LONG term trend of degradation starting around when Reagan was elected, but not tied to him and then really accelerated during Bill C.

Enough for now,
Your comments and thoughts of clarification/suggestion are most appreciated,
Many thanks,
Be Well,
Ken.

Barry

08-13-2019, 05:51 PM

..I do not consider myself Right or Left, but more just trying to be a common sense conservative

Hi Ken,

Thanks for reaching out. I would definitely consider you Right and I'm not so sure sure about the common sense bit :wink:. I'd put George Will in that category, who I respect, if don't agree with, and who also doesn't support Trump.

if you have a job, you can thank himPerhaps. I hasn't screwed up the recovery that Obama started... so far. The most significant economic thing Trump has done was to support the Republican tax cut, which provided a large fiscal stimulus to the economy (mostly to the already wealthy) that was supposed to pay for itself, but instead is hemorrhaging the deficit (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-12/u-s-budget-deficit-already-exceeds-last-year-s-total-figure). I actually don't put the majority of blame on Trump for that one, though. I see it as his part of a Faustian bargain he made with congressional Republicans to support their greedy tax cut agenda, in exchange for their support. I'm sure the fact that it would goose the economy (and deficit) in the short term to get him re-elected wasn't lost on him, and he hopefully wont be around to clean up the deficit mess.

He's done other economic things that perhaps has moved the needle, including rolling back lots of environmental protections for the sake for fossil fuel company profits and perhaps lower energy prices while again dumping the true costs on the environment for some future administration (coming soon!) to clean up.

What I do give Trump credit for is very effectively positioning himself as the champion of all the people left behind as the economy and society changes. The only problem is that he doesn't bring anything that really helps other than creating scapegoats for his supporters to blame everything on. He's a first class fear-mongerer... and when people are fearful they are easily controlled and manipulated.

podfish

08-13-2019, 05:59 PM

... I do not consider myself Right or Left, but more just trying to be a common sense conservative and transparent free market systems thinker and unfortunately all of the politics of the world clogs up the gears of a well running financial economy.I think you're kind of on the right, regardless of what you prefer to consider yourself, at least by most ways people characterize right & left.

We have never truly had Free-Markets, since .... These are the things that in my mind have to get resolved first as all of this distortion has been taking place for over 40 years and Trump is just the hatchet man to try to restore some sense of health and transparency into the system. ......
Is he perfect, no, he has been sabotaged by lousy advisors, war mongers and congress that has suicidal intentions just to keep him from succeeding. and here we reach a key difference in world view. We've never truly "had Free-Markets, since ..." forever. It's a fiction that's useful for thought experiments. The elements that they need aren't possible when you have evolved monkeys running things. It's a miracle that some monkeys can do abstract analysis of systems, but none of them actually implement them as designed. Free markets require things like transparency and accurate assignment of costs in a way that can't happen organically.

So the idea that it's slipped from some better state I think is indefensible. Also baffling to me is the idea that Trump is in any way going to remove what you see as artificial distortions. Look at his business history - he's exploited the system as well as he can, using lawsuits and unethical business practices at every turn. If you consider blowing up regulation to be improvement, thinking that free markets don't need regulation, I think you're wrong. He uses deregulation as a means to push costs that he should incur out to the general public by despoiling the environment and allowing for monopolistic controls. He hasn't been sabotaged in his quest to achieve noble goals, he's been opposed by two groups: one, other equally slimy people who want to do what he's doing, and then those who want to protect the rights and opportunities of the community at large.

The closest we get to free markets is to have unconstrained corporations and people who already have wealth. Unfortunately, the poorest actually don't have enough economic value in a free market system to pry wealth from those who have accumulated it. Things like Facebook extract immense amounts of money from massive amounts of people and concentrate it among very few. There's no mechanism for returning any of that money. It's not some virtuous cycle any more, if it ever was, where the mine-owners compete for the services of their miners and return some of the earnings generated by their work, added to by the organizational capabilities of the owners, back to the workers. And, if you look at your history, even then it didn't work worth a damn.

kburgess

08-13-2019, 09:15 PM

The elephant in the room of the economy has nothing to do with China, trade, or regulations, but is all about the Federal debt. We are around 120% debt to GDP and we have some major interest rate inversion on the yield curve and about 1 day away from the 2yr bond being greater than the 20yr bond. This is a key sign that we are headed for a major recession, and printing more money will not get us out of this one. We are in Deep-Shit!!!

What he has been trying to do is to keep it all afloat a little longer so that he can do the right thing that no one ever talks about and that is to nationalize the Fed, and put us back on an asset backed dollar such as having it pegged to gold. Gold is currently around $1400/oz, but if it was not so supressed it would be over $10k/oz and probably higher. This is a bit of speculation, but if you look between the lines it seems that is what he is trying to do.

How many of you might be aware of this stuff??

If not, then there is a bigger picture that you are missing.

As far as you trying to enlighten me, I am always open to conversation, but so far I have not heard any better ideas or options to counterpoint what he has been doing.

I do not think that you are fully aware on the level of Deep-Trouble we have been in for the last 20yrs in the realm of monetary policy, economic policy, and systemic corruption of politics.

How about voter ID and a more active program to eliminate the 2 party tyranny. That would be a great start. How about a line item veto so that the pres can get rid of all the horrendous riders that get attached to all the bills that get floated through.

Unfortunately politics does have to get played no matter who is in office, so what is the choice???
Any valid answers would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Ken.

kburgess

08-13-2019, 09:34 PM

Yes we do have monkeys running the system, but that is not the intelligence of the small towns. Among us people of the community, we believe in and follow free markets and they do work. Unfortunately when we get mega $T's of money from unlimited printing and no genuine transparency, it all falls apart. I am not against regulation, because we do need the referee and cop to keep the exchanges in line, but it is the Transparency that is key for all of that to work. Equities are regulated, Bonds are regulated, but Derivatives are the wild west, and with unlimited printing, that market is many times the size of the other 2 combined. Thus we have a system that is ripe for chaos which is exactly what we have and the time is coming very soon where it is going to all come crashing down HARD!!!

Keep your head in the sand at your own peril, but the math of the system does not lie, and if nothing revolutionary is done, we will be in some Deep-Shit very soon.

Is that the end of the story, I believe that there are and have been plans behind the scenes to stay off this disaster and put us on a right course that could bring forth a HUGE transformation of the planet in a very short time. Do I have hard evidence of this, no, but I do know that none of this situation of doom is new, and that everyone prior to Trump has just lined their own pockets, dumped the debt on to the people, and gotten out before the potato burned their hand. Unfortunately 2016 was the last chance that the patriots in the system had to turn the ship around, and it is a BIG ship, cannot be done easily. Thus he came in with a huge load ahead of him, and as he has said, he did not have to run for pres, and could have easily just continued with his business and be successful. I do take him at his word much more than any other dork that has been in office. And Obama was the one that said that we should get used to a new normal of minimal economic growth. What an idiot!!!

If I am right, we will know within the next few months and then in his 2nd term, If I am wrong then so be it. All I know is that to be fore-warned is to be fore-armed, and to avoid preparing is not smart.

Do not take my word on it, go listen to Cathrine Austin Fitts, X22, Greg Hunter, SGT Report, Robert Steele and others spend all of their time trying to wake the sleepers from their daze.

I do believe that the global leaders ALL understand the severity of the situation and that they can no longer kick the can down the road, and so HAVE come to some type of agreement NOT to destroy the planet and take some level of productive responsibility. I want that to be true, so yes, I do trust that the benevolent leaders of this planet do have a plan.
Time will tell,
Be Well,
Ken.

I think you're kind of on the right,...

podfish

08-13-2019, 09:45 PM

kburgess

08-13-2019, 10:33 PM

All valid perspectives,
So what is Your solution to the situation???

monkeys aren't just the bad guys. None of us can claim to be totally free of our monkey brains. ...

podfish

08-14-2019, 08:32 AM

All valid perspectives,
So what is Your solution to the situation???Glad you asked! no-one else seems to care :wink:

seriously, I'm no more qualified than Trump to try to impose solutions. And that's one of the big problems with him. He advertises himself somewhat honestly as a bull-in-a-china-shop, break things and see if they get better. For some reason that appeals to many who see things as needing breaking. I take an engineer's perspective: when things are broken, re-evaluate the goals of the system, figure out the forces that impact its function, and try to restructure the system to account for its previous failures. Many of these goals can be agreed on by most people, and many of the forces are equally non-controversial. If you don't like the engineer analogy, use judo instead. Usually you get better results by guiding rather than opposing these forces.

It's too easy to go on too long when you invite me to rant, but here's a few things:

get rid of trump and those who support his philosophy. They break things in a way that makes a quality replacement harder to find. They destroy previous attempts at upgrading the systems (e.g. environmental protections, health care) without providing a replacement. It's like busting out your windshield while driving because it's getting covered in mud. You'll find you now are getting mud in your eyes, which is arguably worse.
Yang has some really good observations. We have an economic system that still has vestiges of when the kings owned everything including their subjects, and a legal system based on property rights. New people (e.g. our children) must create new things to have anything. That's great in many ways, but pretty much ignores things like, they're not creating more land in Sonoma County. That's a bit unfair, in favor of those of us already here. And with the knowledge economy it's now hugely distorted. Zuckerberg's wealth comes at a price to the rest of us in the system. Also, our soon-to-arrive robot overlords will be able to produce things that their human neighbors can use, so they might as well be charitable. Seriously, even one hundred years ago they realized that 'work' will be more a psychological, therefore a moral, necessity than a practical one. Why medicine, food, and lodging is denied to those who aren't a good fit for our culture is beyond me. That's a terrible way to enforce conformity.
So: try to put people with humanitarian impulses into power; try to push for more transparency and more attention to corruption - but not at the expense of innocent bystanders; and don't forget that in our system, there are tons of people who are sure they're right even though they're crazy, and their votes count too. Make sure they get some cookies too, or at least make sure there are some harmless squirrels they can chase.

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 10:46 AM

You say the LEFT has violence in their hearts?! So what does the Right have in their hearts? Cuts for Medicare, whopping tax cuts for millionaires, loathing non-white immigrants, snatching children away from their poor and desperate families, and on and on... This is sweetness and love? And who is more violent and angry than Donald Trump? What planet are you living on, cyberanvil??
Physical violence is quite different than any perceived policy. I guess you missed Maxine Waters talk of a call to arms? I guess you missed the gentleman on MSNBC calling for pitchforks and torches. Hummmm?
“Pitchforks & Torches” Outside Trump Supporters House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEv8_Kgma5o

occihoff

08-14-2019, 01:13 PM

Okay, so just for "fairness and balance," please list now the mean things Trump and the current Republicans have been doing.

Physical violence is quite different than any perceived policy. I guess you missed Maxine Waters talk of a call to arms? I guess you missed the gentleman on MSNBC calling for pitchforks and torches. Hummmm?
“Pitchforks & Torches” Outside Trump Supporters House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEv8_Kgma5o

occihoff

08-14-2019, 01:37 PM

Interesting to hear your points of view, Ken, but to dismiss the Left by declaring that "they just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people" is way over the line of reasoned discourse!

... Could we/this country be in a MUCH better place in a few years, absolutely, but it will NOT be from any program or idea that the left has or ever will support. They just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people....

occihoff

08-14-2019, 02:19 PM

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 03:28 PM

Interesting to hear your points of view, Ken, but to dismiss the Left by declaring that "they just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people" is way over the line of reasoned discourse!

have you conveyed this to the Democratic candidates? At present, reasoned discourse seems to be missing. Label, attack,condemn, pontificate.:stoptheinsane:

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 03:33 PM

Okay, so just for "fairness and balance," please list now the mean things Trump and the current Republicans have been doing.

Are you not a better judge? Hummm. Well they have been drawing attention to the fact that Biden's biggest achievement is to have been Obama's VP. They have drawn attention to his being wrong on most issues. "Please Mr. President, don't shoot that Osama man." ha ha

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 03:38 PM

kburgess

08-14-2019, 04:39 PM

Those are all good generalized suggestions, but unless there are specifics, they are tough to quantify.
The idea of 'Getting in better people' is great, but who???

I think that you are operating from the assumption that our system basically works and that Trump is destroying that good thing. I think that perspective is massively flawed. Our system has been fundamentally broken for a VERY long time, but has been continually operating with the illusion of success, when it has just been running on borrowed time.

Trump is here to break it down and start again with as much of a managed process vs a chaotic one via depression, war, etc. Sort of like a military basic training for new recruits. No one said that it would be easy, but for those of us who understand the depth of the rot, we realize that it may be required.

In one of my previous posts I layed out some specific things that I think would help immensely. I try to look at the facts, present them, and then look at the suite of potential solutions. I too am an engineer and realize that only by getting ALL the fact and being able to define the REAL problem can a solution be realized.

All of this is speculation on both of our sides, but I have followed this behind the scene's type world for over 20 years and know that very little real news ever gets out to the masses. That is why I listen to the names that I have previously mentioned.

Your ideas are a good start, but for action to start it needs to be a lot more than general concepts and as far as you needing to be asked for ideas, please feel free to present them at will.

Here are some links for good sources,
Thanks,
Ken.
https://robertdavidsteele.com/
(https://robertdavidsteele.com/)https://home.solari.com/
(https://home.solari.com/)https://www.corbettreport.com/
(https://www.corbettreport.com/)https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
(https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html)https://www.gurufocus.com/yield_curve.php
(https://www.gurufocus.com/yield_curve.php)

Glad you asked! no-one else seems to care :wink:...

podfish

08-14-2019, 04:41 PM

in response to the comment: "You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! " you get this:

You are obviously building a number of Strawmen. Why don't you separate heartfelt disdain from factual matter?

Geeze! You actually want me to load your gun?

and this from Ken, earlier
As for all of the hate speech that I hear that you all say about Trump, I listen to his speeches and just do not see it.

If trumpy's supporters really can't hear it in his speech and see it in his actions, but think my calling him 'trumpy' is clear indication that I hate the bastard, I think we're only faking a discussion. When someone can identify rhetorical tricks such as posing a straw-man argument but don't feel able to spot intent in public diatribes, they're pretty much unable to see the same underlying facts. (and that's a legitimate use of the term, dammit. His spoken words establish the facts of his attitudes to an extent satisfactory to the legally-fictional 'reasonable person')

kburgess

08-14-2019, 04:46 PM

As I have posted before, it is the POLITICAL-ESTABLISHMENT that does not have the public's best interest in heart, and the Left is just a LOT more vocal and has the power of the media to enforce its agenda. Both sides make equally idiotic decisions and finally DJT is someone who is less of the career political class than anyone else.

Perfect, no, but much better because he has a lot less entrapments on him once he can unravel all the layers of BS attacks/accusations that he has been dealing with for the last 2 years.
Ken.

Interesting to hear your points of view, Ken, but to dismiss the Left by declaring that "they just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people" is way over the line of reasoned discourse!

podfish

08-14-2019, 04:56 PM

weird that I have so much time today. I hope that stops soon...

Those are all good generalized suggestions, but unless there are specifics, they are tough to quantify.
The idea of 'Getting in better people' is great, but who???

I think that you are operating from the assumption that our system basically works and that Trump is destroying that good thing.......then I've totally failed to explain myself. No, the system sucks. He's just an idiot who thinks that after breaking it, things will be better. Actually that's not fair -- he's trying to exploit its weaknesses, and making allies out of people who think that breaking it will be better.
Trump is here to break it down and start again with as much of a managed processnothing backs up the idea he has any plan to create any "managed process" about anything. No-one (but him) has ever claimed he has those kind of skills, nothing in his history shows it. Look at his businesses in any detail and find one that's succeeded in anything more than letting him extract cash - they don't succeed for his partners or for society as a whole. Trump U, for example
In one of my previous posts I layed out some specific things that I think would help immensely. I try to look at the facts, present them, and then look at the suite of potential solutions. I too am an engineer and realize that only by getting ALL the fact and being able to define the REAL problem can a solution be realized.then you are falling into the stereotypical problem of engineers. Remember Jimmy Carter? In college we learned this informally- bringing 'engineering thinking' to interactions with people is a great way to lose girlfriends and be unpopular at parties. You can't start over clean in our world, you can't understand all the factors, identifying clear, logical solutions is a great path to irrelevance as a politician. That's not where anything starts. My other posts should make this clear, I have little interest except over beers (ok, this is similar, but I still don't really care) in "specific solutions".

So, locally then, solve homelessness. Trump can! he'd crack down on the losers. If you think anyone will offer a 'solution' you really haven't paid any attention. There is no 'solution' - nothing will 'work' in an engineering sense. We need people working to find housing, help sometimes unwilling people with survival skills, find ways they have access to resources they need, keep them out of the way of people who just don't want to see them, don't spend any 'government money', ad nauseam. This is one, local problem. There are zillions, and none have a solution in an engineering sense. Actually, they might: nature's engineering is pretty good - look at anthills and other emergent systems. Problem is, nature has a tendency to use things like pain and death and carnivores in its systems. We'd like to do better.

kburgess

08-14-2019, 04:58 PM

I see a man who has been horrendously accused and hampered for the last 2 years with relentless attack and misrepresentation and yes, if you were in that situation, I suspect that you would not last long, and if you did, you would be a little bit pissed.

This COUNTRY elected him, and the Left has been doing everything possible to disqualify him and that election. Clearly CA is not the State that elected him, and there are a LOT of people that love what he is doing. Go talk to them and find out the world that they are living in, and how he is speaking for them. They are NOT stupid, but they are also not CA, NY, or OR or any other deep blue State.

I am not going to respond to every little issue because I have a life to life and it is not with Wacco, although I do enjoy having a place to organize my thoughts on the matter.

I suspect that a LOT of the basis behind the tax cuts was to appease the R's so that he could at least get a few things done. You must think that politics is a clean business, it is clearly not, and I suspect that he has had to sacrifice a LOT to just get the support to stay in office. Hopefully 2020 will give us another 4 years and a stronger House and Senate so that we can make a bit more headway in the mess.

This is the reality of a very dirty and corrupt system, and not some ideological world where we think that we actually get to see the truth of the situation. We do not and he is in a rotten position trying to clean out the cesspool that he is neck deep in for the benefit of the people who elected him, and yes, I am one of those people.
Ken.

ps- I may be wrong on some of my perspectives, but I do know that DJT is a world better than the other option at the time. We did not have a multi-choice, it was BINARY, and sometimes a binary choice sucks because it does not give you the level of choice and variety that comes close to representing the needs of the country. The original intent of the Founding-Fathers was to have the States manage the majority of the personal affairs of peoples lives and the Federal side just those areas that States could not address. Take a look at the Declaration and Constitution and read it to refresh yourself on what this country was founded on.

You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! It's hard to respond to that one, Ken. But how about his actual policies? I wish you would respond to my comment to cyberanvil listing just a few of his most salient policies such as huge tax cuts for the rich, disdain for the poor, etc,etc.

occihoff

08-14-2019, 06:46 PM

Cyberanvil, instead of being so snarky, why can't you actually answer my specific questions regarding the things the Trumpsters are doing that seem so mean and cruel to many of us?

You are obviously building a number of Strawmen. Why don't you separate heartfelt disdain from factual matter?

Geeze! You actually want me to load your gun?

occihoff

08-14-2019, 07:12 PM

I mentioned several Trump and Republican policies that seem horrendously cruel to me, and like cyberanvil you just don't address them. (Although unlike cyberanvil you are never snarky.) I'm not asking you to waste your time on lengthy discourses, just tell us, for example, why increasing tax breaks for the very rich and raising the national debt while trying to cut Medicare for the poor is not cruel and greedy. Or why oppressing desperate and impoverished asylum seekers while living your life of wealth and luxury is not cruel. I respect your points of view, but I can't afford to waste my scarce time discussing things with people who won't respond to my very fundamental and specific questions.

I see a man who has been horrendously accused and hampered for the last 2 years ...

kburgess

08-14-2019, 07:15 PM

I recognize that almost all of us live in our self created bubbles of reality,
That which feel comfortable is that which is most familiar and non-threatening and we generally defend our ability to stay there. Thus voluntarily swallowing the Red-Pill is not all that common unless your desire to get beyond deception is greater than your desire to stay comfortable.

The people that I have listed as sources for info are a great place to start, and any YT search you will find them. I do not follow them every day, but have been familiar with that style of behind the scenes thinking since 911 and my first real intro to it all w/Michael Ruppert, since passed. He opened my eyes to all of the planned intentionality behind 911 and it has only gotten better from there.

Before you make more comments on what I have to say, take a look at some of those references and recognize that these are all independent thinkers who are also dedicated to revealing the truth regardless on where it might lead. Not all are Trump supporting clones, and some are critical of him, but all see that his role is absolutely ESSENTIAL to restoring the true foundation of what the USA was brought into existence for.

It is up to US to truly represent the voice of freedom and usher in the next age of human civilization because no one else is here to do it. We are the only ones, He was selected for this task by the military patriots who saw the choice ahead of them, and could not bear to have our planet destroyed for the sake of a bunch of psychopathic egomaniacs.

Just my thoughts,
Be Well,
Thanks
Ken.

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 07:44 PM

If trumpy's supporters really can't hear it in his speech and see it in his actions, but think my calling him 'trumpy' is clear indication that I hate the bastard, I think we're only faking a discussion....Ah Haw! Buried in you eloquent response is that Democratic buzzword "hate". You "hate the bastard". Hate is such a elemental state. It's politics man! It's not the end of the world. Sooner or later the Democrats will have their day. At one time Obummer had both houses, but I didn't hate. I intensely disliked Obummer, but I never degenerated into hate. You were doing so good and then the hate thing. In my mind, you've lost some credibility. Hate skews truth.

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 07:56 PM

We need people working to find housing, help sometimes unwilling people with survival skills, find ways they have access to resources they need, keep them out of the way of people who just don't want to see them, don't spend any 'government money', ad nauseam.
The problem with Democrats is that, well they are Democrats. Endless critiques and no/few specifics. I suppose Warren and Yang come close. But their solutions have some pretty big holes.
Easy to shoot from the outside. and where were you when Obama had total control? There will pie in the sky when the Dems get control. Really? Tell Elijah to wake up.

BALTIMORE CALLING!!!

FACT CHECKING President Trumps Statements On Baltimore & Democrat Elijah Cummings district:

*ALLEGATION: Baltimore is considered the worst-run city in America.
*ANALYSIS: True. The BBC featured the city in a scathing report on poverty in America. At least 25 percent of the people in Cummings' congressional district live in poverty. "If you want to know what poverty in America looks like, well this is it," the BBC reporter declared.
*ALLEGATION: Baltimore is infested with rats and rodents.
*ANALYSIS: True. According to Orkin Pest Control, Baltimore is one of the most rat-infested cities in America. The pest control company ranks Baltimore No. 6 on its list. All of the Top 10 most rat-infested cities are controlled by Democrats, by the way
*ALLEGATION: Baltimore is a filthy mess.
*ANALYSIS: True. In April the Baltimore Sun Editorial Board called out the city's trashy reputation. "Food containers, balled up clothes, paper, banana peels, plastic bags and tons of other pieces of litter line the shoulders of roads, pile up in alleys and are strewn across fields and yards,” an editorial in the newspaper said
*ALLEGATION: Baltimore is a dangerous city.
*ANALYSIS: True. Baltimore is deadlier than Chicago and Detroit, according to crime statistics released by the FBI, and had the highest homicide rate in the nation in 2018, USA Today reports.
*FINAL ANALYSIS: President Trump was absolutely correct to call Maryland's 7th Congressional District a "disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess." The truth is that what’s happening in places like Baltimore has nothing to do with race. But it has everything to do with politics and inept Democratic lawmakers who have turned their backs on their most vulnerable.
Baltimore - Mayor Catherine Pugh says you can smell the rats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHVK82uCPEw

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 08:03 PM

Cyberanvil, instead of being so snarky, why can't you actually answer my specific questions regarding the things the Trumpsters are doing that seem so mean and cruel to many of us?

Why do you assume yourself to be the speaker of truth? Or here is an easier one, I don't agree with you and your attempts to set yourself up for a grand reveal. Why don't you just come out with it. What if I don't think Trump is mean and cruel? Where does that leave you?

juna

08-14-2019, 08:04 PM

Ken,

Do you support drilling in national parks
or near water sources?
Do you support the ivory trade?
Do you support killing safaris of our wildlife?
Do you support killing of bears, wolves, and wild horses?
Do you support weakening laws on protecting endangered species?
Do you support separating parents and babies?
Do you support government officials making derogatory slurs against other countries
or our cities?

Just wondering.

Juna
Trump administration plans to drastically weaken law protecting endangered species

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 08:11 PM

I mentioned several Trump and Republican policies that seem horrendously cruel to me, and like cyberanvil you just don't address them. (Although unlike cyberanvil you are never snarky.) I'm not asking you to waste your time on lengthy discourses, just tell us, for example, why increasing tax breaks for the very rich and raising the national debt while trying to cut Medicare for the poor is not cruel and greedy. Or why oppressing desperate and impoverished asylum seekers while living your life of wealth and luxury is not cruel. ...You'd get better responses if you dropped all the buzz words. No need to add those Kool-Aid inspired adjectives. Btw, snarky is my good side. :thumbsup:

Ashley Judd is a Nasty Woman. 411 -- I'm a Nasty Man.

I am a nasty woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8IApUwjHU8

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 08:24 PM

Ken,

Do you support drilling in national parks
or near water sources?
Do you support the ivory trade?
Do you support killing safaris of our wildlife?..
These "Gotcha" questions are hilarious and at the same time sad. How can any discussion proceed with these kind of obviously false/misleading and agenda driven questions? You know the answers that you're looking for. So just spit out your spill.
How many times do you beat your wife? Is this what we're reduced to?

podfish

08-14-2019, 08:27 PM

Ah Haw! Buried in you eloquent response is that Democratic buzzword "hate". You "hate the bastard".dude, really? you think that was an accidental slip of the tongue? or an inadvertent reveal of my true feelings after all? I won't claim it's all that eloquent of a response, but it's not intended to be read without some sense of context either. If you're happy with 'gotcha', go to town with it.

cyberanvil

08-14-2019, 08:43 PM

dude, really? you think that was an accidental slip of the tongue? or an inadvertent reveal of my true feelings after all? I won't claim it's all that eloquent of a response, but it's not intended to be read without some sense of context either. If you're happy with 'gotcha', go to town with it.

Accidental? Nah, it was your inner truth, I knew that. Context needed??? Yea, sure. Sounds like TDS (https://www.dictionary.com/e/acronyms/tds/) to me.

Liberal Tears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?=zOnI_6NhR2o&list=PL4k16X62ciwJ3xbK4gJqpqShmmMHktqUk&index=14&t=0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOnI_6NhR2o&list=PL4k16X62ciwJ3xbK4gJqpqShmmMHktqUk&index=14&t=0s)

kburgess

08-14-2019, 10:37 PM

Hi Juna,
No I do not support most of them, but that is not the reason I voted for or would not vote for him.
I very much support environmental protection and clean energy and that was a bit concern with his campaign, but I figured that what he was claiming to do over ruled the downside, and lets face it all other Pres's have had a much worse track record for completing campaign promises than DJT, like those promises or not.
Thanks,
Ken.

...Do you support drilling in national parks
or near water sources?...

kburgess

08-14-2019, 10:49 PM

You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! It's hard to respond to that one, Ken. But how about his actual policies? I wish you would respond to my comment to cyberanvil listing just a few of his most salient policies such as huge tax cuts for the rich, disdain for the poor, etc,etc.Not exactly sure what you want me to respond to, the tax cut were for everyone and I suspect that he had to throw in some goodies to make sure that it passed and got support for the next 2 years.

As for the issues with the poor, not sure what you are talking about. He is trying to end sanctuary cities which is good, and stop the mass migration over the border by putting a more fair and just immigration system. Maybe go talk to Nancy as she is the one roadblocking it all and causing the real damage in that situation. The caravans are organized events to fund all the folks to leave their country and overwhelm our borders so that the Dems can have a much larger voter base so long as we do not require voter ID. Very bad. Outside of that, if we are going to do anything it should be to help stabilize the countries on our southern sides and keep them from coming up in the first place.

Do you open your door to any person who needs food and a place to stay?
Why should we! As he says, it is to be based on merit and not just a free for all.
Thanks,
Ken.

Valley Oak

08-15-2019, 10:41 AM

Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time. They live in an alternate reality of "facts." It is not possible to reason with unreasonable people. You cannot reason with racist, homophobic, misogynistic, superstitious barbarians who don't believe in democracy or the most basic of human rights. They want a permanently White America and anyone who is not a straight WASP like them is instinctively hated as the "other" or the enemy. That is exactly what Trump has done with immigrants and other minorities. And Republican voters have bought this administration's lies and misinformation hook, line, and sinker because they are indeed racist themselves.

This shameful administration is the last gasp of the American Right Wing! Enjoy it while it lasts because Trump is going to lose by a landslide in 2020, guaranteed.

podfish

08-15-2019, 11:14 AM

Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time. They live in an alternate reality of "facts." It is not possible to reason with unreasonable people. ...I'm with you on some of that. I (obviously) don't have a big concern about wasting time.

But not all trumpies are completely in Hillary's group of deplorables. Or unreasonable - 'reason' is a tool that can be used for good or ill. Sometimes it's true you're hammering on cheese. The part I struggle to understand is the idea that was well expressed, actually several times, that trump and his supporters "may not be racists (or ...) but they sure are comfortable with those who are".

As seen on this thread, some seem to be able to look right past the biblical beam in their eye and find the mote in others'. I don't recognize the trump they describe. They haven't been able to - or to be fair again, to have tried - to explain why the trump we see isn't the trump that exists. That's where the waste of time comes in to me. We get what seems to be purely imaginary representations of what trump wants to do and how he sees the world. Sadly this exposes what I've come to see as 'symmetry' - I know that they could write the same words aimed the other way, and firmly believe that it counts as reason.

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 11:41 AM

Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time...Does this mean that you'll not be playing here anymore? :tear:

occihoff

08-15-2019, 12:55 PM

That leaves me with the same request I have made with Ken and Ron and you: please answer the specific questions I have been asking you. I have given repeated examples of some of the most egregious things the Trumpsters have done that appear to many of us as mean and cruel. So why don't you just tell us why they don't seem mean and cruel to you? And why are you so hostile and disrespectful to me?

Why do you assume yourself to be the speaker of truth? Or here is an easier one, I don't agree with you and your attempts to set yourself up for a grand reveal. Why don't you just come out with it. What if I don't think Trump is mean and cruel? Where does that leave you?

occihoff

08-15-2019, 01:04 PM

But I still want to come to a deeper understanding of their attitudes and psychology. And all right wingers are not necessarily the same. People like Ken and Ron don't come across to me as mean and cruel. They sincerely want to communicate, and that makes me even more curious to understand them. Cyberanvil is another matter, but I'm still curious about her.
Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time. ....

occihoff

08-15-2019, 01:26 PM

I totally agree with you that we should help stabilize the countries on our southern sides! I think the horrible conditions there are what drive desperate people to throng to the US, where they know very well it will be no picnic. And what meddling are we doing in those countries to contribute to the awfulness?

But your idea that the Democrats will have a much larger voting base doesn't make sense to me. As people become citizens over time this is probably true, especially as Republican policies are sure not deigned to win converts with these folks! But most of these people will not be able to become citizens for a long time.

Your notion that the tax cuts were for everyone is absolutely contrary to everything I have heard. The biggest tax cuts by far are for rich people like Trump and his friends who are already bloated with money. The cuts for the middle class were quite small and destined to end in a few years. Am I mistaken?

Not exactly sure what you want me to respond to, the tax cut were for everyone ...

Barry

08-15-2019, 01:36 PM

But I still want to come to a deeper understanding of their attitudes and psychology.

Here is a great resource:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2019-08-15_13-08-24.png

A Complete Psychological Analysis of Trump's Support (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201812/complete-psychological-analysis-trumps-support?fbclid=IwAR03uG9eGWwQ97-kTHbIj4KLX7GtJpH3ehP6Fek_6odzcCcr1UV35yuc5gk)
Science can help us make sense of the president's political invincibility.
Posted Dec 27, 2018
Bobby Azarian Ph.D.

I highly recommend you read the full article (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201812/complete-psychological-analysis-trumps-support?fbclid=IwAR03uG9eGWwQ97-kTHbIj4KLX7GtJpH3ehP6Fek_6odzcCcr1UV35yuc5gk)!
Here are the main points (each of which is explored in the article)

Practicality Trumps Morality
(https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/ethics-and-morality)
The Brain’s (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/ethics-and-morality)Attention (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/attention) System Is More Strongly Engaged by Trump
America’s Obsession with Entertainment and Celebrities
“Some Men Just Want to Watch the World Burn.”
The Fear Factor: Conservatives Are More Sensitive to Threat
The Power of Mortality Reminders and Perceived Existential Threat
The Dunning-Kruger Effect: Humans Often Overestimate Their Political Expertise
Relative Deprivation — A Misguided Sense of Entitlement
Lack of Exposure to Dissimilar Others
Trump’s Conspiracy Theories Target the Mentally Vulnerable
Trump Taps into the Nation’s Collective Narcissism
(https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/narcissism)
The Desire to Want to Dominate Others
Authoritarian Personality
Racism and Bigotry

Plus it includes the following fascinating video... again worth a full watch!
Spoiler alert: The answer is... LSD! :crazysmile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvMkz1wy6_U

Mayacaman

08-15-2019, 01:38 PM

kburgess wrote:

This COUNTRY elected him, and the Left has been doing everything possible to disqualify him and that election. Clearly CA is not the State that elected him, and there are a LOT of people that love what he is doing. Go talk to them and find out the world that they are living in, and how he is speaking for them. They are NOT stupid, but they are also not CA, NY, or OR or any other deep blue State.
This is undeniably true. - Unless there was voter fraud via the Diebold (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Diebold%2C+voter+fraud%2C+Trump&t=osx&ia=videos) voting machines - which is altogether in the realm of the possible. But it is true that a LOT of people do love what he is doing. That reality is still a little mysterious to me, since I can see the downside & the darkness on the periphery of "what he is doing" pretty clearly.

I also am not prey to the sort of good-think-fulness that it seems necessary to have in order to sustain "faith" in the POTUS. Nevertheless, I heartily agree with you, Ken, in your admonition to the members of the Forum here @ WaccoBB, on this Left Coast of ours, to "Go talk to them and find out the world that they are living in, and how he is speaking for them..."

I have one friend, out of many old acquaintances, who is actually pro-Trump. This fellow used to be a revolutionary, a leftist, and hung with the Panthers back in '68. A very unusual case, I will say. He's been in Oklahoma for twenty-odd years and has metastasized into being a Okie, himself. Red State fever, they call it.

I haven't given up on him as a friend, and we still talk - and argue - politics on the telephone. I think it is important that We are able to still talk.

occihoff

08-15-2019, 01:40 PM

I appreciate your analysis of the sad facts in Baltimore, cyberanvil, although you still couldn't resist some snarky insults.

...

FACT CHECKING President Trumps Statements On Baltimore & Democrat Elijah Cummings district:

*ALLEGATION: Baltimore is considered the worst-run city in America.
*ANALYSIS: True. The BBC featured the city in a scathing report on poverty in America. At least 25 percent of the people in Cummings' congressional district live in poverty. "If you want to know what poverty in America looks like, well this is it," the BBC reporter declared. ...

occihoff

08-15-2019, 02:09 PM

Very interesting, Barry, thank you! I've always felt that personal psychology has a big role in orienting one's political attitudes.

I'm especially interested in the narcissism, because as I have previously mentioned, for some reason I have gotten on the Republican's fundraising mailing list. I get several emails a day, and they always refer to me as one of their top, special, and most elite supporters. Their messages are short and full of ego-pumping. They say that when I donate I will appear at the very top of their list and President Trump himself will see my name! When he doesn't see my name he actually asks why! They also say I will be entered into a raffle and have a special opportunity to have dinner with the great man himself!

A Complete Psychological Analysis of Trump's Support (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201812/complete-psychological-analysis-trumps-support?fbclid=IwAR03uG9eGWwQ97-kTHbIj4KLX7GtJpH3ehP6Fek_6odzcCcr1UV35yuc5gk)
...

occihoff

08-15-2019, 02:25 PM

Once again Ken, to whom the question was addressed, gave a respectful answer saying that this was one thing about the current Republicans' agenda that he didn't like--while cyberanvil spits out her typically hostile response. What is eating you, cyberanvil?

These "Gotcha" questions are hilarious and at the same time sad. How can any discussion proceed with these kind of obviously false/misleading and agenda driven questions? You know the answers that you're looking for. So just spit out your spill.
How many times do you beat your wife? Is this what we're reduced to?

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 02:52 PM

This is undeniably true....

Hard for a discussion to proceed when Trumpies are called Deplorables and supporters are all labeled as Racists.

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 03:01 PM

That leaves me with the same request I have made with Ken and Ron and you: please answer the specific questions I have been asking you. I have given repeated examples of some of the most egregious things the Trumpsters have done that appear to many of us as mean and cruel. So why don't you just tell us why they don't seem mean and cruel to you? And why are you so hostile and disrespectful to me?

So why don't you just tell us why they don't seem mean and cruel to you?
Hasn't it been explained previously? Your questions are bogus. You believe all the negative adjectives and I don't. If I don't believe your premise, how can I answer?
And why are you so hostile and disrespectful to me?
OK, your a nice and gentle guy. But you associate yourself with the Democratic Resist/Label/Hate/ Destroy/ANTIFA/get in their face crowd and what do you expect? Sorta hard to pick a diamond out of a pile of dung.

kburgess

08-15-2019, 03:05 PM

Well finally someone has seemed to describe us accurately!! Ha!!!
As far as 2020, as you guys pretty much own the MSM, Google, FB, Twitter, and YT, yes you might have a chance, but if it was truly fair fight, you would not stand a chance.
Cheers,
Ken.
...This shameful administration is the last gasp of the American Right Wing! Enjoy it while it lasts because Trump is going to lose by a landslide in 2020, guaranteed.

podfish

08-15-2019, 03:13 PM

.....you guys pretty much own the MSM, Google, FB, Twitter, and YT,...I know this isn't easy for you to believe, but maybe 'we' own them on the merits of our positions. As many great minds have observed, facts tend to have a liberal bias. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but that doesn't make them right. (symmetry again, I know...)

kburgess

08-15-2019, 03:17 PM

The basic liberal policy for voting is not to require any ID for citizenship, so that anyone can register to vote, and thus illegals are prime candidates for the Dem platform. CA is their model for how they want things to go, and look at the mess that they have created here with ridiculous taxes, homeless, filth and more. Their plan to use the immigration to improve their voter base and eliminate the 2 party system is well known. How many R's do you ever see here on our ballots? Not an issue of them not being around, but there is no requirement that all positions have 2 parties running.

As for the tax cuts, I am not the middle class, so have not delved into all of the details. I am on disability from major cancer trying to make the best of what I have.
Thanks,
Ken.
ps- Why do you think that there is such a stink over the census question. It has been on the census for years until Obama who removed it and now Trump is a racist for trying to put it back!!! Hmmm, Think about it...

I totally agree with you that we should help stabilize the countries on our southern sides! ...

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 03:19 PM

A Complete Psychological Analysis of Trump's Support (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201812/complete-psychological-analysis-trumps-support?fbclid=IwAR03uG9eGWwQ97-kTHbIj4KLX7GtJpH3ehP6Fek_6odzcCcr1UV35yuc5gk)
Bobby Azarian Ph.D.

What do the Twitters say?
https://twitter.com/bobbyazarian/status/893580963330101248?lang=en

podfish

08-15-2019, 03:23 PM

You believe all the negative adjectives and I don't. If I don't believe your premise, how can I answer? another quibble. In a rational argument, the 'main premise' is a statement accepted without proof, upon which an argument is made. He's not offering a 'main premise'. He's offering various observations about trump's behavior, based on evidence. You aren't refusing to accept his premise - you're ignoring his evidence.

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 03:24 PM

kburgess

08-15-2019, 03:24 PM

Personally I prefer to avoid all of the psychology and stereo-lyzed opinion, and try to talk to the folks 1 to 1 on the facts of the situation and leave the speculation aside. We are not all knowledgeable in all areas but we do all have certain areas of expertise, and if we have a 'Dialogue' to discuss the situation of facts and only then that of interpretation, we can have a bit more rational conversation and possibly reach a positive outcome (or at least offer the best chance of giving respect, dignity and honor)

Not sure if that is included on the list, but just my way of doing things,
Thanks,
Ken.

A Complete Psychological Analysis of Trump's Support (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201812/complete-psychological-analysis-trumps-support?fbclid=IwAR03uG9eGWwQ97-kTHbIj4KLX7GtJpH3ehP6Fek_6odzcCcr1UV35yuc5gk)

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 03:30 PM

I know this isn't easy for you to believe, but maybe 'we' own them on the merits of our positions. As many great minds have observed, facts tend to have a liberal bias. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but that doesn't make them right. (symmetry again, I know...)

"As many great minds have observed, facts tend to have a liberal bias."

Unnamed sources huh?

Barry

08-15-2019, 03:30 PM

...ps- Why do you think that there is such a stink over the census question. It has been on the census for years until Obama who removed it and now Trump is a racist for trying to put it back!!! Hmmm, Think about it...

False! Another fact with a liberal bias!

NPR: FACT CHECK: Has Citizenship Been A Standard Census Question? (https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question)

kburgess

08-15-2019, 03:30 PM

Maintaining any level of positive talk and dialogue is essential and key to providing any sense of communal unity. So much of the time our opinions of a view are based on the conduct of the people expressing that view and less on the facts of it. I love talking to folks who are far outside of my political/value/... system, as I know that somewhere we can always find something of agreement of human value, and then to build on that establishes the trust to continue.

Good thoughts
Ken.
ps- as far as the voting machines, I think that Diebold and most of the voting infrastructure is held by more of the left side bias. That is what I heard the last time I looked into it. Personally I am for Open Source and paper receipt and Instant Runoff to simplify things immensely.

This is undeniably true. - Unless there was voter fraud via the Diebold (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Diebold%2C+voter+fraud%2C+Trump&t=osx&ia=videos) voting machines ...

cyberanvil

08-15-2019, 03:34 PM

another quibble. In a rational argument, the 'main premise' is a statement accepted without proof, upon which an argument is made. He's not offering a 'main premise'. He's offering various observations about trump's behavior, based on evidence. You aren't refusing to accept his premise - you're ignoring his evidence.

His various observations are bogus and I refuse to legitimise them. I'm not ignoring "observations", I'm dismissing them. Is that so hard to understand?

Barry

08-15-2019, 03:34 PM

The basic liberal policy for voting is not to require any ID for citizenship, so that anyone can register to vote,

Incorrect! You are conflating requirement of registering to vote and requirements to vote.

ID is required to register to vote
ID is not required to vote

Wikipedia: Voter ID laws in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States)

kburgess

08-15-2019, 03:37 PM

Thank you occihoff,
Respectful dialogue is where any conversation starts in its ability to honor other peoples personal perspectives w/o needing to resort to various levels of flame and degradation, We all want and need to be respected by and within our community for if things got really bad and we had to truly depend on those around us for our genuine survival, that would be one of the tests of credibility of who would be accepted to live, and who would be left to die.

Many good thoughts,
Thanks,
Ken.
ps- I also make it a point to sign most everything that I write so as not to create the exit of anonymity.

Once again Ken, to whom the question was addressed, gave a respectful answer saying that this was one thing about the current Republicans' agenda that he didn't like--while cyberanvil spits out her typically hostile response. What is eating you, cyberanvil?

kburgess

08-15-2019, 03:48 PM

Interesting,
I guess it is the veil of long vs short form and the representation of facts.
As far as the 'liberal bias', this representation issue takes place all the time, so we do not need the flame here, but the fact check is good.
Thanks,
Ken.

False! Another one fact with a liberal bias!

NPR: FACT CHECK: Has Citizenship Been A Standard Census Question? (https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question)

Mayacaman

08-15-2019, 06:07 PM

kburgess wrote:

Maintaining any level of positive talk and dialogue is essential and key to providing any sense of communal unity. So much of the time our opinions of a view are based on the conduct of the people expressing that view and less on the facts of it. I love talking to folks who are far outside of my political/value/... system, as I know that somewhere we can always find something of agreement of human value, and then to build on that establishes the trust to continue.
I'll hand it to you that you are consistently polite and civil in the level of your communication & dialog, Ken. Thank You. -And I agree with the following, being all for the paper ballot:

Personally I am for Open Source and paper receipt and Instant Runoff to simplify things immensely.
However, I doubt that the Diebold voting machine itself has a "left bias" -- IT can be used by whichever party or group of criminals is in power, and has the use of the damned thing.

ps- as far as the voting machines, I think that Diebold and most of the voting infrastructure is held by more of the left side bias. That is what I heard the last time I looked into it.

Barry

08-16-2019, 12:41 PM

:waccosun::waccosun::waccosun:
Note from Barry about
how to control the visibility of this thread
:waccosun::waccosun::waccosun:

This has been a very active thread. I have omitted some of the more snarky and otherwise less interesting posts from the digest. You can see all posts on this thread on the website. Or just click Gratitude on this post or any other post on this thread and you'll get email updates whenever there is a new post.

If you are getting individual emails from this thread and you would like to stop them, just click the "Stop Email Updates" button on the bottom of one of those emails:

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You can remove this thread from the digest by going to this thread on the website, scroll up to the top of the page and click on this control:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2019-08-16_12-38-50.png

cyberanvil

08-16-2019, 02:04 PM

Glad you asked! no-one else seems to care :wink:

seriously, I'm no more qualified than Trump to try to impose solutions. And that's one of the big problems with him. He advertises himself somewhat honestly as a bull-in-a-china-shop, break things and see if they get better. For some reason that appeals to many who see things as needing breaking. I take an engineer's perspective: when things are broken, re-evaluate the goals of the system, figure out the forces that impact its function, and try to restructure the system to account for its previous failures. Many of these goals can be agreed on by most people, and many of the forces are equally non-controversial. If you don't like the engineer analogy, use judo instead. Usually you get better results by guiding rather than opposing these forces.

Does Trump break things and then offer no replacement or does he recognize that things are broken and offer solutions. Did you miss the NH Trump rally last night???

cyberanvil

08-16-2019, 02:41 PM

Why I'd never vote for Sanders.

Everyone knew he had been low balled in his election bid. But he gave up the good fight and at the convention, he went limp and endorsed Hillary. But even that pales with his use of racist labeling. He's shown himself to be no Ralph Nader. He sold out and joined the crowd of Democrats in playing Identity Politics.

"Sen. Bernie Sanders recently sat down with rapper Cardi B (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bernie-sanders-cardi-b-campaign-video-trump-police-oppressive-army-200342240.html) for a campaign video set in a Detroit nail salon, where they discussed their shared love of FDR, increasing the minimum wage, canceling student debt and defeating Donald Trump in 2020.
“We have this bully as a president, and the only way to take him out is somebody winning,” Cardi said.
“We’ve got to get rid of Donald Trump, obviously,” Sanders agreed, “because Donald Trump is an overt racist. He’s way out there.”

Sorry Bernie. You're old, white and rich. You don't have a chance.

Barry

08-16-2019, 02:48 PM

Does Trump break things and then offer no replacement or does he recognize that things are broken and offer solutions. Did you miss the NH Trump rally last night???
Seems I misplaced my tickets to the rally... :wink:

What proposed solution are you referring to?

podfish

08-16-2019, 03:47 PM

Does Trump break things and then offer no replacement or does he recognize that things are broken and offer solutions. Did you miss the NH Trump rally last night???thank god, yes. But since you seem to indicate he actually offered solutions, that the MSM didn't notice (seems perfectly plausible) or suppressed (seems pretty paranoid), I looked and found this (http:// https://factba.se/transcript/donald-trump-speech-maga-rally-manchester-nh-august-15-2019)...and sorry, I don't think I missed anything. Admittedly, there's so much bloviating that it's easy to miss anything concrete. Some other day I might have indulged myself by pulling lots of quotes and commenting on them. Sadly, you'll all have to forego the pleasure of reading those, at least for today.

But in general, all I found was the usual. He says things are great, quotes some things that indeed are going well, and claims that but for him, they'd be awful. If you admire him I guess you buy that. If you feel like being skeptical, he's not interested in convincing you. Several times he lies outright, others he mischaracterizes his opponents. I guess he is offering a solution when he says he wants to impose a voter ID, or eliminate 'Obamacare'. And he touts his achievement of putting in judges.

I guess you might see him offering solutions in a broad sense - he often posits a problem that isn't one, and says it'll get fixed (like the voter ID to stop all that fraud). He also said he'll "keep guns out of the hands of insane people", which should solve that problem.

There is some mention of an effort to add transparency to drug pricing, and a couple of other modest government actions that I suppose deserve some credit. Good on him for those. But the bulk of it reads like a parody.

kburgess

08-16-2019, 04:01 PM

Cascade

08-16-2019, 05:02 PM

I was a Bernie supporter. Unfortunately he didn't have the votes to win the convention. I would have been very upset if he had tried to run as a 3rd party candidate. He took the high road, and did what he could to keep Trump from winning. I still think he would have made a better candidate than Hillary, but the media didn't give him the coverage he needed.

~Cascade

Why I'd never vote for Sanders....

Cascade

08-16-2019, 05:38 PM

Ken, I appreciate your consistent politeness, and agree with what you say in the quote below.

I'm wondering what you think Trump is accomplishing. I'm starting to think of him as the Great Destroyer - systematically putting people in charge of important departments whose life work has been contrary to the purpose of the department, and doing other things to make our world unsafe, such as:

deny the existence of climate change and try to bury evidence of it, so that we get closer and closer to the point of no return
Throw out nuclear ban treaties, so we may end up destroy ourselves even sooner by nuclear war
Stir up racial hatred by his words and defund groups which are working to reduce domestic terrorism
Ignore and get rid of the scientists and diplomats who have the knowledge, expertise and experience that is needed to function well in the world
Teach our allies that we can't be trusted while praising dangerous dictators
Destroy our environment by turning national parks and lands and oceans over to companies to mine them and drill for oil. And weaken the endangered species act even when we're in the midst of the sixth great extinction
Help the Saudis get access to nuclear information that will let them have nuclear weapons as well

Etc., etc.

I would like to see us building a country where people are willing to work together for the benefit of all. One where everyone has the opportunity to earn a decent living - to have enough to eat, a decent place to live, the health care they need. I'm guessing that this is something that you would support as well.

Longing for a world of cooperation,
Cascade

Maintaining any level of positive talk and dialogue is essential and key to providing any sense of communal unity. ...

cyberanvil

08-16-2019, 05:49 PM

Seems I misplaced my tickets to the rally... :wink:

What proposed solution are you referring to?

Too many to list. You'll have to check the replay. Btw, the Trump campaign will send you a DVD for a measly $5.00
:hilarious:

podfish

08-16-2019, 06:10 PM

What I heard is that the Dems broke into his servers and stole all of his campaign lists and then started a neg campaign against him until he had no choice but to endorse her. That seems to be one of the bigger and yet totally untold stories of the Dem's hacking and collusion.or, maybe, it's not true. 'I heard'?

obviously there's no partisan difference between people eager to think the worst things are true of the other side. But if you base your partisan leanings on mostly those, stories that would be cool if true, and may be being covered up somehow, you're basing your leanings on shakey ground. Instead, why not look at what's not very disputable at all? To pick one at random, Trump's clearly destroying environmental protections. He thinks (or his supporters think, I won't give him the credit) that they've gone overboard and impose unnecessary constraints on business and on the ability of his cronies to buy land. (yep, I'm painting it kinda prejudicial again...). Do you agree? He thinks the immigrants are causing problems, I'm not quite sure how except they're maybe MS13 rapists, and they haven't come in legally, and (though this is the sketchiest claim) they take jobs from Americans. (look at the news story today about health-care workers in Maine). But he does this by implementing cruel policies. Maybe Obama did too, maybe the people are asking for it. But they're undeniably cruel. Is that ok with you too?

Maybe the dems promise unrealistic things. Maybe you like your private insurance and worry that they'll take it away (I kinda doubt it'll happen). But are their policies cruel? are they more oriented toward helping, even if you think they're a bit feckless? Even the Squad, if you think they hate America, seems to be oriented to fighting against cruel policies. You don't agree they're cruel policies? or that even if they are, they're necessary??

this is why I can't support the right. They're ok with racists, even if they are horribly offended that they may be considered tainted by that unfair association. They're ok with cruel policies, able to explain them away as necessary or nothing new. They won't take a chance that new policies might benefit people, because maybe the policies won't, or undeserving people might exploit them, or they might cost so much that things have to change a lot.

I meant to slow down on the 'contributions' here, dammit, but this topic really really resonates with me. And as so many here have said, Ken, you seem to be hopeful and care about things being better. It's just shocking that you've chosen to harness yourself to the particular star you have.

cyberanvil

08-16-2019, 06:12 PM

ACCOUNTIBILITY*****ACCOUNTIBILITY*****ACCOUNTIBILITY
Citizens, sing it! A-COUNT-TI-ABILITY
The Democrats and their minions have for too long promised and not delivered. They have not been held accountable. Their superstars of identity politics, fly in, fly out (Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton) and do nothing but intimidate and ransom businesses. Hello Chicago! They pose as the champions of the people. Promises made, promises broken. Today’s Democratic Party is not the party of JFK and even Bill Clinton. Does anyone remember when Clinton and Obama made speeches about stopping the flood of illegal’s? Nah, that’s gone out the window. Obama deported 800,000, anyone remember? Progressives and their buddies, the Socialists, in the quest for votes and acolytes, are now throwing shade on Obama and Clinton. The people of Chicago, Detroit and yes even Maryland dispute the Democratic talking points. Heck, even the stronghold of the Democrats (Sf, CA) can’t clean their streets of poop, pee, needles and the homeless. Hasn’t it been too long? Business as usual gets old, doesn’t it? Haven’t you observed history and seen the lack of change? Even with the first Black President, control of the Senate and the House, the democratically controlled cities are indeed still cesspools. Bernie in 2015 said that Baltimore appeared as a Third World Country. And now you blame the President for the same observation? Wake up people. The Democratic parties Identity Politicking is not good for the country. Why continue to go down a path that has failed? Progressive/Socialist, it all means the same. Higher taxes and bigger government. Bigger government with non-elected staffers with the power to compel you. Hide if you have to, stay silent if you have to, but vote for the President that has raised every standard of living indicator. Lowest Black/Hispanic/Asian/Women unemployment for many decades

Barry

08-16-2019, 11:20 PM

Too many to list. You'll have to check the replay. Btw, the Trump campaign will send you a DVD for a measly $5.00
:hilarious:
Not funny. I'm losing patience with your participation here.

I do know he pivoted away from background checks for gun purchases, taking cover with "it's a mental health problem", however his budgets and health care proposals have sought to decrease funding for mental health, and he's taking no action to thoughtfully address the problem in any way.

Mayacaman

08-17-2019, 08:19 AM

Barry wrote:

I do know he pivoted away from background checks for gun purchases, taking cover with "it's a mental health problem", however his budgets and health care proposals have sought to decrease funding for mental health, and he's taking no action to thoughtfully address the problem in any way.
With regards to how Trump is playing the recent shootings in Dayton & El Paso, I saw this meme yesterday, on a friend's facebook page. I not going to post the meme itself, just the link (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10102823140268004&set=p.10102823140268004&type=3&theater). I think It says it all.

sealwatcher

08-17-2019, 08:44 AM

Sourcing on your meme, please.

With regards to how Trump is playing the recent shootings in Dayton &El Paso, I saw this meme yesterday, on a friend's facebook page. I not going to post the meme itself, just the link. I think It says it all.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10102823140268004&set=p.10102823140268004&type=3&theater

Mayacaman

08-17-2019, 09:09 AM

Sealwatcher, It seems that it came from a fellow named "Joe Enroughty"- But I suspect the original source is, as it says in the upper left-hand corner, "Big Easy".... That's an online "Progressive" Magazine out of New Orleans...

Proto-Source: https://www.facebook.com/BigEasyMagazine/ (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215255351761484&set=a.1166180239074&type=3&theater)

Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215255351761484&set=a.1166180239074&type=3&theater

(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215255351761484&set=a.1166180239074&type=3&theater)

Barry

08-17-2019, 10:14 AM

Sourcing on your meme, please.

I haven't checked, but I believe these are selections of accurate quotes.

american dream

08-17-2019, 12:02 PM

The country did not elect him, the Electoral College did. Hillary won the popular vote, though by how much is unclear since all votes were not counted.

kburgess wrote:

This is undeniably true. - Unless there was voter fraud via the Diebold (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Diebold%2C+voter+fraud%2C+Trump&t=osx&ia=videos) voting machines - which is altogether in the realm of the possible. ..

kburgess

08-17-2019, 01:20 PM

Maybe you have forgotten but the Entire-Purpose of the Electoral College is to prevent election results to be based on a popular vote alone. We are a REPUBLIC and NOT a democracy. A democracy is public/mob rule and the lesser important voices get drowned out, thus we have the Electoral college. If we did not have a representative voting system, election results would be solely decided by all of the urban areas an no representation for the rural ones.

You may not like that idea, but our Founding-Fathers were a LOT smarter than you on this matter as they had witnessed many examples of how democracy destroy's nations and strips away their individual rights as the masses continually vote for politicians who promise more benefits and deliver nothing and turn the nation from democracy to socialism to communism. Take a look around, do you want to live in a system like Europe?, Russia?, China??? They may all sound great in little countries like Denmark in the news clips, but the reality is a far cry different.

Individual rights is the only answer, and teach the other swimmers how to swim better rather than giving them all flotation devices, and I can assure you that Nancy Pelosi's Election Reform bill will do NOTHING to help represent the unheard voices of this country and help to introduce more support for the smaller parties like Green, Libertarian, Constitution, ...

Just my thoughts,
Thanks,
Ken.

The country did not elect him, the Electoral College did. Hillary won the popular vote, though by how much is unclear since all votes were not counted.

kburgess

08-17-2019, 01:55 PM

Hello Cascade,
Thanks for the good post and respectful questions.

As I have mentioned in a number of previous posts, he IS the Great-Destroyer, but not the destroyer of the good in the world, but destroyer of stripping out the rot of the system that has been taking us down a very bad path for over 40 years with issues of un-payable debt, vastly unfair trade agreements, empire building, rigging unfair elections, a out of control CIA and my biggest one, ... Un-Sound FIAT based Private-Central-Banking Federal Reserve Money.

From my standpoint if he can deal with some of these major ones, I am OK with some level, even though I do not agree with a lot of his positions like Oil drilling in Natl Parks, relaxing envronmental standards, 5G and some of the smaller ones.

During his campaign I put together the following Pro's and Con's and then today put together my Desired list,
see below.

Further answers to your questions within text,
Thanks,
Ken.

Ken, I appreciate your consistent politeness, and agree with what you say in the quote below.

I'm wondering what you think Trump is accomplishing. I'm starting to think of him as the Great Destroyer - systematically putting people in charge of important departments whose life work has been contrary to the purpose of the department, and doing other things to make our world unsafe, such as:

deny the existence of climate change and try to bury evidence of it, so that we get closer and closer to the point of no return
Climate-Change is happening, but all of the original studies did not include any influence of the changes with the Sun impacting our weather. It has since been proven that there are many very active dynamic changes in with the Sun that impact us all the time. When we look at the total data, yes there is huge change, but most of it is Not due to carbon, but more to city building and deforestation, and the US is still more aggressive than most other nations for pollution controls and clean technology. Clearly if we can get to the point where the suppressed tech of clean-energy is released by de-powering the oil companies, the solution will be quick in hand.
Throw out nuclear ban treaties, so we may end up destroy ourselves even sooner by nuclear war
The nuclear ban treaties are only good if they are being cooperatively followed, they were not, so no need to put up the pretense of them doing any good. Throw them out, expose the fraud, and start again if the other nations then want the protection of them.
Stir up racial hatred by his words and defund groups which are working to reduce domestic terrorism
Not sure what you are referring to here, please explain.
Ignore and get rid of the scientists and diplomats who have the knowledge, expertise and experience that is needed to function well in the world
Also not sure to what you are referring to.
Teach our allies that we can't be trusted while praising dangerous dictators
We did a pretty good job in North Korea, and exposed the unfair practices of Europe and US relations, and exposed Britain for providing domestic spying on his campaign and on the American people for no good reason at all other than supporting their own Dem political agenda's.
Destroy our environment by turning national parks and lands and oceans over to companies to mine them and drill for oil. And weaken the endangered species act even when we're in the midst of the sixth great extinction
I do not agree with many of his environmental policies, and also am not totally up on all the details of it, only so much I can pay attention to.
Help the Saudis get access to nuclear information that will let them have nuclear weapons as well
I might have missed this one, but clearly there was a HUGE amount of info released by Bill Clinton and Obama to nuclearize Iran. Again, not up on it all.

Etc., etc.

I would like to see us building a country where people are willing to work together for the benefit of all. One where everyone has the opportunity to earn a decent living - to have enough to eat, a decent place to live, the health care they need. I'm guessing that this is something that you would support as well.

Longing for a world of cooperation,
Cascade

I agree that we all want cooperation, but we have a very large house filled with rot, filth, bugs, termites, rats and more, but with a moderate coat of paint and nice incense so that we cannot see or smell most of it. Sometimes you have to take down the house before you can make it right. This is like a live-in renovation with your family, your neighbors and in-laws all at the same time. A Full-Load,
Thanks,
Ken.
Trump IssuesPro's/Con's written during his campaign and election
Pro’s

Non Politically Party/History Encumberment
Successful Business Mind for Finance, Projects and Debt
Can Do Attitude
Return America back to the people
Secure borders and rule of law
Good trade deals and America First
US infrastructure projects
Reduced corp/individual taxes

Con’s

Limited Political Awareness
Limited Statesman/Public Servant Awareness
Very Concerning Cabinet Appointee’s
Women Scandals
Self Centered/Self Serving

Desired’sUpdated today
(This list might be a bit ideal, but that is the way that I think, and if I do not define it, it can never get done)

Nationalize the Fed
Equalize Trade Deals
Secure the Borders
Asset Backed Currency
911 Investigation
JFK Investigation
Pedophilia/Human Trafficking Prosecution
Truth & Reconciliation Program for Congress, Govt Staff, Media, etc.
Campaign and Presidency Collusion Investigation/Prosecution,
FISA Declas, etc.
RDS 12 Point Election Reform, Including
Campaign Financing Limitations/No Super-PAC’s, Open Debates, Voter/Citizenship ID, Open-Source Technology, Paper Receipts, Instant-Runoff, …
Release of Suppressed-Technologies for Clean Energy, Flight, Health, Env Cleanup, etc.
Disclosure/Elimination of Congressional Hush Money Slush Funds
Line Item Veto
Reality-Based Economic Indicators, Revised Govt Accounting/Disclosure Standards, FASB 56, etc.
Dept of Peace
CIA/FBI/Intelligence Community Reform
International Intervention Reform for CIA, Global Military Presence, etc.
Replace w/Missions of Intl Health, Sanitation, Food Production, Education, Economic Growth, Trade and Diplomacy skills.
SEC Reform and Derivative Regulation
Removal of Petro-Dollar Supremacy, and Oil Cartel control of Global Political and Economic Infrastructure
Removal of the Military-Oil-Intelligence-Industrial-Complex
Opening of Health Care/Drug Industry for more progressive treatments, natural medications, cannabis, etc.
Honesty Standards/Regulation/Oversight for all Media and Big Tech

Mayacaman

08-17-2019, 01:57 PM

american dream wrote:
The country did not elect him, the Electoral College did. Hillary won the popular vote, though by how much is unclear since all votes were not counted.

Interesting point, american dream - though i admit i was not aware of that. -And who has ever met a member of the "Electoral College"? They don't generally get interview'd on television, at election time. One more holdover from the patriarchal system that the "Founding Fathers" foisted upon us in their counter-revolution of 1789.

Frankly, I prefer the older "Articles of Confederation (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?cm_sp=SearchF-_-topnav-_-Results&ds=20&kn=Merrill%20Jensen%2C%20The%20New%20Nation&sts=t)" that was drafted by the revolutionary Continental Congress of 1777. It was modeled on the Iroquois Constitution (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=articles+of+confederation+iroquois+constitution+&t=osx&atb=v182-3__&ia=web), and was intrinsically both more "democratic" & also held out a greater degree of Freedom for Individuals & for the member "States" as well...

On that note, I'd like to suggest that Progressives reconsider the legality & the advisability of the gambit of Succession (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Succession%2C+Legality+of%2C+Constitutional+Law&t=osx&atb=v182-3__&ia=web). It has been argued, since 1861, by a number of Constitutional Legal experts, that, in Theory, the South had a Right to Secede from the "Union" in 1861.

Now, to be sure, the rationale for secession in 1861 - the wish to retain the Institution of Slavery - was a piss-poor reason to leave the Union. -But is there not a much better Cause Now? Would not we, on the Left Coast, be better off, if we could put all of our social energy into making homelessness cease? - into Peaceful projects of all kinds?

-Into Land Reform & re-instituting the Homestead Act, that Reagan so bluntly rescinded early in 1981? -Into building that fabled "Ecotopia"? -If We, collectively, do not wish to be ruled by Donald Trump, can we not do better?

Just putting it out there. I am not, by any means advocating violent revolution - just an Initiative & Referendum that can be renewed on a bi-annual basis. I think that the U.S. could safely be subdivided into five or six "nations." Each new nation could be at peace with each of the other former portions of the "United States;" have some kind of Confederation of Mutual Aid & Civil Relations, -and yet be separate 'nations'.

Part of this process would be an Initiative and Referendum to allow the Southwest to become "Atzlan (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Atzlan&t=osx&atb=v182-3__&iax=images&ia=images)." This would be a salve & a sop to the Indigenous & to the Hispanics from South of the Border. -Though from my perspective Northern California, Northern Texas, Nevada, Utah & Colorado should not be included in that bargain. If this were put to a vote, which would be renewed every two years, we might be able to avert the coming Race War.

Each of these "new nations" could start out without the burden of a "national debt" and with a Constitution based on the Iroquois Constitution / Articles of Confederation model. This is a very Utopian Idea, I admit - and has little chance to succeed, I know.

Perhaps I should start another thread on this subject? Just wondering if it would get any traction...

podfish

08-17-2019, 02:00 PM

...You may not like that idea, but our Founding-Fathers were a LOT smarter than you on this matter as they had witnessed many examples of how democracy destroy's nations and strips away their individual rights as the masses continually vote for politicians who promise more benefits ...really? I can't think of any examples myself, but maybe you can? (as for a lot smarter, some were exceptional but I bet they had their share of lesser lights). I think you base a lot of your political philosophy on this kind of unwarranted faith in some (your characterization of the prez comes to mind) and insufficiently critical acceptance of the negative characterizations of Pelosi et. al. that's put out by him and the (non-msm) media friendly to him. The problems with the dems seem easy for you to see, but you see them as disqualifying while the critiques of the current regime don't seem particularly disturbing to you.

kburgess

08-17-2019, 02:08 PM

Hello Podfish,
As I have posted before, we all have our unique perspectives that allow us to see Truth's that are unique to each one of us. Some of us like the minutia, and others the larger picture.

You have talked about a number of your thoughts on how/why I might have come to the rationale that I have and yes I probably have a very different perspective than most of this community and the more progressive left. Oh well.

We did not have 5 candidates to choose from in 2016, we had 2. One dud and one unknown and potentially risky play. I chose the later, and from the criteria that I just cited in a previous post, he is doing OK, but yes I still do have some concerns. I would love to see the Barr investigation completed quickly, and I would love to get all this Epstein and FISA stuff resolved as that will reveal a LOT of rot of the system.

How I got onto this horse is my choosing, and I still hope that he has not become overly compromised by bad advise and is just playing a ruse to keep his enemies close.

He did not just land into the seat because he was famous and rich, but was brought in by military patriots who needed him to do the job, and thus I have to conclude that there is a lot of military strategy of intelligence and counter-intelligence in his actions that may not make sense to those of us on the outside. I am not an expert in it, but do understand the basics.

Obviously a long and deep conversation,
Thanks for the post,
Ken.

or, maybe, it's not true. 'I heard'? ...

podfish

08-17-2019, 02:11 PM

Trump Issues

Pro's/Con's written during his campaign and election
Pro’s

..

Con’s

..

Desired’s

Updated today
(This list might be a bit ideal, but that is the way that I think, and if I do not define it, it can never get done)

..

gotta give you credit, you've put some thought into this. I still can't understand how you think trump lives up to most of what you've put in as 'pros' and I certainly don't see how you think he's capable or interested in furthuring any progress towards your desires. I get that the status quo, to you more represented by the Democrats than Republicans (???) isn't making much progress in directions you hope for, but why you think those desired goals will be more likely to be realized if someone first creates political rubble still escapes me. Maybe you have some eastern European country in mind as a model? Seriously, is there any historical precedent for the trajectory you hope to see?

kburgess

08-17-2019, 02:24 PM

That is the scary thing, we have no recent example of anything of this kind.

The closet thing which is really not too far off was the creation of the USA with the abuses of Britain on to us as the colonies and we having to take up arms to change the game. Today, in the Plan that I was aware of, they had the option of having a military coup, but wanted to see if Trump could do it peacefully before pulling out the guns against Hilary. This is all from various interviews that I have heard from ex military and CIA operatives who were working on the Plan.
Thanks,
Ken.
ps- As for my Desired list, they are a mix of things that I would like to see myself and things that I am hoping that Trump will lead into from little breadcrumbs that he seems to be dropping. kb.

... Seriously, is there any historical precedent for the trajectory you hope to see?

Mayacaman

08-17-2019, 02:45 PM

kburgess wrote:
He did not just land into the seat because he was famous and rich, but was brought in by military patriots who needed him to do the job, and thus I have to conclude that there is a lot of military strategy of intelligence and counter-intelligence in his actions that may not make sense to those of us on the outside. I am not an expert in it, but do understand the basics.
That sounds like the rationale of the Q faction, Ken. Would you care to join in and contribute to my [somewhat moribund] thread over here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?130883-The-Curious-Phenomenon-of-quot-QAnon-quot-Trump-s-Cult-Following&p=228307#post228307), Ken? I would appreciate you sounding in to air your thoughts on "Q."

As far as your list of "Desired" points. I've got to say that they are almost all good, & also, for the most part, {except for one or two points - which might be twisted in an authoritarian manner} they are all actually "Progressive." Ha !

There was a fellow, a certain Bill Picenti, who lived out Bennett Valley way, who was a real Citizen - one who always showed up at every City Council meeting & at all of the Board of Supervisors meetings, too. He was a member of the John Birch Society - a card carrying member. Yet he had very many ideas that were radical, & even 'socialist.'

-For instance, he would say: "No one should be homeless or hungry {without food or shelter} in America. This country is a rich land, and everyone - even the non-productive - should have at least their basic human needs met." -Words to that effect; pretty much verbatim...

Once, Elden McFarland told him, after hearing that spiel, "That's Socialism, Bill." And Bill Picenti answered and said "I don't care what you call it; I call it "Americanism."" You remind me of old Bill Picenti, Ken. In some ways You are an unconscious progressive - even though you seem to have the customary "conservative" aversion & allergy to the word.

Cascade

08-17-2019, 04:47 PM

Hello Ken,

I appreciate your willingness to engage, and write about what draws you to Trump - as well as the problems you see. I'm not at all surprised to see that there's an overlap in the things that we'd like to see in our country. However it seems like we have difference sources of information, so that our "facts" don't always agree.

I've embedded responses in blue.

Hello Cascade,
Thanks for the good post and respectful questions.

As I have mentioned in a number of previous posts, he IS the Great-Destroyer, but not the destroyer of the good in the world, but destroyer of stripping out the rot of the system that has been taking us down a very bad path for over 40 years with issues of un-payable debt, vastly unfair trade agreements, empire building, rigging unfair elections, a out of control CIA and my biggest one, ... Un-Sound FIAT based Private-Central-Banking Federal Reserve Money.

The information I've seen shows that the Republicans generally run up a higher debt than the Democrats - and Trump is doing the same. The unfairness of trade agreements, in my opinion, is that they have given too much power to corporations and don't do enough to protect workers, the environment, etc. I haven't seen that the Great Destroyer is destroying any rot. Far from emptying the swamp he's invited the swamp creatures to dinner, to feast on tax payer money (you may agree, since you indicate a concern about his cabinet appointees). I don't like our empire-building - but that's been going on as long as we've been a country.

If you're looking for a revolution - be aware that most revolutions result in chaos and often in worse conditions than existed prior to the revolution. Think of the Arab Spring. A would-be dictator (see how he admires the ability of his favorite dictators to simply order something be done, and how he tries to do the same thing) is not going to do a good job of creating a positive environment.

I don't know what your issues with the monetary system are, but do you think we'd be better off with Bitcoin and more new technologies like that?

I agree that we all want cooperation, but we have a very large house filled with rot, filth, bugs, termites, rats and more, but with a moderate coat of paint and nice incense so that we cannot see or smell most of it. Sometimes you have to take down the house before you can make it right.

It would help to have plans for something better so that you don't end up with something like Yugoslavia, or like Lebanon (a boy I knew in High School was from Lebanon, and at that time (> 50 years ago) he could point proudly to the way the Christians and the Muslims lived together peacefully). You need tools for rebuilding, but if you've destroyed all the tools in the process of taking down the rotten house, you'll have nothing left except misery.

Trump Issues

Pro's/Con's written during his campaign and election
Pro’s

Non Politically Party/History Encumberment

I would also like to see a change to our system so that we could have successful third parties. As I recall in another post you mentioned Rank Choice Voting or Instant Runoff Voting - I'm strongly in favor of that. It would be a way to allow us to vote for the person we really want without fearing that will cause our nightmare to be elected.
Successful Business Mind for Finance, Projects and Debt

Hm, Trump's business ability is negligible. His companies have gone through bankruptcy, he screws his workers and contractors, he thinks he can have his way by bullying and he has cost the taxpayers a lot of money. Just one example for now - think Trump University.
Can Do Attitude

Can do whatever he wants/or that will benefit him personally - is that the attitude you want?
Return America back to the people

Not sure what you mean by that
Secure borders and rule of law

I really don't know what needs to be done about the borders. We're a nation of immigrants, and at the same time, it helps to have a common culture - at least a meta culture that we agree on
Good trade deals and America First

It doesn't help to throw out trade (and other) deals just because of animus towards your predecessor.
US infrastructure projects

What has he done about that?
Reduced corp/individual taxes

Most of the benefit of reduced taxes has gone to corporations and rich individuals. And the deficit has been skyrocketing.

Con’s

Yep, important cons.

Limited Political Awareness
Limited Statesman/Public Servant Awareness
Very Concerning Cabinet Appointee’s
Women Scandals
Self Centered/Self Serving

Desired’s

I certainly agree with some of your Desireds, and definitely not with all. In a lot of cases we need to clarify what problem we're trying to solve, and look for the best resolution.

Updated today
(This list might be a bit ideal, but that is the way that I think, and if I do not define it, it can never get done)

Nationalize the Fed
Equalize Trade Deals
Secure the Borders
Asset Backed Currency
911 Investigation
JFK Investigation
Pedophilia/Human Trafficking Prosecution
Truth & Reconciliation Program for Congress, Govt Staff, Media, etc.
Campaign and Presidency Collusion Investigation/Prosecution,
FISA Declas, etc.
RDS 12 Point Election Reform, Including
Campaign Financing Limitations/No Super-PAC’s, Open Debates, Voter/Citizenship ID, Open-Source Technology, Paper Receipts, Instant-Runoff, …
Release of Suppressed-Technologies for Clean Energy, Flight, Health, Env Cleanup, etc.
Disclosure/Elimination of Congressional Hush Money Slush Funds
Line Item Veto
Reality-Based Economic Indicators, Revised Govt Accounting/Disclosure Standards, FASB 56, etc.
Dept of Peace
CIA/FBI/Intelligence Community Reform
International Intervention Reform for CIA, Global Military Presence, etc.
Replace w/Missions of Intl Health, Sanitation, Food Production, Education, Economic Growth, Trade and Diplomacy skills.
SEC Reform and Derivative Regulation
Removal of Petro-Dollar Supremacy, and Oil Cartel control of Global Political and Economic Infrastructure
Removal of the Military-Oil-Intelligence-Industrial-Complex
Opening of Health Care/Drug Industry for more progressive treatments, natural medications, cannabis, etc.
Honesty Standards/Regulation/Oversight for all Media and Big Tech

Thanks for the discussion,
Cascade

kburgess

08-18-2019, 07:36 AM

Yes, I would be glad to join in on the discussion on Q. I do follow him and always intrigued by his perspective on things. It is a true relief to see that there is a larger plan in the works and has the total air of a counter-intelligence military operation. Set the trap, and let them hang themselves as they think that they are going in for the kill on you.

As for being a progressive, I do not mind that topic at all, although I would define a difference being a progressive from a political standpoint which is where I like to call myself a more independent/conservative/libertarian, and then from a social standpoint. My main thing is to resolve the financial and legalistic/transparency infrastructure of the country and so that 'We the People' can actually see a more accurate picture of our country and learn to accept our responsibility in maintaining it, and then do so.

It is the bringing back the role of 'Civic's' in the classroom and discussion and having it include, US Govt, Financial Management, Banking/Money Creation, Trust's, Contracts, Commercial Remedy and more. That is a bit of my own wish list, so I would be happy with about half of that list in actuality.

I will look at the thread,
Thanks,
Ken.

kburgess wrote:
That sounds like the rationale of the Q faction, Ken. Would you care to join in and contribute to my [somewhat moribund] thread over here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?130883-The-Curious-Phenomenon-of-quot-QAnon-quot-Trump-s-Cult-Following&p=228307#post228307), Ken? I would appreciate you sounding in to air your thoughts on "Q."...

kburgess

08-18-2019, 08:56 AM

Hi Cascade,
Yes we can debate each point individually and I do appreciate all of your thoughts on the matter.

A few points,
The Pro's/Con's list was written as I was considering his merits in 2015/2016, so yes we can extend the perceptions to today, but not quite a fair comparison. I do still hold to most of those initial opinions although it would be adjusted a bit.

Second,
No one in DC has the luxury of being able to directly put out legislation that is in the pure sense of what they would like done. It is always about what will get through and supported, thus part of the audience is to the public awareness side of us the American people, but the other part is to the operational audience of the people who will actually supporting it and executing the tasks of completion.

The goal is to have the operational audience more subservient to the 'We the People', as it was originally intended, and less having an allegiance to its own ruling class, regardless of what color of secret society that you might pick. From what I infer, there are 2 or 3 factions duking it out, but still a bit up in the air.

Ben Fulford is the best one to discuss this topic if you follow him.

I agree with your points of things going to corporate benefactors, but would not totally agree it is just because Trump is rich and wants to feed his buddies, I think that it is more that he is trying to establish another level of allies and power base leading into 2020, where if he stays in, will try to execute more substantial things on his agenda.

Let me remind you that the way that the power structure of the country was initially designed to look was as follows:

God
Proper use of Language/Words/Learning/Education
Contracts/Agreement/Barter/Trade
Power of the People/Commons/Collective Agreement/Bargaining
Govt of Communities/States and then Fed, all under the authority of the fairly represented People
Banking and Money as a standardized medium of exchange
Private Businesses
Corporations, etc.

And today we have that list a bit inverted

Banking and Money as a standardized medium of exchange
Corporations, etc.
Govt of World, Fed, States and then Communities all under the authority of the Banks and Corporations
In whatever order you want,
Proper use of Language/Words/Learning/Education
Contracts/Agreement/Barter/Trade
Power of the People/Commons/Collective Agreement/Bargaining
Private Businesses
God

All of this can be traced back to the war debts of the revolutionary war, the Constitution, War of 1812 and many things onwards as a history of commercial international bankruptcy, and the general issue of banking and settling of municipal debts, and what to use as the underlying asset base. Consequently there is a timeline for ALL of this, and not very pretty.
Too much for now,
Ken.

Cascade

08-19-2019, 03:20 PM

Hi Ken,

You seem to believe that Trump's ultimate agenda is beneficial, and that there are people behind him that want to let "We the People" be in charge. Everything I have seen of the Great Destroyer gives me the opposite impression. I don't think either he or the major people supporting him give a damn about anyone but themselves (and probably their families and maybe sometimes their colleagues). Do you remember James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan? As I recall, he said something to the effect that God gave us this world to use fully, and so we should use it up before the end times. I tend to think that the major Trump supporters are like that, and don't care about what they leave for the next generations.

Trump keeps promising that if they can get rid of the ACA (Obamacare), he'll have something better - but appears to have no actual plan. Why would anyone believe him? That seems to be his MO - promise pie in the sky with no plan, no idea about how to get there. There's a real problem with destroying something expecting the end results to be better, when there's no vision about how that will come about.

What gives you confidence that someone(s) will create a better future?

I had never heard of Ben Fulford before, but a quick search does not inspire me to read further.

~Cascade

...The goal is to have the operational audience more subservient to the 'We the People', as it was originally intended, and less having an allegiance to its own ruling class, regardless of what color of secret society that you might pick. ...

cyberanvil

08-19-2019, 03:43 PM

...Do you remember James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan? As I recall, he said something to the effect that God gave us this world to use fully, and so we should use it up before the end times. I tend to think that the major Trump supporters are like that, and don't care about what they leave for the next generations.

Misattributed

God (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/God) gave us these things to use. After the last tree (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tree) is felled, Christ (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Christ) will come back.

Attributed in Setting the Captives Free (1990) by Austin Miles, and widely repeated after appearing in "The Godly Must Be Crazy", by Glenn Scherer in Grist magazine (28 October 2004) (http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2004/10/27/scherer-christian/index.html). Grist afterwards retracted and apologized for Scherer's comment, noting that the quotation appears nowhere in Watt's Congressional testimony or any other source it could find. Watt has responded:<dl style="margin-top: 0.2em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><dd style="margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px;">I never said it. Never believed it. Never even thought it. I know no Christian who believes or preaches such error. The Bible commands conservation — that we as Christians be careful stewards of the land and resources entrusted to us by the Creator.</dd></dl>

Cascade

08-19-2019, 03:55 PM

Obviously I never saw the retraction - but what I remembered certainly fit the way Watt acted. Has anyone seen a comparison between Watt's policies on the environment and what Trump's appointees are doing?

~Cascade

Re James Watt supposedly saying that God gave us the world to use up before the end times.

Misattributed...

kburgess

08-19-2019, 04:53 PM

So be it,
In which case, the Trump is no different than any other politician, looks good on the outside, but serves themselves for everything else.

Instead of being critical, what then would you suggest and who do you like??

It is great to be the sideline critic, but you have asked me for my set of facts and I have given them to you,
BUT you have offered nothing in return in regards to better suggestions other than being critical about Trump and everything else.

I find that to be pretty typical of this group, no good ideas other than to criticize whatever you see and not to really try to understand the dynamics of being in a position such as his.
Please show me something else.
Ken.

You seem to believe that Trump's ultimate agenda is beneficial, ...

podfish

08-19-2019, 05:08 PM

So be it,
In which case, the Trump is no different than any other politician, looks good on the outside, but serves themselves for everything else.

Instead of being critical, what then would you suggest and who do you like??...

I find that to be pretty typical of this group, no good ideas other than to criticize whatever you see So many things wrong. Hell yes he's way different than pretty much any other politician. I had a boss once tell me that you sometimes have a choice between doing business with a crook and with an idiot. He said, choose the crook because at least you can reason with him. With the idiot, you're screwed. Trump is way worse both intellectually and ethically, unless you really do believe the Hillary-pedophile theory. Even then, she was damn smart. And yes, there's one overriding good idea that's been posted here. Get the bastard out. It's that simple - a great place to start, and it'll pave the way for people who might actually improve things. Deck chairs on the Titanic and all that... worrying about the 'big picture' that you seem most interested in isn't appropriate when he's trashing the place, making future solutions harder.

I don't share your blanket condemnation of the other politicians, or believe in what little I've learned of your ex-CIA analysts' claims of the forces driving us to perdition. I can't argue on an even footing with climate-change deniers who spend inordinate amount of time on the subject either. For that matter, I can't argue on an equal basis with followers of Baal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_(demon)). That doesn't make their theology right, or climate change a myth, or deep-state conspiracies true.

And of course there is corruption and people with some selfish motives in politics. Of course economics aren't what Adam Smith is presumed to have said; although he was actually quite the realist himself. I've said, and I suspect others have, that the solution, such as it is, is to push for more transparency, to vote for people with ethics, and to oppose inhumane and destructive policies along with those who support them. That seems like quite a specific set of 'solutions' to me.

Cascade

08-19-2019, 06:00 PM

Hi Ken,

I don't believe all politicians are in politics for their own benefit. I supported Bernie last time. This time I'd still be glad to vote for him if he's nominated, but I'd rather vote for Elizabeth Warren. She's working to help the regular people, for example fighting to establish the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. She understands the trials of people who don't have enough money because of what her family went through as she was growing up. She understands the law - she's been a law professor. She's extremely smart and was convinced by others to go into politics. She uses her spunk and intelligence to fight for economics that will benefit people. She works to give everyone A Fighting Chance (the title of her book published in 2014). She would work hard for all of us to have a chance at a decent life.

I was impressed by the way Sanders and Warren were friendly at the debate - I think they are both wanting to do what is best for the country, and tearing each other down would not help the progressive cause.

I definitely don't have answers to the pressing issues of our time. I think we need to be able to have reasonable conversations about possible solutions. I want to see politicians that will support a good solution whether it's proposed by their party or by the opposition.

~Cascade

So be it, ...

kburgess

08-19-2019, 11:30 PM

I respect your desire, but I have not seen any of the Dems propose any idea that is doable and would actually work. Talk is cheap, but as we have seen through many years of Obama, lots of good ideas, but nothing that actually resulted in anything.

Bailing out banks when he could have just let them fail, and then hand that same money to the local communities to keep the credit markets afloat.

Endless war w/ISIS, and DJT knocked them out in a few months

Health Care that would work, and we get higher premiums and tons of red tape. This one is still in the works, but if we could do private insurance with standardized data record formats we would have a good system to have competition provide a better level of care overall.

Things have to be financially sound BEFORE they are presented, and none of the Dems show anything of the kind. Bernie is a socialist nut, who does not stand a chance and has nothing that is economically sound, and Elizabeth is not much better.

I understand that they may 'Sound' good, but there has to be substance beneath all of the words, and NONE of them have anything of merit.
Just my opinion,
Thanks,
Ken.
BTW, all other nations would love any one of them to get in, for they will return the US to being the worlds piggy bank, and just milk us dry. Not good for us. Think of how you try to run your own household finances, we have to do the same as a country and have not been doing so for over 40 years and it is killing us. Time for us to get our own house in order, and then we can lead the world by example and mentorship, not by handouts.

I don't believe all politicians are in politics for their own benefit. I supported Bernie last time. ...