City Proposes Pine Grove Square development to replace parking lot by Hopmonk

[Dorothy Friberg]

I love the idea of this project. Perhaps they could be "walk up" apartments for the un-autoed among us. In the heart of town - new vitality to an already friendly place. Of course there would need to be limited spaces for deliveries, etc. (the etc. is the tricky part). Let's start saying CAN DO instead of CAN'T DO.

[Mrs. Wacco]

Thank you for your forward-thinking!


I love the idea of this project. Perhaps they could be "walk up" apartments for the un-autoed among us. In the heart of town - new vitality to an already friendly place. Of course there would need to be limited spaces for deliveries, etc. (the etc. is the tricky part). Let's start saying CAN DO instead of CAN'T DO.

[Sieglinde]

Not using the available parking at CVS is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Using the parking does not help or harm CVS.

[cw707]

Yes, you are probably right. Regardless, it's just my own personal protest to a view (the lovely cement parking lot in the center of town) that I didn't want to see. I'm funny that way; I feel like every time I go along with something that I don't want, I'm supporting the next attempt by someone to do the same type of thing again. (I also won't do any shopping at Whole Foods until they stop selling dead, highly intelligent octopus in their fresh seafood counters.) My objections as you point out don't impact CVS, or Whole Foods, but sometimes I feel I have to make my own stand about something, even if that stand is just an internal one. Regarding parking, I suppose the next thing someone will say is that I shouldn't complain about parking if I'm not willing to use the CVS parking. Okay, I won't complain. In fact, I never even considered parking there when I did complain about parking; that parking lot is never an option for me, so it wasn't even in my thoughts. But thanks for your thoughts everyone.



Not using the available parking at CVS is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Using the parking does not help or harm CVS.

[rossmen]

When parking becomes tighter in seebasstoepull, this lot being full will negatively impact cvs . I wonder how robust the city settlement with them is. I used to park at the srplaza for free. Also the lot where the Sebastopol hotel parking will be. Free and abundant parking has been essential to the economic vitality of Sebastopol as well as strip malls and shopping malls.

Personally I wish cars were illegal. But then my anarchist tendencies get in the way. And I think computer driven cars need to hold their own on racetracks, not so different than our roadways, before we let them on. They don't need to win, just not get smashed out of the way.

And that's where I think the pgs concepts are. What was the word before the council meeting? Object now for lawsuit fodder? And what's the word now? Keep objecting, plenty of time? Ouch!

<br><br>
Not using the available parking at CVS is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Using the parking does not help or harm CVS.

[pixeee nation]

So let's follow this logic....if the City sells the property, then the City is not in control of the property anymore and someone will take parking away to build something-no one buys real estate to do nothing. So what's the benefit to the community if the City sells the lot?

Exactly...whenEVER there is money exchanged ....We MUST keep aware that it is mostly to fluff someone's pocket and NOT for the "Public Good" ...jest sayn....Thank You for making sense. <3 e.m.c.

[pixeee nation]

... i have no trouble parking and walking a block, or two, or three to visit or see something i want to see. since parking is easy in Sebastopol...

It is easy to say that NOW; however the population of Sonoma County is growing like cRazy (lets face it) and there are those that may not be able to walk even a couple of blocks i.e Elderly or Wheelchair or Broken Legs etc...and TRUST parking is key to a shopping area ...as much as i am NOT a fan of vehicles per se they are at times a "necessary evil"...and We must START looking at the way OUR future will play out..Care Infinite e.m.c

[podfish]

It is easy to say that NOW; however the population of Sonoma County is growing like cRazy (lets face it) and there are those that may not be able to walk even a couple of blocks i.e Elderly or Wheelchair or Broken Legs etc...and TRUST parking is key to a shopping area .....if you're elderly with a broken leg, getting in your car, driving to town, parking, getting your stuff back into the car, driving to god knows where you found a place to live, unloading, getting back into bed --- is way harder than leaving your new digs downtown to do the same shopping.

More parking isn't a solution to less housing. As you observe, the population is growing like cRazy. So where do they drive their cars home to?

[1104GT]

You just made a great argument for building housing in town. Then the elderly, mobility challenged etc.will actually live close to services and won't need to drive and park.

Parking is NOT the key to the the success of a shopping area. Housing within walking distance is.

Those who live in places where they need to drive to goods and services do so by choice. They chose to deal with parking challenges. I don't think it is incumbent upon the those who live in town to sacrifice their quality of life to provide parking in prime locations to those who chose to drive to town.


...there are those that may not be able to walk even a couple of blocks i.e Elderly or Wheelchair or Broken Legs etc....

[ChefJayTay]

I'm curious how many people think the city will see a $30,000 profit from the development of this space...
We're talking the sale of the property, not some fantasy about tax dollars offsetting real estate.
Are we even going to recover the costs of this idiotic study?

[jerichsalud]

The reality is that there is a dire need for housing. I was born in Sebastopol, have a Masters degree and am a working professional, and it is really difficult to find housing in Sebastopol let alone Sonoma County that I can afford. If you are not directly experiencing the severe housing crisis yourself, many, many, people are and especially after the fires.

Another important reality is that things change. Heck, the train used to run right through downtown and through where this very parking lot is. That is not to say that means automatically that we should have housing in this parking lot, but among other things we do need to be weary of the severe housing crisis and how to address it.

The housing crisis is in large part due to that since the great recession the building of housing has decreased significantly and not kept up with increased demand. In fact, since 2008 funds for affordable housing in California have decreased by 87%, and with Trump's tax plan there will be even less funding.

We need housing and now we need to figure out where. Some questions we might want to consider include-- How many places can we viably build housing in Sonoma County and Sebastopol? Do we want housing to be downtown, dense, with easy access to transportation and services so that we can limit environmental and climate impacts or do we want sprawl into our green areas, or do we say, go somewhere else? We also need to ask ourselves what kind of compromises we might need to make to create this needed housing, and we might need to consider if we make these changes such as adding housing downtown how can we make the most of this, will this mean improving walkability, bikability, public transportation etc?

Maybe there are other lots in the town of Sebastopol that would work, but this is also a City owned lot and just like Santa Rosa is doing, selling/leasing their property for developing housing, this may be a way to use some of the little land that is left for building and possibly offer a more reasonable price for a developer to develop housing while also meeting our climate goals etc.

It is not a simple issue or question, but a very important one about the future of our town and communities. The area is becoming increasingly less affordable for many residents, families, and workers and we need to provide more housing. Lets find some solutions!

[Mrs. Wacco]

Thank you for your very thoughtful and accurate post!

The reality is that there is a dire need for housing. ...

[Icssoma]

thank you for laying this out.
i am a green zone/open space/agricultural advocate (which means higher density in town) given that i want more housing.
the key is compromise. we have stagnation without compromise.
what we have now is untenable.
i want to move forward with housing and believe this is a good site.
is it possible to agree on housing, this site (or other downtown sites which are city-owned, or with few impediments), and look at what we need to do to go forward?

The reality is that there is a dire need for housing. ...

[Barry]

I'm curious how many people think the city will see a $30,000 profit from the development of this space...
We're talking the sale of the property, not some fantasy about tax dollars offsetting real estate. ...

42503According to the financial feasibility study that was presented to the city council on June 6, 2017 (https://livestream.com/accounts/14608643/events/6868439/videos/157692230), the estimated value of the land (based on it's mixed use development potential) was either $989,000 or $1,320,000 based on the 2 schemes studied.

See the full feasibility study here. (https://www.ci.sebastopol.ca.us/getattachment/City-Government/Departments-Services/Planning/Projects/KMA-final-4-11-172.pdf.aspx?lang=en-US)




Are we even going to recover the costs of this idiotic study?
If the Pine Grove Square concept doesn't go forward, then the cost won't be recovered, at least directly (which is common for projects that are explored but not realized). It could be argued that there is still value in having the study for any other parking related issues that come before the city in the future.

[pixeee nation]

After reading everyone's opinion ...i feel that i am happy that at least people care enough to have one. For me personally i am a Farmer at Heart so i need to look at Roots of things a lot. Sadly we ALL should have been looking at the future in more sustainable ways YEARS ago and MOST were not. Same thing with the Fires ; it was PAINFULLY obvious that there has been TOO much poor planing and apparently TOO many have been concerned with financial gain in pretty much every aspect of OUR Lives ...there are those that put financial gain above COMMON SENSE and then we find ourselves trying to re configure ...when anyone that Plants or Builds anything knows that it is WAY better to PLAN things out as Good as You can RATHER than TRY to fix it later.

For me the Fires at least in most of the areas that burned they should have ONLY been allowed to build with somewhat MORE "Fire Proofing" materials ...i.e Adobe , Metal , Brick ...(please forgive as i am not an engineer perhaps there are better things than i'm mentioning) i know for a fact that there are composite "shingles" that are NOT only insulating (they also keep the home warmer in Winter & cooler in Summer) & they are more Fire retardant & they are "Greener" and it should be mandatory to have Water tanks on Land prone to Fires..

i only use the Fire as an example ...the bigger issue here to me is the MOST HUGE problem World wide pretty much ...Populations are out of hand ..when i was growing up We had "Zero Population Growth" ..now hardly anyone EVER mentions it..so now we have DENSE populations rising everywhere & in OUR Country EVERYONE mostly wants a vehicle & the "right" to have UNLIMITED amounts of Children along with MANY other things to be "comfortable" but at what cost?.

To be honest i am moving away because i see this is a big problem ...The Bay Area is so densely populated now & so many are rushing around to jobs to pick up their Children etc..that more & more are driving crazy too. i Love Sonoma and most of its People however "mo people mo problems" ...

i appreciate EVERYTHING that is being thought here . It is important that We as a 'Community" of THE WORLD care enough to take the time to make changes that are SURELY needed however We must look to FIX THE ROOTS in order for the FUTURE to be more easier to sustain for OUR Children.

As far as i see bureaucracy has NOT been very clean in TOO many ways & that enables distrust to grow because TOO many are making money on the side and NOT caring TRULY about the future ....i Pray that WE as a whole can get it together NOW not 10 or 20 years from now..and speaking & dealing with reality of our past mistakes is very important which EVER decision is made in ANY of these special Towns & Cities futures. We have ALREADY passed the half way mark on protecting OUR Environment & must now mop up & DO things different. i Love You ALL .Please forgive the length of this ...Care Infinite <3 :Yinyangv:

[MikeH]

Some apartments for persons without cars, even deed restricted, and lease restricted, and coming without a parking space associated with the apartment.

And some very small studios, in the neighborhood of 400 square feet. Studios are in very short supply.

Typically you see two or more cars per apartment for the residents who live there; so you see the streets near apartments packed with cars parked at the curb.

I admire people who choose to live car-free, and have met some whose main mode of transport is the bike, supplemented by public transport and occasionally renting a car for vacations or out-of-town trips.

[Dorothy Friberg]

Along this bent ("parking in the neighborhood") I personally am doing exactly that two days a week, in different neighborhoods in my van. I"d like to dispense with the van and have a place with electricity and running H2O.
Therefore such a project holds promise for me although I may be too low income for Sebastopol. The quality of life here is attractive, though much of what interests me is overpriced (like classes @ $7+ per) Perhaps I can rent one of the small store fronts for 2nd hand stuff. (no one is allowed to steal my ideas):wink:

[Barry]

Some apartments for persons without cars, even deed restricted, and lease restricted, and coming without a parking space associated with the apartment....
Is this possible? Are there any developments in Sonoma County (or elsewhere) that are explicitly for those that are car-free??

[Barry]

:vote:

I've added a POLL on
whether you support the
Pine Grove Square concept
to convert downtown parking lot by Hopmonk
to a mixed-use housing development
to the top of this thread on the website.


To see the poll and vote,
click here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?123027-City-Proposes-Pine-Grove-Square-development-to-replace-parking-lot-by-Hopmonk&p=217784#top).

(note that the votes are public)

(https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?123027-City-Proposes-Pine-Grove-Square-development-to-replace-parking-lot-by-Hopmonk&p=217784#top)
:vote1: (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?123027-City-Proposes-Pine-Grove-Square-development-to-replace-parking-lot-by-Hopmonk&p=217784#top)

[cw707]

Question: I didn't see this info anywhere, but is this proposed housing being designated specifically for seniors and disabled folks? Not sure how this would work, and probably need to be lower income housing for them as well maybe? Also, many people with disabilities have vehicles that they would need to use for services outside of walking distance and Sebastopol. Where would they park? I may have missed some initial info about this project; if so, apologies. Any info would be helpful. Thanks.



I love the idea of this project. Perhaps they could be "walk up" apartments for the un-autoed among us. In the heart of town - new vitality to an already friendly place. Of course there would need to be limited spaces for deliveries, etc. (the etc. is the tricky part). Let's start saying CAN DO instead of CAN'T DO.

[Barry]

Question: I didn't see this info anywhere, but is this proposed housing being designated specifically for seniors and disabled folks? ...

There isn't a "proposed" housing development for this project concept yet, just a feasibility study (https://www.ci.sebastopol.ca.us/getattachment/City-Government/Departments-Services/Planning/Projects/KMA-final-4-11-172.pdf.aspx?lang=en-US) to determine an approximate land value based on a selected possible development scenario:


The concept for the residential component is “affordability by design” targeting young professionals and empty nesters, both demographic groups that tend to be attracted to living in active, mixed-use settings. Since the units are designed to be relatively small, they will be more affordable than larger units in comparable first-class developments. Average market rate rents are currently pegged at about $1,600/month, making them affordable to households earning in the range of 100% to 120% of AMI in Sonoma County (Median to Moderate Income). In terms of deed restricted affordable units, because this will be a public-private project the City has the opportunity to set the number of affordable units by agreement with the future developer. For purposes of this analysis, it is assumed that 20% of the units would be reserved for Low Income households (incomes up to 80% of AMI), which would equate to rents in the range of roughly $800 to $1,000/month.

[Norbu]

I tried to park at Rite-Aid yesterday and it's parking lot was full. As we all know, for the most part the cars in that lot did not belong to shoppers at Rite-Aid but it is being unlawfully used for downtown parking, as is the Whole Foods Lot. When the city in it's desire to generate funds to build a new city hall eliminates the parking we are discussing this will put further pressure on the Rite-Aid and Whole Foods lots and they will undoubtedly put in controlled parking, further decreasing the downtown parking. The Art Center parking, which the parking study included as parking for downtown, is often fully occupied for events at the Art Center.

Cities like Petaluma increase their downtown parking in order to have a flourishing downtown business center, local shopping and a vibrant energetic city. This wrong minded elimination of downtown parking will not turn Sebastopol into a Norway and put everyone on bicycles. It will turn our vibrant downtown into abandoned storefronts and send local business to the malls where parking is plentiful.

With a slight zoning change lots of housing can be built outside of the downtown area, and folks bused in on jitneys. Why wasn't the CVS site or the upcoming Hotel site used for housing? Rezoning would have made those sites perfect for housing.

They weren't rezoned because the city didn't own them and selling them wouldn't have provided funds for a new city hall that some in government want. I used to be proud of our city council and city manager but my faith in our city government is flagging. Let's listen to our new council member Michael the boot maker, he knows how important parking is to downtown business and keeping Sebastopol's shopping local and our downtown an exciting place.
:Yinyangv::heart::waccosun:

[1104GT]

Your post contains a few incorrect/inaccurate statements that I would like to address:

You should try the CVS lot. Unlike Rite Aid and Whole Foods, it is public parking and never full.


I tried to park at Rite-Aid yesterday and it's parking lot was full. As we all know, for the most part the cars in that lot did not belong to shoppers at Rite-Aid but it is being unlawfully used for downtown parking, as is the Whole Foods Lot.

Pine Grove Square is not a proposal for a new City Hall. The concept is to provide housing and some commercial space.


When the city in it's desire to generate funds to build a new city hall

Petaluma added housing, retail space and a movie theater downtown more than they added parking. That, along with their closer proximity to high paying jobs in the Bay Area has driven the upswing in vitality.


Cities like Petaluma increase their downtown parking in order to have a flourishing downtown business center, local shopping and a vibrant energetic city.

I'm not sure what zoning changes you think need to happen. I worked on the General Plan update and know that our zoning is actually pretty housing friendly.

Why not build housing IN TOWN so people don't need to drive or get on a jitney? Building outside town is called sprawl. Sprawl=bad idea.


With a slight zoning change lots of housing can be built outside of the downtown area, and folks bused in on jitneys.

CVS being built had nothing to do with zoning. The site was zoned for housing at the time. It was a matter of economic timing. That's what the developer wanted to build. You are arguing that the City should stay out of development, but the CVS project might have become housing if they City had been in a position to take a more active role in finding the right developer and steering the project.


Why wasn't the CVS site or the upcoming Hotel site used for housing? Rezoning would have made those sites perfect for housing.

I'm actually quite proud of our City Council for taking an active role in tying to address the housing crisis in this county. You are obviously a drive-to-town person who values parking above housing. Relying on out-of-town people is not wise or sustainable. People living downtown will do far more to increasing the vibrancy of of Sebastopol than people who have to drive to get here.


I used to be proud of our city council and city manager but my faith in our city government is flagging.

SaveSave

[MikeH]

I honestly think that the more housing that's built, the worse the "housing crisis" will get. That is not to say more housing shouldn't be built, but just how I see it.

Why would that be, or is that craziness to claim that? Well it seems more housing is a magnet for people to come from out of the area. The are new homes being built in Rohnert Park and Petaluma by KB Homes and "Signature Homes" and my first hand experience is talking with out-of-the-area buyers of some of those homes. I have done no poll; it is just anecdotal. They are not local first time home buyers, but have sold homes in other counties to put a large down payment and make the mortgage affordable. They are bringing out of the area cash to the transaction.

People claim home prices and rents here are high, but really they are low relative to Marin, and very, very low relative to San Francisco. So maybe that's it: building more makes people in more expensive areas think "look at this brand new affordable living that is available to me if I move to Sonoma County."

I rarely agree with anything our supervisors say, but one who I really dislike has said of this 'housing crisis" that we cannot build our way out of it. There is one thing said that i do think may be correct.

[Mrs. Wacco]

Thank you for clarifying the many misconceptions in that previous post!


Your post contains a few incorrect/inaccurate statements that I would like to address:...
SaveSave

[tommy]

The ideas in your post are fantasy based and not grounded in reality. They are another example of NIMBY, "I don't want this housing, put it someplace else".

Housing was not built at the CVS lot or the new hotel because both sites are in the commercial downtown area, and therefore too costly for housing. "Abandoned storefronts" and "jitneys"...? ... you must be smoking some of that newly legalized crop.


I tried to park at Rite-Aid yesterday and it's parking lot was full. ...

[gypsey]

I tried to park at Rite-Aid yesterday and it's parking lot was full....

Thanks for a very good post. Another extremely congested parking lot is the one at the library. Long lines of cars wanting to use the library or access main street businesses are frequent. One statement I recall from city council was that the HopMonk parking lot is seldom full b/c there is "plenty" of parking. The reality is that any evening or late afternoon--it is packed. We have a serious parking problem here and while some parking is available at CVS, it is not convenient to local businesses downtown. And there are those who at night or in inclement weather, are uncomfortable crossing that very busy intersection. Just some thoughts.

[podfish]

I honestly think that the more housing that's built, the worse the "housing crisis" will get. That is not to say more housing shouldn't be built, but just how I see it..... Well it seems more housing is a magnet for people to come from out of the area. .... They are not local first time home buyers, but have sold homes in other counties to put a large down payment and make the mortgage affordable. They are bringing out of the area cash to the transaction.that's sort of true. It's analogous to the idea of building more lanes on the freeway - it just encourages more people to live farther from their destination so the traffic actually increases.
The problem is in the solution. For roads, sure, don't build them. Instead, build housing close to destinations and add mass transit. Also, make things walking- and bicycle-friendly.
So what's the parallel answer for housing? If you don't build housing, you don't squeeze out those from other areas who bring cash. You make it so ONLY those people can live here.

[rossmen]

CVS was not zoned for housing and if the city had tried to make that change the owners would have sued and won. City leaders are welcoming and guiding high rise development to make money for improvements and high on the priority lists is a new city hall.

I am not excited about the city selling central public space to a developer even with guidance. Maybe if it was the school district selling Parkside to Luther Burbank housing for affordable units and a pocket park. If the city is this involved it should stick to building affordable housing, something it has done well.

[1104GT]

Just for accuracy, the Pellini (CVS) property was, and still is, zoned CD - Downtown Core. Housing is permitted as part of a mixed-use development (retail on lower floor, housing above).

Link to the zoning map is: https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/SebastopolSite/media/Documents/Zoning_ordiance/sebastopol_zoning_map_05_2011.pdf?ext=.pdf



CVS was not zoned for housing and if the city had tried to make that change the owners would have sued and won.
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[rossmen]

The number one rule of real estate development is that you can't beat the market. Any individual developer won't change the market, however government can change the market by changing the market rules.

Sebastopol partnering with a developer for three story infill will not change the housing market. It will change downtown. Rather than the current concepts I would prefer the city keep the parking as open space, maybe guide the chamber lot into some straightup affordable housing with efficient public parking, and daylight Calder creek for a continuous greenway from lves to the Laguna including a new public square less hemmed in by traffic. The old square could be parking again. That would be nice.

[ChefJayTay]

Keep in mind the parking lot is not even at intended capacity currently.
There are office spaces for lease above the Sonoma west times.
The entire 200S Main Building is for sale.

[tommy]

I agree with your comments about developers and the market.

Where is the "chamber lot" you suggest for affordable housing?

Day lighting Calder Creek for a greenway to the Laguna, and a new public square? Can you pay for that... as I doubt the City has the spare cash lying around. It's not unlike the proposals for the Pellini / CVS property, to build affordable housing, or save the old buildings for reuse with a tea shop, macrame designs, and wine tasting. Where was the money supposed to come from? There was none for those ideas, including the street & utility repairs required. Thus they never happened.

Projects like day lighting Calder Creek, a new public square, and affordable housing all require public funding... which is in short supply. Affordable housing has been built with creative public / private funding, such as by Burbank Housing in Santa Rosa. The funding picture has changed recently, helped by new CA State initiatives, and constrained by the new tax measure.



The number one rule of real estate development is that you can't beat the market. Any individual developer won't change the market, however government can change the market by changing the market rules.

Sebastopol partnering with a developer for three story infill will not change the housing market. It will change downtown. Rather than the current concepts I would prefer the city keep the parking as open space, maybe guide the chamber lot into some straightup affordable housing with efficient public parking, and daylight Calder creek for a continuous greenway from lves to the Laguna including a new public square less hemmed in by traffic. The old square could be parking again. That would be nice.

[Barry]

...Where is the "chamber lot" you suggest for affordable housing?...

The chamber lot is one of best-kept secrets in Sebastopol! It behind the chamber building and it is public parking! It was included in the Pine Grove Square concept.


https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2018-02-04_12-13-10.png

[rossmen]

Unlike the cvs property the city owns the parking lot. I don't know who owns the lot behind the chamber of commerce and museum. This lot is underutilized and was part of the parking study and pine grove concept.

There have been affordable projects built in sebtown over the years and the city is in compliance with ABAG (https://www.abag.ca.gov/) requirements. With the new state funding maybe it's time to develop another one. My favorite location is across from Brookhaven. This lot is owned by the Catholic church and has been on the short list for affordable infill for twenty years. The city could also let people camp again in the park they bought with open space money. That was really affordable.


I agree with your comments about developers and the market....