Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

[Don Watanabe]

This taken directly from the WHO fact sheet directed by the link in your message:

"Pursue prevention strategies

To prevent cancer, people may:


increase avoidance of the risk factors listed above;
vaccinate against HPV and hepatitis B virus;
control occupational hazards;
reduce exposure to non-ionizing radiation by sunlight (ultraviolet light);
reduce exposure to ionizing radiation (occupational or medical diagnostic imaging)."

It specifically lists non-ionizing radiation from ultra violet light and says nothing about cell phones, wifi, smart meters, etc.


The WHO lists non-ionizing radiation [ie: cell phones, wi-fi, smart meters etc] as a cancer risk.

Excerpts from (emphasis mine) https://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs297/en/
...

[Sasu]

True they don't name cell phones etc, and they do name sunlight in a later section, but that doesn't mean they only mean sunlight. True, it's not clear. In another arm of the WHO, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (at the World Health Organization) classified non-ionizing radiation as a 2B (possible) human carcinogen in 2011. (https://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2011/pdfs/pr208_E.pdf) This was based on cell phone studies.

The $25-million multi-year study by The National Toxicology Program at the National Institutes of Health found a statistically significant increase in malignant brain cancers (glioma), as well as benign nerve tumors (schwannomas) of the heart from non-ionizing radiation exposure -cell phone frequencies. (https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/results/areas/cellphones/index.html).



This taken directly from the WHO fact sheet directed by the link in your message:...
...
It specifically lists non-ionizing radiation from ultra violet light and says nothing about cell phones, wifi, smart meters, etc.

[Sasu]

Why these studies are important: There’s a lot of misinformation from PG&E about how their smart meters work. When PG&E was deploying smart meters in 2010 they compared the radiation of smart meters to cell phones, and the CPUC said the same thing. Here is a comparison of a survey and a peer reviewed published study done on smart meters. The results of the study: The most frequently reported symptoms from exposure to smart meters were (1) insomnia, (2) headaches, (3) tinnitus, (4) fatigue, (5) cognitive disturbances, (6) dysesthesias (abnormal sensation), and (7) dizziness. The effects of these symptoms on people’s lives were significant.

(https://emfsafetynetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Symptoms-after-Exposure-to-Smart-Meter-Radiation.pdf)see Symptoms after Exposure to Smart Meter Radiation (https://emfsafetynetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Symptoms-after-Exposure-to-Smart-Meter-Radiation.pdf)

[Sasu]

The City of Sebastopol sent the attached letter to PG&E on March 21 recommending they not install smart meters at this time.

[arthunter]

The last time that I saw Deborah Tavares she was reading a letter to the Sebastopol City Council by the chairwoman of the Richmond City Council, Javanka Beckles, which urged other city councils to take seriously the claims that residents were experiencing serious mind and body affects from EM fields which were directed at them. Shortly after that Deborah was hit with a lawsuit and stopped her activism. Her last words to me were about extreme targeting.


But back to the subject of this thread. If you click on the PDF in the middle of this link, you'll find a good scientific explanation of how EM fields affect the human body https://emfsafetynetwork.org/harvard-doctor-warns-against-wi-fi-hazards/

And now there's this for debate
https://www.sott.net/article/345599-5G-networks-will-use-the-same-frequencies-as-pain-inflicting-crowd-control-weapons
<br><br>
ok, put all this EMF info, and all the thread on controlling people - can't recall and leaving asap - in the context of documents shown in this interview by deborah tavares, who i've known for many years here in sonoma county, and see if it doesn't make sense in the grand perspective planned and executed by those who plan and execute the show:
https://www.stopthecrime.net/source.htmlhttps://youtu.be/UmTSXRUpT9w
jude
(https://youtu.be/UmTSXRUpT9w)

[Sieglinde]

Mine is installed. Stupid Sebastopol. Grow up.


The City of Sebastopol sent the attached letter to PG&E on March 21 recommending they not install smart meters at this time.

[Jude Iam]

Since it is you who has issues with our boycotting CVS and our view on 'smart' (sic) meters, perhaps you ought to leave here for somewhere you fit better and like the people more. I daresay you'll not be missed.

Jude, on behalf of myself, "stupid Sebastopol" and the rest of progressive, activist West Sonoma County

Mine is installed. Stupid Sebastopol. Grow up.

[Jude Iam]

OK, here we have the revelation from the horse's mouth: admission of the REAL reason for the hard, universal push for 'smart' (sic) meters. Wake up, America. Jude
Global Data Firm: “We Help Utilities Surveil and Profile Their Customers, and Monetize Home Surveillance Data” (https://takebackyourpower.net/onzo-admits-smart-meter-spying-for-profit/)

March 25, 2017 by Josh del Sol

In one fell swoop, every utility’s claim of “smart meters do not spy on you” is now dissolved.

Their myth is now shattered.

In a cutesy marketing video, shown below, global data analytics company Onzo (https://www.onzo.com) admits to helping utilities surveil and profile their customers — and sell direct surveillance access to their customers’ homes.


“We use this characterized profile to give the utility… the ability to monetize their customer data by providing a direct link to appropriate third-party organizations based on the customer’s identified character.”


Watch Onzo’s rather jaw dropping 90-second marketing video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uluKjzqHDz0
So, what does this mean?

See Jerry Day’s excellent commentary on the implications Onzo’s admission and the Internet of Things:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zIDW7H6XqA


Onzo’s blatant admission comes after years of industry speculation about using ‘smart’ meters for mass surveillance — the main home-access point in a plan of unprecedented scope and profit potential.
In a 2015 interview, a high-level NARUC director signaled the intention and scope of the agenda:


“I think the data [harvested by ‘smart’ meters] is going to be worth a lot more than the commodity that’s being consumed to generate the data.”
—Miles Keogh, Director, Research and Grants, National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners, 1 January 2015 (view source (https://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/energy-electricity-data-use-113901))


Continues here (https://takebackyourpower.net/onzo-admits-smart-meter-spying-for-profit/)


The City of Sebastopol sent the attached letter to PG&E on March 21 recommending they not install smart meters at this time.

[Sieglinde]

Reminds me of the old "America Love it or Leave it Slogan" I can live anywhere I want to and I assume that the First Admendment still applies. I see stupid, I call it out.


Since it is you who has issues with our boycotting CVS and our view on 'smart' (sic) meters, perhaps you ought to leave here for somewhere you fit better and like the people more. I daresay you'll not be missed.

Jude, on behalf of myself, "stupid Sebastopol" and the rest of progressive, activist West Sonoma County

[podfish]

Reminds me of the old "America Love it or Leave it Slogan" I can live anywhere I want to and I assume that the First Admendment still applies. I see stupid, I call it out.funny, that was exactly the phrase that came to my mind too. Along with "Make Sebastopol Great Again". -- who knows why those two seem associated??

[podfish]

OK, here we have the revelation from the horse's mouth: admission of the REAL reason for the hard, universal push for 'smart' (sic) meters. Wake up, America. ....
In one fell swoop, every utility’s claim of “smart meters do not spy on you” is now dissolved.
Their myth is now shattered. .... Watch Onzo’s rather jaw dropping 90-second marketing video:.that's a typically conspiratorial midset. First, there's no REAL REASON. There are lots of reasons. Sure, that's one of them, and without "Waking up, America" can disabuse itself of the myth. Oh yeah, shatter the myth. Whatever. Somehow my jaw didn't drop to learn that the modern connectivity can be used for data-collection.

Personally, I'm kind of surprised at the level of legal restrictions that are imposed (I didn't say followed) on data collection of individuals. And if my jaw drops, it's that largely these companies seem reasonably willing to do some anonymizing since they are quite interested in the aggregate. This to me seems a sign that it's still an immature technology. There are too many advantages for "them" to know everything. You'll see it as a crime- or terrorist-prevention tool; if something shocking (in the real sense of shock) happens, it'll be more than just Trump voters who will support enabling of the surveillance capabilities that are already there. I think it was Brin who wrote that fighting for privacy gives tools to the privileged but won't really protect the rest of us.

So bottom line, this seems a weird hill to plant your flag. Your phone knows so much more about you 'cuz you probably keep it with you a lot, and if anyone cares to do it they can use it as a microphone without you knowing. Fortunately we're a few years away from cheap & easy data processing on that level - despite the fears of several others on this board.

as you can tell, it's not the overarching thesis I disagree with, it's the pearl-clutching over something really minor in both health hazard and risk to liberty.

[Jude Iam]

Yes, Sieglinde, First Amendment; that one - and a few others. Protecting our diminishing CIVIL LIBERTIES is hardly "stupid", is it? Jude

Constitutional rights

The right to privacy often means the right to personal autonomy, or the right to choose whether or not to engage in certain acts or have certain experiences. Several amendments to the U.S. Constitution have been used in varying degrees of success in determining a right to personal autonomy:


The First Amendment protects the privacy of beliefs
The Third Amendment protects the privacy of the home against the use of it for housing soldiers
The Fourth Amendment protects privacy against unreasonable searches
The Fifth Amendment protects against self-incrimination, which in turn protects the privacy of personal information
The Ninth Amendment says that the "enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." This has been interpreted as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.

The right to privacy is most often cited in the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, which states:
No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
However, the protections have been narrowly defined and usually only pertain to family, marriage, motherhood, procreation and child rearing.
For example, the Supreme Court first recognized that the various Bill of Rights guarantees creates a "zone of privacy" in Griswold v. Connecticut, a 1965 ruling that upheld marital privacy and struck down bans on contraception.
The court ruled in 1969 that the right to privacy protected a person's right to possess and view pornography in his own home. Justice Thurgood Marshall wrote in Stanley v. Georgia that, " If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a State has no business telling a man, sitting alone in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch."
The controversial case Roe v. Wade in 1972 firmly established the right to privacy as fundamental, and required that any governmental infringement of that right to be justified by a compelling state interest. In Roe, the court ruled that the state's compelling interest in preventing abortion (https://www.livescience.com/28702-lawmakers-seek-abortion-bans.html) and protecting the life of the mother outweighs a mother's personal autonomy only after viability. Before viability, the mother's right to privacy limits state interference due to the lack of a compelling state interest.
In 2003, the court, in Lawrence v. Texas, overturned an earlier ruling and found that Texas had violated the rights of two gay men when it enforced a law prohibiting sodomy. [Countdown: 10 Milestones in Gay Rights History (https://www.livescience.com/28148-gay-rights-milestones.html)]
Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, "The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives. The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime. Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government."
Access to personal information

A person has the right to determine what sort of information about them is collected and how that information is used. In the marketplace, the FTC enforces this right through laws intended to prevent deceptive practices and unfair competition.
The Privacy Act of 1974 prevents unauthorized disclosure of personal information held by the federal government. A person has the right to review their own personal information, ask for corrections and be informed of any disclosures.
The Financial Monetization Act of 1999 requires financial institutions to provide customers with a privacy policy that explains what kind of information is being collected and how it is being used. Financial institutions are also required to have safeguards that protect the information they collect from customers.
The Fair Credit Reporting Act protects personal financial information collected by credit reporting agencies. The act puts limits on who can access such information and requires agencies to have simple processes by which consumers can get their information, review it and make corrections.
Online privacy

Internet users can protect their privacy by taking actions that prevent the collection of information. Most people who use the Internet are familiar with tracking cookies. These small stores of data keep a log of your online activities and reports back to the tracker host. The information is usually for marketing purposes. To many Internet users, this is an invasion of privacy. But there are several ways to avoid tracking cookies (https://www.technewsdaily.com/7703-tracking-cookie-definition.html).
Browsers and social media platforms, such as Facebook (https://www.livescience.com/32558-how-private-is-your-facebook.html) and Twitter, allow users to choose levels of privacy settings, from share everything to only share with friends to share only the minimum, such as your name, gender and profile picture. Protecting personally identifiable information (https://www.technewsdaily.com/15421-personally-identifiable-information-definition.html) is important for preventing identity theft.
The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA) enforces a parent's right to control what information websites collect about their children. Websites that target children younger than 13 or knowingly collect information from children must post privacy policies, get parental consent before collecting information from children, allow parents to decide how such information is used and provide an opt-out option for future collection of a child's information.
Right of publicity

Just as a person has the right to keep personal information private, he or she also has the right to control the use of his or her identity for commercial promotion. Unauthorized use of one's name or likeness is recognized as an invasion of privacy.
There are four types of invasion of privacy: intrusion, appropriation of name or likeness, unreasonable publicity and false light. If a company uses a person's photo in an ad claiming that the person endorses a certain product, the person could file a lawsuit claiming misappropriation.
Movable boundaries

The Supreme Court approaches the right to privacy and personal autonomy on a case-by-case basis. As public opinion changes regarding relationships and activities, and the boundaries of personal privacy change, largely due to social media and an atmosphere of "sharing," the definition of the right to privacy is ever-changing.
Related:


What is Democracy? (https://www.livescience.com/20919-democracy.html)
What is Freedom? (https://www.livescience.com/21212-what-is-freedom.html)
Freedom of Assembly (https://www.livescience.com/21229-freedom-of-assembly.html)
Freedom of Expression (https://www.livescience.com/21247-freedom-of-expression.html)
Freedom of Religion (https://www.livescience.com/21328-freedom-of-religion.html)
Freedom of Speech (https://www.livescience.com/21260-freedom-of-speech.html)
Freedom of the Press (https://www.livescience.com/21312-freedom-of-the-press.html)
The Second Amendment & the Right to Bear Arms (https://www.livescience.com/26485-second-amendment.html)

Further reading:


Legal Information Institute (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/Privacy)
Exploring Constitutional Conflicts (https://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/rightofprivacy.html)




Reminds me of the old "America Love it or Leave it Slogan" I can live anywhere I want to and I assume that the First Admendment still applies. I see stupid, I call it out.

[Sasu]

The CPUC will hold a voting meeting in Santa Rosa on Thursday April 6 at 9:30 am. This is a rare event, as these meetings are usually held in San Francisco. Sign up for public comments start at 9am till 9:30am. If you arrive after 9:30, you wait till all speakers finish and the President asks is there anyone else. Speakers likely get one minute.

If you are getting higher bills because of PG&E’s bi-monthly estimated reading this is a chance to speak directly to the CPUC about it. See this https://emfsafetynetwork.org/are-pges-estimated-utility-bills-costing-you-more/
Or talk about banning smart meters and why.

Thursday April 6 at 9:30 am
Santa Rosa City Hall Council Chambers
100 Santa Rosa Ave., Santa Rosa
More details: https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M182/K863/182863586.PDF

[Sara S]

From this week's Sonoma West Times and News:

https://www.WaccoBB.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2017-02-27_17-25-20.png (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/)

PG&E SmartMeters installation on back burner (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/pg-e-smartmeters-installation-on-back-burner/article_c34133e0-2529-11e7-ab90-770b6cf2ab6a.html)

By Bleys Rose, Sonoma West editor, [email protected] Apr 19, 2017

PG&E appears to be in no rush to reignite the SmartMeter debate, despite having informed Sebastopol city officials they’d begin installing them in early 2017.

For nearly two years, the gas and electric company has essentially halted concerted efforts to gain widespread consumer acceptance of the self-reading utility meters in Sebastopol after meeting with objections from some residents and encountering a legally dubious ban approved by the city council.

On Monday, April 17, the general counsel of the California Public Utilities Commission weighed into the fray with a legal opinion that said the state legislature had granted the power company the right to install meters and that no city or county government could usurp that regulatory authority. Referring to Sebastopol’s ban, called Ordinance 1057, the letter to city council members noted the City of Fairfax had previously unsuccessfully challenged PUC infrastructure programs.

“It is our opinion, therefore, that the (Sebastopol) ordinance is unlawful and unenforceable,” said the letter from Arocles Aguilar, PUC general counsel.

Last month, alarmed that the PG&E suspension of installations was about to be lifted, the city council fired off a letter to company officials that called for more discussion on the issue.

“With the opposition to SmartMeters in Sebastopol, the city is concerned that any efforts to install SmartMeters in Sebastopol may cause public disturbances which will require involvement from our police department,” said a letter signed by Mayor Una Glass on March 21. “This would not be good media attention for PG&E.”

PG&E officials wrote back saying “we appreciate the continuing dialogue we are having ...” and added “… we will respond to your request in the near future.”

PG&E spokesperson Deanna Contreras characterized the company’s stance as agreeing to more discussion and as starting a very slow process of contacting customers.

“As we are doing routine maintenance and installation work, we are finding customers who want them,” she said. “It is a two-year process and we are doing just a few customers at a time. We are taking it slow because we want to ensure customers are well informed.”

She said PG&E on April 3 sent about 10 letters to residential customers who live outside Sebastopol city limits. Those letters informed customers that they could opt out of a SmartMeter with a one-time $75 fee and by paying a monthly $10 charge that would expire after 36 months.

Contreras said there are about 5,350 PG&E customer meters in Sebastopol.

Sebastopol city manager Larry McLaughlin said city offices have received hardly any inquiries about SmartMeter installations in recent months.

“Right now, if somebody called, I would tell them that PG&E has announced they will start installing meters on a routine basis when they are performing service calls at a residence, but that they would first receive consumer information and be given the opportunity to opt out,” McLaughlin said. “I have not heard of anybody getting approached who would be resistant to the idea of a meter, but then I haven’t of anybody being approached who didn’t want one either.”

[JimmyL]

After reading Bley Roses article in the Sebastopol Times (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/pg-e-smartmeters-installation-on-back-burner/article_c34133e0-2529-11e7-ab90-770b6cf2ab6a.html), I wonder how many smart meters are installed in Sebastopol already.
I've walked around the Barlow, looks like all the businesses there have them.
I had one installed at my home 5 years ago.

[Sieglinde]

Interesting question. I may stroll my neighborhood and see. We have 25 units. I know of two with Smart Meters.

[diaba]

Thought I recalled Barry wanting some proof of smartmeters effects on symptoms. Here's a video that can shed some light on the subject.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-aNRQNRtaI&feature=youtu.be

[barfly]

Thanks for posting this! It's gonna be fun...

Rather than debunk the entire video in one go, I'll throw out the first volley.

Why is it that the trace of the EKG being recorded during the "event" looks nothing at all like the static image in the later narrative?


Thought I recalled Barry wanting some proof of smartmeters effects on symptoms. Here's a video that can shed some light on the subject.

[podfish]

...Why is it that the trace of the EKG being recorded during the "event" looks nothing at all like the static image in the later narrative?Also those long wires may be good antennas, reacting to the change in power drawn through the meter. I make no claim that this is true, but I do claim that his test procedures are flawed and amateurish. This is why research gets peer-reviewed and replicated. Even when that's poorly done, it's still an improvement over these guy's single-blind test.

[spam1]

...Why is it that the trace of the EKG being recorded during the "event" looks nothing at all like the static image in the later narrative?
It is entirely possible that the EKG trace is as it is presented. BUT: an EKG is measuring very small electric currents in the body, and then you run feet of long cables back to the recorder? I would guess the most likely explanation is the EKG sensor or wires connecting it to the EKG recorder are very sensitive to electric fields and thus likely are picking up some change due the cycling smart meter.

Gauss' law tells us that whenever you make a change in an electric circuit, turning it on or off, you will create a large EMF. Notice that you will always see a spark at the plug if you unplug an active device. In fact, the faster you unplug it the bigger the spark. So, where is the control where they have a crash dummy on the bed, and repeat the experiment. A DC electric motor with a commutator creates tremendous EMF in such a way, which is why we like AC motors. Marconi's original radio operated on this principle.

When I see this repeated at a UC health or engineering lab, with proper controls, then I'll find it a lot more credulous.

[arthunter]

Can anyone point to similar testing done by the smart meter industry? Why are citizens having to do this?

The next two links will show that the concern for consumer safety is widespread

https://stopsmartmeters.org.uk/9th-grade-student-cress-wifi-experiment-attracts-international-attention/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=uVosw_v-odw

[barfly]

Why are citizens having to do this?
Great question. It's because only lay people with an agenda conduct junk science.

Regarding the kid's plant experiment, I have a high power wifi access point in the window of my bedroom to provide connectivity for the treehouse. It's set for 1W output and transmits 24/7. It has various plants around it with (surprise, surprise) no ill effects. Considering the incidence of home wifi routers, and the widespread use of houseplants, don't you think any detrimental effect would already be commonly observed and reported?

[Sasu]

The man who made this EKG video has spent the past 4 years and many hundreds, likely thousands of volunteer hours challenging the Arizona Utility and regulators to be accountable for the smart meters they have forced AZ customers to pay for. He understands in depth the problems with smart meters, including the harm they can cause. Not one naysayer on this thread knows anything even remotely close about the issue of smart meters like he does.

[podfish]

... He understands in depth the problems with smart meters, including the harm they can cause. Not one naysayer on this thread knows anything even remotely close about the issue of smart meters like he does.you have no way to know whether that's true or not. There are people who spend their lives hunting for sasquatch, too, and they know a lot more than I do about the hunt for sasquatch. I think that they actually know less about sasquatch himself, since they believe it exists and I don't. Their 'knowledge' is essentially junk science - which your amateur expert (oxymoron intended) is being accused of presenting.

[podfish]

Can anyone point to similar testing done by the smart meter industry? Why are citizens having to do this?...you've answered your own question. People are concerned for their safety. That can be a survival characteristic but it also opens the door for misinformation and fearmongering. It's demonstrably true that corporations frequently act in ways that are in their own interest at the expense of the general population. But there's no direct connection from that fact to the one in question.

Bad guys aren't always out to get you. There's a psychological term for that feeling. If anyone made a compelling case against smart meters you'd find more credible researchers agreeing. 'course if you distrust anyone who doesn't support the accusation, thinking of them as tools for the industry, you are indulging in emotional reaction rather than reason. If there's a specific case of a specific researcher faking results, that's one thing - but the blanket condemnation I see is not a demonstration critical thinking.

[arthunter]

you've answered your own question. ...Pretty words but I don't buy the idea that inquiring about industry testing to soothe concerns about this hotly debated subject suggests some kind of psychological dysfunction. Really?

[podfish]

Pretty words but I don't buy the idea that inquiring about industry testing to soothe concerns about this hotly debated subject suggests some kind of psychological dysfunction. Really?
lsorry, I don't mean to imply there was anything wrong with that question. It's the second part - why is it left to citizens to do this? and not even all of them fit my characterization. As Trump said, some of them, I assume, are good people. But I don't see much legitimate debate over the science. Instead, I see a lot of anti-EMF folks being dismissive of who seem to me to be professional scientists, because of their complicity with some imagined plot. Instead, many seem to prefer amateurish tests or anecdotal evidence that feed their fears. So as to your question, many of the 'citizens' believe this because it fits a paranoid world view. Of course there's real debate, too, but it's not considered particularly compelling in absence of well-founded, well-documented evidence that EMF is harmful.

[Sieglinde]

What are his scientific credentials?


The man who made this EKG video has spent the past 4 years ...

[arthunter]

So there's nothing on this thread but paranoid delusion? Does that diagnosis include the country of France?
https://ehtrust.org/france-new-national-law-bans-wifi-nursery-school/
And what about all of this? Just more junk science?
proceedings_(15)_sage_2.pdf
sorry, I don't mean to imply there was anything wrong with that question. ...r

[Sieglinde]

It would take more research than I am willing to do at this time but I would love to know what the French were basing this on.


So there's nothing on this thread but paranoid delusion? Does that diagnosis include the country of France?
https://ehtrust.org/france-new-national-law-bans-wifi-nursery-school/
...

[podfish]

So there's nothing on this thread but paranoid delusion? Does that diagnosis include the country of France?...
that's a willful misreading, and exemplifies the type of thinking that actually inhibits any efforts to set reasonable policy. Only a few things are all-or-nothing, and my post wasn't. I even quoted our president to help make that clear.

Anyone indulging in advocacy should keep in mind that mixing questionable information indiscriminately with more credible ones calls into question their judgment. Sasu's posts have often been to sources that are intriguing. Even the one from EHTrust is interesting, though claiming that a government's passing laws about an issue is obviously (or should be obviously) not any real evidence on its own. How 'bout marijuana as a Schedule A drug?? Its deadly nature is well established by the decades of laws prohibiting its use.

Despite that many articles on HuffPo seem interesting to me, I shy away from it the same way I wish people with conservative bents would shy away from Fox. You don't learn much from people you agree with - and it's too easy to see only the parts that reinforce your pre-existing opinions. In many of this type of issue, whether it's flouridation, smartmeters, or chemtrails, you see that the people raising the alarm almost never look for anything that refutes their point of view, while those making the opposite side of the argument at least make the pro-forma declaration that their views are subject to change given enough compelling evidence. In real science, the people producing a claim usually have already attacked it themselves to ensure that their ideas will hold up when exposed to a wider audience.

[arthunter]

What concerns me most is that we keep the discussion open regarding these issues which are clearly the subject of international debate. That is not accomplished by suggesting that those opinions that differ from our own are paranoid. This kind of discrediting is in wide use in our world and it is counter productive in my opinion.
that's a willful misreading, and exemplifies the type of thinking that actually inhibits any efforts to set reasonable policy. ...

[arthunter]

This site contains a great deal of information and might explain why France and other countries are concerned about this technology.
https://www.bioinitiative.org/

[podfish]

What concerns me most is that we keep the discussion open regarding these issues which are clearly the subject of international debate. That is not accomplished by suggesting that those opinions that differ from our own are paranoid. This kind of discrediting is in wide use in our world and it is counter productive in my opinion.to keep beating that dead horse: no-one on this thread has claimed that anyone who expresses concern about smartmeters is paranoid. I've claimed that some of the people providing 'evidence' of their harm seem to be demonstrating paranoid thinking. I keep referring to Sasu, because she clearly takes this seriously - more than most advocates of restricting smartmeters. That seems to be to be atypical of many posters on this subject and others that are related (on Wacco but even more on other sites).

But you shouldn't keep seeing everything as black & white, criticism of one faction as if it were applied to all. That's actually one of the points I try, however clumsily, to get across: the quality of the citations varies wildly; many seem to be uninterested in challenges to their point of view (which is different than finding evidence being presented as unconvincing), and as your post is showing, aren't interested in seeing what to me aren't particularly subtle distinctions being made. Not all advocates are paranoids, and not all skeptics are corporate-owned sheeple.

[arthunter]

I do understand Podfish but in my opinion all of the posters on this thread deserve respect. If you wish to challenge their posts then please do so by publishing scientific information which backs up your point of view. This is a collaborative community effort to come to conclusions about this technology.
to keep beating that dead horse: ...

[Milgram Experiment]

Hello list, my name is Paul Harding and the person responsible for the test.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-aNRQNRtaII have been monitoring health issues and man made EMF for the last 6 years. This started after a smart meter was placed on my bedroom wall right behind my head. Fortunately I was at home and put two and two together after the second night of waking up around 3am (smart grid data dump). I purchased thousands of dollars worth of equipment and with a little help from an Aerospace Engineer (my brother), started on my quest to fully understand what myself and so many others were experiencing. Literally it almost killed me.

Point 1.
The camera man was not quite there (very frustrating)

Point 2 We did this filming on Mother's Day for a deadline three days later. Coordinated a doctor, homeowner, and video guy last minute. Lots of mistakes!

Point 3 The heart did not react 100 percent of the time to the smart meter transmissions.

Point 4 We also used a GSR (galvanic skin response) to correlate stress. This responded for seconds every time even though the bursts of energy were much quicker.

Point 5 This isn't the first science ever published. It is the first time a smart meter was involved.

Point 6 This test was ran quite a few times before we scheduled everyone to show up on Mothers Day for a video shoot.

Point 7 I have no doubt this test is accurate as so many are experiencing heart palpitations after a smart meter installation.

Thanks for posting this! It's gonna be fun...

Rather than debunk the entire video in one go, I'll throw out the first volley.

Why is it that the trace of the EKG being recorded during the "event" looks nothing at all like the static image in the later narrative?

[Sasu]

I have been an intervenor on smart meters at the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) since 2010. I have written and filed 2 dozen + legal documents https://emfsafetynetwork.org/emf-safety-network-legal-work/ and have been financially compensated for my work, attorney and expert costs by the CPUC. I caught the head of PG&E's smart meter program falsifying his identity to get into our organizing list that I maintained for six years for EMF activists throughout California, the US, Canada, UK and Australia. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/science/earth/10meter.html I am committed to the issue of EMF harm because I have been injured by EMFs and I believe the science is strong enough to warrant community precautions.

The "junk science" and paranoid theory perpetrated here is another false truth, that is promoted by industry and government who have money to be made and addictive technology to sell. Here's a great recent example: The California Department of Public Health (CDPH) created a cell phone advisory in 2009. They revised it 27 times and never published it till Joel M. Moskowitz, Ph.D., Director School of Public Health at UC Berkeley sued CDPH and they released the advisory: https://bit.ly/CDPHsafer


...I keep referring to Sasu, because she clearly takes this seriously - more than most advocates of restricting smartmeters. ...

[Milgram Experiment]

Actually, I often see 33.3 kilo Hertz present, riding on the 60 Hertz waveform, when people are paranoid. All it takes is shorting it from the voltage field radiating from the wiring in the ceiling, walls, and sometimes floor. So yes I do meet lots of paranoid people at first.


...Not all advocates are paranoids, and not all skeptics are corporate-owned sheeple.

[barfly]

@spam1: YES!

This video wants you to believe that the noise source that is picked up by the little field strength meter is affecting the man's heart, which in turn is shown on the ECG.

TLDR (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TLDR): That is *not* what's happening, the noise source is clearly direct coupling to the ECG instrument. The presence of the smart meter appears to have no effect on his heart at all. This video is nothing more than yet another propaganda piece intended to elicit emotional response from non-technical people.

Long version:
The ECG is measuring extremely small electric potential changes across the surface of the body. These are in the range of 1-2mV. Voltages of this magnitude are actually pretty difficult to measure. The most common instrument for graphically showing voltage vs time is an oscilloscope. Most oscilloscopes are not capable (in a practical sense) of measuring signals this tiny. That's approaching the lowest levels I can see with my $12,000 Agilent 'scope, but that still requires careful technique to isolate the desired signal from noise sources.

What this explains is that ECG are *very* susceptible to EMI (electromagnetic interference). For reference, refer to: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/clc.20459/pdf

"Electrocardiograms (ECGs) are recorded in many health care settings and often represent the first-line of testing undertaken by ECG technicians, nurses, physicians, and personnel under training to establish a diagnosis. Although ECG recordings are frequently done, the quality of recording is essential for proper interpretation. Artifact due to EMI on ECG recordings may lead to interpretation mistakes, unnecessary medical treatment, and potentially dramatic medical errors."

It's difficult to provide a detailed analysis of errors in the demonstration (I can't use the word "experiment" in good conscience) because few details of testing method are provided. As noted in my prior post, the ECG data shown being collected does not even match that used later in the narrative.

The ECG plot shown being collected concurrent with the field strength meter reading clearly shows a noise pulse. The large negative going deflection is far outside the 1-2mV signals generated by the heart muscle.

What is the noise source? Again, lacking details of the demonstration, I can only guess. If the data collection shown in the video covered a longer period of time to show repetitive bursts of wifi transmission and related ECG instrument response, it would be more clear. It is quite possible that the one time event shown was while energizing the smart meter. Smart meters contain a small switching power supply, similar to the little wall warts that power home electronics. These power supplies have a bulk storage capacitor which when first energized cause a very brief but large current surge while it charges. This current surge will cause an EMI spike. Connecting the switch or plug which energizes the meter will also produce an arc which radiates EMI (think spark gap transmitter).

Anecdotally, it has happened so many times in our lab that anomalous readings are caused by someone inadvertently leaving a smartphone on a bench or in their pocket, that it has become quite funny. Yeah, engineers have a 'different' sense of humor. You might be more surprised to know that the noise source is not the phone transmitting, but more often radiating when the display is energized.

I hope this is clear. Any questions, feel free to ask!


...I would guess the most likely explanation is the EKG sensor or wires connecting it to the EKG recorder are very sensitive to electric fields and thus likely are picking up some change due the cycling smart meter...where is the control where they have a crash dummy on the bed, and repeat the experiment.

[barfly]

If you stand by your demonstration, then provide all detail of your test methods and collected data so it is available for public scrutiny.

Without further info, this demonstration has no credibility and gives the appearance of being concocted as nothing more than a parlor trick to further your cause.


Hello list, my name is Paul Harding and the person responsible for the test.

[barfly]

@Sasu: I'm sympathetic to your suffering and in no way intend my posts as a personal attack. I'm posting information that I have first hand, can provide knowledgeable analysis of, or otherwise find credible.

Veering off of that a tad... as a technical person, the primary references of sites such as emfsafetynetwork read like a cross between Breitbart and the National Enquirer.

(Disclaimer: I've never actually read Breitbart. I'm basing this on reputation which is why it's uninteresting.)


...Joel M. Moskowitz, Ph.D., Director School of Public Health at UC Berkeley...
Counterpoint: https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/02/28/uc-berkeley-psychologist-joel-moskowitz-cell-phone-wi-fi-truther-10928

[Milgram Experiment]

It's already in the making. Interesting how hearts will respond differently to the smart meter in the identical environment. I guess we ar different or the equipment has a mind of it's own.

The idea is nothing new as it started with a declassified paper from the Defense Intelligence Agency (https://www.magdahavas.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BIOLOGICAL_EFFECTS_OF_ELECTROMAGNETIC_RADIATION-RADIOWAVES_AND_MICROWAVES-EURASIAN_COMMUNIST_COUNTRIES.pdf)

Actually, I hope that naysayers don't get it and continue their exposure. The sad thing is that they will take a boat load of people with them to a slow torturous grave.


If you stand by your demonstration, then provide all detail of your test methods and collected data so it is available for public scrutiny....

[barfly]

I only looked at the first few pages, but notice the highlighting in this document creates a nice set of pull-quotes to support your position. Perhaps you should highlight in a different color every instance that says western scientists have not been able to replicate their results...

While I appreciate your well wishes for us 'naysayers' (your label, not mine!), you're a bit late on that. Many of us have had high level exposure for decades. I'm sorry to report that we're doing fine. Unless it's this very RF exposure that has compelled me to waste an hour of this glorious day responding to a few posts!

Further to your comment, are you aware that world wide smart meter deployment is expected to exceed ONE BILLION meters this year? I was never even aware of this controversy until I signed on to waccoobb.net last year. This ship has sailed and from my vantage point, the end of the world as we know it has not occurred.


The idea is nothing new as it started with a declassified paper from the Defense Intelligence Agency (https://www.magdahavas.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BIOLOGICAL_EFFECTS_OF_ELECTROMAGNETIC_RADIATION-RADIOWAVES_AND_MICROWAVES-EURASIAN_COMMUNIST_COUNTRIES.pdf)

[podfish]

... from my vantage point, the end of the world as we know it has not occurred.no, it hasn't, but from my vantage point it's getting closer! (I guess that's OT...)

[Milgram Experiment]

Ya, I don't bother much anymore responding to posts either. To busy helping those that want to be helped. Would have quit a long time ago if it wasn't real. I've made more friends since than ever before. Life changing stuff going on.
The CDC flu map does look different compared with the latter years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7t_Jsvf3fs

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/usmap.htm

[Milgram Experiment]

40190Attached is the Maricopa County death rate since 1995. The smart meter was in full swing about 2010/2011. Notice how the numbers don't stabilize. The health is horrible in a city that has some of the best weather in the country. Doctors are doing real well here. Everyone is pale and pasty looking and this strange in a place that gets lots of sun. Bald guys everywhere and don't tell me they shave their heads because being bald is fun.

[podfish]

Attached is the Maricopa County death rate since 1995. ...?? correlation isn't causation. And your correlation waves away about 16 years! How 'bout attributing it to increased traffic and diesel fumes, ticks, too much Taco Bell and McDonald's, extensive use of Roundup in the fields, deteriorating water quality from overuse of tainted groundwater, or most likely, demographics. Baldness seems to be a feature of a lot of boomers, if not in the 70's certainly in this century.

[barfly]

Now you're just being silly.

My first guess for an alternate explanation of the death rate hits pay dirt:

Are you aware that Maricopa County is the fastest growing county in the nation?

https://meredith.worldnow.com/story/34984757/census-bureau-reveals-the-fastest-growing-county-in-the-nation

Your graph shows the annual death rate from 1995 to 2016 increasing by 58%. In the same period, the population increased by about 61%.

If anything, the death rate per capita is going DOWN not up.

[Milgram Experiment]

Badness is especially noticeable in Ham Radio operators and RF engineers. Don't think I've ever met one with a full head of hair. Our cells are gated by voltage and frequencies. The IEEE has many in vitro studies and papers showing how frequencies are used to create nerve block using power in the milli amp range.

I visited a man that had lost all his hair on his head, face, and chest in just 5 months after a new antenna was installed on a cell tower very close to his work.

To some it continues to be a mystery....

?? correlation isn't causation. ...

[barfly]

I'm going to assume you mean "baldness" and not "badness". ha ha!

You really put your foot in it this time.

40191I'm pleased to be your first ham with all his hair! I was first licensed a wee lad in 1972. My main area of interest is VHF weak signal and moonbounce communication. The moon is very far away. ERP (effective radiated power) of my moonbounce array is 75kW. Read that carefully, I said 75,000 watts.

I know a lot of hams. I see them all the time. I have lots of ham friends. I go to big ham radio events.

With great authority I can say that your assertion that most ham radio operators are bald is both absurd and completely false.

The attached picture is me. Please note I have hair. The older gentleman standing behind me, also a ham radio operator. Once again, hair. Sheesh.

With all due respect, isn't it time you crawl back under your rock?

Badness is especially noticeable in Ham Radio operators and RF engineers. Don't think I've ever met one with a full head of hair.

[Milgram Experiment]

Your handle has been at this for quite a while. Man you spend a lot of time on the computer. Ever park a WiFi router in alarm clock position right next to your bed? Why don't you try it for a couple of months and then tell us how wonderful the world is.

I had a ton of RF equipment from a dead RF engineer ham radio operator. Died from cancer. Made a killing on his stuff like Western Electric 300A's Heathkit's tubes etc. He was a lonely guy. I found the hams on ebay were the worst ever to deal with. Won't ever touch the stuff again. Just my experience.

I love what I do. Making lives better every day. Leukemia gone in two weeks, colon cancer gone in 6 months, diabetics blood sugar drops to normal levels after the first night.

[podfish]

I love what I do. Making lives better every day. Leukemia gone in two weeks, colon cancer gone in 6 months, diabetics blood sugar drops to normal levels after the first night.really. Not to be overly skeptical, but I could have sworn that I heard the nation has unprecedented numbers of diabetics. And people still die from cancer. You certainly should publicize your techniques.

Though posts about scientific issues and conspiracy theories often get me to rise to the bait, I rarely comment on those offering holistic health treatments and the like. But this time, I will, because statements like that discredit your judgment. When you're claiming to be the expert who's running these experiments, you've revealed the context you use to evaluate health-related results.

[Milgram Experiment]

I could care less what anyone thinks. All I do is take away frequencies that are proven to be biologically active found in peer reviewed and published papers from the IEEE. Just putting pieces of the puzzle together. It's actually quite boring after a hundred times. I'm just standing on the shoulders of Sam Milham MD MPH, Dave Stetzer, and Dr Magda Havas...they are the true heroes!

Diabetes and leukemia are dirty electricity diseases. I look at frequencies on a scope and get rid of them....I'm just a "copy cat".

I watch hearts respond to EKG's and fright or flight responses with a GSR monitor. Anyone can do this, just need to apply some time, money, and effort. I have spent the last 6 years day and night on the subject at hand. This isn't a guessing game reading other people's work. If I found it to be a scam, like skeptics think, I would have quit along time ago. No way would I have invested a dime into something that was not true. Then put my name all over it?


...statementsi like that discredit your judgment....

[barfly]

Your handle has been at this for quite a while. Man you spend a lot of time on the computer.
That's how you characterize my whopping lifetime achievement of 12 posts? Seems like distorting information is a compulsive activity of yours. Or are my posts inconvenient?


Ever park a WiFi router in alarm clock position right next to your bed? Why don't you try it for a couple of months and then tell us how wonderful the world is.
I already stated that I have a high power wifi access point in my bedroom running 24/7. It's been there for years. Earlier this year I doubled the output power and moved it to a window to provide connectivity in the treehouse. Between my head and the clock (a radio controlled "atomic" clock!) is an iPhone & iPad. That should be adequate. Surely you don't expect me to rearrange the furniture to appease you?!

[Milgram Experiment]

Written like the long time troll you have been over the years. Good job!


That's how you characterize my whopping lifetime achievement of 12 posts? Seems like distorting information is a compulsive activity of yours. Or are my posts inconvenient?...

[barfly]

...All I do is take away frequencies that are proven to be biologically active...

You're one of the snake oil salesmen taking advantage of people selling them faux test instruments and "cleaning" their electricity??

[Sieglinde]

Yeah, I am certainly not corporate owned. I am just sick and tired of faux science, whether it is Creationists, antivaxxers, EMF phobics, quack medicine (which has plenty of followers in the West County), climate change deniers etc.

... Not all advocates are paranoids, and not all skeptics are corporate-owned sheeple.

[Sieglinde]

Have you tracked how often and how powerful the signal is? I suspect that the Smart Meter is not transmitting all the time.


... This started after a smart meter was placed on my bedroom wall right behind my head. ....

[Sieglinde]

My war against faux science is just that and includes all kinds of junk science including quack medical theories and cures, antivaxxers, Creationists (I am not talking about faith based statements but those who try to prove it with faux science) and all kinds of crap I hear about on a daily basis. I have never worked for a corporation.


...The "junk science" and paranoid theory perpetrated here is another false truth, that is promoted by industry and government ...

[Sieglinde]

There are a number of fine books on how to design experiments. Doing one in an uncontrolled environment is probably first on the list of don'ts. There needs to be more than one subject that complains of EMF problems and there needs to be a placebo affect (subject told that there is a Smartmeter next to his head and it is actually deactivated) You will need the specs of a Smartmeter to simulate what they actually do. This was just a story not a real experiment. You would need persons with medical and engineering expertise. I would recommend that it not be done in a home which has wiring, outside EMF etc. I suspect my wifi router is giving wifi out to my neighbors. Your environment would have to be better controlled. Bad experiment design which is actually designed to get the results that you want is very BAD SCIENCE.


This video wants you to believe that the noise source that is picked up by the little field strength meter is affecting the man's heart, which in turn is shown on the ECG....

[Sieglinde]

The whole thing was such a badly designed experiment that it would not be acceptable in an elementary grade level science fair.


If you stand by your demonstration, then provide all detail of your test methods and collected data so it is available for public scrutiny.

Without further info, this demonstration has no credibility and gives the appearance of being concocted as nothing more than a parlor trick to further your cause.

[Sieglinde]

This report shows why there is a wire cage in your microwave oven. The EMF from Smartmeters is not microwave energy.


...The idea is nothing new as it started with a declassified paper from the Defense Intelligence Agency (https://www.magdahavas.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BIOLOGICAL_EFFECTS_OF_ELECTROMAGNETIC_RADIATION-RADIOWAVES_AND_MICROWAVES-EURASIAN_COMMUNIST_COUNTRIES.pdf)
...

[Sieglinde]

I remember talking to a person who had been a technician around this sort of equipment. He said that he could feel it well enough to actually use his sensations in helping tune equipment. I liked his theory. Yes, some people can sense it but that does not necessarily affect their health. They just think it is. Prove the health affects not the psychosomatic affects. And why bug the rest of us that this does not bother. Pay your $75 and leave us alone.

[Sieglinde]

Science is based on evidence not stories. Have you talked to a public health expert from that county?


Attached is the Maricopa County death rate since 1995. The smart meter was in full swing about 2010/2011. Notice how the numbers don't stabilize. The health is horrible in a city that has some of the best weather in the country. Doctors are doing real well here. Everyone is pale and pasty looking and this strange in a place that gets lots of sun. Bald guys everywhere and don't tell me they shave their heads because being bald is fun.

[Sieglinde]

I have a powerful router in my bedroom right now. No difference before or after installation.

[Sieglinde]

LOL!!! Diabetes is caused by eating too much sugar. Got it? Quack Quack Quack

...Diabetes and leukemia are dirty electricity diseases. ...

[Sieglinde]

If you accept this crap as you would someone who believes in a religion that you consider stupid, you come close to understanding the fake science people. It is like a stupid religion that you cannot argue about because it is faith based.


That's how you characterize my whopping lifetime achievement of 12 posts? Seems like distorting information is a compulsive activity of yours. Or are my posts inconvenient?


I already stated that I have a high power wifi access point in my bedroom running 24/7. It's been there for years. Earlier this year I doubled the output power and moved it to a window to provide connectivity in the treehouse. Between my head and the clock (a radio controlled "atomic" clock!) is an iPhone & iPad. That should be adequate. Surely you don't expect me to rearrange the furniture to appease you?!

[Sieglinde]

I just love your name calling. It really helps invalidate your status as a person of reason. Count me in as green with pointed ears also. I will troll for science until I die.


Written like the long time troll you have been over the years. Good job!

[Trail_Goddess]

Is it Goddards law that one accuses others of what they themselves are doing?
<br><br>
Written like the long time troll you have been over the years. Good job!


And when you resort to calling others trolls and shills it means you have no evidence to support your belief.

[arthunter]

I find it interesting that those screaming about junk science didn't even look at this.
https://www.bioinitiative.org/media/spread-the-word/ Here, I'll make it easy for you, but of course, if you'd rather turn the thread into a thread of name calling instead of public safety,..

The Bioinitiative Report

WHAT IS IT: A report by 29 independent scientists and health experts from around the world* about possible risks from wireless technologies and electromagnetic fields. It updates the BioInitiative 2007 Report.

WHAT IT COVERS: The science, public health, public policy and global response to the growing health issue of chronic exposure to electromagnetic fields and radiofrequency radiation in the daily life of billions of people around the world. Covers brain tumor risks from cell phones, damage to DNA and genes, effects on memory, learning, behavior, attention; sleep disruption and cancer and neurological diseases like Alzheimer’s disease. Effects on sperm and miscarriage (fertility and reproduction), effects of wireless on the brain development of the fetus and infant, and effects of wireless classrooms on children and adolescents is addressed. Mechanisms for biological action and public health responses in other countries are discussed. Therapeutic use of very low intensity EMF and RFR are addressed.

WHAT IS NEW: This update covers about 1800 new studies reporting bioeffects and adverse health effects of electromagnetic fields (powerlines, electrical wiring, appliances and hand-held devices) – and wireless technologies (cell and cordless phones, cell towers, WI-FI, wireless laptops, wireless routers, baby monitors, surveillance systems, wireless utility meters (‘smart meters’), etc.

*The BioInitiative 2012 Report has been prepared by 29 authors from ten countries*, ten holding medical degrees (MDs), 21 PhDs, and three MsC, MA or MPHs. Among the authors are three former presidents of the Bioelectromagnetics Society, and five full members of BEMS. One distinguished author is the Chair of the Russian National Committee on Non-Ionizing Radiation. Another is a Senior Advisor to the European Environmental Agency. Full titles and affiliations of authors is in Section 25 – List of Participants

Each year, about 100,000 people visit the site. In the five years since it’s publication, the BioInitiative website has been accessed over 10.5 million times, or four times every minute. Every five minutes on the average, a person somewhere in the world has logged on. More than 5.2 million files and 1 million pages of information has been downloaded. That is equivalent to more than 93,000 full copies of the 650+ page report (288.5 million kbytes).

[Sieglinde]

I can find you sites with "scientific" proof by real scientists that the earth was created in seven days.


I find it interesting that those screaming about junk science didn't even look at this.
https://www.bioinitiative.org/media/spread-the-word/ ...

[arthunter]

I'd like to see that please.
I can find you sites with "scientific" proof by real scientists that the earth was created in seven days.

[Trail_Goddess]

To the contrary, many of us are well aware of the bioinitiavive report (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/picking-cherries-in-science-the-bio-initiative-report/) from evidence based sources.

Personally I'm willing to believe any damn thing, no matter how outlandish it is. But the more it goes against the body of well supported evidence based research the more thorough and robust the evidence needs to be. At this point I see no good reason the body of evidence on the safety of wireless is wrong.

[Trail_Goddess]

Here's some of them
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lists_of_creationist_scientists

<br><br>


I'd like to see that please.

[arthunter]

So what are we learning from this thread? That we can't trust scientists anywhere about anything? And, of course, multi billion dollar industries would never lie to us... right. The doctors selling cigarettes in the 50s comes to mind.

I trust personal experience. I represent a group of thousands of individuals who claim that they are purposely hit with electromagnetic frequencies for the purpose of brain research. Before you scoff at this do some research on Neuroscience. It's really quite amazing. The push to stop this non consensual experimentation is supported by ex NSA officials like William Binney and Karen Stewart, ex military members like David Voights and ex military microwave weapons experts like Barrie Trower. You'll find lots of info on these people by searching. This is quite serious.

The reason that I mention this in this thread is because many of these human lab rats are developing cancer, heart problems, joint problems, immunity problems, and blood abnormalities. This is being documented for a class action lawsuit. You should think about what you're defending here.

[Trail_Goddess]

Hopefully we are learning to use evidence when evaluating sources.
Finding Credible Sources (https://sites.google.com/site/evaluatingsourcecredibility/)
So what are we learning from this thread? That we can't trust scientists anywhere about anything? ...

[podfish]

I could care less what anyone thinks. .... If I found it to be a scam, like skeptics think, I would have quit along time ago. see, that's the difference between a scientific and a faith-based approach. Someone interested in understanding a subject should be very interested in what other people think. Maybe most opinions you get are junk, but there may well be some ideas you haven't considered. Again, to use politics as an example, I'm extremely interested in how Trump supporters, especially the non-deplorables, explain their position.

You also show a complete misunderstanding of the word 'skeptic'. It doesn't mean someone who has an opposing position to yours. It's someone who hasn't been convinced yet. Often skeptics are the best source of insight into your own ideas because they either point out things you may be inadvertently blind to, or make you strengthen your own case.

If critiques of your ideas can't make you re-evaluate them, you're faith-based or using lazy logic. It's not all that hard to recognize and dismiss uninformed criticism.

[podfish]

I'd like to see that please.
google's awesome. I just put in:
"scientist says the earth was created in seven days"
and the fourth one down led me to Dr. Humphreys. This led me to his papers:

https://answersingenesis.org/geology/plate-tectonics/catastrophic-plate-tectonics-global-flood-model-of-earth-history/

and

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/age-of-the-universe/evidence-for-a-young-world/



History is too short. According to evolutionists, Stone Age Homo sapiens existed for 190,000 years before beginning to make written records about 4,000 to 5,000 years ago. Prehistoric man built megalithic monuments, made beautiful cave paintings, and kept records of lunar phases.37 (https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/age-of-the-universe/evidence-for-a-young-world/#fn_37) Why would he wait two thousand centuries before using the same skills to record history? The Biblical time scale is much more likely.



admittedly, that's not exactly answering you question about 7 day creation. But I'd be quite surprised if he and his collaborators missed that considering the breadth of their papers.

[arthunter]

Who's evidence? It was found that Dr. Pan?, the guy advocating for mandatory vaccinations had ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I think personally I trust grassroots citizens committees more than the alternative.
Hopefully we are learning to use evidence when evaluating sources.

[Sieglinde]

I went to one of their presentations when I was a Fundamentalist Christian. I even had problems with some of it then. https://www.icr.org


I'd like to see that please.

[Trail_Goddess]

I'll take facts over alternative facts anytime. How do we know the difference? Science! How do we change scientific evidence? Better science! We can't even begin to solve actual problems if we can't stick to facts. Diverting to conspiracy theories and pseudoscience is counterproductive to understanding and problem solving.

Who's evidence? It was found that Dr. Pan?, the guy advocating for mandatory vaccinations had ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I think personally I trust grassroots citizens committees more than the alternative.

[Sieglinde]

There is an entire organization that believes this. https://www.icr.org


google's awesome. I just put in:
"scientist says the earth was created in seven days"
...

[Sieglinde]

That is certainly in line with the traditional American anti-intellectuallism. Welcome to Trump World, you are at home there.


Who's evidence? It was found that Dr. Pan?, the guy advocating for mandatory vaccinations had ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I think personally I trust grassroots citizens committees more than the alternative.

[Shandi]

There's an extensive amount of information on this site, and most of us won't take the time to read through all of it.

The health issues for children is a concern to me, since so many children are addicted to video games, along with many parents of babies glued to their phones with babies in their arms. Seems like people can't wait to get their kids hooked on them with their own personal phones as baby sitters, starting as early as 1 or 2 yrs. old. And it works!

I often see women and teens with a phone tucked into their bra or swimsuit top, and I've wondered if this might be a health concern. I've read reports of kids getting burns from falling asleep with a phone next to their skin.

Do men and young boys carry their phones in a swim suit or shorts pocket next to their genitals, with no fear of any consequences?

We may have to wait many years for conclusive evidence of harmful damage to the body, or be pro-actively "paranoid" by not risking it.

It took awhile for cigarettes to be linked to lung cancer, but even though it has been, people are still smoking. Is this paranoid delusion in the opposite direction?


So there's nothing on this thread but paranoid delusion? Does that diagnosis include the country of France?
https://ehtrust.org/france-new-national-law-bans-wifi-nursery-school/

[Shandi]

This site is religious based, so "scientific" conclusions might be biased.



There is an entire organization that believes this. https://www.icr.org

[arthunter]

It is grassroots organizations which are publishing scientific studies. Would government research do? https://www.defendershield.com/adverse-bioeffects-emf-radiation-shown-government-research-going-back-decades/

[Sasu]

But when will you read the science?
www.emfscientist.org (https://www.emfscientist.org)
www.bioinitiative.org (https://www.bioinitiative.org)


I will troll for science until I die.

[podfish]

But when will you read the science?
www.emfscientist.org (https://www.emfscientist.org)
www.bioinitiative.org (https://www.bioinitiative.org)those are great. But really the traffic on this thread hasn't arisen primarily from challenges to the premise, though many of us are still unconvinced. But the discussion is shaped by the postings with reliance on unsubstantiated claims. Maybe it's a case of "squirrel!!", but when transparently bogus information is touted as evidence for a position, it obviously draws several of us into doing a lot of typing.

I've cited you before as someone who has spent a lot of time on this and who often provides interesting links. I appreciate that, even though I haven't been convinced that smartmeters are a significant threat. But I do find them interesting and they help keep me open-minded abut the issue. And really, the only reason it matters whether I'm convinced is there are political ramifications. Otherwise, who cares what I think? (except as entertainment value, as the disclaimer goes).

[Sasu]

Kids addicted to devices on 20/20 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-young-kids-obsessed-electronic-devices-intervention/story?id=47440038)


The health issues for children is a concern to me, since so many children are addicted to video games, along with many parents of babies glued to their phones with babies in their arms.

[podfish]

....of course, if you'd rather turn the thread into a thread of name calling instead of public safety,..another topic that's hard to resist. This comes up once in a while when someone's point of view is being disparaged. Maybe I'm blind to it, or there are too many tl;dr posts on this thread - but, can you show me any instances of "name calling" ??

[arthunter]

Cell phone addiction on 60 minutes. Funny, can't find the video anywhere. https://tinyurl.com/m3ydkfl

[arthunter]

I was referring to the shill accusations. <br>
another topic that's hard to resist. This comes up once in a while when someone's point of view is being disparaged. Maybe I'm blind to it, or there are too many tl;dr posts on this thread - but, can you show me any instances of "name calling" ??

[arthunter]

Once again, government research .
Adverse Bioeffects of EMF Radiation Shown in Government Research Going Back Decades (https://www.defendershield.com/adverse-bioeffects-emf-radiation-shown-government-research-going-back-decades/)

[Jude Iam]

"Better science" needed indeed:

https://www.ucsusa.org/center-science-and-democracy/promoting-scientific-integrity/how-corporations-corrupt-science.html#.WSMjOFKZMcg

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/05/the_corruption_of_science.html

https://www.statnews.com/2017/03/22/science-journal-publishers-sting/

"Science" costs money, lots, which comes from ...where? And comes with strings.
The difference between scientists and 'citizen scientists' is somewhat like the relationship between 'politicians' and activists: one does it for money, the other (at their own cost!) for morality.
Very challenging times. Jude


I'll take facts over alternative facts anytime. How do we know the difference? Science! How do we change scientific evidence? Better science! ...

[Sasu]

Is this it?
From 60 minutes Hooked on your phone? (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hooked-on-phones/) Texts and notifications, anxiety and phantom vibrations — Anderson Cooper talks about the impact smartphones have on teens and adults, particularly himself
<header> </header>
Cell phone addiction on 60 minutes. Funny, can't find the video anywhere. https://tinyurl.com/m3ydkfl

[podfish]

"Science" costs money, lots, which comes from ...where? And comes with strings.
The difference between scientists and 'citizen scientists' is somewhat like the relationship between 'politicians' and activists: one does it for money, the other (at their own cost!) for morality.
Very challenging times. Judehell if I know why, it's not all that apropos, but the saying about the different ways pigs and chickens feel about a traditional breakfast comes to mind: the chicken's involved, but the pig's committed.

Maybe surprisingly I think the role of the activist better matches the chicken. There are typically little or no consequences for being wrong at the top of your lungs, and the "at (their) own cost" is literally their own.

Politicians actually have to accept the consequences of what they do, and the costs of their actions/mistakes/misdeeds are borne by a lot of people. I guess I'm saying they're pigs. So if your point of view is that all the bums are only in it for themselves, I guess all you can do is trust amateurs. The pros who actually implement policy have a lot of pressures - from business interests who contribute to their campaigns, from other politicians trying to make deals, from activists, some from organized crime. They have to reconcile those with their own personal ethical positions. And they have to consider the art of the possible - they're NOT activists, they actually are the ones responsible for implementing change.

Most things can't be changed without cooperation from others with conflicting interests. So you get all kinds of results, depending on how they balance all of these. You brought in politicians, but here we're talking mainstream scientists. They have many of the same forces, though getting grants substitutes for getting contributions. Purity is swell, but realistically the challenge is to be able to compromise without violating your ethics.

[podfish]

I just love your name calling. It really helps invalidate your status as a person of reason. Count me in as green with pointed ears also. I will troll for science until I die.oh yeah, when I posted earlier about "who's name calling?" I was thinking more of those on the skeptical side... I forgot him!!

and to be fair, he never called anyone a shill. He did call someone a troll, but only in one post out of the snowstorm we've had since this thread revived from the dead.

[arthunter]

Yes. That's it. The actual segment was called "brain hacking". I did find a copy of the story on CBS but you had to sign up to watch it. Don't have time to search right now but I did find a preview https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/preview-brain-hacking/ and a good explanation https://www.ineffableisland.com/2017/04/has-your-brain-been-hacked-by.html?m=1

Is this it?
From 60 minutes Hooked on your phone? (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hooked-on-phones/) ...

[Sieglinde]

Exactly, just as the antivaxxer EMF sensitive, quack medicine etc. sites are


This site is religious based, so "scientific" conclusions might be biased.

[Sieglinde]

Most name calling as come from the anti smart meter side accusing those who think they are OK or at least not a problem are accused of working for corporate interests.


another topic that's hard to resist. This comes up once in a while when someone's point of view is being disparaged. Maybe I'm blind to it, or there are too many tl;dr posts on this thread - but, can you show me any instances of "name calling" ??