A question for the single women out there [Archive]

Looksgood

09-09-2006, 11:48 AM

Dear Waccowomen

I am hoping that in your collective wisdom you will be able to help me with a problem I have been having recently. I am a man who after many years of marriage now finds myself single (aside: if you smoke cigarettes, stop now! Lung cancer is not a pretty way to exit this world.) Being a person who enjoys female company I have been pursuing activities likely to bring me into the company of women, and I have not found it difficult to get into conversation, flirt and generally enjoy my direct initial interactions with a number of members of this delightful demographic. But here is my problem. If I have enjoyed the initial intereaction, I will usually say something on the order of "Well, I have really enjoyed talking to you; if I asked you to have dinner one night [or substitute other innocent "date" type suggestion] would you like to do that?" and often receive a positive, sometimes an enthusiastically positive reply, along with a phone number. However all too often (at least three times in the past month) I will call after a couple of days and suggest getting together, but not receive the courtesy of a call back.

Now I am aware that some people find it difficult to say "no" in the moment, and will give the impression of willingness in order to avoid this uncomfortable duty, but surely you owe someone a response when they ask you out? I am left hanging, and wondering if I should call again in case my message was missed for some reason, and if so how many times and how soon before giving up? I do not want to give the impression of being a stalker! Should I just assume that no response means "no"? What is the general rule here, and are there steps I can take to improve my response percentage? Is there some way I can phrase my question so as to get a more honest answer in the first place?

Could the sisterhood maybe put out a general message to their half of the community that this kind of thing is not acceptable? It is hard enough these days, when we have thrown away all the social rules and signals that used to indicate interest or its lack, and not provided a new set of reliable indicators, to find common ground with members of one's chosen gender of interest without the discouragement of mixed signals.

Please do not take this as a flame or rant; I am genuinely puzzled and would very much like to resolve this problem. I suspect that I am not the only man who has experienced this. I also realize that there are almost certainly men out there who manifest similar behavior or worse, and I don't want to get into a "...and so are you" kind of battle; I am looking for solutions rather than arguments.

Comments, anyone?

Muel

09-09-2006, 12:22 PM

Dear Waccowomen

I am hoping that in your collective wisdom you will be able to help me with a problem I have been having recently.
{snip}

Comments, anyone?
What first comes to mind is whether in the interaction and subsequent phone call you identified yourself sufficiently so that the lady in question really connects who you are with the interaction. Have you tried making the arrangements at the time of the interaction? Good luck Muel

Joan Price

09-10-2006, 10:43 PM

Very interesting question, Looksgood! Although I'm no longer single, I spent quite a few of my adult decades single, so I'd like to respond. I wonder if you'd have different results if you phoned the next day, instead of waiting a few days. If she was excited about meeting you, her enthusiasm might dampen if you waited.

I'd love to come up with some easy answer to your question, such as, maybe you gave your phone number too fast on the phone (so many people do!) and she didn't get all the digits, or you called from a cell phone and the message wasn't clear....

Your approach sounds fine, and maybe you'd like this spin on it: Once I met a man who, after several minutes of pleasant conversation, asked me, "Is there any reason I shouldn't ask you out?" I loved that approach! If I wasn't really interested, I could say, "Yes," with or without an explanation. By saying "No, no reason at all," he knew I would accept.

Keep talking about this with us!

Joan Price
https://www.joanprice.com/ (https://www.joanprice.com/)
Author of Better Than I Ever Expected: Straight Talk about Sex after Sixty

Join us -- we're talking about sex and aging at https://www.betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/ (https://www.betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/)

HeyKim

09-11-2006, 10:32 AM

Joan wrote "I wonder if you'd have different results if you phoned the next day, instead of waiting a few days. If she was excited about meeting you, her enthusiasm might dampen if you waited."

Thank you Joan, you make a very good point here. Enthusiasm and genuine interested are very attractive. Being a busy single woman, I am not interested in spending time with someone who is kinda sorta interested in me. If a man waits a few days to call me, obviously I don't rock his world so why should I bother? Though I would return his call my reception to any possible proposals for mutual activity may be dampened - unless he has some great (true) story to explain his delay that either has me rolling in laughter or deeply touched by his genuine compassion and commitment (ie. sick friend).

On the other hand, a prompt phone call the next day to express one's genuine joy at the prospect of spending time with this new amazing and wonderful person that just appeared in your life. I want to spend time with someone who thinks I am fabulous (with perspective of course - someone can get hurt when I fall off the pedastals some people wish to put me on - usually it is not me.).

So if you meet a woman who rocks your world - call her as soon as possible. The same night if possible and let her know she has made an impression. If she does not respond, then obviously you did not rock her world and it begs the question - why would you want to spend time with someone who thought of you as anything less then amazing??????

In Joy and Wonder at the amazing way Life shows up, Kim

mediatorguy

09-11-2006, 11:19 AM

Kim wrote: So if you meet a woman who rocks your world - call her as soon as possible.

Two things come up for me. The lighter one is that one of the myths floating around is that one shouldn't seem too interested too soon. I remember in my youth ('60's, '70's) that one to two days was an acceptable delay for follow up.

More serious is to know early signs of what could be an abusive relationship. One of the symptoms is "too much, too soon". If the dialogue is about "You're the best thing that has ever happened to me", "this is so magical", "such an incredible energy, we should (move in, get married, etc.)" - that is a habitual characteristic of an abusive personality. The charm, the glamour, etc., continues until the victim is inextricably linked (marriage, moving in together, pregnancy, financial dependence, etc.) While there were probably other warning signs, they're usually overlooked during that magical period of early romance. The abuse will surface after the relationship becomes permanent.

For more info, get Patricia Evans' book, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship".

Matt

Joan Price

09-11-2006, 11:39 AM

... one shouldn't seem too interested too soon. I remember in my youth ('60's, '70's) that one to two days was an acceptable delay for follow up.

Matt, that's playing games. Let's get beyond games and just be straightforward with each other.

As far as "too much, too soon" being "early signs of what could be an abusive relationship," romance itself is consuming and urgent. Let's not throw out the potential for the wonderful, giddy high of attraction. Sure, we should look out for signs of a abusive relationship, but calling someone right after meeting her isn't one. Wanting to move in and/or marry after the 2nd date, well, sure, that's a problem. And abuse usually surfaces well before the relationship becomes "permanent" -- though it's often ignored or denied.

Interesting discussion we've got going here!

Joan Price
https://www.joanprice.com/ (https://www.joanprice.com/)
Author of Better Than I Ever Expected: Straight Talk about Sex after Sixty

Join us -- we're talking about sex and aging at https://www.betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/ (https://www.betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/)

pexpert6

09-12-2006, 07:05 AM

Kim wrote: So if you meet a woman who rocks your world - call her as soon as possible.Good point, Matt. Men and women keep applying RULES to the process of connecting with someone else that actually keep them from connecting with others.

Ladies, placing expectations and judgements on men based on when they call is just as much a game as men waiting to call. Are you so insecure about yourself that you NEED the validation of a man so powerless in the face of your charms that he calls immediately? (Oh, wait, won't you conclude he's a wimp and have no respect for him if he continues to behave this way?)

Gee, men, why not call a woman when you're truly inspired by your Divine Guidance? Perhaps when you've cleared your head and calender to devote quality attention to her? After all, you DID get her number because you were truly compelled to connect with her, didn't you?

Women, why not allow The Universe to bring you a surprise, instead of demanding It and others behave as you want them to? Why not actually take time to get to know a man, his intentions, your compatibility, instead of applying so many judgements to him instantly?

Oh, I forget. This is an "enlightened community." Y'all do all that already. That's why you have all already attracted the perfect partner for yourself in your life, right? Everyone spent time looking in the mirror, so many years ago, recognized how YOU create your life and all that comes into it, and did the internal work to manifest ALL your dreams coming true...

I think I created WACCO for entertainment! It certainly is that.
pexpert6

Sabrina

10-05-2006, 09:57 AM

I wonder if it also has to do with the fact that you are not single.... some people love the challange of trying to attract a married man or woman (sick as it may be). I don't mean people into open relationships and such where all parties are open and aware and ok with it. I mean, some people feel the challange to go for a person already in a relationship, like a competitive game; and, because the person is "taken" already, the challange feels safe because the fact that they are already in a relationship leaves an " easy out" from the intimacy that scares so many when dealing with an actual single available person.

This is funny because I experience the opposite problem, most women
that I meet, are very aggressive in pursuing a relationship. If I choose to
give my number out, chances are my phone wont stop ringing.
Of course, im not single and another thing i'd like to note, the less that you
show you care for a potential mate, the more she wants you, or at least thinks she wants you.
With that being said, tell them to call you and then when they do,
dont call them back for a while. Works like a charm.

miz editor

10-05-2006, 11:08 AM

Why don't you circumvent the problem altogether, and just offer a piece of paper with your phone # on it? Nobody likes to be put on the spot, esp. around a charged subject (ie, "your desirability"); some of us are tired of lots of male approaches coming at us all the time, in combination with the whole conditioned thing about the imperative to protect the male ego, and somehow getting that all balanced out just right... and there you are, on the spot, having one second to do it in.... and would love to be more easy about the whole thing. What do you think about what i've said?

Dear Waccowomen

I am hoping that in your collective wisdom you will be able to help me with a problem I have been having recently. I am a man who after many years of marriage now finds myself single (aside: if you smoke cigarettes, stop now! Lung cancer is not a pretty way to exit this world.) Being a person who enjoys female company I have been pursuing activities likely to bring me into the company of women, and I have not found it difficult to get into conversation, flirt and generally enjoy my direct initial interactions with a number of members of this delightful demographic. But here is my problem. If I have enjoyed the initial intereaction, I will usually say something on the order of "Well, I have really enjoyed talking to you; if I asked you to have dinner one night [or substitute other innocent "date" type suggestion] would you like to do that?" and often receive a positive, sometimes an enthusiastically positive reply, along with a phone number. However all too often (at least three times in the past month) I will call after a couple of days and suggest getting together, but not receive the courtesy of a call back.

Now I am aware that some people find it difficult to say "no" in the moment, and will give the impression of willingness in order to avoid this uncomfortable duty, but surely you owe someone a response when they ask you out? I am left hanging, and wondering if I should call again in case my message was missed for some reason, and if so how many times and how soon before giving up? I do not want to give the impression of being a stalker! Should I just assume that no response means "no"? What is the general rule here, and are there steps I can take to improve my response percentage? Is there some way I can phrase my question so as to get a more honest answer in the first place?

Could the sisterhood maybe put out a general message to their half of the community that this kind of thing is not acceptable? It is hard enough these days, when we have thrown away all the social rules and signals that used to indicate interest or its lack, and not provided a new set of reliable indicators, to find common ground with members of one's chosen gender of interest without the discouragement of mixed signals.

Please do not take this as a flame or rant; I am genuinely puzzled and would very much like to resolve this problem. I suspect that I am not the only man who has experienced this. I also realize that there are almost certainly men out there who manifest similar behavior or worse, and I don't want to get into a "...and so are you" kind of battle; I am looking for solutions rather than arguments.

Comments, anyone?

Sabrina

10-05-2006, 02:02 PM

You may have a point. I think my husband does the same thing, doesn't let on that he's not single right away and he gets the calls like crazy anyway. Maybe it's an alufe (spelling?) manner. Maybe you have a more carefree less charged attitude because you're not single. You're not looking or trying to "get together" or something, so maybe that's less threatening...(?) on a subconscious level.

Yes, the fact that i am not single can be a factor. However
its not something I throw out there, as soon as i meet someone.
So as far as [she] knows, I am fair game.
Any disinterest displayed by me, usually results in them wanting me more.
No big deal.
So, again, to help out this poor fella; treat um ruff, get the muff!

Lorrie

10-05-2006, 02:45 PM

Where are these married mens' wedding rings?:crazysmile:
give us singles a clue, so as not to make fools of our selves...
~Lorrie

You may have a point. I think my husband does the same thing, doesn't let on that he's not single right away and he gets the calls like crazy anyway. Maybe it's an alufe (spelling?) manner. Maybe you have a more carefree less charged attitude because you're not single. You're not looking or trying to "get together" or something, so maybe that's less threatening...(?) on a subconscious level.

Sabrina

10-05-2006, 04:27 PM

I know they should have wedding rings I suppose, but it's a new thing I think sometimes not to have one. (or maybe the guys hand is deeeep in his pocket!:lol2:) I don't know what everyone elses excuse is, but my hubby doesn't have one because it culturally didn't exist where he came from... (another country that's not European). And in my family, my parents were rebellious aged hippies that didn't believe in them either really. My Dad couldn't stand the idea, and my Mom had one that she couldn't stand wearing because it irritated her finger. Therefore ,neither do I wear one (nor was I given one... ). Sometimes when I have some guy really trying hard to pick me up and I have to say "Im married" they always say, "where's your wedding ring?" and I always have to make this same long explanation. Also, when I was younger I wore all kinds of rings on the wedding finger and other fingers as well, but never thought about it....In Hawaii they used to put a flower behind one ear if you were taken and the other if you were looking....(I forget now which ear was which).

P.S. Barry, is there or where's the spell check in this thing?

Where are these married mens' wedding rings?:crazysmile:
give us singles a clue, so as not to make fools of our selves...
~Lorrie

Barry

10-05-2006, 04:43 PM

P.S. Barry, is there or where's the spell check in this thing?Currently there is spell checker support for IE. Spell checking for Firefox and other browsers is part of the major upgrade for WaccoBB.net that I am working on.

miz editor

10-05-2006, 06:35 PM

Hi -
I tried to send this earlier, not sure it got posted. Why don't you circumvent the entire problem by handing the woman a piece of paper with your phone # on it? We women can get tired of handling male approaches, being put on the spot, etc. For the women, this situation brings into play the feeling of being pressured, plus all our conditioning to protect the male ego, dealing with uncertainty, etc. I often dont' want to be presented with such a bald choice, right in the moment. And -- if I'm going to put my own desirability on the line by approaching someone, I sure want to give the other person a gentler "out" in case they want to send the message "no, thanks". I think this is pretty fool-proof... no offense intended... [except perhaps to some of the incredibly crude replies you've gotten from some of the planet's remaining neanderthals out there ... "Play it ruff and you'll get the muff".... I mean, really.]

Dear Waccowomen

I am hoping that in your collective wisdom you will be able to help me with a problem I have been having recently. {snip}

pbrinton

10-06-2006, 12:08 AM

Well, I had no idea when I wrote the original post that it would generate so many responses. I was surprised to see so little protest at Absolutezero's comments, especially his last line; I am familiar with this line of thinking, and I agree with my friend Ed who told his son when he was 15 or so: "There will come a time when someone will tell you that the way to attract a women is to treat them badly. Do not on any account believe them. The way to attract women is to treat them well. Never forget that." He told me that his son (now much older) has considerable success with women.

To the person who said I should give a woman a piece of paper with my phone number on it, I do usually give out my card, but doing that puts the burden on the woman to make the first move, which makes many women uncomfortable.Even in today's world of equality, there is still a strong opinion that says that women should not appear aggressive by taking overt steps. That is why I tend to solicit permission to call. However it might be worth experimenting to see which strategy had a better success rate, though I am not sure if my frequency of contact would yield anything like a valid statistical sampling even over the course of a year. Maybe I need to draft all my single male friends into the effort. Not a bad idea, actually; in their zeal to collect data they might increase the frequency with which they approach women, and increased opportunities are bound to result in increased success rates.

There was also some talk about not playing games. I am not sure that this is even possible. It is even arguable that not playing games is itself a game. I do not think that total honesty and truthfulness is possible or even desirable. I value kindness far above truth, as long as there is no intent to gain something by deceit. We are all engaged in a glorious game called life, and the rules keeps changing. At any given time we may, indeed do, all agree that we are playing by a given set of rules, when we all know perfectly well that we are in fact playing by a completely different set of rules. Pointing out this uncomfortable fact is one of the most socially disruptive things one can do.

There is really no such thing as a natural existence any more. Everything we do and everything we think is colored by our culture, and to break out even a little and see reality from a higher perspective is extraordinarily different. There are many layers to the onion of reality, and there are stories for people who "see through" the dominant story. This does not necessarily mean that these people are any less deluded than the rest of us, they are just following a different game.

So (to prove that I have not really wandered off into never-never land, returning adroitly to the subject at hand) it is no wonder that we find it hard to mate successfully these days. I am not sure we did a good thing back in the sixties when we did such a good job of trashing the societal rule book. It was a lot of fun, and much good came out of it, but perhaps we would have been better to have had some substitute rules ready instead of making everyone make it up as they go along. I mean really the bottom line is that the sexual urge is very strong, and I would venture to say that most people would like to get laid regularly, man and woman alike, yet how terribly few actually seem to attain that worthy goal. Surely we can do better than this folks! Consider this a call to arms (and other body parts.)

It's time to make love, douse the glim
The fireflies flicker and dim
Birds of a feather all flock together
And the loin will lay down with the limb.

Patrick

Dixon

10-06-2006, 12:09 AM

...some of the incredibly crude replies you've gotten from some of the planet's remaining neanderthals out there ... "Play it ruff and you'll get the muff".... I mean, really.]Hey, maddief;

Don't be so hard on the guy. I thought "Play it ruff and you'll get the muff" was funny...and, perhaps sadly, true. Looking back over my life thus far, I think I should have played it "ruff" more often, instead of being so polite. If that's your idea of "incredibly crude", you haven't seen anything really crude, and if you think he deserves to be called a Neanderthal for saying it, then I guess I'm a Neanderthal, too--and proud of it.

If the concept of men wanting to get some "muff" disturbs you, I urge you to work on your empathy. As I've pointed out elsewhere, we men aren't responsible for the hormonally-driven needs evolution has given us any more than you women are responsible for your somewhat different relationship needs. If you're really bothered by the fact that men want "muff", I urge you to seek a lesbian relationship instead of a hetero one. Of course, any self-respecting dyke will want muff too, but she might be less likely to use that terminology that upsets you so.

Dixon "Muff-Diver" Wragg

tomcat

10-06-2006, 07:44 AM

I love the humor here...

But seriously, I'm not a 'single woman' (or a single man), but here are some ideas for you to think about...
We are ALL so different. Everyone has to find their own way, and a mate that fits (as best they can). It's a wonder we can do it at all in this day and age, what with all the intense programming we've received from our parents, TV, radio, magazines and books... all claiming to have THE answer. There is no ONE answer, as far as I can see.
One way to approach it is to just be yourself and relax and enjoy life, you'll probably get what you need.
So if you're interested in dancing, take a dance class. Maybe you like biking, join a bike club. Cooking, car racing, horseback riding, crafts, Zen, hang gliding, leather, protesting, ANYTHING!
Just do what you love, what makes you happy, and get involved with others who like the same thing and maybe others will see you as a happy person who loves what they are doing and they may be attracted to you. You will immediately have something in common with them and the rest may just fall into place.
Just PUT YOURSELF OUT THERE, and be who you are. Use whatever 'rules' feel right to you.
Well, it worked for me, and I'm now in the 27th year of a wonderful relationship.
All The Best.
Tom

Hey, maddief;

Don't be so hard on the guy. I thought "Play it ruff and you'll get the muff" was funny...and, perhaps sadly, true. Looking back over my life thus far, I think I should have played it "ruff" more often, instead of being so polite. If that's your idea of "incredibly crude", you haven't seen anything really crude, and if you think he deserves to be called a Neanderthal for saying it, then I guess I'm a Neanderthal, too--and proud of it.

If the concept of men wanting to get some "muff" disturbs you, I urge you to work on your empathy. As I've pointed out elsewhere, we men aren't responsible for the hormonally-driven needs evolution has given us any more than you women are responsible for your somewhat different relationship needs. If you're really bothered by the fact that men want "muff", I urge you to seek a lesbian relationship instead of a hetero one. Of course, any self-respecting dyke will want muff too, but she might be less likely to use that terminology that upsets you so.

Dixon "Muff-Diver" Wragg

Sabrina

10-06-2006, 10:42 AM

I really like what you say Tomcat, that's exactly what I used to tell my daughter when she was little and thought no one wanted to be her friend. I would encourage her to be happy playing what ever she really liked to play, and her happiness in her own self and joy would attract others to her! This is so true in life. I've never had a problem meeting people who were right for me at that time in my life, and it always happened through something I was really into, i.e. at a school I attended, doing dance i love, playing music with others, etc...what ever it is your really into yourself, just get involved with it, fully immersing yourself in your craft etc., and loving your path atc., and you will attract your community and or mates etc.... YOU must love yourself first, and be who you ARE, in relationship to the world
.

I love the humor here...

But seriously, I'm not a 'single woman' (or a single man), but here are some ideas for you to think about...
We are ALL so different. Everyone has to find their own way, and a mate that fits (as best they can). It's a wonder we can do it at all in this day and age, what with all the intense programming we've received from our parents, TV, radio, magazines and books... all claiming to have THE answer. There is no ONE answer, as far as I can see.
One way to approach it is to just be yourself and relax and enjoy life, you'll probably get what you need.
So if you're interested in dancing, take a dance class. Maybe you like biking, join a bike club. Cooking, car racing, horseback riding, crafts, Zen, hang gliding, leather, protesting, ANYTHING!
Just do what you love, what makes you happy, and get involved with others who like the same thing and maybe others will see you as a happy person who loves what they are doing and they may be attracted to you. You will immediately have something in common with them and the rest may just fall into place.
Just PUT YOURSELF OUT THERE, and be who you are. Use whatever 'rules' feel right to you.
Well, it worked for me, and I'm now in the 27th year of a wonderful relationship.
All The Best.
Tom

Lisa G

03-05-2007, 08:53 AM

Hello,
in responding to your question about persons seeming interested but then not responding - this is not just a female phenomena - I am a women and I have a number of potential contacts that I thought showed an interest but then the person just completely avoided me! No call, no e-mail, no explanation.
and I have not actually had any men really ask me out, just suggest or hint and then leave it to me to follow up on.
When I do, leaving them an out (if this is too soon...or If another day would be better) they opt out.
I think it is an "I am too busy to meet other people" kind of thing.

I am finding it hard to know if I should just bluntly ask a total stranger whom I have just had a brief conversation or possibly a connection with, for their phone number or to meet again. It seems very blundering to say to a guy in a store or a line somewhere, hey, I think you're attractive, or this was fun to chat, can i give you my number (or vice versa)

what do you think? A few times I have been this blunt and all three were involved in relatinship that precluded multiple dating. (I personally have no issues with dating multiple people)

Well, chat back if you will.
Lisa

fluteman

03-05-2007, 06:54 PM

Wow, what a fascinating thread here...I've read through every post and it's quite interesting and entertaining at the same time. I applaud everyone here for being honest and sharing both the male and female perspective of this subject matter.

In regards to your last post, Lisa G, I'll share a story that may shed some insight about taking a chance with someone you've just met.

A little over two years ago I was an avid social dancer, and one night at a very small night club I met this quite beautiful younger woman during the before dance lesson. However, I was really intimidated by her, for not only was she really attractive, she also stood about 6' 2" (I'm 5' 9"!)...which made her doubly intimidating. After the dance lesson she was sitting at the bar sipping at a drink...and I really wanted to ask her to dance, but I was completely and totally fearing a rejection. I swallowed my pride and walked right up to her, and as soon as I asked her to dance I braced myself for the "sorry, shortie!" reply that she was definitely going to give me.

We men can certainly be stupid, sometimes. :)

What actually happened was that his girl nearly jumped off of her barstool, grabbed my hand and said "I'd LOVE to dance with you!!!" and then proceeded to dance with me for almost 2 solid hours. We instantly connected with amazing chemistry (many people asked me later if she and I were dating)...and all in all that night we spent over 3 hours dancing together. It was easily the most incredible night of dancing I have ever experienced...and at the end of the night after giving her a very warm hug I was about to ask her for her number when I found myself hesitating. Heck, I hadn't asked if she was single, but she hadn't mentioned a boyfriend and surely, I would see her at the club next time...

My last memory of his woman is seeing her pause for a minute when we said goodbye...and she had this look on her face that seemed puzzled at best. Her body language seemed to be saying "why won't this guy ask me out??" and yet I poorly chose not to ask her out, and as anyone still reading this may know already, I never saw her again.

Truthfully, at the time I met this woman I was deep in grieving over the death of my father a few months prior as well as several other recent life altering events, and I hadn't been dating in more than a year. So sometimes I tell myself damn...should've/could've/would've...but then I also remember my fears of even asking her to dance in the first place, so at least I have some wonderful memories of whirling her around the dance floor to a live Latin band. But the true lesson of this story is, if you meet someone that you really like and feel comfortable with, even if they are a complete stranger - ASK THEM OUT! LIFE IS TOO SHORT AND LOVE IS SO PRECIOUS, IT'S WORTH THE RISK! :)

As a follow up to this story, the next time I found myself at this club, I decided that I'd had enough of being shy...regardless of my life being a mess, I was going to ask the next woman out that I found myself attracted to come hell or high water. Very soon I met a quite foxy young woman who I danced with for almost an hour...very sensually, I might add. After our dances I cut right to the chase and asked for her number, only to find that she was engaged...and more so, she also apologized for leading me on! She said, quite honestly, that she just got into the dance and didn't mean to give out the wrong signals, and thinking back, I'm almost positive that she was being truthful.

So to sum up my ramblings, I went home that night thinking hmm, first woman I've asked out in 2 years and she's engaged...win some, lose some, but at least I tried! :)

-Erick

Dixon

03-06-2007, 06:46 PM

This old nostrum applies here: "Fortune favors the bold."

Of course, I have little room to talk, as I myself usually chicken out.

Hypocritically yours;
Dixon

Hello,
in responding to your question about persons seeming interested but then not responding - this is not just a female phenomena - I am a women and I have a number of potential contacts that I thought showed an interest but then the person just completely avoided me! No call, no e-mail, no explanation.
and I have not actually had any men really ask me out, just suggest or hint and then leave it to me to follow up on.
When I do, leaving them an out (if this is too soon...or If another day would be better) they opt out.
I think it is an "I am too busy to meet other people" kind of thing.

I am finding it hard to know if I should just bluntly ask a total stranger whom I have just had a brief conversation or possibly a connection with, for their phone number or to meet again. It seems very blundering to say to a guy in a store or a line somewhere, hey, I think you're attractive, or this was fun to chat, can i give you my number (or vice versa)

what do you think? A few times I have been this blunt and all three were involved in relatinship that precluded multiple dating. (I personally have no issues with dating multiple people)

Well, chat back if you will.
Lisa

loi

03-06-2007, 08:10 PM

Hello,
I can only answer for myself and I must say that I feel badly that you are being treated this way. It is not acceptable to offer a number and then ignore the call. Perhaps the ones you are approaching are not so mature in their outlook? I know that when I was younger, I wasn't so empathic or honest (not that I'm really all that old now :). It seems that the way you ask is great - straightforward and honest.
Just don't base all women on those few who've messed with your head - and don't take it personally. It just means that they aren't ready for you. I would also say that after two times of calling, let it go.
Good luck!

Dear Waccowomen

I am hoping that in your collective wisdom you will be able to help me with a problem I have been having recently. I am a man who after many years of marriage now finds myself single ...

Comments, anyone?

fluteman

03-06-2007, 09:28 PM

Loi,

Thank you for sharing your last post...there's a lot of wisdom there that I imagine will resonate with a lot of people. I was thinking about this thread last night and realizing that there are so many questions, so many answers. Getting a person's phone number is one thing...but just the first step of another journey filled with risk and the potential for anything from the love of your life to a battlefield of emotional landmines. What I'm trying to say here is, since when did getting a call back from someone who just gave you their number really mean all that much?

We've all been enamoured by someone who seems so interesting and intriguing when we first meet them, but even having a date or two really doesn't tell you a whole heck of a lot about them. I had a woman give me her number once who I thought was so sweet, beautiful and kind, and while we talking on the phone to plan our first date, she then revealed to me that she had a steady boyfriend but had no problems with going out with me "just for fun." Or with others after several dates finding out about the non-mentionable boyfriend (or girlfriend, that's always interesting)...I could go on but I'm sure my point has been made.

I've always believed that good people are drawn to other good people...so if you're honest and kind towards others, eventually you will meet someone that you really click with. Being open and honest tends to mean you wear your heart on your sleeve...so there's a lot of potential for heartbreak, but also for a very deep loving connection all the same. :)

-Erick

Hello,
I can only answer for myself and I must say that I feel badly that you are being treated this way. It is not acceptable to offer a number and then ignore the call. Perhaps the ones you are approaching are not so mature in their outlook? I know that when I was younger, I wasn't so empathic or honest (not that I'm really all that old now :). It seems that the way you ask is great - straightforward and honest.
Just don't base all women on those few who've messed with your head - and don't take it personally. It just means that they aren't ready for you. I would also say that after two times of calling, let it go.
Good luck!

saysni

03-07-2007, 07:18 PM

Here's a great way to approach this situation (courtesy of a previous posting at the beginning of this thread):

Instead of directly asking the person out, ask the following instead:

"Is there any reason I shouldn't ask you out?"

If they're not really interested (or for any other reason) they can say, "Yes," with or without an explanation. By saying "No, no reason at all", the way is cleared for you to carry on with some confidence in mutual attraction and, perhaps, to 'take it to another level'.

Try it sometime and let us know how it goes. I haven't tried it yet, but just knowing i can summon up those words when needed gives me more 'confidence' than i had before without them. I love it! [Thank you Joan Price, and thanks to your source!]

Interesting as well in this scenario is that 'yes means no' and 'no' means 'yes'! It's perfection in irony - or that other element of proper English that at this moment (and many others) escapes me. Instead of that dreaded NO crushing some delicate/fragile ego, you hear a Yes, and maybe even get a sweet-but-wistful smile with which to wash it down! Sounds like win-win to me. I can't wait for my next rejection!!

-Stuart


Hello,
in responding to your question about persons seeming interested but then not responding - this is not just a female phenomena - I am a women and I have a number of potential contacts that I thought showed an interest but then the person just completely avoided me! No call, no e-mail, no explanation.
and I have not actually had any men really ask me out, just suggest or hint and then leave it to me to follow up on.
When I do, leaving them an out (if this is too soon...or If another day would be better) they opt out.
I think it is an "I am too busy to meet other people" kind of thing.

I am finding it hard to know if I should just bluntly ask a total stranger whom I have just had a brief conversation or possibly a connection with, for their phone number or to meet again. It seems very blundering to say to a guy in a store or a line somewhere, hey, I think you're attractive, or this was fun to chat, can i give you my number (or vice versa)

what do you think? A few times I have been this blunt and all three were involved in relatinship that precluded multiple dating. (I personally have no issues with dating multiple people)

Well, chat back if you will.
Lisa

pbrinton

03-07-2007, 10:29 PM

Well, this thread has suddenly taken on new life after seeming to die off for a while. Since I started it, I thought I would provide my later perspective.

First, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a gender based problem; it is more endemic in the culture, especially here in California. I can understand some of the factors, such as the desire not to hurt people by seeming to reject them, which on another level can all too often be a desire not to actually witness the other person suffering; in other words people often choose the route that impinges the least on their own comfort level, no matter that the other might in fact suffer more that way. So we will "lead people on" or at least allow them to believe something that is not actually true.

I am not sure what the answer is. I think that as a culture we have thrown out a lot of old ways of doing things that may have seemed hypocritical, but which perhaps did serve a useful purpose. It used to be that there were formulae that everyone knew had a certain meaning, but without actually articulating it. There were recognized ways of expressing romantic interest, and of gently rejecting (or accepting, depending on circumstances) that interest. Of course in those days men were expected to do all the approaching, and women the deciding, among other shortcomings, but perhaps we could have addressed these shortcomings without throwing out the whole system. There is a reason that circumlocutions come to be in common use; blunt language is harsh and over-direct, and people seek gentler ways of expressing things.

So perhaps we need to make up a new set of conventions to express these kinds of feelings. I am not sure what this might look like right at the moment. And then on the other end we might be less attached to specific outcomes, and not take it so hard when things do not work out. I look around at the random selection of women that I see in the normal course of my life, and I see that only a very small percentage attract me physically (in my opinion the absolute primary requirement when a romantic relationship is considered). This is not something that I have control over; i do not decide whom to be attracted to, my libido decides that all by itself. I can only imagine it must be the same (while varying by degree) for everyone.

Therefore the random chance that any two people will each be attracted to the other is pretty low. In the real world, of course, these things do not seem to be actually random, and it happens often enough to keep the species only too abundant. Perhaps the fact that when we are young (and especially fertile) our standards tend to be more inclusive. But now when the sap flows more slowly (though perhaps more richly) I find myself less eager to jump in unthinkingly. So if this is the general experience, we are probably going to meet a lot of rejection as we make our way through the maze. So less painful ways of both administering and accepting rejection would seem to be useful tools. In addition good ways to express attraction would be handy too.

The best idea I have seen on this subject is also the latest, from saysni (Stuart) who suggests asking "Is there any reason why I should not ask you out?" This seems like a very good one to me.

Patrick Brinton

Dixon

03-08-2007, 04:30 AM

In thinking about this business about people not having the consideration to return calls, I realized that I've done something similar in the past--telling a lady I'd call her and then not doing so.

The main such incident that comes to mind happened some years ago. I went on a first date with a woman and we were getting along well. I spoke enthusiastically about getting together again and promised to call her, and she responded with enthusiasm. Then, at some point during the date, I suddenly realized that I wasn't very attracted to her after all; the chemistry just wasn't strong enough to maintain any interest. I knew I was interested enough to have a casual roll in the hay with her, but that I would lose interest soon thereafter, and rather than set her up for that kind of disappointment, I decided to just drop the whole thing and not call her after all. I knew I should communicate with her, but couldn't figure out some unhurtful way to say "I decided you're not very attractive to me after all", so I just didn't call, rationalizing it by telling myself that she wouldn't really notice or care and would just forget about it.

Three weeks later, I ran into her at a dance. The next thing I knew, we were out in the parking lot, her crying her eyes out, and me feeling like an asshole and apologizing profusely. I still feel bad about how I handled that one, and I try to communicate better nowadays.

Anyway, maybe that's one reason people don't call back--they've decided they're not very attracted to you after all and don't know how to say it to you.

Dixon

Dear Waccowomen
I am hoping that in your collective wisdom you will be able to help me with a problem I have been having recently. I am a man who after many years of marriage now finds myself single (aside: if you smoke cigarettes, stop now! Lung cancer is not a pretty way to exit this world.) Being a person who enjoys female company I have been pursuing activities likely to bring me into the company of women, and I have not found it difficult to get into conversation, flirt and generally enjoy my direct initial interactions with a number of members of this delightful demographic. But here is my problem. If I have enjoyed the initial intereaction, I will usually say something on the order of "Well, I have really enjoyed talking to you; if I asked you to have dinner one night [or substitute other innocent "date" type suggestion] would you like to do that?" and often receive a positive, sometimes an enthusiastically positive reply, along with a phone number. However all too often (at least three times in the past month) I will call after a couple of days and suggest getting together, but not receive the courtesy of a call back.

Now I am aware that some people find it difficult to say "no" in the moment, and will give the impression of willingness in order to avoid this uncomfortable duty, but surely you owe someone a response when they ask you out? I am left hanging, and wondering if I should call again in case my message was missed for some reason, and if so how many times and how soon before giving up? I do not want to give the impression of being a stalker! Should I just assume that no response means "no"? What is the general rule here, and are there steps I can take to improve my response percentage? Is there some way I can phrase my question so as to get a more honest answer in the first place?

Could the sisterhood maybe put out a general message to their half of the community that this kind of thing is not acceptable? It is hard enough these days, when we have thrown away all the social rules and signals that used to indicate interest or its lack, and not provided a new set of reliable indicators, to find common ground with members of one's chosen gender of interest without the discouragement of mixed signals.

Please do not take this as a flame or rant; I am genuinely puzzled and would very much like to resolve this problem. I suspect that I am not the only man who has experienced this. I also realize that there are almost certainly men out there who manifest similar behavior or worse, and I don't want to get into a "...and so are you" kind of battle; I am looking for solutions rather than arguments.

Comments, anyone?

sunnykait

03-08-2007, 10:05 PM

Reply -

I'm no expert on this subject but I do think that people who have been married before and are now single have new rules to learn. When we are in our twenties its totally different. When we are in our forties and single its a completely different landscape and territory. Hopefully we are smarter, wiser, healthy and mentally/emotionally balanced people at the time. Unfortunately by the time people are in their forties or beyond, this may or may not be the case! Life happens and crisis is part of life. There are people who may not have been consistent with their personal growth issues. It is mandatory to know yourself well before entering into any relationship, much less the secondary marketplace of love and romance. If we know who we are than we know who and what we are compatible with. Knowing this will help to discern who is who and where and when. By nature, women will always have the edge on extra sensory perception. Men are also perceptive and need to utilize those skills in this particular arena.

If a man is not being authentic with who he is and what he wants, a desirable, intelligent woman will be able to detect it and find that it may not be something that she feels good about pursuing. I think that works both ways. In any case its best to always be extremely present when meeting new people especially, and know how to evaluate a situation within a short amount of time. If your in doubt next time perhaps it is best to give your warmest, classiest, intelligent entrance, leave room for HER to feel invited back if she wants to approach you again and then exit the room. Best of luck to you! -k

A

Barry

03-13-2007, 10:47 AM

... By nature, women will always have the edge on extra sensory perception. Men are also perceptive and need to utilize those skills in this particular arena...This post kicked off a protracted debate :argument: about gender differences and the Scientific Method that has been split off into another thread in WaccoTalk category called, creatively, Gender Differences & the Scientific Method (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18986).

This thread can now return to it's regularly scheduled programming (the etiquette and possibilities of the first stages of dating). :bateyes: :din42: :kiss:

walengalen

06-02-2007, 01:49 PM

Moon

06-13-2007, 09:37 PM

Dear Waccowomen...

Now I am aware that some people find it difficult to say "no" in the moment, and will give the impression of willingness in order to avoid this uncomfortable duty, but surely you owe someone a response when they ask you out? I am left hanging, and wondering if I should call again in case my message was missed for some reason, and if so how many times and how soon before giving up? I do not want to give the impression of being a stalker! Should I just assume that no response means "no"? What is the general rule here, and are there steps I can take to improve my response percentage? Is there some way I can phrase my question so as to get a more honest answer in the first place?

Could the sisterhood maybe put out a general message to their half of the community that this kind of thing is not acceptable? ...

Comments, anyone?

I'll back that message; it's definitely rude not to return a call you've encouraged. [If someone didn't really want to give out their phone number and did so anyway(!), i recommend to them the exercise feminists created over 35 years ago: Stand in front of a mirror, and practice saying the word "No"--"No, thank you," "No, i'm sorry," "No, but i've enjoyed talking with you," etc.] I must add a caution to make sure all communications systems are Go. I answered a posting in this category, never heard back from the man who'd posted and am only now realizing the problem may well be with my email server, which has been known to get over-zealous about what it is pleased to consider "spam." Leave yourself a message
on your answering machine to see whether you get it, and leave her one more message in case her machine had a momentary fugue. If she still doesn't respond, then my feeling is "Good riddance. Thank you, Universe, for weeding out that dead end before i invested a lot of energy."