Back To Election Coming Up Soon

[helenscott08]

Maybe I am all alone in the belief that we should ALL BE LISTENING TO, READING EVERYTHING WE CAN get our hands on about the candidates running for election this year.

I just finished reading Barry's article about THE MATRIX, IN THIS same heading, which was really good. Long but good. In order to really digest it, I am going to reread it.

I am very concerned about the IMMENSE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL MEXICANS currently in our country. I REALLY think this has to be turned around and stopped or we most certainly will loose our COUNTRY.

I was listening to a radio program last night (late) called COAST TO COAST PM and later it became AM. The host is George Norry? and his guest last night was PAT BUCHANAN. I was so impressed with what Pat Buchanan had to say about this problem. It is even worse than I had previously thought.

Anyway, I really want to know where all the candidates stand on this subject. I know more people are becoming aware of this problem these days but still think most are AFRAID to speak out. That too, is a dreadful sign we are loosing our way.

If you wish to REPLY, PLEASE DO SO PUBLICLY so others will be able to get your input and perhaps give theirs.

Thanks,

helen scott

[zenekar]

Helen Scott writes:
"I am very concerned about the IMMENSE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL MEXICANS currently in our country. I REALLY think this has to be turned around and stopped or we most certainly will loose our COUNTRY."

A little history: Not so long ago the South Western part of "OUR COUNTRY" was Mexico. Read the (Spanish) names on the map -- Santa Rosa, San Francisco, Sacramento, San Jose, Sand Diego, etc. As has been the expansionist policy (Manifest Destiny) since the inception of this nation, the US invaded Mexico and occupied the land.

Pat Buchanon is not shy about expressing his xenophobia. You may want to research more intelligent and resonable sources and learn how you benefit from Mexican immigrants -- legal or not. Think about who's hard work made it possible for you to enjoy the bounty of food and wine on your table.

With respect for the human race.
Attila

p.s. Here is a little more history about people who were here before you and I.

WE DIDN'T CROSS THE BORDER
(Story in the Glass of Wine)

My name is Jesus (he-sus), a common name from conquistadores.
My real name is Ichtaca in the language of my ancestors.
We cultivated squash and maize from mother earth's creation
Until thieves took our land and made us work on their plantation.

Junipero Serra enslaved my indigenous sisters and brothers.
We built Franciscan missions while being robbed of our culture.
America invaded Mexica nation, called it manifest destiny.
Settlers came with gold fever, hunted my kin for state bounty.

Raise your glass of wine to the light.
Can you visualize my people's plight?

We didn't cross the border.
The border crossed our people's land.

I'm a poor campesino working long hot days in the wine country
Where brown men and women are exploited for fat profits of the winery.
We till the soil, harvest ripe grapes for lifestyles of the wealthy.
I share a room with seven brethren -- we survive in poverty.

Rice and beans boil in my pot while rich folks enjoy a six course meal.
We are grateful for what we've got, why some take so much, how could it feel
To be so unkind to a fellow man -- aint no way to be a good neighbor.
Know the story of the farm worker while sipping fine vintage from his labor.

Raise your glass of wine to the light.
Can you visualize my people's plight?

We didn't cross the border.
The border crossed our people's land.

© 2004, Attila Nagy

-----



Maybe I am all alone in the belief that we should ALL BE LISTENING TO, READING EVERYTHING WE CAN get our hands on about the candidates running for election this year.

I just finished reading Barry's article about THE MATRIX, IN THIS same heading, which was really good. Long but good. In order to really digest it, I am going to reread it.

I am very concerned about the IMMENSE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL MEXICANS currently in our country. I REALLY think this has to be turned around and stopped or we most certainly will loose our COUNTRY.

I was listening to a radio program last night (late) called COAST TO COAST PM and later it became AM. The host is George Norry? and his guest last night was PAT BUCHANAN. I was so impressed with what Pat Buchanan had to say about this problem. It is even worse than I had previously thought.

Anyway, I really want to know where all the candidates stand on this subject. I know more people are becoming aware of this problem these days but still think most are AFRAID to speak out. That too, is a dreadful sign we are loosing our way.

If you wish to REPLY, PLEASE DO SO PUBLICLY so others will be able to get your input and perhaps give theirs.

Thanks,

helen scott

[Dixon]

Ugh. I thought we'd beaten this topic into the ground several months ago--I know I spent hours writing about it, but maybe that was wacco-bb instead of WaccoBB. [Nope, it was here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9252)- B]

Anyway, I can't let this poison go unchallenged--silly me!--so, as briefly as possible, here we go again:

Helen, the fatal flaw in your position is your assumption that this is "our" country, "our" apparently meaning the European-based culture represented by the government of the "United States of America", which you feel therefore has the right to draw lines called borders on this continent and control peoples' comings and goings.

As we all know, North and South America and their environs were stolen by white colonial powers from the indigenous brown people who are the real owners (if indeed it's meaningful to say that anyone owns the earth). This centuries-long theft is the most brutal depredation ever perpetrated.

Helen, do you believe that stealing something really makes it yours? If you do, please announce that publicly so the rest of us can be on guard when you're around.

I insist that stealing something doesn't make it ours, and that means that the real owners of this continent are still the indigenous people. With that in mind, it's clear that for us white folks to draw lines on this continent and prevent brown folks' free passage on their own continent is not only immoral, arrogant and irrational, it's downright bizarre. It also implicitly validates the genocide that "our country' was founded on. What a slap in the face to the indigenous people, on top of the horrors they've already been subjected to!

And keep in mind, Helen, that the wealth of this country you don't want to share with those you call "illegal" came from exploiting "our" resources which were stolen along with the continent.

Any of you who find the quality of life decreasing in "our" country due to the influx of brown folks are encouraged to go "back" to Europe (although let me warn you that you'll encounter some brown folks there, too). As for me, I'm conscious of the fact that I'm a guest on Indian land, and I'm gonna treat my hosts with respect.

Gee, somehow I'm not surprised that you're impressed with Pat Buchanan, Helen--you two seem like birds of a feather. I won't speculate about the species, but I'll sign off with my favorite Pat Buchanan joke: "If you think his speeches are impressive, you oughta hear them in the original German!"

Love;
Dixon "Race Traitor" Wragg


I am very concerned about the IMMENSE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL MEXICANS currently in our country. I REALLY think this has to be turned around and stopped or we most certainly will loose our COUNTRY.

I was listening to a radio program last night (late) called COAST TO COAST PM and later it became AM. The host is George Norry? and his guest last night was PAT BUCHANAN. I was so impressed with what Pat Buchanan had to say about this problem. It is even worse than I had previously thought.

Anyway, I really want to know where all the candidates stand on this subject. I know more people are becoming aware of this problem these days but still think most are AFRAID to speak out. That too, is a dreadful sign we are loosing our way.

If you wish to REPLY, PLEASE DO SO PUBLICLY so others will be able to get your input and perhaps give theirs.

Thanks,

helen scott

[phooph]

Just to add one more point of fact to this discussion, illegal immigration was on the decline until the passage of NAFTA which has had a negative impact on jobs here and in other North and Central American countries. It has put 1.5 million Mexican farmers out of work because Mexico must now accept US agricultural products that are subsidized by our government to the point where they are cheaper than those grown by Mexican farmers. So the farmers have come here to work on our farms to earn the money their families need to buy the food that they are now growing on US soil. How's that for irony?

Ruth


Maybe I am all alone in the belief that we should ALL BE LISTENING TO, READING EVERYTHING WE CAN get our hands on about the candidates running for election this year.

I just finished reading Barry's article about THE MATRIX, IN THIS same heading, which was really good. Long but good. In order to really digest it, I am going to reread it.

I am very concerned about the IMMENSE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL MEXICANS currently in our country. I REALLY think this has to be turned around and stopped or we most certainly will loose our COUNTRY.

I was listening to a radio program last night (late) called COAST TO COAST PM and later it became AM. The host is George Norry? and his guest last night was PAT BUCHANAN. I was so impressed with what Pat Buchanan had to say about this problem. It is even worse than I had previously thought.

Anyway, I really want to know where all the candidates stand on this subject. I know more people are becoming aware of this problem these days but still think most are AFRAID to speak out. That too, is a dreadful sign we are loosing our way.

If you wish to REPLY, PLEASE DO SO PUBLICLY so others will be able to get your input and perhaps give theirs.

Thanks,

helen scott

[alphagrl]

And, if anyone thinks that this county, this state, the California economy, the garment industry, our farms, gardens and wineries, would survive for 15 minutes without illegal laborers who work really hard for wages that are incredibly low with no benefits doing jobs that no one else wants, you are very deluded. Atilla's post was beautiful and articulate. Respect to all those who work so hard, so willingly, for so little. Props to the Graton and Healdsburg day labor centers.

peace out!

alpahgrl




Just to add one more point of fact to this discussion, illegal immigration was on the decline until the passage of NAFTA which has had a negative impact on jobs here and in other North and Central American countries. It has put 1.5 million Mexican farmers out of work because Mexico must now accept US agricultural products that are subsidized by our government to the point where they are cheaper than those grown by Mexican farmers. So the farmers have come here to work on our farms to earn the money their families need to buy the food that they are now growing on US soil. How's that for irony?

Ruth

[pexpert6]

And, if anyone thinks that this county, this state, the California economy, the garment industry, our farms, gardens and wineries, would survive for 15 minutes without illegal laborers... <snip>

alpahgrl

NEITHER major political party wants to end illegal immigration, no matter what they say.

The GOP is beholden to Big Business and Agribusiness (which is by far the same thing, given that almost everyone in the US shops at grocery stores). Big Agribusiness depends on extremely cheap labor (in no small percentage, illegals). Same holds true for some other significant industries. They SAY they're against illegal immigration to appease the xenophobes, but their campain warchests depend on contributions from those that profit from the illegals. The Republican *party* ran off it's tracks decades ago, and is little more than a whore.

Which brings me to the other whore that controls our political landscape:

The Dim-ocrats (having abandoned, for the most part, the middle class, etc., and having damn little of a viable platform for their existance) NEEDS the downtrodden immigrants, to boost its voter rolls. They continue to swing to the far left, claiming to want to give all sorts of priviledges, protections and assistance to the immigrants to bribe them into voting for Dems, and only the extreme Left support these extreme and unsustainable positions.

Right, wrong or otherwise, the economic system we have works for you if you work within its design. It's already being torn apart, jobs shipped to 3rd World countries. There may be a better system coming, but not likely within our lifetimes. We get to go through the hell of its demise.

As to indigenous people "owning" the Americas, they're interlopers, too! They came here 30 to 60,000 years ago from Asia. It wasn't theirs, they squatted.

Almost any argument you can come up with about this issue, on any side, can be refuted by the facts and logic. Humans make it ALL up, and they get others to agree with it, and that's what becomes Fact and Law. And someone will decide to get upset about it, whatever those Facts and Laws are.

Happy Sunday. I'm going to church, and pray for peace and love and the best possible outcome for everyone.

[tomcat]

Helen, Thank you for having the courage to bring this up again and state your opinion and feelings when others have such strong and opposing views.

I understand where you are coming from. I can agree with some of it. As far as loosing our country though, it is just changing and it will continue to change no matter what is done. Everything changes.

I have to agree though that we need to totally control our borders to stop the dangerous people and illegal workers from coming into our country from anywhere else.
I say OUR country simply because We happen to be here right now, and by WE, I mean EVERYONE who is here. It is not likely that everyone is going to go back to the place of their ancestors origin. It is sad what has happened to the native populations of MOST areas of the planet, but it's too late to change it now. Not going to happen. What's done is done. We need to move on and find ways to start treating each other fairly, with respect and dignity.

The way I see it, there needs to be some control in society, a reasonable expectation of security and safety. That is why we band together in civilized social groups. Yea, it sounds great to say... No borders, no rules, no laws... but that would quickly lead to Anarchy and the strong taking from the weak and there would be no safety or security. That is no way to live. We must have reasonable rules, rules that most can agree on and I think we have the best form of government in the world to enable that to happen. We just need to stay involved, vote, and realize that the majority rules... but at least we have a voice.

The changes that would take place if we truly controlled our borders would be many and affect many businesses who are used to CHEAP labor. This would need to be all sorted out.

I think that there should be programs set up to support the workers who want to come to this country to work legally at a FAIR wage and have decent housing and health care.

People will have to pay more for certain things, but we would get used to it when things settle out and the people who do the work would get paid fairly and legally and be an accepted part of the community. Illegal workers are often not treated or paid well and taken advantage of in many ways. This needs to be stopped ASAP!

Just my opinion,
Tom



Maybe I am all alone in the belief that we should ALL BE LISTENING TO, READING EVERYTHING WE CAN get our hands on about the candidates running for election this year.

I just finished reading Barry's article about THE MATRIX, IN THIS same heading, which was really good. Long but good. In order to really digest it, I am going to reread it.

I am very concerned about the IMMENSE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL MEXICANS currently in our country. I REALLY think this has to be turned around and stopped or we most certainly will loose our COUNTRY.

I was listening to a radio program last night (late) called COAST TO COAST PM and later it became AM. The host is George Norry? and his guest last night was PAT BUCHANAN. I was so impressed with what Pat Buchanan had to say about this problem. It is even worse than I had previously thought.

Anyway, I really want to know where all the candidates stand on this subject. I know more people are becoming aware of this problem these days but still think most are AFRAID to speak out. That too, is a dreadful sign we are loosing our way.

If you wish to REPLY, PLEASE DO SO PUBLICLY so others will be able to get your input and perhaps give theirs.

Thanks,

helen scott

[phooph]

Although there is much truth in this post by Pexpert6, there are also some failures of logic and understanding:

1. Illegals don't vote. How can any political party be catering to illegals to get more votes? Many legal immigrants who went through the proper channels resent illegals so there goes their vote too.

2. As someone who studies economic issues I can tell you that there exists a mountain of research that refutes the concept that the economic system we have works for you if you work within its design. It is designed to work much better for some than for others. Not the intentions of our founders but things have changed a lot since 1787 and the system we now have looks a whole lot more like the system the Revolution was fought against.

3. As to indigenous people being interlopers and squaters, who did they interlope and squat on? Both of those terms refer to those who infringe upon the property of already existing populations. Unless you are referring to the wildlife, there was no one else here to be interloped or have their property squated on.

One of the contributions to the fall of the Roman Empire was a flood of immigrants from other countries in the Empire. Rome milked its conquored countries for their wealth and the population went where the wealth was. The US has no official empire, but has created a virtual economic empire that functions just the same. With 6% of the world's population we consume 60% of the world's resources. The people go where the stuff and money is.

I recommend you read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, by John Perkins for a chilling account of how this empire has been built:
https://www.johnperkins.org/Preface.htm

Ruth


NEITHER major political party wants to end illegal immigration, no matter what they say.

The GOP is beholden to Big Business and Agribusiness (which is by far the same thing, given that almost everyone in the US shops at grocery stores). Big Agribusiness depends on extremely cheap labor (in no small percentage, illegals). Same holds true for some other significant industries. They SAY they're against illegal immigration to appease the xenophobes, but their campain warchests depend on contributions from those that profit from the illegals. The Republican *party* ran off it's tracks decades ago, and is little more than a whore.

Which brings me to the other whore that controls our political landscape:

The Dim-ocrats (having abandoned, for the most part, the middle class, etc., and having damn little of a viable platform for their existance) NEEDS the downtrodden immigrants, to boost its voter rolls. They continue to swing to the far left, claiming to want to give all sorts of priviledges, protections and assistance to the immigrants to bribe them into voting for Dems, and only the extreme Left support these extreme and unsustainable positions.

Right, wrong or otherwise, the economic system we have works for you if you work within its design. It's already being torn apart, jobs shipped to 3rd World countries. There may be a better system coming, but not likely within our lifetimes. We get to go through the hell of its demise.

As to indigenous people "owning" the Americas, they're interlopers, too! They came here 30 to 60,000 years ago from Asia. It wasn't theirs, they squatted.

Almost any argument you can come up with about this issue, on any side, can be refuted by the facts and logic. Humans make it ALL up, and they get others to agree with it, and that's what becomes Fact and Law. And someone will decide to get upset about it, whatever those Facts and Laws are.

Happy Sunday. I'm going to church, and pray for peace and love and the best possible outcome for everyone.

[Braggi]

Everyone should read the book "1491" by Charles Mann before voting on or even discussing these issues. It's a real eye-opener.

1491 (Amazon) (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/140004006X?v=glance)