If forefathers were christian, why did they say this???

[Valley Oak]

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Daily Kos
3.17.2015



If Our Founding Fathers Were All Christians, Why Did They Say This? (https://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/18/1285607/-If-Our-Founding-Fathers-Were-All-Christians-Why-Did-They-Say-This?detail=email#)

Nobody can deny the fact that Christianity has played a huge role in our history. From the first Thanksgiving to the ideas of Jesus Christ that are embroidered in our culture today, Christianity and the Bible is responsible a big part of our heritage.

However, many conservatives will take this fact way out of context. They'll think that you have to be a Christian to be patriotic, which is simply not true. Following the more secular teachings of Jesus Christ (being charitable, loving one another, treating strangers with kindness) is what the men who founded this country were for.

I don't want to waste my time listing all these obscurant far-right arguments, so instead I'll list the facts straight from our forefathers:


“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”

- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia (1789)


“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr (1787)


"In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind.”

- Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists (1771)


“Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.”

- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man (1791)


“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”

- Roger Sherman, Congress (1789)


"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)


"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people build a wall of separation between Church & State."

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptists (1802)


"To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)
(Note: You can read Paine's whole pamphlet, where he expresses his atheistic beliefs, by clicking on this link here.) (https://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/Crisis/Crisis-TOC.html)

“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.”

- Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1779)




"Christian establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr. (1774)


"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."

- George Washington, address to Congress (1790)


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

- James Madison, General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia (1785)

[Thad]

From the Historical reaches

" Why do with more what less does better"

The core of the Constitution was not made for us to be tiptoeing through all the laws

from one of the unspoken forefathers of The Constitution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

[podfish]

.<snip most="" for="" brevity="" while="" keeping="" some="" context=""></snip> (snipped for brevity...)

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)
(Note: You can read Paine's whole pamphlet, where he expresses his atheistic beliefs, by clicking on this link here.) (https://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/Crisis/Crisis-TOC.html)

“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.”

- Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1779)


"Christian establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr. (1774)


"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."

- George Washington, address to Congress (1790)


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- James Madison, General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia (1785)

if I were a god-fearing Christian I wouldn't be all that impressed with any of the quotes. There are ways to rationalize away all of them. Not that your points aren't worth making but the dissonance isn't accepted by true believers. They'll always feel that the quotes are out of context or are otherwise not meant to be taken at face value.

[Thad]

When in Rome speak as the Romans?

What would a Christian be without a bible?

If they really followed their scriptures, they would be called " Followers of The Way" as they were right after Jesus died. The name Christian was given and adopted from a slang derogatory, but it was supported by a misunderstanding of one of their scriptures.

"Those who are called by my name I will in no ways forsake"

They didn't understand that all the names of god are talking about the same god and being called by the name of God is like " The Call of The Wild" where the name isn't important it's being called to know what the truth is and those ones, they will not be forsaken

If you want to see a Christian melt down just have them explain the different ways that Judas died in the Bible

All will be clear that Christians are intellectual liars that rather than face the terrible position of being solely responsible for your decisions, its convenient to have a sinful nature that all you have to do is ask god to forgive and its all good, and you can count on that time after time without changing anything.

Good sheep, easily fleeced and led to the slaughter.


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"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

- James Madison, General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia (1785)



At one time in the reaches of Christianity after the Cathars were wiped out, because they observed no authority but god, those who brought you the bible didn't like their authority being questioned had this moment of enlightened conversations for the salons, The Question was " how much wood should we use when we burn someone at the stake ? Too much and it will be over too quickly, too little and the gruesomeness would turn people away"

Are there any candidates to be burned at the stake today?

You might want to revisit your voting record.

[MarilynO]

I find nothing in these quotes that would indicate they were not Christian. You seem to have an extremely narrow, stereotypical view of how Christians think. I am not one myself, but know many who are very logical, educated, deep thinkers with a great interest in Science, who find it laughable that anyone considers Science and Christianity in opposition to each other. Just because a certain type of Christian poo-poos evolution, doesn't mean the average Christian does. Don't think that because their belief system encompasses some notions you find irrational, that they are irrational people. Almost everyone has something they believe that might seem contrary to certain aspects of their mindset, especially to someone who doesn't understand their mindset. Trying to clump all Christians together is kind of like trying to clump all white people together. It's really not okay to stereotype anyone.


if I were a god-fearing Christian I wouldn't be all that impressed with any of the quotes. There are ways to rationalize away all of them. Not that your points aren't worth making but the dissonance isn't accepted by true believers. They'll always feel that the quotes are out of context or are otherwise not meant to be taken at face value.

[Thad]

If you are a Christian you must adopt the Heritage of that philosophy, Human nature will triumph over doctrine for sure

but if you claim the title you claim the separation

you will teach your children they have a sinful nature

not something that only needs more friends.

A Christian has an indoctrination that sets itself apart as a chosen people

more significant than others who do not think as they do

and this goes for anyone who claims an ideology

they sow the seed of elitism




I find nothing in these quotes that would indicate they were not Christian. You seem to have an extremely narrow, stereotypical view of how Christians think. I am not one myself, but know many who are very logical, educated, deep thinkers with a great interest in Science, who find it laughable that anyone considers Science and Christianity in opposition to each other. Just because a certain type of Christian poo-poos evolution, doesn't mean the average Christian does. Don't think that because their belief system encompasses some notions you find irrational, that they are irrational people. Almost everyone has something they believe that might seem contrary to certain aspects of their mindset, especially to someone who doesn't understand their mindset. Trying to clump all Christians together is kind of like trying to clump all white people together. It's really not okay to stereotype anyone.

[podfish]

I find nothing in these quotes that would indicate they were not Christian. You seem to have an extremely narrow, stereotypical view of how Christians think.... It's really not okay to stereotype anyone.
:firstplaceribbon:
Vocabulary Word of the Day

goes to podfish (again!) for

Snowclone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone)
"Snowclone is a neologism
[neologism is "a newly coined
term, word, or phrase that may be in
the process of entering common use,
but that has not yet been accepted
into mainstream language."]
for a type of cliché and phrasal template
originally defined as
"a multi-use, customizable, instantly recognizable,
time-worn, quoted or misquoted phrase or sentence
that can be used in an entirely open array
of different variants".[1]
An example of a snowclone is the phrase
"grey is the new black," which gave rise to the
template "X is the new Y."
X and Y may be replaced with different words or phrases"


You're reading things into my post (and this thread) that aren't there. I've been educated by Jesuits, have relatives who were Jesuits - in fact, some of my best friends are Jesuits. (it's a snowclone, in case the phrasing isn't familiar...)

Maybe the title of the OP implied these men weren't Christian. The context makes clear that in the article he's addressing those who claim that this country was founded by men who intended Christianity and Christian teachings to be part of public life. Thus the quotes like
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.”

and some which indicate even more of a disregard for religion like:
"Christian establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
'course lots of people who revere the forefathers aren't all that excited about Madison.

I'm not really sure how you read into my post the claim that Christianity and science are opposite each other. I certainly believe that Christians, especially those who hold to more traditional beliefs or who center their lives on their church's teachings, aren't living by rational principles. That doesn't remotely imply that they can't think rationally - it implies that they don't live lives ruled by rational principles. Who does?? let him cast the first stone. (see, I can even sling biblical quotes!!)

[Sara S]

"Snowclone"--cool! I just learned a new word!