I am livid over a recent "Thumbs down" editorial in the Press Democrat slamming of our City Council about last week's vote to express our city's widely supported opposition to fluoridating county water.
What most bothers me the most is that the editorial stated that the reason our Council voted 5-0 to send a letter to Cotati to support their opposition to fluoridation was because they thought it was a "communist plot."
Unlike the editorial page editors of the PD, or its reporter, I was there that night, and one of about 15 citizens who spoke against fluoridating water, including two dentists.
This editorial is entirely inaccurate and the PD owes our City Council and citizens an apology for the snarky editorial (that I am copying below). Not one citizen or Council member mentioned a "communist plot." This is simply untrue. It is also obnoxious, and offensive.
Yet to the thousands of readers of that column, this biased, false characterization is the yet another example of how "crazy radical" we are in Sebastopol.
Seriously, does anyone out there at Wacco have a theory about why the PD's editorial page is so intent upon maligning our City and its progressive City Council? Therapists, pundits and tea leaf readers welcome to chime in as a reply to this. I am baffled...:hmmm:
For the record, as I reported here last week, (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103454-Sebastopol-s-Awesome-City-Council-Votes-5-0-to-Oppose-County-Water-Fluoridation-Scheme&p=176207#post176207) more than a dozen citizens presented compelling evidence about why we stood unanimously against water fluoridation. Our Council members themselves provided additional rationales. Yet the PD's editorial page ignored reality, and instead, the decades old "communist plot" trope was trotted out, like a sick donkey being ridden by a lazy editor, to explain the vote. Along with a parroting of industry-provided, false "facts" about the efficiency of fluoridating water.
The editorial:
Press Democrat "Thumbs Down" Editorial Monday February 10, 2014 (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140210/opinion/140209654)
Let them stop eating cake What is it that San Jose, San Francisco, New York and 72 percent of the nation's population know that Sebastopol doesn't? It's that fluoridation is not a communist plot and actually helps reduce tooth decay, particularly for children. Nonetheless, the Sebastopol City Council voted 5-0 on Feb. 5 to oppose plans to fluoridate Sonoma County Water Agency supplies. The county has been looking at fluoridation since a 2009 report found this region is experiencing “a staggering burden of suffering and a growing oral health divide between rich and poor.” Fluoridation has been shown to decrease cavities in kids up to 40 percent. Studies also show that every $1 invested in fluoridation saves an estimated $38 in dental care. But here's the kicker: Sebastopol doesn't even get its water from the county. Furthermore, the council voted before even reading the final reports. Apparently that well of junk science and conspiracy was just too tempting to resist.
Valley Oak
02-13-2014, 12:32 AM
Who the hell owns the Press Democrat?
I am livid over a recent "Thumbs down" editorial in the Press Democrat ...
Peacetown Jonathan
02-13-2014, 11:14 AM
I just came across this excellent column about "The Age of Ignorance" (https://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/mar/20/age-of-ignorance/) in the USA today (from the NY Review), and thought of the question I ask in this post Why does the PD do this? Are they aware of how closely their actions, and what results from misleading the public, resembles what is described here as a a national affliction? Excerpt from the column:
Widespread ignorance bordering on idiocy is our new national goal. It’s no use pretending otherwise... The ideal citizen of a politically corrupt state, such as the one we now have, is a gullible dolt unable to tell truth from bullshit.
photolite
02-13-2014, 07:36 PM
This selected quote cuts both ways.
The editorialist's use of "communist plot" is a rhetorical flourish. Seizing upon it as evidence that the PD used it in a literal sense to explain the City Council's vote only serves to reinforce the negative stereotype to which you so stridently object.
I just came across this excellent column about "The Age of Ignorance" (https://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/mar/20/age-of-ignorance/) in the USA today (from the NY Review), and thought of the question I ask in this post Why does the PD do this? Are they aware of how closely their actions, and what results from misleading the public, resembles what is described here as a a national affliction? Excerpt from the column:
Widespread ignorance bordering on idiocy is our new national goal. It’s no use pretending otherwise... The ideal citizen of a politically corrupt state, such as the one we now have, is a gullible dolt unable to tell truth from bullshit.
Lilith Rogers
02-13-2014, 10:48 PM
What's really almost funny about this stupid and bizarre editorial is that usually they characterize Sebastopol as being a haven for "lefty pinkos" who would no doubt be very supportive of a "communist plot."
The whole thing is disgusting. If the county spent the money they're spending on "studying" this issue and then the money they're going to spend on adding this crap to the water on dental care for poor and low income kids and adults it would probably cost a lot less and save a lot more teeth!!
Fluoride is an industrial waste material and forcing people to drink it and then flushing it down the river is bad for everyone.
I am livid over a recent "Thumbs down" editorial in the Press Democrat slamming of our City Council about last week's vote to express our city's widely supported opposition to fluoridating county water. ...
Dixon
02-14-2014, 04:28 PM
Fluoride is an industrial waste material and forcing people to drink it and then flushing it down the river is bad for everyone.
I haven't studied both sides of the fluoridation issue, so am pretty much neutral on it, but I must take exception to this reasoning. The fact that something is waste material, industrial or otherwise, tells us nothing about its toxicity. Industrial waste material includes things such as water vapor, other harmless chemicals, sawdust, food scraps, and animal manure. Reusing waste material, industrial or otherwise, is called "recycling". It can be good or bad depending on the specific situation. If you wanna make a case against fluoridation, go ahead, but triggering emotional responses by invoking red-flag phrases like "industrial waste material" doesn't constitute a reasonable case against anything.
Lilith Rogers
02-15-2014, 05:26 PM
Okay, Dixon, I should have said "toxic waste material."
Check out the info that the opposition to fluoridation have brought forward and you'll find out more about it. Including the unfounded statistics the pro guys use on their sides. Check out the countries in Europe that provide dental care to all and the good teeth their citizens have as a result.
And don't you think it's insane that Medicare doesn't cover dental care for seniors? Like--oh, well, who needs teeth after you reach 65?
I haven't studied both sides of the fluoridation issue, so am pretty much neutral on it, but I must take exception to this reasoning. The fact that something is waste material, industrial or otherwise, tells us nothing about its toxicity. Industrial waste material includes things such as water vapor, other harmless chemicals, sawdust, food scraps, and animal manure. Reusing waste material, industrial or otherwise, is called "recycling". It can be good or bad depending on the specific situation. If you wanna make a case against fluoridation, go ahead, but triggering emotional responses by invoking red-flag phrases like "industrial waste material" doesn't constitute a reasonable case against anything.
kltkwmn~707
02-15-2014, 05:54 PM
There is nothing 'emotional' about facts re: the kind of industrial-grade toxic fluoride that is added to drinking waters across the world.
In a response to a comment under the recent 'Sebastopol vote' article, Clean Water Sonoma-Marin added that the type of fluoride that is planned to be added to Sonoma County's drinking water will be hydrofluorosilicic acid. This information can be found
in the Draft Fluoridation Preliminary Engineering Design Report by the MWH company that presented to the Sonoma County Department of Health Services in June 2013. A critique of said report, by the head of the Technical Advisory Committee of the Sonoma County Water Agency can be found with a Google search.
When people respond with condescending comments like "it's emotional' they are usually in denial about the seriousness of an issue, and would rather 'not get involved' by educating themselves. I personally find the 'it's emotional' commentary an oppressive form of boring b.s.; patronizing patriarchy shushing up people who have the courage to 'call the kettle black'. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I haven't studied both sides of the fluoridation issue, so am pretty much neutral on it, but I must take exception to this reasoning. The fact that something is waste material, industrial or otherwise, tells us nothing about its toxicity. Industrial waste material includes things such as water vapor, other harmless chemicals, sawdust, food scraps, and animal manure. Reusing waste material, industrial or otherwise, is called "recycling". It can be good or bad depending on the specific situation. If you wanna make a case against fluoridation, go ahead, but triggering emotional responses by invoking red-flag phrases like "industrial waste material" doesn't constitute a reasonable case against anything.
Dixon
02-16-2014, 12:43 AM
There is nothing 'emotional' about facts re: the kind of industrial-grade toxic fluoride that is added to drinking waters across the world.
If indeed fluoridation is toxic at the dosages used, you're right; there's nothing emotional about those facts. But you miss my point. Lilith didn't cite any facts about toxicity in her post; she just threw out the term "industrial waste material" with the clear implication that that means it's toxic, and that just isn't true. It was an appeal to emotion rather than logic, which is not a path to truth when assessing issues like this. Even if we assume that her (and your) position on fluoridation is right (and it may well be), appeals to emotion like that only detract from your credibility, which can ultimately hurt your cause.
When people respond with condescending comments like "it's emotional'...
You're needlessly (and insultingly) negativizing here. Pointing out that someone's argument is fallacious (in this case an emotional appeal rather than a rational argument) isn't condescending; it's reasoning. I would hope people would similarly point out my lapses when I make them; that's how we benefit from each other's perspective in dialogical reasoning.
...they are usually in denial about the seriousness of an issue...
Well, that could hardly apply to me, as I haven't declared a position on the issue. I take some pride in the fact that I'm willing to publicly say "I don't know" when I haven't found time to research both sides of an issue, rather than jumping into one camp and yelling imprecations at those on the "other side". I'm wondering, Kit--have you studied material from the pro-fluoride folks as well as the anti-fluoride activists?
...and would rather 'not get involved' by educating themselves...
Kit, for me to commit myself, even tentatively, to one side or the other would require at least a few hours of research on two or more sides of the issue. That doesn't sound like much until you realize that there are hundreds of people hollering for me to jump on their bandwagons--they think I'm a jerk if I don't commit myself to their side of the UFO issue, or gang-stalking, or Jesus, or Allah, or HAARP, or torture, or circumcision, or fat liberation, or anti-obesity, or food activism, or white power, or prison reform, or saving the bees, or veganism, or disability rights, or zero waste, or bicycling, or animal rights, or, or, OR!!! I'm overwhelmed! Have you "gotten involved" by educating yourself on two or more sides of all these issues? Of course not; it's virtually impossible. I probably won't find time to research your favorite cause(s) anytime soon. You can deal with that in a mature and tolerant way, or you can spew at people like me, thus driving us away from your side.
I personally find the 'it's emotional' commentary an oppressive form of boring b.s...
Does this mean that you don't agree that some arguments sacrifice rationality for fallacious appeals to emotion? Or maybe you recognize that that happens, but you don't want someone to point it out when the emotional argument is in support of something you believe? Dig this: labeling something "oppressive" just because you don't want to hear it is a closed-minded defense mechanism.
...patronizing patriarchy shushing up people who have the courage to 'call the kettle black'.
And so to point out the fallacy of an argument is "patronizing patriarchy"? And it constitutes "shushing" people? Everyone should just let crappy arguments go unchallenged, even though such arguments undercut the credibility of your position? You could have thanked me for helping to spruce up the anti-fluoridation argument by purging out obvious fallacies. Instead, you chose to say a bunch of snotty things based on needlessly negative interpretations: "condescending", "oppressive", "boring", "b.s.", "patronizing patriarchy", "shushing"--all of it gratuitously insulting bullshit. You're not doing your cause any good by publicly spewing like that.
seenhear
02-18-2014, 02:00 PM
I wish I could "express gratitude" for this post more than once. :thumbsup:
Dixon's post(s) had nothing to do with the fluoridation topic, he even stated he had no stance on the issue. He was elegantly criticizing someone's rhetoric, which should be done more often. The lack of reasoned, calm, logical remarks in discussions like this one is disturbing, annoying, and way too common.
If indeed fluoridation is toxic at the dosages used, you're right; there's nothing emotional about those facts. But you miss my point. Lilith didn't cite any facts about toxicity in her post; she just threw out the term "industrial waste material" with the clear implication that that means it's toxic, and that just isn't true. It was an appeal to emotion rather than logic, which is not a path to truth when assessing issues like this.....
haammer
02-18-2014, 03:05 PM
Here's a letter to the editor I recently sent in:
The editorial Let them stop eating cake (Feb 5th)is entirely ignorant. Sebastopol citizens did not vote against fluoridation because it is a “communist plot,” as it was suggested. In fact, not a single person who spoke against fluoridation at the city council meeting made mention of anything remotely like a communist plot. Rather, a dozen people (2 of whom were dentists), gave an abundance of valid facts and statistics about the potential risk and uselessness of fluoridated water. Smearing progressive, well-researched voices as hyped up on “junk science and conspiracy” is shockingly ignorant and insulting. It should also be noted that more recently, Portland and Davis citizens voted overwhelmingly against fluoridation, another fact that the editorial forgot to research.
As a native Sebastopolian, I am exasperated by this recklessly un-researched slam-article. This is a matter of professional ethics. The statements made by the editorial are false, and I would like to see a public apology made to the Sebastopol City Council and citizens.
podfish
02-18-2014, 03:48 PM
The editorial Let them stop eating cake (Feb 5th)is entirely ignorant....
As a native Sebastopolian, I am exasperated by this recklessly un-researched slam-article. This is a matter of professional ethics. The statements made by the editorial are false, and I would like to see a public apology made to the Sebastopol City Council and citizens.I'm not on the same side of this issue as you are, but I completely agree that the PD was lazy and showed disrespect, not only for those who they falsely represented but for their readership as a whole. When you can't tell from an article what the writer actually observed as opposed to what they think, it's not journalism. It violates the implied contract between the press and their readers in a very destructive way.
seenhear
02-18-2014, 06:01 PM
"podfish" wrote,
"When you can't tell from an article what the writer actually observed as opposed to what they think, it's not journalism." Absolutely correct. That piece was not journalism, it was OPINION.
I have no opinion on the topic of fluoridation of SoCo drinking water. I do however, take issue with the panning of the PD's quality of journalism based on an editorial piece.
An editorial article is an opinion piece; in fact the PD calls their editorial section "OPINION." Kind of blatant. It should not be judged next to the PD's standard of news reporting. Instead, reference their actual news article on the topic, here:
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140205/articles/140209799 (misuse of the word "affects" instead of "effects" not withstanding).
I think that article is fairly well balanced.
I'm not on the same side of this issue as you are, but ...
Lilith Rogers
02-18-2014, 10:40 PM
Thanks for this well written letter to the editor re this issue, Haammer. And thanks for posting it on WACCO. Perhaps it will bring the discussion back to the actual issues. Lilith
Here's a letter to the editor I recently sent in:
The editorial Let them stop eating cake (Feb 5th)is entirely ignorant. Sebastopol citizens did not vote against fluoridation because it is a “communist plot,” as it was suggested.....
seenhear
02-19-2014, 09:47 AM
Thanks for this well written letter to the editor re this issue, Haammer. And thanks for posting it on WACCO. Perhaps it will bring the discussion back to the actual issues. Lilith
Just to clarify: are the "actual issues" you mention those about fluoridation of drinking water in Sonoma County? If so that topic is here:
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?87953-Expanding-Water-Fluoridation-in-Sonoma-County
This thread stemmed from the OP's claim about the Press Democrat's so-called continuous insulting of and lies about Sebastopol.
This thread was never really directly about the pros/cons of fluoridation of drinking water in Sonoma County.
Peacetown Jonathan
03-13-2014, 10:28 PM
I have been meaning to respond to some of the commenters on this board who call the PD's comments about "communist plot" merely standard "rhetorical flourish," as well as this thought that followed:
That piece was not journalism, it was OPINION.
I have no opinion on the topic of fluoridation of SoCo drinking water. I do however, take issue with the panning of the PD's quality of journalism based on an editorial piece.
After reading these, I re-read the original editorial (copied again below), considering what my fellow pundits on this board had posted.
I have been a journalist now for more than 35 years--one who has written many strongly worded opinion columns, as well as investigative articles.
There is a difference between expressing what you think as opinion, and deliberately mis-characterizing what people who hold a different opinion think, in order to insult, and diminish, their perspective.
This is a professional line, one that is not to be ethically crossed, in an editorial, or an opinion column, or an article.
The PD crossed this line, quite clearly. The "communist plot" comment was in the opening, suggesting this fear was what drove the Council to its vote. And then, again, in the closing description of why our Council voted as it did, stating, "that well of junk science and conspiracy was just too tempting to resist."
The editorial also suggests that Sebastopol's City Council acted without "reading the final report." As though they, and we, the many critics of fluoridating water, do not have an abundance of data available to form our opinion, without the Supervisor-funded study. Here are cogent 50 arguments against fluoridation, all footnoted (https://fluoridealert.org/articles/50-reasons/). I challenge anyone to read this and call it junk science. Or, to find allegations of a "communist plot."
In my experience, the people I have interviewed, and heard speak against fluoride, are better informed than those, like the PD editorialist, who support spending a million a year to put a substance in our water that will make it less healthy to drink, especially for infants under two years of age, household pets, and livestock.
Those who support fluoridation have more faith in authority than those who oppose it. The opposition believes that lobbyists exert undue influence over professional organizations, like the American Dental Association, and our political process, in matters of public health.
But this does not make us believers in junk science, or communist conspiracies.
The PD's editorial was unprofessional, misleading, and insulting.
Sebastopol deserves better.
And so do the subscribers of the Press Democrat.
Press Democrat "Thumbs Down" Editorial Monday February 10, 2014 (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140210/opinion/140209654)
Let them stop eating cake What is it that San Jose, San Francisco, New York and 72 percent of the nation's population know that Sebastopol doesn't? It's that fluoridation is not a communist plot and actually helps reduce tooth decay, particularly for children. Nonetheless, the Sebastopol City Council voted 5-0 on Feb. 5 to oppose plans to fluoridate Sonoma County Water Agency supplies. The county has been looking at fluoridation since a 2009 report found this region is experiencing “a staggering burden of suffering and a growing oral health divide between rich and poor.” Fluoridation has been shown to decrease cavities in kids up to 40 percent. Studies also show that every $1 invested in fluoridation saves an estimated $38 in dental care. But here's the kicker: Sebastopol doesn't even get its water from the county. Furthermore, the council voted before even reading the final reports. Apparently that well of junk science and conspiracy was just too tempting to resist.
photolite
03-14-2014, 09:49 AM
You infer that they are "deliberately mis-characterizing what people who hold a different opinion think, in order to insult, and diminish, their perspective."
I infer dry sarcasm.
zduckman
03-14-2014, 02:51 PM
AMEN brother. The Nazis used fluoride to pacify prison populations.
Ronaldo
03-15-2014, 11:47 AM
Check your facts before making assertions even about Nazis:
Check your facts before making assertions even about Nazis:
https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/oct/06/critics-water-fluoridation/truth-about-fluoride-doesnt-include-nazi-myth/
Great article, Ronaldo!
Quote from the article:
"...the first large-scale fluoridation in history, not in Europe, but in Grand Rapids, Mich., in 1945."
I have family in Grand Rapids, which happens to be a hotbed (coldbed?) of Christian fundamentalism, so I can readily believe that there's something in the water there that makes people stupid. :wink:
podfish
03-15-2014, 04:30 PM
Check your facts before making assertions even about Nazis:..but it sounds so truthy. Why ruin it?
(I'm doing my part to keep Colbert's great neologism from disappearing...)
Shandi
03-15-2014, 07:05 PM
I'm wondering if the PD has the ability to squash opinion/editorial pieces that might prove unfair and unpopular, as this one has. I don't remember if anyone actually identified the writer, but keep referring to the PD. I don't know what the guidelines are for opinion pieces, but most newpapers have some. On the other hand, the PD may not give it much thought, or if they do, might even realize that a piece like this would bring controversy, and that it's not always a bad thing to get people riled up, in the publicity business. It might even sell more papers.
It's interesting that anyone can get away with calling science "junk science", and on top of that insinuate that the council members are communists, but obviously they do.
That's because they're not on WaccoBB. We wouldn't let them get away with it here!
I think I saw a retort to the PD from one of our members. I would think there would be lots of them, to make the PD sit up and take notice, and maybe even have the person who wrote the editorial apologize, if it was an employee.
The Lancet (https://www.facebook.com/TheLancetMedicalJournal), the world's oldest and most prestigious medical journal, recently published a report classifying Fluoride as a dangerous neurotoxin. The report puts Fluoride in the same category Arsenic, Lead, and Mercury. Read for yourself...
Thanks for posting this, J. Maybe/hopefully this will carry some weight with the county, with dentists, with people who have been on the fence about this stuff. Spend the money on dental care for low income people.
Lilith
The Lancet (https://www.facebook.com/TheLancetMedicalJournal), the world's oldest and most prestigious medical journal, recently published a report classifying Fluoride as a dangerous neurotoxin. The report puts Fluoride in the same category Arsenic, Lead, and Mercury. Read for yourself...
"the Sebastopol City Council voted 5-0 on Feb. 5 to oppose plans to fluoridate Sonoma County Water Agency supplies. ... But here's the kicker: Sebastopol doesn't even get its water from the county."
I've also read that Sebastopol's water has been fluoridated for years. Can that be true?
zduckman
03-17-2014, 02:18 PM
I suggest watching this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7BqFtyCRJc&list=PLOr7p7HKafj4PMXjUWpDUpMgC-L9QySta
I haven't studied both sides of the fluoridation issue, so am pretty much neutral on it, but I must take exception to this reasoning. The fact that something is waste material, industrial or otherwise, tells us nothing about its toxicity. ...
seenhear
03-17-2014, 05:13 PM
The Lancet (https://www.facebook.com/TheLancetMedicalJournal), the world's oldest and most prestigious medical journal, Wait, what? "Most prestigious?" In who's estimation? Most INFAMOUS, maybe. While the Lancet does enjoy a very high impact factor (39-ish) that doesn't convey it's respect/popularity, which has dropped precipitously in recent years. Anyway NEJM trumps it by a WIDE margin by any measure (impact factor of 58 and definitely the most widely known/respected scientific journal of almost any topic).
recently published a report classifying Fluoride as a dangerous neurotoxin. The report puts Fluoride in the same category Arsenic, Lead, and Mercury. Read for yourself... I did read it for myself, did you? Did you follow any of the reference links? I was very un-impressed with this paper.
At first I was just skimming, and was hard-pressed to find where it even referenced fluoride. A search of the article for the letters "uorid" reveals only 5 mentions of the word "fluoride" in the entire article, one of which is the sole reference to a study on fluoridation of water. This sole reference was co-authored by Grandjean, one of the authors of this paper. So the author's only reference to back up his claims about fluoride is his own "study." I put "study" in quotes because that particular paper is itself a pretty weak one. Have you read it? It does no basic science at all; it's basically a review paper also, just like the one that references it. Anyway this thread is not about that paper but here's a link to it for anyone interested: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/pdf/ehp.1104912.pdf
Warning: it's not very impressive, as scientific medical papers go.
With a quick search I found that fluoridated water is usually in the range of 0.4 ~ 0.9 mg/L concentration. Grandjean uses data from Chinese studies, most of which referenced water with 5x to 10+x the concentration of normal fluoridated water (e.g. about 2~10mg/L). Upon review of these Chinese studies, the authors come up with an average IQ drop of ~7 for children exposed to these excessively fluoridated waters. While 7 IQ points could be statistically significant (the authors don't say, which makes the fact that these papers were published at all REALLY surprising) 7 IQ points is not a large gap. The standard deviation for most (maybe all?) IQ tests is 15, so we're talking a value that is ~46% of the standard deviation. That's reasonable in my experience, but it's not huge. So not terrible, but not earth-shattering results. However, the authors make NO association with the concentration levels; there were no data comparing X fluoride concentration to fluoride-free water. Virtually all the comparison data sets were within the range of the recommended dental theraputic range. So *at most* all this paper can claim is that EXCESSIVELY HIGH levels of fluoride are POSSIBLY bad.
However (again) even that kind of claim is a stretch for these authors' works. Nowhere did they account for other possibly confounding factors when it comes to explaining the apparent drop in IQ scores. Remember cardinal rule #1 for statistics: correlation does not imply causation. All they have shown is a correlation. Here's a great correlation study for you to chew on:
https://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2014/01/Autism-Organics-copy.jpg
That chart is obviously just to show a point; it's not the topic at hand. There are other issues with this paper, too. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Not something you want to hang your hat on, IMO.
PDines
03-17-2014, 07:37 PM
Hi Geoff -
Nope, Sebastopol absolutely does not fluoridate its water. Healdsburg does, and I think also a smaller water company near there.
In terms of the question about Sebastopol not getting water from the County -- the City officials and people speaking addressed this quite specifically.
1) First, what's not clear in the PD article is what the Sebastopol City Council did - which was to support Cotati in their speaking out against fluoridation. Anyone has the right to speak out against anything. Sebastopol did so as its own position and in support of a sister city that does receive SCWA water.
2) We're not in a separate vacuum-sealed locale in Sebastopol. We visit other towns, go to restaurants, work, school, friends' houses, etc. and thus would be exposed to fluoridation chemicals. We have people we care about in other areas -- friends, family, co-workers, employees, etc. We are not separate.
Additionally, we all are impacted by the reputation of this county, in tourism and so much more. Right now, we have a clean healthy image -- good air, water, food, biking, redwoods, ocean, etc. But that would be impacted by putting toxic chemicals into our shared water supply.
3) Fluoridation chemicals are NOT the pure stuff used in dentist offices. They're not even the same chemical compound. They did NOT go through the FDA testing and approval process as a medicine. They are demonstrated to be harmful to our health and environment, both in themselves and in the toxic chemicals that pollute them (because they're waste from an industrial scrubbing process). If the use of these chemicals causes health care costs to increase (which I feel they would) that would impact our county budget, etc. We would all pay the price.
4) The water treatment plant is right outside our town and on the precious Laguna. Fluoridation chemicals are NOT removed by water treatment and would go into our shared environment in large quantities, likely impacting wildlife and ecosystems -- and going into our shared water supplies -- including potentially the wells in Sebastopol and elsewhere.
==
I've spent years studying the fluoridation issue, and to me the evidence against it is very strong. But unfortunately, SOME medical mainstream people keep repeating the old beliefs and not looking at our updated understanding. However, once people look at the actual facts, they don't go back to repeating the pro-fluoridation story. The evidence just isn't there. Many prominent scientists are strongly against the practice, including previous proponents. That's why most countries do NOT add fluoridation chemicals to their shared water supplies.
I just encourage people to look at the case against fluoridation before forming an opinion. I think they might be surprised how different the facts are from the claims. Part of what's difficult is that some people who oppose fluoridation can make untrue claims (i.e., I don't think the evidence is there that the Nazis used it). This can make people skeptical of the opposition. But there's a very clear logical scientific case against community water fluoridation (CWF), and I think that once people see it, they don't go back.
>> And once you see it -- you don't want it in anyone's water supply -- especially the county where you live, the ecosystem, the aquifers. That's why people -- and cities -- are speaking up.
>> We have a right to speak up, and I'm incredibly proud of both Cotati and Sebastopol for doing so -- and for all the citizens who supported them in doing so. It can be hard to do this when the proponents are so vicious and unwilling to look at the facts. But we have a right to stand up for the truth and for our well-being.
Folks who are willing to see behind the wizard's curtain might want to read an article I wrote outlining the key reasons CWF just doesn't make sense - with citations - at www.patriciadines.info/PHMF.html (https://www.patriciadines.info/PHMF.html).
I hope this information is helpful and supports us all in acting for our shared well-being in factual and constructive ways.
Haven't seen any comments on this statement:
"the Sebastopol City Council voted 5-0 on Feb. 5 to oppose plans to fluoridate Sonoma County Water Agency supplies. ... But here's the kicker: Sebastopol doesn't even get its water from the county."
I've also read that Sebastopol's water has been fluoridated for years. Can that be true?
Peacetown Jonathan
03-17-2014, 09:11 PM
I am surprised that you were "hard pressed to find" where the article mentioned fluoride. Here it is excerpted:
A meta-analysis of 27 cross-sectional studies of children exposed to fluoride in drinking water, mainly from China, suggests an average IQ decrement of about seven points in children exposed to raised fluoride concentrations.44 Confounding from other substances seemed unlikely in most of these studies. Further characterization of the dose–response association would be desirable.
So the counter argument is that the study was flawed. "Nothing to see here folks," move on, and trust those with a vested financial interest, the associations and lobbyists and those who have entered government through the revolving door, or those who receive campaign contributions from them, to act as guardians for our public health.
Questioning authority, friends, means questioning the addition of toxic chemical additives to our water system. There are easier ways to address tooth decay than making everyone drink the kool aid. Um, I mean the fluoridated water. :waccosun:
...
At first I was just skimming, and was hard-pressed to find where it even referenced fluoride....
Jude Iam
03-17-2014, 09:50 PM
"…what does Sebastopol know…" is in agreement with
countries which have BANNED or REJECTED FLUORIDE:
Germany
France
Austria
Switzerland
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Sweden
Finland
Japan
China (!!!)
Sodium Fluoride kills rodents, causes apathy, causes cancer, lowers intelligence.
Plenty of research available - help yourself.
Companies either pay for it to be dumped as a toxin
OR get paid by water agencies to add it to drinking water supplies.
Work it out.
I find it astounding that people around here (with lots of access to information, etc.) do not 'get it'
and want to continue to discuss the pros and cons of fluoride, on and on,
or GMO's, or...
These times require seeing the larger picture, relatively quickly, and acting.
Best of luck - to us all, Jude
zduckman
03-17-2014, 11:47 PM
It is unfathomable that in THIS day and age with information right at their finger tips, people still refuse to believe that the government would actually conspire against them. Hmmmlets see, Iran Contra, Savings and Loan scandal, Enron scandal, The housing bubble collapse, masses of foreclosure...while banks receive buyouts....oh yes....and the icing on the cake .....wait for it...........911.
These documentaries leave no doubt in my mind.....that we are NOT being told the truth
WAKE UP sheeple:waccosun:
podfish
03-18-2014, 09:34 AM
It is unfathomable that in THIS day and age with information right at their finger tips, people still refuse to believe that the government would actually conspire against them.
These documentaries leave no doubt in my mind.....that we are NOT being told the truth
WAKE UP sheeple:waccosun:probably your mamma never told you the truth about everything either. No-one (ok, no-one I've ever met) is totally, unguardedly transparent and agenda-free, even those whose motives are pure. I also have met very few sheeple, though there do seem to be a lot of people who are pretty susceptible to simplistic and superficial explanations. Sorry I can't think of a sufficiently derogatory way to name them after an animal.
I'm much more worried about those whose interests are totally different than mine and who are operating completely out in public. Many are in government, as elected officials (which makes their supporters part of the problem) and others are entrenched bureaucrats. Others are in business and many are in entertainment. They also recruit "ordinary people" to work against what I think is the public interest. If all these people were stopped, things would change far more than if all the hidden conspirators were unmasked instead.
Jude Iam
03-18-2014, 10:36 AM
for those who wish to (begin/continue to) educate themselves about FLUORIDE, watch and read -
and, as always, "follow the money".
:idea: :2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents: :2cents: :hmmm:
best, jude
haloshames
03-18-2014, 11:44 AM
Someone needs to supply copies of Christopher Bryson's investigative journalism book
THE FLUORIDE DECEPTION, to whomever wrote this piece about us, plus to ALL members of the council considering fluoridation locally.
If excess fluoride (waters are naturally fluoridated) is put in nearby waters, we are all at risk,
especially "seniors"... 26% of menopausal women have a thyroid issue; many more develop them as they age.
For this very reason, those who have done their homework must show up at these farces called "discussions" across the nation, and especially here in SoCo.
They are presented by paid dentists, slide shows prepared far away, for questionable purposes.
While living in Boca Raton FL & teaching at a nearby university there, we attended the most embarrassing talk we had ever witnessed. It was supposed to promote fluoride, but the original presenter was ill, so another dentist presented the first doctor's slides. He did not have a clue. Most don't; they are paid to do this bidding.
The ADA is being directed by its major funders, successful businesses who build dental schools,
and in exchange, they want to continue to be able to dump their toxic waste byproducts into our drinking water;
all in the name of helping the poorest children.
Calling us "communists" does not negate their despicable gluttony.
As a Harvard educated MD and an RN, PhD with 8 books to our names, our last three thyroid books discuss the clear and obvious dangers to thyroid patients of this very questionable process!
There is too much to say here, but suffice it that there truly are no good studies on hydrofluosilicic acid,
which was substituted for sodium fluoride after the abandonment of the twin cities Michigan studies in the 50's.
What is known is that they contain mercury, lead, and other harmful pollutants, lowering IQ by 10 points in studies of children in China, causing increased osteosarcoma in young males, and it goes on.
The international research against it is massive. The EU banned it long ago, as have most civilized nations.
But leave it to us (U.S.) to find a way to dump industrial waste products into the water,
And then link it to patriotism...only in America.
Our medical offices are filled with Marin & Sonoma patients struggling against slowed thyroid function;
one of the major thyroid antagonists - besides chloride - is fluoride.
Past Surgeon Gen. C. Everett Koop should be held accountable for suggesting that fluoridation is one of our top accomplishments. Unless he was totally naive. Then he should not have been in charge of our health.
Why do we care?
We have spent the past 40 years educating our patients to do their homework,
to understand their delicate thyroid imbalances; and how they show up in our bodies.
We also encourage them to understand potential causes;
to fight in their communities against excess greed
Masquerading as patriotism and caring.
Name-calling is what is done when the facts are not on their side.
But this is simply not appropriate when it involves our health!
We are the ones who must speak out, OR - like canaries in the mines - we will pay the price for this deception.
Karilee Shames RN, PhD
Richard Shames MD
Proudly Sebastopol
...
The editorial:
Press Democrat "Thumbs Down" Editorial Monday February 10, 2014 (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140210/opinion/140209654)
Let them stop eating cake What is it that San Jose, San Francisco, New York and 72 percent of the nation's population know that Sebastopol doesn't? It's that fluoridation is not a communist plot and actually helps reduce tooth decay, particularly for children. Nonetheless, the Sebastopol City Council voted 5-0 on Feb. 5 to oppose plans to fluoridate Sonoma County Water Agency supplies. The county has been looking at fluoridation since a 2009 report found this region is experiencing “a staggering burden of suffering and a growing oral health divide between rich and poor.” Fluoridation has been shown to decrease cavities in kids up to 40 percent. Studies also show that every $1 invested in fluoridation saves an estimated $38 in dental care. But here's the kicker: Sebastopol doesn't even get its water from the county. Furthermore, the council voted before even reading the final reports. Apparently that well of junk science and conspiracy was just too tempting to resist.
Beverly Schenck
03-18-2014, 11:59 AM
They tend to hide the truth and protect government officials and large corporations. Corruptions prevails in Sonoma County and the PD hides the facts. I remember when the PD attack Rue Furch while she was running for Supervisor and look what we got "Scum ball Carrillo".
I am surprised that you were "hard pressed to find" where the article mentioned fluoride. Here it is excerpted: I think I made it clear that I read the whole article. The point I made that you are focusing on is that the article was only barely about fluoridation, despite your claim that this was "Big News". The actual article on fluoridation of drinking water is reference #44, and is written by the same backing author (Grandjean), and is a very weak paper, scientifically.
So the counter argument is that the study was flawed. "Nothing to see here folks," move on, and trust those with a vested financial interest, I have no vested interest whatsoever. I am a concerned citizen whose children drink SoCo water. My only interest is that people seek truth, and not blindly grab on to propaganda (which is plentiful from both sides of this argument). Or base such decisions on emotional beliefs. We liberals like to think we're all about the science (e.g. the climate change debate, which science has proven) until science doesn't actually back the message we want to present. Then we go find some pseudo-science or bad-science to prop up our anecdotal-evidence-based beliefs. (Herbal remedies, HGH as a panacea, vaccines are evil, the list goes on and on.)
As I've said before, I am on the fence in this debate. If fluoride in water is demonstrably safe & effective, then it seems like a good idea to fluoridate our water. If it's demonstrably unsafe & ineffective, then I would oppose the idea. So when you posted something that ostensibly was going to be a solid scientific paper, I eagerly reviewed it. But the paper and it's references are IMO flawed; the authors make sweeping claims with little to back them up, and brush aside serious potential flaws in their data.
You posted the link to this paper with the implication that it was "Big Fluoride News;" It was nothing of the sort. It was a weak paper, referencing another weak paper. There really WAS "nothing (new) to see here".
the associations and lobbyists and those who have entered government through the revolving door, or those who receive campaign contributions from them, to act as guardians for our public health.
Questioning authority, friends, means questioning the addition of toxic chemical additives to our water system. There are easier ways to address tooth decay than making everyone drink the kool aid. Um, I mean the fluoridated water. :waccosun: It's these kind of conspiracy theory sky is falling sort of comments that make me skeptical of a given stance/perspective. As I said I'm on the fence but YOUR post made me skeptical of your position. It was too blatantly biased. Do you know that there's arsenic in our drinking water? And chlorine? And lead? And dozens of other trace toxins? Chlorine is extremely toxic, and it's even added to the water! Why are you okay with this? You realize there are other, less risky methods to purify water, right? How can you accept chlorine being added to the water? Maybe because it's been demonstrated to be completely safe when kept below a certain concentration? Hmmmm.... Maybe we should strive for something like that with fluoridation, instead of just blindly saying NO! NEVER!
I keep seeing all these references to scientific evidence that fluoridation of water is dangerous, yet I've never seen any of these scientific papers (except for the Grandjean paper, which gets lots of undue attention.) Can someone please post any kind of legitimate, quality scientific research done on this topic?
Finally, I'm curious, who has a financial vested interest in fluoridating our water? That's an honest question.
seenhear
03-18-2014, 02:43 PM
How does the old saying go? "If you want something done right, do it yourself"...
Just to show I'm not biased against the anti-fluoridation camp (or the pro-camp for that matter), here is an example of not only a NEW (really new, not a re-hash of old papers, and really new as in to be published next month) study, it's from a respected journal in (gasp!) the appropriate area of study (toxicology), AND it shows excellent lack of bias (results are conflicting, with an excellent discussion afterwards.)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X14000249
"Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats." A. Martín-Pardillos, Toxicology, April 2014
I'm not going to give away the ending, but suffice to say I think many of you will find this study's results very interesting. If I write here what the findings are then people might not read it for themselves, which would be a shame. It's heavy stuff; the target audience is professional toxicologists and biologists. Skip to the discussion section and ignore the "big words" if you like. The message is still there, even if you don't bother looking up "osteochondrogenic transdifferentiation of cells". :-)
haloshames
03-18-2014, 03:44 PM
Thank you for sharing that link.....
Oh, Joy!
Now we can get all these neuro-toxins in one fine industrial waste byproduct - hydrofluosilicic acid -
that costs thousands of dollars for the phosphate fertilizer companies to dump at the toxic dump sites;
Follow the slight of hand that has allowed instead for the dumpers to be paid by US, the American people
As these toxic chemicals are being forced upon community after community across the US, in sham hearings.
Mercury, lead, arsenic, and other nerve toxins are contaminants resulting from the process...
Remember when Nero fiddled while Rome burned?
Rome burned because their brains were riddled with lead from the aqueducts. It took centuries to determine.
Surely those who expressed concern about poisons in the aqueducts then were laughed at -
Just as we are now. Yet they were right.
The Lancet (https://www.facebook.com/TheLancetMedicalJournal), the world's oldest and most prestigious medical journal, recently published a report classifying Fluoride as a dangerous neurotoxin. The report puts Fluoride in the same category Arsenic, Lead, and Mercury. Read for yourself...
For the answer to your question, "who has a vested interest in fluoridation" please read THE FLUORIDE DECEPTION, by investigative journalist Christopher Bryson. Amazing book. Then lets talk
!:thumbsup:
I think I made it clear that I read the whole article. The point I made that you are focusing on is that the article was only barely about fluoridation, ...
haloshames
03-18-2014, 05:07 PM
Thank you Barry, and to all who offered gratitude,
I have written many such letters to local papers, which have gone unpublished; despite our credentials!
Leaning toward WACCO - with much appreciation...:waccosun:
Sincerely, Karilee & Dr. Rich Shames
...As a Harvard educated MD and an RN, PhD with 8 books to our names, our last three thyroid books discuss the clear and obvious dangers to thyroid patients of this very questionable process!
There is too much to say here, but suffice it that there truly are no good studies on hydrofluosilicic acid,
which was substituted for sodium fluoride after the abandonment of the twin cities Michigan studies in the 50's. ...
Karilee Shames RN, PhD
Richard Shames MD
Proudly Sebastopol
seenhear
03-20-2014, 10:58 AM
Look, I'm not sure if I agree with you or not. I'm still on the fence. But your posts are also a little too much of "Listen to ME! I have a PhD and my partner went to Harvard!" I don't care. Your tone makes me doubt your claims; "though dost protest too much" if you know what I mean. That aside, there were a couple of blatant exaggerations in your post that even I caught, and I have not done much research on this topic at all. If you exaggerate facts or misrepresent them, it hurts your cause. One of the best ways to convince people is not with inflammatory fear-inducing hyperbolic claims, but rather with a balanced, unbiased presentation of facts. Let the facts (results from peer-reviewed scientific research) speak for themselves. Don't tell people what to think (then you're as bad as your opposition) given them information and let them think for themselves. If they don't understand the information let them ask questions.
Someone needs to supply copies of Christopher Bryson's investigative journalism book
THE FLUORIDE DECEPTION, to whomever wrote this piece about us, plus to ALL members of the council considering fluoridation locally. No thanks. These sorts of books are nearly always extremely biased, as the author is under no-one's scrutiny to present facts as facts rather than bending the facts to their whim, mis-leading the reader to make the author's conclusions rather than his/her own.
If excess fluoride (waters are naturally fluoridated) is put in nearby waters, we are all at risk,
especially "seniors"... 26% of menopausal women have a thyroid issue; many more develop them as they age. Honest question: is there strong evidence that adult thyroid function is affected by fluoride? I have seen papers about children's thyroid function; I have not seen any yet about adults (again I've not done much research). Can you provide some peer-reviewed scientific references (not books)? I know that thyroid function is somewhat dependent on iodine (that's one reason we eat iodized salt) and that fluoride easily displaces iodine due to it's smaller atomic mass. This gives an obvious hypothesis that fluoride would adversely affect thyroid function at any age, but that's just a hypothesis. More obvious hypotheses have been disproved; human physiology is quite complex.
snip, snip...
The ADA is being directed by its major funders, successful businesses who build dental schools,
and in exchange, they want to continue to be able to dump their toxic waste byproducts into our drinking water;
all in the name of helping the poorest children. Do we have proof, or even evidence that this is true, or is this a hypothesis, too?
Calling us "communists" does not negate their despicable gluttony. No one called anyone a communist. Quite the opposite: the opinion author claimed that Sebastopolians might think that fluoridation of SoCo drinking water is a "communist plot". If s/he thinks you might be fearful of a communist plot, wouldn't it follow then that s/he thinks you are anything BUT communist?
As a Harvard educated MD and an RN, PhD with YAWN....
BTW, that's a misleading statement. Richard did undergrad at Harvard, his MD is from Penn, which IMO is equally impressive as an MD from Harvard. So the fact that you misrepresented this makes you seem disingenuous to me. You could have just covered both bases and said "Ivy-League educated" or you could have not bragged at all, and just let the knowledge you share with us stand for itself.
There is too much to say here, but suffice it that there truly are no good studies on hydrofluosilicic acid, Then why do you keep harping on it? How do you know that it doesn't break down into less harmful (or more harmful) constituents? My oppinion is that you and others who keep emphasizing "hydrofluorosilicic acid" do so because it sounds more scary than just saying "fluoride." Sure they may not be using "medical grade" NaF, but if there are "no good studies" then how do you know of what you speak?
which was substituted for sodium fluoride after the abandonment of the twin cities Michigan studies in the 50's.Oooh, what a cliff hanger! Do tell us more. What did who abandon in 1950's Michigan? Oh, and I don't know how many areas, but Sodium Fluoride is still listed as an additive used to fluoridate public drinking water in some areas of the US.
What is known is that they They? They who? They what?
contain mercury, lead, and other harmful pollutants, lowering IQ by 10 points in studies of children in China No, the study (as weak as it was) clearly claimed an average drop of 7 IQ points. Again with the chicken-little exaggerations. I already commented a lot on those papers, but they neglected (or swept aside without good justification) MANY potential confounding factors that could have affected IQ. There was a statistical correlation, there was no causation established or even hypothesized.
causing increased osteosarcoma in young males, and it goes on. Yes, indeed it does go on, with lots of details you left out. Let's review the American Cancer Society's take on that EXACT research (spread across three studies) shall we?
A partial report of a study from the Harvard School of Public Health, published in 2006, found that exposure to higher levels of fluoride in drinking water was linked to a higher risk of osteosarcoma in boys but not in girls. However, researchers linked to the study noted that early results from a second part of the study did not appear to match those of the report. They therefore advised caution in interpreting the results.
The second part of the Harvard study, published in 2011, compared the fluoride levels in bones near tumors in people with osteosarcoma to the levels in people with other types of bone tumors. The researchers found no difference between the fluoride levels in the two groups.
Two more recent studies have compared the rates of osteosarcoma in areas with higher versus lower levels of fluoridation in Ireland and the United States. Neither study found an increased risk of osteosarcoma in areas of water fluoridation. Next I suppose you'll just tell us that the American Cancer Society is in the pocket of big-business and their polluting ways.
The international research against it is massive. The EU banned it long ago, as have most civilized nations.
But leave it to us (U.S.) to find a way to dump industrial waste products into the water,
And then link it to patriotism...only in America.Link it to patriotism? Who's doing that?
Our medical offices are filled with Marin & Sonoma patients struggling against slowed thyroid function;
one of the major thyroid antagonists - besides chloride - is fluoride. Maybe your offices are flooded with people complaining of thyroid problems because you ADVERTISE yourselves as experts in wholistic care for thyroid dysfunction. If your practice was a standard general medicine practice, not touting any one specialty in particular, AND you were flooded with a disproportionate number of thyroid complaints, that would be interesting. A thyroid-specialty practice getting lots of thyroid patients? Wow, BIG NEWS!
That aside, are you now implying that we should also stop chlorinating our drinking water? Maybe your patients' thyroids will benefit from that, but the resulting innundation of giardiasis and similar water-born GI afflictions on normal medical practices and emergency rooms would probably not be a good thing.
Past Surgeon Gen. C. Everett Koop should be held accountable for suggesting that fluoridation is one of our top accomplishments. Unless he was totally naive. Then he should not have been in charge of our health.
Why do we care?
We have spent the past 40 years educating our patients to do their homework,
to understand their delicate thyroid imbalances; and how they show up in our bodies.
We also encourage them to understand potential causes;
to fight in their communities against excess greed
Masquerading as patriotism and caring.
Name-calling is what is done when the facts are not on their side.
But this is simply not appropriate when it involves our health!
We are the ones who must speak out, OR - like canaries in the mines - we will pay the price for this deception.
Karilee Shames RN, PhD
Richard Shames MD
Proudly Sebastopol
That's great. I like the sound of your philosophy/mission for your medical practice. Unfortunately the opposite came through in your post. The way I read your post, I'd say you should practice what you preach more. Based on NONE of the things you have highlighted, I'm tending to lean toward the opinion that drinking water fluoridation is probably not a good idea. But posts like yours drive me nuts and make me suspicious of your claims; and based on the private messages I've received, I'm not the only one these kind of posts scare away.