Boycott CVS and shop where?

[Sara S]

When CVS first took over from Long's, I went in to get one item because I didn't want to go all the way to Walmart for just the one thing. The CVS price was more than twice the Walmart price, so I never went back. If you're suckered in by their loss-leaders, you'll end up paying way too much for anything else.


When I learned of the suit (thanks to WACCO), I stopped patronizing CVS, and don't anticipate returning.

[Rustie]

Really, so you shop at Walmart instead of CVS? And that somehow is suppose to be better or make sense? While we're on the subject of consistency, political correctness and corporate monster take-over, not to mention the tainting of our quaint little town, I wonder as I read the rant about CVS how many of you find yourselves grabbing that quick cup of Starbucks Latte. I know, it's hard to refuse when they are so conveniently located just about EVERYWHERE. I particularly appreciate how Sebastopol has at least 3 Starbucks, somehow that never seemed to be a problem for this community............just wondering what the criteria is?


When CVS first took over from Long's, I went in to get one item because I didn't want to go all the way to Walmart for just the one thing. The CVS price was more than twice the Walmart price, so I never went back. If you're suckered in by their loss-leaders, you'll end up paying way too much for anything else.

[Sara S]

Well, read my post again, why don't you, and maybe you'll get why it seems better to me: to save money, at first; then, when CVS tried to elbow its way into a bad traffic spot here, I just wouldn't ever patronize their stores. I make up my own mind about what I do, rather than follow any knee-jerk political-correctness theory.

I never go to Starbuck's either........


Really, so you shop at Walmart instead of CVS? And that somehow is suppose to be better or make sense? While we're on the subject of consistency, political correctness and corporate monster take-over, not to mention the tainting of our quaint little town, I wonder as I read the rant about CVS how many of you find yourselves grabbing that quick cup of Starbucks Latte. I know, it's hard to refuse when they are so conveniently located just about EVERYWHERE. I particularly appreciate how Sebastopol has at least 3 Starbucks, somehow that never seemed to be a problem for this community............just wondering what the criteria is?

[Nancy M Prebilich]

So.... you're all about "Cheap," first and foremost, and somehow driving to Rohnert Park (presumably in your electric fuel efficient car) makes chasing "cheap" ok. And you DON'T go to Starbucks, so you're therefore a more credible consumer... of "cheap." I think the point was, Sebastopol is chalk full of "conscientious" HYPOCRITES! You'll demand "fair trade" when it comes to your corporate coffee/tea/chai/whatever, but claim righteousness in driving to Walmart in Rohnert Park in protest against CVS's corporate bullying/expensive prices. That what I hear.

I too do not wish to see CVS/Chase move into that location. I just wish that the conversation was more intelligent, less hypocritical, and hell of a lot less self-righteous.... excuse me, "concientious!"

If traffic is such an issue, why is there not a stronger campaign to turn Main St. And Pet. Ave back into 2 way streets? Not that this would solve the CVS issue, but if controlling traffic congestion is such an issue, then why isn't this energy being put into solving the traffic issues? Dispite who ends up on that property?

[Barry]

While your point is worthy, Nancy, (though I think misplaced regarding Sara), your venom is not welcome.

There's lots going on the CVS issue. It's a big chain right at the center of Sebastopol, whereas they are welcome to keep their current location (possibly even adding a drive-through there). And it's a particularly "evil" chain at that. There's been a long standing prohibition against drive-through restaurants, but when extended to drug-stores, CVS chose to sue Sebastopol.

It's also a particularly bad corner in general because of the traffic and the 1-way street. Can you imagine people making a left turn into CVS from 12?? What's more, the drugstore is a high volume/ low value transaction use. The car dealership was a perfect low volume/high value use.

There's a place for chains (both in location and their low-cost offerings), and I think most of us (including me) frequent chains from time to time. However the location both in terms of traffic and invading the heart of downtown Sebastopol, combined with their corporate culture makes it a particularly inappropriate use of that site.


So.... you're all about "Cheap," first and foremost, and somehow driving to Rohnert Park (presumably in your electric fuel efficient car) makes chasing "cheap" ok. And you DON'T go to Starbucks, so you're therefore a more credible consumer... of "cheap." I think the point was, Sebastopol is chalk full of "conscientious" HYPOCRITES! You'll demand "fair trade" when it comes to your corporate coffee/tea/chai/whatever, but claim righteousness in driving to Walmart in Rohnert Park in protest against CVS's corporate bullying/expensive prices. That what I hear.

I too do not wish to see CVS/Chase move into that location. I just wish that the conversation was more intelligent, less hypocritical, and hell of a lot less self-righteous.... excuse me, "concientious!"

If traffic is such an issue, why is there not a stronger campaign to turn Main St. And Pet. Ave back into 2 way streets? Not that this would solve the CVS issue, but if controlling traffic congestion is such an issue, then why isn't this energy being put into solving the traffic issues? Dispite who ends up on that property?

[Nancy M Prebilich]

Oh Barry, you and your "venom." While I simply repeat someone's point back to them, and in doing so, point out the absurd and hypocritical, you resort to your character assasignation tactics. Why do you care anyway, you don't even live in Sebastopol.

[Judah L]

<br><br>
Oh Barry, you and your "venom." While I simply repeat someone's point back to them, and in doing so, point out the absurd and hypocritical, you resort to your character assasignation tactics. Why do you care anyway, you don't even live in Sebastopol.


:2cents:I believe Barry was referring to this quote in particular:
"So.... you're all about "Cheap," first and foremost, and somehow driving to Rohnert Park (presumably in your electric fuel efficient car) makes chasing "cheap" ok. And you DON'T go to Starbucks, so you're therefore a more credible consumer... of "cheap." I think the point was, Sebastopol is chalk full of "conscientious" HYPOCRITES! You'll demand "fair trade" when it comes to your corporate coffee/tea/chai/whatever, but claim righteousness in driving to Walmart in Rohnert Park in protest against CVS's corporate bullying/expensive prices. That what I hear.

I too do not wish to see CVS/Chase move into that location. I just wish that the conversation was more intelligent, less hypocritical, and hell of a lot less self-righteous.... excuse me, "concientious!"

... And we're accusing people of "character assasignation tactics"?
*assassination, btw

My question is, and maybe this is just because I don't live in Sebastopol... Why in the world would anybody be against drive-through pharmacies? That saves people time. My impression of the city-wide ban on drive-through food was that it was a way to ban unhealthy fast food places, not to simply ban people from making purchases of, in this case often life and death necessities, without getting out of their car on the way home or whatever...

By the way, like i said i don't live in Sebastopol, and you're right i really don't care, besides pointing out the hypocrisy of the word "hypocrite" getting thrown around like that.

Either way, thanks for the morning entertainment. Peace and love and all that, right Sebastopol peeps?

[podfish]

My question is, and maybe this is just because I don't live in Sebastopol... Why in the world would anybody be against drive-through pharmacies? That saves people time. My impression of the city-wide ban on drive-through food was that it was a way to ban unhealthy fast food places, obviously you don't live here, you clearly don't get how green we all really are!! and how little time means out here...


actually, no, it's a real issue, and not related to what you get while you're in your car. It's related to the fact that you are in your car. Cars themselves are an eco disaster, and an idling car is worse than one moving at freeway speeds - even though, moving at freeways speeds around here is more of a concept than an actuality these days. Idling in line, maybe backing up traffic, is something we want to discourage. Development that reinforces people's tendencies to use their cars is a 'bad thing'.

And beyond the eco side of the issue is the social one. Cars are bad for the livability of a downtown too. They may have become a necessary evil, but they're evil. Urban planning by definition is trying to shape behavior by creating an environment that encourages some activities and discourage others.

There's a pretty good consensus here in Wacco that a walkable city is something we should encourage, even over convenience. There are indeed arguments to be made for the benefits of drive-up but they're overwhelmed by the arguments against it. For example, there are other ways for people who find walking difficult to get medications than sitting in traffic. Maybe not as easy for them as driving up, but easy enough that we don't need to sacrifice our town's livability.

[tommy]

Drive thru's have been found to increase traffic in studies by architects, planners, universities, etc. People can sometimes be lazy, and would rather go to a drive thru restaurant or pharmacy, and sit in a line, and be served from their car, than go to a place where they have to park, get out of their car, go into the store, etc. Drive thrus become like a swarming device, creating more traffic, than a store without a drive thru.

It is important for this site, because this intersection is already heavily burdened with traffic, and it is not in the public interest, to create more traffic, with drive thru windows. Since it's a busy intersection, lines of cars waiting to use a drive thru can congest traffic, adding to delays, hot tempers, idling cars creating more smog, etc.



My question is, and maybe this is just because I don't live in Sebastopol... Why in the world would anybody be against drive-through pharmacies? That saves people time. My impression of the city-wide ban on drive-through food was that it was a way to ban unhealthy fast food places, not to simply ban people from making purchases of, in this case often life and death necessities, without getting out of their car on the way home or whatever...

[Judah L]

<br><br>
Drive thru's have been found to increase traffic in studies by architects, planners, universities, etc. People can sometimes be lazy, and would rather go to a drive thru restaurant or pharmacy, and sit in a line, and be served from their car, than go to a place where they have to park, get out of their car, go into the store, etc. Drive thrus become like a swarming device, creating more traffic, than a store without a drive thru.

It is important for this site, because this intersection is already heavily burdened with traffic, and it is not in the public interest, to create more traffic, with drive thru windows. Since it's a busy intersection, lines of cars waiting to use a drive thru can congest traffic, adding to delays, hot tempers, idling cars creating more smog, etc.

Tommy,

Thanks for the breakdown.

I still think it's infringing on people's freedoms to not allow them to purchase things from their car... But I guess you're still allowing online purchases for now so kudos to you all, how progressive.

[Judah L]

Also, anybody notice how SEBASTOPOL SENIOR CENTER expressed gratitude? There's a group who wants to purchase meds from their car on freezing rainy winter afternoons.

It's not JUST YOUR city you guys, you have to share it. Find a way to get what you want without taking away what others want, we learned that in preschool.

[podfish]

Also, anybody notice how SEBASTOPOL SENIOR CENTER expressed gratitude? There's a group who wants to purchase meds from their car on freezing rainy winter afternoons.

It's not JUST YOUR city you guys, you have to share it. Find a way to get what you want without taking away what others want, we learned that in preschool.
"what others want" is a factor, but some of us have already graduated preschool and moved on to tackling problems that can't be solved with preschool logic.
For example, seniors could park, call in on those spiffy new cell-phone thingies, and have a clerk take their medicine out to them. We don't still have gas jockeys like Oregon does, just because some people have limitations that make pumping their own gas hard. I haven't tried it myself (yet) but pumps all have a notice that says help is available on request. Something creative like that might be needed rather than giving in to the status quo. We're not talking about taking away a god-given right, or doing something arbitrary - this issue is multifaceted and of enough importance to deserve some effort. As Dean Wormer pointed out, there are ways to live that we should be willing to change.

[tommy]

Judah,

While I'm all for personal freedom, I live in a more and more crowded planet, where the expression of my freedom can limit the freedom of others. Smoking bans inside and outside cafes and restaurants indicate that it's not in the interest of the great majority, for a few smokers to pollute the air, that the majority of nonsmokers have to breath. Therefore smokers lose their freedom to smoke in public places - they have to go into their house, their car, someplace where the public does not gather.

This pretty trivial example can be broadened to include "clean air days" such as today, where people are asked not to burn wood, which creates soot in the air, that others have to breath, in drought and "no air cleansing rain days" like we've been having.

It ultimately leads to issues of global warming. Just because I live in the US, drive around alot, idle my car in pharmacy and fast food drive ins, may power my house from coal burning power plants... all of which lead to the warming of the atmosphere, the rise of the oceans, typhoons and hurricanes, loss of live and housing in poorer countries of the south. If I imagine living in the Philippines, of Bangladesh, or the Maldives, I'm less likely to contribute to global warming, less insistent on maintaining my personal freedom at the cost of lives of others, because I know the consequences. I'm less selfish, less insistent on me me me, more compassionate.


Tommy,

Thanks for the breakdown.

I still think it's infringing on people's freedoms to not allow them to purchase things from their car... But I guess you're still allowing online purchases for now so kudos to you all, how progressive.

[Nancy M Prebilich]

Judah, I think you are confused by what is a self-evident inalienable right/"freedom" and what is merely convenience and a preference. To have your preference or idea of convenience catered to is very different from infringing upon your "rights" and "freedom."

[photolite]

What no one here seems willing to address is the fact that the drive thru ban was initiated after CVS jumped through a million hoops to satisfy the town and were given an A-OK only to have the rules changed after committing to the site. I believe the new city council committed a major miscalculation by pissing off a big dog with a fierce bite. The 300k will be a drop in the bucket by the time this is resolved and I suspect they'll get their way and we'll be fleeced by the lawyers. And it really is our own short sighted fault. Too bad for our schools, libraries, social welfare programs, etc. when the $$$ just ain't there because we were too busy tilting at windmills.
We'll see.


Judah, I think you are confused by what is a self-evident inalienable right/"freedom" and what is merely conscientious and a preference. To have your preference or idea of convenience catered to is very different from infringing upon your "rights" and "freedom."

[Judah L]

Judah,

While I'm all for personal freedom, I live in a more and more crowded planet, where the expression of my freedom can limit the freedom of others. Smoking bans inside and outside cafes and restaurants indicate that it's not in the interest of the great majority, for a few smokers to pollute the air, that the majority of nonsmokers have to breath. Therefore smokers lose their freedom to smoke in public places - they have to go into their house, their car, someplace where the public does not gather.

This pretty trivial example can be broadened to include "clean air days" such as today, where people are asked not to burn wood, which creates soot in the air, that others have to breath, in drought and "no air cleansing rain days" like we've been having.

It ultimately leads to issues of global warming. Just because I live in the US, drive around alot, idle my car in pharmacy and fast food drive ins, may power my house from coal burning power plants... all of which lead to the warming of the atmosphere, the rise of the oceans, typhoons and hurricanes, loss of live and housing in poorer countries of the south. If I imagine living in the Philippines, of Bangladesh, or the Maldives, I'm less likely to contribute to global warming, less insistent on maintaining my personal freedom at the cost of lives of others, because I know the consequences. I'm less selfish, less insistent on me me me, more compassionate.


Lol you literally just said, "I'm going to ban people from doing something that I don't like and I'm going to feel more compassionate, less selfish, less insistent on me me me." Hahaha do you people read your posts before making them public or are you just too eager to be "punchy"?

​Ps
My fire on today's "no burn day" for you city folk, feels GREAT

[Judah L]

What no one here seems willing to address is the fact that the drive thru ban was initiated after CVS jumped through a million hoops to satisfy the town and were given an A-OK only to have the rules changed after committing to the site...

Pointing out that this is stupid, pointless and a waste of time... That's not what I expressed? Who cares? The funny thing is, if people don't use the fuckin drive-through then the company will close it to make room for more people to park and shop inside. Your dollar makes these decisions, not your online panty-bunching. Don't shop there. They'll relocate. You're obviously all freaked out because you're afraid that the majority isn't with you, and you're banking (probably safely in this case) that these chain consumers won't be the ones showing up to vote on matters that affect them. Not an uncommon tactic in politics. If your town is so progressive and green then a cvs won't stay afloat anyway. Otherwise you're not the majority and you're all just trying to impose your ideals onto others.
Good hippies.

[Nancy M Prebilich]

What no one here seems willing to address is the fact that the drive thru ban was initiated after CVS jumped through a million hoops to satisfy the town and were given an A-OK only to have the rules changed after committing to the site. I believe the new city council committed a major miscalculation by pissing off a big dog with a fierce bite. The 300k will be a drop in the bucket by the time this is resolved and I suspect they'll get their way and we'll be fleeced by the lawyers. And it really is our own short sighted fault. Too bad for our schools, libraries, social welfare programs, etc. when the $$$ just ain't there because we were too busy tilting at windmills.
We'll see.

I totally agree with you Photolite! I think the city has seriously screwed themselves by trying to do too little too late. Like I've said, I don't want to see CVS/Chase go into that location (or any big box chain in any downtown core location), but there are rules and procedures and CVS/Chase followed them to get what they wanted, the city manipulated them, the rules and procedures that is, to get what they wanted-after the fact. I think both Patrick Slayter and Kathleen Shafer got a bum wrap because I know they both felt the same way.

I blame our City Attorney for poor council, which I believe was just job security for him; give the "crazies" what they want, get the city in deep, so he has to be the one to get us out, all the while double dipping as City Attorney and City Manager.

I DON'T believe drive-thru's are "necessary," I also think Seb. lost a HUGE opportunity when we lost Amy's Kitchen moving into the Pasta Bela location because of the same ordinance and short sightedness. The citizens of this town need to stop demanding their "wants" and start thinking about how to get their wants through strategic, ECONOMICALLY SUSTAINABLE means. For all the talk of "sustainability" around here- this ain't it because not only are we going to loose, but we'll be in the poor house when we're done AND no decent business will want to deal with Sebastopol.

There's too much "progressive" reaction in Seb., not actual progressive forethought. We should have taken the hit with CVS/Chase, learned our lesson, and implemented policy for the FUTURE. But because we have very few intelligent debates in this town, we're left with the inmates running the asylum.

But now all those who rallied for the memorandum.... open up YOUR pocketbooks! You wanted this because you thought it the healthiest, greenest, most contientious way to live... YOU pay for it!! We'll all be eternally grateful. But that won't happen. Just like the protesting, boycotting, demonstrating in front of the current CVS and Chase aren't happening. If you want to stop them this late in the game you need national attention. You need to promote your Citta Slow city (get THAT International community backing you) and show the world how CVS/Chase is going to ruin that mission because although they followed all the procedures, they don't "CARE." It's about imaging and branding. Stop them by using THEIR OWN GAME! They played ours and won- they GOT APPROVED! Now their just going to take us to the cleaners too.

I want to know what's going on between the city and Frizelle-Enos now. GET IN FRONT OF THAT ONE SEBASTOPOL!! Help FE rebuild without a lot of crap, otherwise we'll "loose" that whole street. Pay attention, cut your losses, and use what you still have to change what you don't like.

[Barry]

I have granted Judah L's request to be removed from this board. In fairness to him, he requested to leave a few days ago, before his latest tirade, however I've been mostly off-line while taking care of my mom. BTW, he listed his real name as "FuckSebastopol Ha" so apparently he had an axe to grind.

For those of you who were offended by his comments, please accept my apologies. I have removed his recent more objectionable posts.

It's a pity he couldn't be a bit more respectful and thoughtful while presenting his viewpoint, because I think it could have made for a worthy and interesting discussion.

[Rustie]

You granted Judah's request to be removed - in fairness to him he requested days ago. What am I missing, is he obliged to respond if he was not removed when requested? What fairness is necessary, I'm surprised you didn't bitch slap him. I guess you removed his last post to Nancy - Wow - do we have a button to remove this guy from society? Seriously Barry, I have seen you call out folks for far less than this psycho - what's up?


I have granted Judah L's request to be removed from this board. In fairness to him, he requested to leave a few days ago, before his latest tirade, however I've been mostly off-line while taking care of my mom. BTW, he listed his real name as "FuckSebastopol Ha" so apparently he had an axe to grind.

For those of you who were offended by his comments, please accept my apologies. I have removed his recent more objectionable posts.

It's a pity he couldn't be a bit more respectful and thoughtful while presenting his viewpoint, because I think it could have made for a worthy and interesting discussion.

[Peacetown Jonathan]

Judith and Photolite, we are each entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. Out community would be better served if folks were more cautious before repeating the lie that CVS played by the rules and therefore "deserves" to put their drive through window at the most congested traffic crossroads of our city.

Like a number of concerned citizens, I attended the hearings over the CVS approval process. As an investigative legal and financial journalist, I also have a pretty developed sense of the legal analysis over this issue, and have been writing about it here on Wacco and in other local media.

For readers interested in the facts, here are two in depth Wacco posts about the troubling role of the City's Planning Director in railroading the process through its rules (overturning the legally empowered and deliberative Planning Commission, which found that CVS DID NOT revise its design adequately, despite clear instructions that a drive through window was incompatible with our pedestrian friendly General Plan
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?102559-Planning-Director-Kenyon-Webster-s-Troubling-Role-in-the-CVS-Controversy&p=174444#post174444

And the likely rigging of the traffic report:, which found, despite all evidence to the contrary, that 1,800 additional car trips a day to the busiest intersection in West County would not add more than FIVE SECONDS to traffic
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?91716-Article-Is-the-Sebastopol-Planning-Director-Rigging-the-CVS-Chase-Project&highlight=kenyon+webster&p=155907#post155907

I would also like to dispense with the well-marketed falsehood, promoted by CVS lobbyists and their supporters, with help from the popularly un-elected "under the radar" CVS cheerleader and fact distorter Kathleen Shaffer, that this CVS deal was needed, or would even be beneficial, to the local economy.

I wrote earlier in the week about this (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?102559-Planning-Director-Kenyon-Webster-s-Troubling-Role-in-the-CVS-Controversy&p=174400#post174400). To readers of this here at Wacco, I would like to point out that in the nearly two years since I have been reporting on this, nobody has ever presented evidence contradictory to the main conclusions that I draw.

Instead of slinging mud at our courageous Council Members now willing to stand for the cities who elected
them:heart:, (instead of boosters of the Pelini family, eager to sell this property to the highest bidder, despite the costs, in traffic and the diminishment of our ecology and pedestrian downtown), instead of repeating the discredited rhetoric of current Council Member Slayter and former Council Members Shaffer and Wilson that CVS "played by the rules so their hands were tied" I invite anyone to present FACTS that counter those conclusions that have been exposed here on Wacco, namely:

1) That the CVS project will not provide a net benefit to Sebastopol's economy

2) That the traffic report presents a suspicious and entirely inaccurate conclusion that there will be less than a five second impact on traffic heading East on Bodega Avenue

3) That Planning Director Kenyon Webster provided misleading data to support a negative traffic declaration and avoid an Environmental Impact Statement

4) That Planning Director Kenyon Webster exceeded his professional role as an advisor to our elected representatives, by expressing his opinion that The city's concerns for CVS' design had been met as a finding, as opposed to an opinion.

This post would be an excellent place to transparently and publicly present facts contrary to these assertions.

Until somebody does, readers here can assume that these statements are factually uncontested, and that all the CVS boosters have to persuade is the same maligning of our responsive and responsible Council members :thumbsup: Gurney, Keyes, Jacob and Eder, as well as our fine City Manager Larry McLaughlin, using the same deceptive rhetoric that brought us here in the first place.

On the subject of economic impact: (see this (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?102559-Planning-Director-Kenyon-Webster-s-Troubling-Role-in-the-CVS-Controversy&p=174400#post174400))

[podfish]

You granted Judah's request to be removed - "in fairness to him he requested days ago." What am I missingI was confused by that too. Not that I was so offended - I have a high tolerance for rants by people I don't know - but Barry, do you mean that in effect he'd said "stop me before I kill again" and since you didn't, bad on you??

[Dixon]

Thanks for the update, Barry.


...he listed his real name as "FuckSebastopol Ha" ...
A good hint that he'd turn out to be a troll.
I'm confused about something. I thought that people weren't allowed to join under an obviously fake name (a policy I heartily endorse). Was he just a guest? If so, where was his "real name" listed?

[Barry]

I was confused by that too. Not that I was so offended - I have a high tolerance for rants by people I don't know - but Barry, do you mean that in effect he'd said "stop me before I kill again" and since you didn't, bad on you??
Correct! I know, a bit overly generous... :waccosun:



I'm confused about something. I thought that people weren't allowed to join under an obviously fake name (a policy I heartily endorse). Was he just a guest? If so, where was his "real name" listed?

Once he started posting more "aggressively" I checked out his profile and saw his name. This is the sort of thing I usually follow up on, but I was busy taking care of my mom who is recovering from re-breaking her hip in Orange County. Thus my remiss above for not removing him earlier.

[Glia]

The carhop approach makes a lot of sense. It solves the problem (people with mobility issues getting their prescription medication), does not create more pollution than any other trip to the drug store, and also creates paid work for the person doing the carhopping.

Another possible solution to the problem is requiring CVS to deliver prescriptions to people who cannot make it over to the drugstore or are willing to pay for the convenience. The city could even go so far as to require the use of an all-electric vehicle charged by solar cells to make these deliveries.

Focus on the ends rather than the means!


... For example, seniors could park, call in on those spiffy new cell-phone thingies, and have a clerk take their medicine out to them.

[Nancy M Prebilich]

This is not you being overly generous or remiss because you're busy taking care of your mother.... this is just YOU, a totally bias and inconsistent, bad moderator. For all the crap you've given me, this guy made me look like a frick'n saint. You do yourself even further injustice using your mother as your excuse. I do wish your mother well and hope for a speedy recovery.


Correct! I know, a bit overly generous... :waccosun:

Once he started posting more "aggressively" I checked out his profile and saw his name. This is the sort of thing I usually follow up on, but I was busy taking care of my mom who is recovering from re-breaking her hip in Orange County. Thus my remiss above for not removing him earlier.

[Barry]

This is not you being overly generous or remiss because you're busy taking care of your mother.... this is just YOU, a totally bias and inconsistent, bad moderator. For all the crap you've given me, this guy made me look like a frick'n saint. You do yourself even further injustice using your mother as your excuse. I do wish your mother well and hope for a speedy recovery.

And a Merry Christmas to you, too, Nancy.
I hope you notice that you are still here and he is not, despite many requests to the contrary. :waccosun:
And just for a further bit of "injustice" I'll share that it's my birthday in 44 minutes Big Smile

[Nancy M Prebilich]

I love how you JUST proved my point. (BTW, I can easily counter your "many requests to the contrary" with MANY private messages of support. Am I suppose to be intimidated into submission by such statements?!)

...and although I didn't wish you a Merry Christmas to begin with, I will extend one now to you, in all sincerity... because I can. Happy Holidays Barry, to you and yours!

<br><br>
And a Merry Christmas to you, too, Nancy.
I hope you notice that you are still here and he is not, despite many requests to the contrary. :waccosun:
And just for a further bit of "injustice" I'll share that it's my birthday in 44 minutes Big Smile

[podfish]

anyone who is trying to make this BB all full of sweetness and light fails to fully appreciate our Wacco community, I think... good job, Barry! happy birthday and merry christmas.

[eeeeeeow]

So angry.<br><br>
This is not you being overly generous or remiss because you're busy taking care of your mother.... this is just YOU, a totally bias and inconsistent, bad moderator. For all the crap you've given me, this guy made me look like a frick'n saint. You do yourself even further injustice using your mother as your excuse. I do wish your mother well and hope for a speedy recovery.

[caverly]

"You do yourself even further injustice using your mother as your excuse. "

Have a heart , Nancy !

[Denise Predovich]

​I really appreciated this post from Nancy. Unfortunately our world is an intricate game board with billions of game pieces and players.

I, personally, feel that all the deceit , manipulation, greed and power plays that are ever so used are disgusting. This is the case in big business as well as everyday life.

I was just recently told that to be able to make a situation (that I am trying to handle at this time) , happen or work, that I must play the "game". I reacted very angry , stating that "I do not believe in playing games". " I believe in being real , honest and forthright. " The person telling me to" play the game", then spent the next 20 minutes explaining to me why in order for me to succeed in my task , I had to strategically maneuver my game piece.

Much to my complete dismay, I realized that this statement was true, I always really knew this, but refused to play or comply, but realizing that the importance of my task needed to override my morals and beliefs in this situation.

I have lived in Sebastopol almost 40 years. I grew up with Frizelle Enos, (as a kid I never missed the opportunity to jump on the big scale before excitedly going to see what new chickens and other animals that were new), A&W, (I do not like anything at A&W , but I remember the excitement my sister had when the words "root-beer float" came out of anyone's mouth), the Bowling Alley , which I have missed from day one , the old movie theater, with it's charm and coziness and as much as I know that progress is inevitable, I would of thought or I had hoped that Sebastopol would handle this gently and with care.

Of course one can dream, believe, protest, support or what ever, but as Nancy said, we need to DO..

When, in the short time between fires, I numbly watched our two oldest buildings burn in Sebastopol, I felt a huge loss in my heart as well as the complete disgust of our world.

How blind are people? In the games , selectively.. Does it not, in neon, flash before your eyes the coincidence that both these properties are on the agenda for CVS/Chase?

The game board is and has advanced..
Do you call, bid higher, or fold ?
I still do not believe in playing these games, but if one has to, let them be played with for thought and played well.

:tinker:It was an interesting thing for me that after "growing up" per say , I stopped jumping gleefully onto the scale at Frizelle Enos when shopping there , but that the day before it burned I happened to be going to get chicken food and I without thought jumped on the scale and giggled my way to the popcorn before heading to the chicken feed area.. The thought brings a smile and tears at this moment..


I totally agree with you Photolite! I think the city has seriously screwed themselves by trying to do too little too late. Like I've said, I don't want to see CVS/Chase go into that location (or any big box chain in any downtown core location), but there are rules and procedures and CVS/Chase followed them to get what they wanted, the city manipulated them, the rules and procedures that is, to get what they wanted-after the fact. I think both Patrick Slayter and Kathleen Shafer got a bum wrap because I know they both felt the same way.

I blame our City Attorney for poor council, which I believe was just job security for him; give the "crazies" what they want, get the city in deep, so he has to be the one to get us out, all the while double dipping as City Attorney and City Manager.

I DON'T believe drive-thru's are "necessary," I also think Seb. lost a HUGE opportunity when we lost Amy's Kitchen moving into the Pasta Bela location because of the same ordinance and short sightedness. The citizens of this town need to stop demanding their "wants" and start thinking about how to get their wants through strategic, ECONOMICALLY SUSTAINABLE means. For all the talk of "sustainability" around here- this ain't it because not only are we going to loose, but we'll be in the poor house when we're done AND no decent business will want to deal with Sebastopol.

There's too much "progressive" reaction in Seb., not actual progressive forethought. We should have taken the hit with CVS/Chase, learned our lesson, and implemented policy for the FUTURE. But because we have very few intelligent debates in this town, we're left with the inmates running the asylum.

But now all those who rallied for the memorandum.... open up YOUR pocketbooks! You wanted this because you thought it the healthiest, greenest, most contientious way to live... YOU pay for it!! We'll all be eternally grateful. But that won't happen. Just like the protesting, boycotting, demonstrating in front of the current CVS and Chase aren't happening. If you want to stop them this late in the game you need national attention. You need to promote your Citta Slow city (get THAT International community backing you) and show the world how CVS/Chase is going to ruin that mission because although they followed all the procedures, they don't "CARE." It's about imaging and branding. Stop them by using THEIR OWN GAME! They played ours and won- they GOT APPROVED! Now their just going to take us to the cleaners too.

I want to know what's going on between the city and Frizelle-Enos now. GET IN FRONT OF THAT ONE SEBASTOPOL!! Help FE rebuild without a lot of crap, otherwise we'll "loose" that whole street. Pay attention, cut your losses, and use what you still have to change what you don't like.

[Denise Predovich]

Have you ever looked into Walmart? Do not patronize that place ..except for spray paint..


When CVS first took over from Long's, I went in to get one item because I didn't want to go all the way to Walmart for just the one thing. The CVS price was more than twice the Walmart price, so I never went back. If you're suckered in by their loss-leaders, you'll end up paying way too much for anything else.

[american dream]

Have you ever looked into Walmart? Do not patronize that place ..except for spray paint..

There are good reasons not to use spray paint!

[Sara S]

Yes, I've looked into Walmart, and here's what I think:

The unions badly want the Walmart employees to be unionized, because they are the largest retail business in the country. This would mean millions, if not billions, of dollars for the unions, so the unions periodically make noise about it, and call for strikes against Walmart.

The last time this happened, I went to the Rohnert Park Walmart, where I regularly shop, and there were zero people picketing; I asked a couple of the employees who I see there all the time what they thought about it, and they said that they were perfectly happy with their jobs.

I know there are a lot of people who have not really investigated Walmart, but just have a knee-jerk "politically correct" stance against going there. I look at it like this:

The money I save every year by shopping at Walmart enables me to give a scholarship in memory of my son to a kid graduating from El Molino.


Have you ever looked into Walmart? Do not patronize that place ..except for spray paint..

[eeeeeeow]

Walmart destroys local economy. So save today while we all suffer in the long run. Walmart keeps Americans at the low end of life while maintaining a robust Chinese economy.

[Sara S]

I forgot to say that Walmart was the largest contributor to charitable causes in the country last year, and probably every year. I'd say that the casinos do way more damage to, among other things, the local economy.


Walmart destroys local economy. So save today while we all suffer in the long run. Walmart keeps Americans at the low end of life while maintaining a robust Chinese economy.

[oliviathunderkitty]

I am curious why Rite Aid as an alternative to CVS never comes up in this discussion. Yes, it is a chain but so are all the others mentioned. They seem easy to deal with, their pharmacy is fine, they have the basics one needs from such a store and it's easy an easy walk. I choose locally owned businesses whenever I can and never ever shop at Walmart. Where is the nearest locally owned pharmacy? Forestville, I think . . . I wish one would open in Sebastopol.

[Sara S]

I agree; I still go to Lark Drug in G'ville, and order almost all books from Many Rivers...


I am curious why Rite Aid as an alternative to CVS never comes up in this discussion. Yes, it is a chain but so are all the others mentioned. They seem easy to deal with, their pharmacy is fine, they have the basics one needs from such a store and it's easy an easy walk. I choose locally owned businesses whenever I can where is the nearest locally owned pharmacy? Forestville, I think . . .

[Denise Predovich]

Now CASINO'S is a whole other topic. I can not stand them !

If you ever listen to public radio you would be appalled at the stories told about Walmart.I was !

What I have below is nothing to what I have listened to on public radio. KPFA

<article style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 1em; padding: 0px 0px 1em; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; width: 800px;">Ten Things Wal-Mart Doesn’t Want You To Know

BY JARED CRAM | MAY 9, 2005 AT 5:53 PM
This article is part of our campaign on Progressive Growth. Check out more reporting, research, and actions on Progressive Growth → (https://genprogress.org/issues/progressive-growth/view/)
Living on a college campus brings with it two immutable truths: last call always comes about four hours too early and you never have enough money in your pocket. Given this second fact, I’m sure most of you have ventured into your local Wal-Mart at least once. (Sure, that same Wal-Mart is probably the fifteenth to open in your town and maybe even qualifies for its own zip code at this point.) But the next time you’re tempted by a color television selling for about ten bucks, consider the following ten facts that Wal-Mart doesn’t want you to know about the real costs behind its “everyday low prices.”
1. Wal-Mart regularly violates federal law and flouts international human rights standards.
The right of workers to organize labor unions is protected by the National Labor Relations Act and is also cited as a basic human right by the International Labor Organization. In 2002, 43 distinct charges were filed against Wal-Mart for violations of the National Labor Relations Act and since 1995, 60 complaints have been filed against Wal-Mart with the National Labor Relations Board. These complaints and charges range from illegal firings to threats and intimidations against workers who attempt to exercise their right to organize. In fact, Wal-Mart provided store managers with a “toolbox for remaining union-free” (https://reclaimdemocracy.org/walmart/manuals_internal_documents.php) that includes lists of warning sings that employees may be organizing and a hotline number to summon a corporate anti-union SWAT team.
2. Wal-Mart regularly falls below industry standards for employee pay.
In 2001, the average pay of a Wal-Mart worker was $8.23 per hour, more than two dollars less per hour than the average supermarket employee wage of $10.35 per hour. Furthermore, Wal-Mart associates only average 32 hours a week, causing many employees to be classified as “part-time,” thus restricting their access to health care and other benefits exclusively earmarked for full-timers. In fact, Wal-Mart wages are so low that the average Wal-Mart worker’s annual salary in 2001 was almost $1,000 below the federal poverty line of $14,630 for a family of three.
3. Wal-Mart has made the glass ceiling wider and thicker than ever before.
In 2001, six female employees in California filed suit against Wal-Mart, triggering the largest class action lawsuit in American history involving more than one million current and former female employees. Women in the Wal-Mart “family” make up more than two-thirds of its hourly employees, but hold only one-third of managerial positions, according to a report in the Financial Times. The report also notes that only 15 percent of Wal-Mart store managers are women. Check out Selling Women Short: The Landmark Battle for Workers’ Rights at Wal-Mart (https://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=2-0465023150-3) to learn more.
4. Wal-Mart sometimes doesn’t even pay its low wages at all.
Poverty level wages are bad enough. But Wal-Mart apparently feels that not paying wages at all is even better for its bottom line. As of December 2002, 39 class action lawsuits in 30 states were filed against Wal-Mart claiming tens of millions of dollars in back pay owed to hundreds of thousands employees. These lawsuits included instances of Wal-Mart forcing employees to work through breaks, forcing employees to work off the clock, and even deleting hours from employees’ time sheets without their knowledge. According a former Wal-Mart manager in Alabama and Mississippi, Wal-Mart’s central office threatened to write up managers who didn’t reduce labor costs and this led to managers leaning on assistant managers to falsify time sheets and force employees to work without pay.
5. Wal-Mart routinely makes health care unavailable or unaffordable for its employees.
Wal-Mart’s company health insurance is too expensive or practically impossible to get for many of its employees. Just over 40 percent of Wal-Mart employees have insurance through the company plan, far fewer than the 66 percent that is typical of a firm the size of Wal-Mart. There are a few causes for this: classifying employees as “part-time,” increasing the waiting period for eligibility, and refusing to allow employees to extend coverage to spouses and children. The end result of this is that the public is forced to pick up the slack with our tax dollars. (https://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2005/03/taxpayers-pay-for-wal-marts-low-road.asp) According to a study put out by the Institute for Labor and Employment at the University of California-Berkeley, Wal-Mart employees received $20.5 million in public health care assistance in California alone. And Wal-Mart is more than happy to keep this subsidy gravy train going. Knowing that its employees can’t afford the company health plan, or because they just refuse to make it available to employees, Wal-Mart encourages employees to apply for public assistance programs like Medicaid that are meant to be last resort safety net options, while Wal-Mart continues to bilk American taxpayers for millions in health care costs.
6. Wal-Mart regularly drains public coffers at all levels of government.
The government subsidization of health care for Wal-Mart employees is just the tip of the iceberg. Wal-Mart routinely uses taxpayer money to finance its never-ending corporate growth. A report commissioned by the House Committee on Education and Welfare estimates that a two hundred person Wal-Mart store costs federal taxpayers approximately $420,750 a year, or $2,103 per employee. These costs include:
-$36,000 a year for free and reduced cost school lunches,
-$42,000 for Section 8 housing assistance,
-$125,000 for low-income family tax credits and deductions,
-$100,000 for additional Title I expenses,
-$108,000 for state children’s health insurance expenses, and
-$9,750 for low income energy assistance
State and local governments also lose when Wal-Mart comes to town. A study commissioned by the Los Angeles City Council (https://www.lacity.org/council/cd13/houscommecdev/cd13houscommecdev239629107_04262005.pdf) in 2003 found that Wal-Mart is a net loss for the communities it moves into. An influx of “big box retailers” such as Wal-Mart was estimated to cost an additional $9 million in state health care costs and a loss in pensions and retirement benefits so large that the increase in public assistance necessary to make up the shortfall could not even be covered by increased sales and property taxes.
7. Wal-Mart makes a habit of flouting immigration laws and regulations.
As Wal-Mart continues its race to the bottom in worker compensation, Wal-Mart routinely seeks out the most vulnerable and powerless workers in the American economy: undocumented immigrant workers. On October 23, 2003, federal agents raided 61 stores in 21 states leading to the arrest of 250 janitors who were undocumented workers. Similar raids in 1998 and 2001 led to the arrest of an additional 102 undocumented Wal-Mart employees. In addition, the 2003 raid led to a grand jury being convened to consider federal labor racketeering charges against Wal-Mart executives. These charges were bolstered by wiretapped conversations between Wal-Mart executives and labor contractors that proved Wal-Mart knew its employees were undocumented immigrants.
8. Wal-Mart has played a major role in the outsourcing of American jobs overseas.
Although Wal-Mart has always tried to pass itself off as a company deeply concerned with the well-being of everyday American workers, actions speak louder than words. No longer content to follow its old motto of “Buy American,” Wal-Mart now imports over 50 percent of its merchandise from overseas. In 2003 alone, Wal-Mart purchased one-eighth of all Chinese imports to the United States. And by insisting on the low prices that only sweatshop labor can provide, Wal-Mart has used its tremendous power in the marketplace to bully American firms into moving their production facilities overseas. And once overseas, these firms are required to keep prices low at all costs to please Wal-Mart; even if it requires forcing employees to work in sweatshop conditions for little pay producing products that the factories lose money on.
9. Wal-Mart has consistently discriminated against disabled workers.
Wal-Mart has also been an equal opportunity discriminator by choosing to ignore federal laws banning discrimination against the disabled. Wal-Mart has been the defendant in a number of suits alleging this kind of discrimination and in 2001 alone it was required to pay $6 million to settle 13 such lawsuits. These lawsuits were brought not by individuals, but by the federal government through the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. These settlements also required that Wal-Mart change its hiring practices and provide more training for employees in anti-discrimination laws. Nonetheless, on January 20, 2004, Wal-Mart was again in court after refusing to hire a man in Kansas City because he required a wheelchair.
10. Wal-Mart routinely puts its employees at risk of serious injury or death.
Wal-Mart has also chosen to flout federal worker safety regulations on a regular basis. This is most apparent in its policy to “lock-in” (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/18/national/18WALM.html?ex=1115697600&en=6453099a2c089791&ei=5070&hp) employees overnight. Wal-Mart claims this is to prevent employee theft and unauthorized breaks. In order to enforce these rules, Wal-Mart threatens to fire any workers who use the fire exits and only provides a key to unlock the doors to a manager. On many occasions, workers have been locked in overnight without a manager, forcing employees to wait until morning to receive treatment for injuries such as broken bones and lacerations. And although it has yet to happen at Wal-Mart, American history teaches us what happens when employees are locked in with no way to get out. In 1911, 146 employees of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company, mostly young women, were burned alive behind doors locked by the owners. More recently, in 1991, 25 workers were killed when a fire broke out in a chicken processing plant in North Carolina where the employees were locked in. The reason for the locked doors? Management concerns of employee theft and unauthorized breaks.
In the end, it’s pretty obvious that Wal-Mart is one of the most irresponsible employers in America today. It is hard to narrow its corporate misdeeds to only ten points. This list doesn’t even include Wal-Mart’s penchant for censorship (https://www.dailycardinal.com/news/2004/10/22/Arts/america.Pulled.From.Shelves-777327.shtml) or its damaging environmental record (https://publici.ucimc.org/aug2001/082001_5.htm). As the largest retailer in the United States, Wal-Mart is a giant whose dominance allows the company to set standards in the retail sector and instead of acting as a responsible corporate citizen, it has chosen to lead a race straight to the bottom for American workers. Carry this list with you next time your wallet looks a little empty and you’re deciding where to shop.
Learn More:
Everyday Low Wages: The Hidden Price We All Pay for Wal-Mart (https://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2004/Wal-Mart-Labor-Record16feb04.htm), an indispensable report, published February 16, 2004 by the minority staff of the House Committee on Education and the Workforce. You can download it as a PDF here. (https://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/WALMARTREPORT.pdf) Much of the information in this story can be found in this report.
</article>
I forgot to say that Walmart was the largest contributor to charitable causes in the country last year, and probably every year. I'd say that the casinos do way more damage to, among other things, the local economy.

[rekarp]

Where did you get that "fact" from?

Are you aware that the Walmart family has more wealth than the bottom 40% of the entire country? Do you think that is fair - especially when their employees make so little that they need to be on public assistance. And that the rest of us subsidize their employees?


I forgot to say that Walmart was the largest contributor to charitable causes in the country last year, and probably every year. I'd say that the casinos do way more damage to, among other things, the local economy.

[tommy]

Sara, I found you post somewhat cynical, and missing some key information, regarding Walmart & unions.

- The effort to unionize Walmart is for the benefit of the employees, to increase their wages and benefits.

- Most Walmart employees are part time, therefore not qualifying for benefits, and saving Walmart money in health care etc. Those employees. with marginal part time wages, can then quality for food stamps, and medical care, both subsidized by taxpayers. So it's the taxpayers who ultimately pay, and Walmart saves money, helping it to be one of the most profitable companies, at the expense of you and I.

- Many many studies of our current economy point to growing imbalance between rich and poor, with the top 1% getting richer, with the middle class stagnating or losing economic ground. One reason often cited is the decrease in union representation. In the 60's, about 1/3 of all US workers were unionized, now it's 7%. There are many causes: globalization, export of jobs, anti union representation (loss of right to work laws in Wisconsin under Gov Walker, etc). However unions are one of the very few forces on the side of workers to increase wages and benefits. Unions are not prefect, there's obviously been corruption, infighting, etc.

- As to a few Walmart employees being "perfectly happy with their jobs" ... this proves nothing. They are probably happy, because a part time job at Walmart is better than no job. What do you think they'd say if asked whether they'd prefer a living wage of $15/hr in Sonoma Co, to their current wage of $8.-9/hr? They'd probably be even happier with a higher wage.

- Consider that the money you save by shopping at Walmart is paid for in higher costs for food stamps, medical benefits, loss of housing and education opportunities as the qualities of jobs decline, as Walmart flourishes, as the stock market makes record gains of 20% this year. This is capitalism at work. It's mean. It's uncaring. It'd try to put ugly buildings in the center of our town, regardless of any aesthetic consideration or increased traffic, just so it can make more money. It marginalizes and minimalizes its workers. Unions are one of the few forces in opposition. There are some companies that pay better, with more benefits, such as CostCo, and many California casinos. They simply have a different and imj better business model, of paying more, giving better benefits, with less turnover and greater employee moral.


Yes, I've looked into Walmart, and here's what I think:

The unions badly want the Walmart employees to be unionized, because they are the largest retail business in the country. This would mean millions, if not billions, of dollars for the unions, so the unions periodically make noise about it, and call for strikes against Walmart.

The last time this happened, I went to the Rohnert Park Walmart, where I regularly shop, and there were zero people picketing; I asked a couple of the employees who I see there all the time what they thought about it, and they said that they were perfectly happy with their jobs.

I know there are a lot of people who have not really investigated Walmart, but just have a knee-jerk "politically correct" stance against going there. I look at it like this:

The money I save every year by shopping at Walmart enables me to give a scholarship in memory of my son to a kid graduating from El Molino.

[Tinque]

Sara..I, in no way, meant to lay upon you any guilt trip for your shopping at Walmart. I have a 15 year old son. Just got braces $5,500 and college will be next . I am a single mother and I applaud your thoughtfulness and generosity in trying to save money to send a child to college in memory of your son. That, of course in itself , is a beautiful thing and I in no way want to undermine that.
I only wanted you to be aware of the very horrible things I have been made aware of in the last year or two concerning Walmart. These things are worth knowing and being aware of. Sincerely , :tinker:

[Sara S]

I read this in the newspaper: Of all corporate contributors to charitable causes, Walmart was the leader.


Where did you get that "fact" from?

Are you aware that the Walmart family has more wealth than the bottom 40% of the entire country? Do you think that is fair - especially when their employees make so little that they need to be on public assistance. And that the rest of us subsidize their employees?

[Tinque]

WALMART HISTORY LESSON Anyone ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Walmart

And:

Suing Wal-Mart: Bad business practices lead to litigation (https://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/leading-edge-legal-advice-everyday-matters/2013/jun/2/suing-wal-mart-suing-city-hall-its-almost-impossib/#ixzz2oWiJrM6J)

[gardenmaniac]

​
"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business." ~ Henry Ford

[geomancer]

One would hope they were extremely generous - the Walton family controls as much money as the approximate bottom third of the nation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton_family<http: en.wikipedia.org="" wiki="" walton_family="">

Bernie Saunders says its 40%
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/31/bernie-s/sanders-says-walmart-heirs-own-more-wealth-bottom-/

Richard


I read this in the newspaper: Of all corporate contributors to charitable causes, Walmart was the leader.</http:>

[Rustie]

First we start with the idea that the unionizing efforts at Walmart are baseless and the employees are really quite happy with their zero benefits, low paying, part-time jobs. It's merely the greedy labor unions that see this benevolent family business, which just happens to have one of the worst labor relation records both nationally and internationally, as a cash cow to fill their coffers. Walmart's illegal, aggressive union busting campaign is simply to protect their employees from those self-serving union monsters. Am I following this correctly?

Fast forward to the latest Walmart diatribe – leaders in charitable contributions. Why stop there, why not pillars of a kinder gentler society where multi-billion dollar corporations routinely and generously contribute 2 – 4% of their pre-tax profits to charity. Not to reap the tax benefits while simultaneously influencing public and political policy but to do good for those less fortunate. Please don't bother us with the details surrounding those charitable billions – only that they were disbursed.

If you want to shop at Walmart, just do so – if you feel compelled to justify that choice with misleading examples designed to shine a virtuous light on Walmart perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your choice.



I read this in the newspaper: Of all corporate contributors to charitable causes, Walmart was the leader.

[Larry Robinson]

I would be very cautious about assuming that what you think of as "charitable giving" is what Walmart thinks it is. Walmart's tax deductible contributions are largely to their own Associates In Need Trust (https://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/philanthropy/23261-walmart-seeking-food-donations-for-associates-in-need.html) (to help their underpaid employees in financial distress - which distress is caused by low wages). This is a two-to-one match in exchange for their employees making non-deductible contributions to the corporation's designated political causes, such as supporting Senator Ted Cruz and opposing an increase in the minimum wage. Few Walmart employees earn enough to itemize tax deductions.

In addition, the IRS code allows corporations like Walmart to deduct contributions to "non-profits" which can then make contributions to lobbying groups which support either the ideological or business interests of their donors. This is considered "charitable giving".

More info here: https://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/philanthropy/23261-walmart-seeking-food-donations-for-associates-in-need.html

[David MySky]

Just because someone or some huge evil corporation donates such large amounts doesn't mean that they are donating to socially responsible and truly 'charitable' organizations.

https://www.alternet.org/economy/rich-peoples-idea-charity



I would be very cautious about assuming that what you think of as "charitable giving" is what Walmart thinks it is. Walmart's tax deductible contributions are largely to their own Associates In Need Trust (https://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/philanthropy/23261-walmart-seeking-food-donations-for-associates-in-need.html) (to help their underpaid employees in financial distress - which distress is caused by low wages). This is a two-to-one match in exchange for their employees making non-deductible contributions to the corporation's designated political causes, such as supporting Senator Ted Cruz and opposing an increase in the minimum wage. Few Walmart employees earn enough to itemize tax deductions.

In addition, the IRS code allows corporations like Walmart to deduct contributions to "non-profits" which can then make contributions to lobbying groups which support either the ideological or business interests of their donors. This is considered "charitable giving".

More info here: https://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/philanthropy/23261-walmart-seeking-food-donations-for-associates-in-need.html