Efren Returns! Now what about recall?

[sebastacat]

TO ALL WACCOBBIANS:

I have just read on the Press Democrat online Web Site (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130819/articles/130819481?title=Supervisor-Efren-Carrillo-expected-to-return-Tuesday) that Fifth District Supervisor Efren Carrillo
has returned and will be attending tomorrow's meeting of the Sonoma County Board of Supervisors, which
begins at 8:30 a.m.

But, wait, weren't we told just last week that he would need to continue his rehab and would NOT be
returning for several more weeks?

So as to not be redundant and incur anyone's wrath, I would ask you all to please read my prior post (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?100050-Efren-Carrillo-Cartoon-Caption-Contest!&p=170342#post170342) for my opinion about this latest development.

Yes, the drama continues. In fact, Sebastacat feels that it's probably really just beginning.

[Sara S]

Hmmm, I'll look again, but I didn't see this in the print edition....

[Shepherd]

I hope that those who were able to go to the sups meeting this morning or to hear or see what Efren says, to report back to us, including your own responses. I hope that we can welcome a variety of points of view.

[Sara S]

Yes, the article was in today's print version (wireless!)......and I got the "wireless" part from a cartoon in the Sunday print version by Mike Smith of the Las Vegas Sun.....

[Barry]

Here's the complete statement that Efren read when he re-appeared at the Board of Supervisors meeting this morning:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-08-20_13-16-34.png
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-08-20_13-18-08.png

So it appears he is not going to resign. That is most unfortunate. I expect that an expensive and ugly recall campaign will ensue.

There are two related issues here. First, did Efren commit a crime? That's for the Napa DA and courts to decide. But a separate question is whether is if his constituents want him removed from office.

Regarding the legal issue, I suspect that the trial will involve something less than "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". Efren's got a high powered lawyer, and many powerful friends. Life could easily be a bit less kind for a county employee that does not cooperate with Efren's team, and perhaps much comfier for those who do cooperate.

This process starts with the charges being filed on Aug 30th. No doubt Efren's team has been in touch with the unfortunate woman involved trying to make a settlement so that she either drops charges or doesn't press the felony charges.

So I suspect we really won't ever "find out the facts" of what actually happened in order to asses if a recall is appropriate.

And in some sense it doesn't really matter. Efren is now publicly admitting he is an alcoholic and that that was the source of his misbehavior.

So the question really turns on, is it appropropriate for someone who was an alcoholic, who didn't acknowledge it despite that "his closest friends had for some time 'begged' him to stop drinking", and who seriously misbehaved on at least 2 occasions before acknowledging his problem, to continue to serve and represent our district?

Is it best for the district? Is is best for Efren?

I have serious doubts about both, although I have to say I am not convinced either way.

Are all transgressions committed under the influence to be forgiven? Is alcoholism a "get out of jail free card"? Or "get to keep your seat" card? Is misbehavior by an un-acknowledged alcoholic to be treated differently than someone is not alcoholic but none the less misbehaves while under the influence? Are transgressions by a public official in their personal life grounds to remove an official that have otherwise done a reputable job while on the job? Is being a County Supervisor compatible with beginning the first part of recovery from alcoholism compatible?

While I welcome everybody's opinion here, I am very much interested to hear from people who either supported Efren before these mishaps and now would support a recall, or who did not support Efren but would also not support a recall. If you don't fall into either of these is there reason to believe that your opinion is not just an extension of your prior support or lack thereof?

I've added a new poll to this thread regarding whether he should be recalled.
See this thread on the website (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?100196) to vote.

[Valley Oak]

I was at the Sup's meeting this morning and I asked for Carrillo's resignation. So did several other people including Lisa Maldonado, Colleen Fernald, and others whose names I am not familiar with.

After the public comment finished and while the remaining three Supervisors stayed in their seats for further business or simply recapping, talking casually, and cleaning up, Carrillo quietly got up and left out the back door. This seemed to me to be out of public embarrassment and not being able to stay their chatting it up with his other colleagues.

Colleen Fernald spoke with me after the meeting and she expressed her opinion that Carrillo's resignation would result in the appointment of someone just as bad, if not worse than Carrillo. A recall would be ideal because We The People would be able to appoint the next Sup. That is the way it should be; this is a democracy (or at least it should be a democracy).

That said, I am still torn on this issue. Granted, electing Carrillo's replacement is best but what if that is juxtaposed to ousting Efren? If I had to choose between a delayed and costly fight to recall Carrillo and his staying in office in the meantime versus his immediate resignation, well, quite frankly I prefer the resignation. I don't like the idea of Carrillo hanging onto power and finishing out his term while we desperately try to get together a colossal, lengthy, and costly recall effort.

After this morning's meeting and so many public calls for Carrillo's resignation (and NO ONE spoke in support of Carrillo), it is crystal clear that the great majority of Sonomans want Efren out of power asap.

I want to add that Carrillo's statement, "I take full responsibility for my situation” is a lie. If he honestly did accept responsibility then he would have resigned already. He is a liar and a professional politician and he is not listening to you and me and the public's overwhelming calls for his termination. But Carrillo IS listening to his handlers' advice to hang on to power no matter how difficult things get. This is truly pathetic.

Edward

[dominus]

“There has been much speculation about my continued service on this board and in public life. Amidst this torrent of well-deserved and justified criticism directed toward me, I note that little of this criticism relates to the performance of my official duties,” Carrillo said.

If Efren Carrillo is a bonafide alcoholic, I can't help but wonder about his judgement while he was performing his official duties. Not so fast.

[Sara S]

Thank for this, Edward; I read his carefully crafted statement in the paper. I'm afraid that he'll hang on for as long as possible simply because resigning will end his career, period. He's done, but can't admit it yet......


I was at the Sup's meeting this morning and ...

[Barry]

Here's Efren reading his statement:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_qtu9AT2c5E#t=14

[sebastacat]

I have grave concerns about a couple of things which Barry mentioned in his post above. I will address them as follows:

"Efren is now publicly admitting he is an alcoholic and that that is the source of his misbehavior."

First of all, I find it extremely disturbing that he lied about this when he engaged in his ghetto-like conduct down in San Diego and offered up the lame (but effective) excuse of, I was defending the honor of women from rowdies.
Let's call a spade a spade, folks: HE LIED.

"Life could easily be a bit less kind for a county employee that does not cooperate with Efren's team and perhaps much comfier for those who do cooperate."

I would like to pose to all of you the following question: If this does turn out to be true, is Efren the kind of person whom you want representing you? I've read lots of posts on here which used the word "justice," and if that word means anything at all to those of you who have used it, you will answer the above question with a resounding "No."

Quite frankly, Sebastacat found Efren's prepared statement concocted, calculated and empty. And he has yet to formally apologize to the person in this entire matter that deserves it the most: the victim.

And it appears that he still hasn't learned his lesson, as he would not grant an interview, nor was he any more forthcoming about the details of this incident.

San Diego deja vu?

[meherc]

Learn about alcoholism. It would make your comments more accurate and intelligent.


TO ALL WACCOBBIANS:

I have just read on the Press Democrat online Web Site (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130819/articles/130819481?title=Supervisor-Efren-Carrillo-expected-to-return-Tuesday) that Fifth District Supervisor Efren Carrillo
has returned and will be attending tomorrow's meeting of the Sonoma County Board of Supervisors, which
begins at 8:30 a.m.

But, wait, weren't we told just last week that he would need to continue his rehab and would NOT be
returning for several more weeks?

So as to not be redundant and incur anyone's wrath, I would ask you all to please read my prior post (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?100050-Efren-Carrillo-Cartoon-Caption-Contest!&p=170342#post170342) for my opinion about this latest development.

Yes, the drama continues. In fact, Sebastacat feels that it's probably really just beginning.

[Alexandra]

Regarding Efren's comment that his problems haven't affected his work- that is certainly open to question. I was one of the many parents that called his office, respectfully requesting a meeting regarding the proposed Vineyard Conversion adjacent to five schools on Watertrough. The petition that we forwarded to the Supervisor was signed by literally hundreds of his constituents. All of the parents that called were told that the Supervisor was booked around the clock for many months into the future and didn't have even a 10 minute window to meet with us. It seems extremely difficult to believe that given the severity of his situation-that he has admitted to- that this did not play a part in his day to day management of his responsibilities.


Learn about alcoholism. It would make your comments more accurate and intelligent.

[meherc]

As someone who had been sober for 23 years, I can tell you there are many, many functioning alcoholics. I bet at least 25% of the people in office are alcoholic. Remember all those martini lunches. I did not become any stupider or any smarter because of my alcoholism. IT IS A DISEASE. Like diabetes .Willpower doesn't cure it, just like you can't will away diabetes. I doubt he was guzzling Jack Daniels and playing liars dice in his office all day. My motto when I was drinking was "it seemed like a good idea at the time." But the time is when you are drunk, not working sober during the day.
As to rehab, there are many, many kinds -30, 60, or 90 day inpatient. 5 day a week out patient, 3 day a week out patient, AA. They all work if you're ready. In my experience, people are ready when they scare themselves with something they did while drinking. For me, I was in a blackout and tried to leap over the bar and deck the very large bartender because he wouldn't serve me any more. I was scared to death that I had done that and more so that I didn't remember it.
I am sure this scared the bejesus out of Efren. I have always found him to be a good man, a good supervisor and responsive to his constituents. When I was in trouble, none of the other supervisors would even answer my calls. Efren went out the same day to talk to she who will not be named to try to persuade her to lighten up on us. I see him at almost every nonprofit fundraiser, actually talking to people, asking them what they think. about issues and what are their concerns.
I haven't heard from this woman he harassed but I can tell you that a man tried to break into my house to get me, not possessions, holding a bottle of bourbon, hid in the back yard (while leaving his car in my driveway!). I called the police, they found him, I pressed charges and the DA's office dropped them saying it was only trespassing. Meanwhile, I was arrested in court for BATTERING an officer. I weigh 112 lbs. then they added more charges of resisting arrest. Those charges were not dropped either. All were false but if I were Efren Carillo, I would probably be painted as a cop killer. My point is the legal system is crap. There is no justice and I can't believe we liberal West County people are attacking this man for being drunk and extending that to the rest of his life. What about Teddy Kennedy? Mimi Eisenhower, Betty Ford. You can't possibly denigrate Betty Ford for bad decision making after what she did to bring breast cancer and addiction into the light.. I am actually horrified that this seems to be the main complaint against the man and the reason to boot him out of office. Perhaps an excuse for disagreeing with his stance on some issues. I think we should drive all those people who were obsessed with leaf blowers for so long out of town. .I don't agree with them and maybe some are wearing leather and chains under their clothes. Reason enough to run them out. Leather makes you sweaty and you can't think straight if you're too hot..
Sorry such a long post- anyone who knows me knows I talk a lot.


“There has been much speculation about my continued service on this board and in public life. Amidst this torrent of well-deserved and justified criticism directed toward me, I note that little of this criticism relates to the performance of my official duties,” Carrillo said.

If Efren Carrillo is a bonafide alcoholic, I can't help but wonder about his judgement while he was performing his official duties. Not so fast.


Marilyn

[Shepherd]

I usually do not read the online comments to PD articles, mainly because most of them are written by regulars and not moderated. However, I have been amazed that almost all the responses to Efren Carrillo's situation have been critical of his staying in office, for a variety of reasons. One of the best, in my opinion, was by Santa Rosa City Council person Marsha Vas Dupre, which follows, as well as a couple of responses to her. I respect this elected official for having the courage lacked by other electeds to speak up in a strong voice.


<tbody>
Marsha Vas Dupre (https://www.facebook.com/marshavd) · Top Commenter · The Ohio State University (https://www.facebook.com/osu) Wishing to make an addiction go away does not work. Either Efren or his puppet handlers - or all - have made an unconscionable mistake. This will not only retard his recovery process, but will also render the much-needed service to the Fifth District constituents vulnerable.
 Reply · 32 · Like · 17 hours ago






</tbody>


Sue Whitaker (https://www.facebook.com/sue.whitaker.12382) · 
Follow · Top Commenter Marsha Vas Dupre completely agree with you Marsha. I think Carrillo's handlers & his attorney are dong a disservice to him & to the Fifth District. I have seen other public people tried in the PD & it is not a pretty sight & the outcome is usually a lose/lose.
 Reply · 8 · Like · 14 hours ago







<tbody>
Edward OBrien (https://www.facebook.com/edward.obrien.5011) · Foreman (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Foreman/121214664592687) at Pacific Gas and Electric Company (https://www.facebook.com/pacificgasandelectric)
I agree with Marsha Vas Dupre . I remember a time when standards of morality were much higher than todays standards. The old saying "when the old ways go, you need something of value to replace them with" applies here. I think some of this generation has lost it's moral compass. Of course I think Carrillo should resign or be recalled.

</tbody>

[dominus]

In reading Efren Carrillo's carefully worded statement yesterday and listening to him today, I thought he hit all the right notes of contrition with just the right amount of humility but something felt false about it. Self-reproach isn't sobriety which is a declaration of truth. Granted he must remain silent about his case yet what he did yesterday struck me more as strategic rather than fully appropriate given the circumstances.

[Barry]

The Sonoma West posted an article (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/carrillo-returns-vowing-to-change/article_e3cbbf26-0a99-11e3-a5ab-001a4bcf887a.html) about Efren's statement and included this:


The response to Carrillo’s statement was running about even Tuesday at his office, said Carrillo’s District Director Susan Upchurch. “It’s pretty evenly split between ‘hang in there’ and ‘resign now,’” said Upchurch. “It’s pretty close, maybe a few more are supportive.”

[arthunter]

I think that addiction is very common in this county and everywhere else ... I know that I was addicted to pot for many years and, though it interfered with my private life, I never allowed it to interfere with my career. I ran a couple of very complex businesses, one of them international, and my associates and employees never suspected that I was absolutely loaded when I was not working. For me, it was a combination of stress and quitting nicotine that led to that addiction .... how many other addicts are functioning and productive? ... quite a few I would guess ....

Really, the question is, does this interfere with his work ... honestly, I don't see evidence of that but only he would know for sure ...

[arthunter]

Oh hi Henry ... welcome back!

I think if you read my entire post you might realize that I was talking about addiction, while active, interfering with one's work ... my vision's fine, thanks ...

Regarding the rest ... well that depends on how you view alcoholism ... if you view it as a disease, then he's entitled to time off to cure a disease ... if it were cancer, no one would question it ...


Hmmm, Arthunter, uh, Efren's been MIA while collecting his $3000 for each of the last six weeks he's spent withdrawing from alcohol addiction. During this time, he's done nada concerning the job for which he's been paid $18,000. This does seem evidence of his drinking having 'interfered with his work', and at the tax payers expense. You might want to have your vision checked.

[arthunter]

Oh stop it Henry ... I am not making light of cancer ... that's just ridiculous ... and I will not repeat my point because you didn't get it the first time so you're not going to get it the second time ...

you have insulted me with almost every response that you have written ... sorry, but I'm not playing this game ....


I'm so tired of this. ...

[Barry]

Possibly this is rude of me

It is rude of you, Henry. Your tone-deaf argument in this case is invalidating anything else you might have to say. Quit while you are behind.

[arthunter]

This might be of interest .... I agree with this theory because of my personal experience ... my father did not enjoy alcohol and though I tried to drink with the rest of my friends, my body simply rejected it ... I barely got high and would usually want to sleep halfway through a drink ... I believe that this was a genetic reaction based on body chemistry ... believe me, I tried ... ( I was a very boring date ) ...

https://www.acbr.com/fas/Alcoholism--Defined%20&%20Explained.htm

[Fillie]

Keepin' it real; how many active alcoholic politicians do you think there currently are in office? At least he has begun his recovery, and that may well put him ahead of the whole shebang, with clearheadedness and driven by the principles he now will be following in his ongoing recovery practice...Just sayin...The local alcoholism rate is up to 25% to 30% in his age group. And that doesn't even include the prescription dependent/abusers we have in office. Remember Nancy Reagan and her "Just Say No" speech, where she fell over backwards off a bench, like a Kafka-esque bug, because she was so stoned on benzos?
There are over 300 AA meetings a week in Sonoma County, with an average of about 50 attendees. There are about 100 NA meetings here too. And MA, CA, SA...go figure.:heart:


“There has been much speculation about my continued service on this board and in public life. Amidst this torrent of well-deserved and justified criticism directed toward me, I note that little of this criticism relates to the performance of my official duties,” Carrillo said.

If Efren Carrillo is a bonafide alcoholic, I can't help but wonder about his judgement while he was performing his official duties. Not so fast.

[Barry]

Barry, possibly you subscribe to the 'addiction' defense. It doesn't matter. You'll have to do better than admonish me with supposition. Give me something to chew on, something substantive, something concrete. "Quit while you're behind" is only trite.

Alcoholism is generally accepted as a disease. What disease it's get's compared to is immaterial. The notion is that extends beyond bad judgement or even character flaws. From a employment point of view it is treated like another disease. I think this is appropriate. Admitting it publicly is a huge deal. And like cancer, it's held as an eternal recovery/remission. You are never really cured.

The fact that he has been on paid leave due to alcoholism, as claimed, is really not relevant. The question is, somewhat, did it impair his performance while doing his job? But more importantly, will it impair his performance going forward.

Even if it impaired him 25%, he still put in extra 25% over his required 100% with the hours and energy he brought to his job.

He admitted to being a "binge" drinker, which in my understanding, is episodic, as opposed to daily. I don't have the slightest feeling that somehow I didn't get my money's worth from his work before this episode.

I think we should understand "binge" drinking better is we are to understand Efren's plight. Anybody care to help?

Given that he has publicly admitted he is an alcoholic any future drinking on his part should be considered highly skeptically.

What bugs me a bit [notice how I am deftly changing the topic :wink:] is that when he was arrested (how long after the 911 calls was that?) he did not appear to be drunk. That doesn't add up. Does alcoholism make your stupid even when you are not drunk? I also don't like that the police didn't give him an alcohol test. Sounds fishy. Perhaps it was drugs rather than alcohol? But even it it were, the rehab program probably addressed that as well.

So if he is to be recalled, why is that? Because of past behavior? But that was a disease. Because of mistrust of future behavior? General punishment?

[arthunter]

Honestly, do these links portray a man who is asleep at the job?

https://supervisors.sonoma-county.org/content.aspx?sid=1006&id=1020

https://www.efrencarrillo.com/endorsements.php (https://supervisors.sonoma-county.org/content.aspx?sid=1006&id=1020)

[meherc]

I think that was a brave and honest statement from Efren. I applaud him.I just don't understand your attitudes. If he had AIDS, would that make him unfit for officez? A judge asked me recently over a traffic violation, so you think I should let every PTSD veteran from the Middle East get a lower fine (yes), so do you think I should let someone whose leg had just been blown off get a lower fine? Yes, yes, yes.I am living in a different universe.

[sebastacat]

What bugs me (a lot) is the double standard by which Efren is being judged. If this were a county employee who had exhibited this type of conduct, they would have been summarily dismissed, in the same manner in which Efren himself dismissed Cathy Neville for her misconduct.

But now that Efren has displayed similar reprehensible conduct, he is claiming that he is an alcoholic and that he should be given another shot at the race.

Question: Would a rank-and-file county employee be given "another shot at the race" if he or she engaged in this type of behavior and claimed alcoholism as an excuse? Not only do I seriously doubt it, I don't even think the matter would merit any further discussion or consideration.

Unfortunately, I see some striking similarities between Efren's conduct and Ms. Neville's conduct:
Both engaged in "conduct unbecoming" to the County of Sonoma -- and both ran away.

[Dixon]

Perhaps it was drugs rather than alcohol?
Not to get too tangential, but I urge you (and everyone) to get out of the habit of thinking/talking as if alcohol isn't a drug. That denial/distortion underpins the phony, oppressive "war on drugs", and also allows a lot of people to destroy their lives with alcohol because they think it's just dandy to use because it's "not a drug". It is, in fact, more addictive and more poisonous than most or all of the illegal drugs, and causes more social problems than all of them combined. The only drug that does more damage is tobacco.

[Shepherd]

I echo what Alexandra says below. In my first Wacco post supporting Efren to do the right thing and resign, I explained that my main reason was his failure after many weeks of being called by parents in the apple orchard to vineyard conversion to even talk with them. Whether it was because of his alcoholism, his time in Sacramento, or contributions from the wine industry, or some combination, I do not know. What is clear is that he was not doing the work he was elected to do--represent his constituency.

His ambition to rise in the political world does seem to have impacted his work as 5th Distinct Supervisor, from which he is still absent, even though he attended part of a meeting. I wish him well in his recovery, and wish he would stop damaging the 5th District, its children, families, and others while he tries to salvage his political career. Nearly a thousand people signed the petition that Alexandra speaks of below. We are not happy with his job performance.


Regarding Efren's comment that his problems haven't affected his work- that is certainly open to question. I was one of the many parents that called his office, respectfully requesting a meeting regarding the proposed Vineyard Conversion adjacent to five schools on Watertrough. The petition that we forwarded to the Supervisor was signed by literally hundreds of his constituents. All of the parents that called were told that the Supervisor was booked around the clock for many months into the future and didn't have even a 10 minute window to meet with us. It seems extremely difficult to believe that given the severity of his situation-that he has admitted to- that this did not play a part in his day to day management of his responsibilities.

[Shepherd]

Today's PD editorial is the perspective of their editors, as opposed to the news coverage by the PD reporters, on the Efren Carrillo situation. It is worth reading, in my opinion.

[See it here (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130822/opinion/130829909?title=PD-Editorial:-Carrillo's-next-step-rests-on-Aug.-30-events). - Barry]

[dominus]

There are different degrees of abusing alcohol. This could be the case with Efren Carrillo but for some reason, I don't think so. This is because there are alcoholics that can knock back drink after drink and still don't remove their clothes and try to get into someone's bedroom in the middle of the night. It's possible Efren has a drinking problem and it's also possible he might be a sex addict. If he is the latter, than I can understand the desire to keep it private because the truth of any real addiction is excruciating. Also, most alchies know their alcoholism is socially more sanctioned. In fact, alchies laugh over the fact that it's sometimes considered to be chi-chi. It also can be explained away much more easily than being a sexual addict or even worse, a sexual predator. How exactly could Efren explain the fact that he has predator instincts and hold on to his job? I doubt he'd be able to. Or even say, "I'm Efren Carrillo and I can take whatever I want, any time." Well, that wouldn't go over so well either.

[Fillie]

Some of you seem to be using his addiction-behavior opportunistically to castigate him for the vineyard conversion debacle. Not seeing the connect here. It's like impeaching Roosevelt because he was in a wheelchair because you didn't like his politics. Addiction is not a moral issue, it is a disease that shreds the moral fiber of a person.

The heroic work of recovery is the taking responsibility for this moral decline. Who among us is perfect morally, medically, emotionally, spiritually? What is honorable is the clean up after the wake up. Yet intolerance of immoral behavior can be compassionately held to, or dealt out, but without the venom of judgment, the attitude of controlling punishment. That angry judgment cannot get close to matching the shame of the inner voice of any addict when they are clean.

It's just that shame and judgment don't work as change agents. Compassionate discipline, healthy guilt and guidance do. That is what the disease model provides. And that is what recovery provides too. In the recovery procedure, there is no indulgent babying of insensitive behavior caused by intoxication, just holding oneself to complete accountability from the point of abstinence on.

[sebastacat]

Thank you, Henry, for your oustanding post which puts this terrible situation with which we now find ourselves confronted in perfect perspective.

And thank you for passing on the news at the resignation of the San Diego mayor.

Yes, the people of Sonoma County must send a loud and unmistakably clear message to "Supervisor"
Carrillo that his reprehensible conduct will not be tolerated, whatever the outcome of any criminal-court proceeding may be.

That our southern neighbors had the guts, the grit and the tenacity to make their feelings heard and to drive
their mayor from office for his loathsome conduct is to be commended.

May some of their grit make its way up here so that we, too, may find the will to do the right thing

[Fillie]

That alcoholism impairs behavior and choices and performance, In the 70's and 80's, it was written in to insurance coverage and Employee Assistance Programs at most public and many large companies as policy to treat alcoholism, when they realized it was 1. caring, and 2. very economically expedient and beneficial to intervene with an alcoholic or addicted employee, provide a "last-chance agreement" for sobriety, pay for their treatment and their sick leave, send them to treatment, and give them another chance to keep their job. After treatment, and after the denial system is broken, an alcoholic/addict is then absolutely responsible to the same criteria as any employee. Before denial, because it is a medical disorder, we need to cut slack. and provide help. Otherwise, we continue to dehumanize our culture and lean farther toward uncaring, selfish, intolerant and fascist ideals. Right?


What bugs me (a lot) is the double standard by which Efren is being judged. If this were a county employee who had exhibited this type of conduct, they would have been summarily dismissed, in the same manner in which Efren himself dismissed Cathy Neville for her misconduct.

But now that Efren has displayed similar reprehensible conduct, he is claiming that he is an alcoholic and that he should be given another shot at the race.

Question: Would a rank-and-file county employee be given "another shot at the race" if he or she engaged in this type of behavior and claimed alcoholism as an excuse? Not only do I seriously doubt it, I don't even think the matter would merit any further discussion or consideration.

Unfortunately, I see some striking similarities between Efren's conduct and Ms. Neville's conduct:
Both engaged in "conduct unbecoming" to the County of Sonoma -- and both ran away.

[photolite]

This is the most informed and insightful post regarding alcoholism that I've seen on this or any other related wacco threads. The fact that our "consciousness community" seems so clueless regarding the conventional wisdom on this condition that was understood 30+ years ago is striking, if not a bit shameful.



That alcoholism impairs behavior and choices and performance, In the 70's and 80's, it was written in to insurance coverage and Employee Assistance Programs at most public and many large companies as policy to treat alcoholism, when they realized it was 1. caring, and 2. very economically expedient and beneficial to intervene with an alcoholic or addicted employee, provide a "last-chance agreement" for sobriety, pay for their treatment and their sick leave, send them to treatment, and give them another chance to keep their job. After treatment, and after the denial system is broken, an alcoholic/addict is then absolutely responsible to the same criteria as any employee. Before denial, because it is a medical disorder, we need to cut slack. and provide help. Otherwise, we continue to dehumanize our culture and lean farther toward uncaring, selfish, intolerant and fascist ideals. Right?

[sebastacat]

Fillie:

Thank you for your informative post.

But I would respectfully ask you to please re-read paragraph 3 of my post.

Also, now that Efren has exhibited similar behavior, should the county consider re-opening Cathy Neville's case, since she was dismissed for some of the same reasons?

(Note: I did not and still do not condone Ms. Neville's conduct which she displayed during her drunk-driving arrest by running away.)

[Ice Queen]

OK, so you think you know all there is to know about alcoholism. How well do you know the subject of these attacks and how it affects him? Actually I question your authoritative stance because in the end you have ONE VOTE just like the rest of us. Let's stop trying this man on-line. Vote!


Barry, my lack of empathy for Efren comes from the very personal truth that I spent two decades as a functioning binge drinker, what used to be called a hard drinker, a man who could hold his alcohol. I know the game as well as anyone. ...

[navgal]

Supervisor Carrillo has a much more serious problem than even that posed by alcoholism.

[tomcat]

Those who care about this subject REALLY CARE and post a lot and try to convince others to care as well... But only 23 people on this Board cared enough to even cast a vote in this poll. Good luck with the re-call.

Tom

[riverosprey]

Hi all WaccoBB brothers and sisters :)

I agree with Henry's assessment, not necessarily for the same reasoning :0). I think Efren can quit drinking and improve on the great representation he has provided to the Fifth District for the last five years; as Henry notes any recall would be a very futile negative process that many if not most of us in the District would become the lesser for it.

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)

THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


Barry, SaraS, Edward, Andy, Shephard, Colleen, Dixon and I had a very nice gathering at Hopmonk yesterday for a beer and some great munchies...along with some very civil discourse on the future of mankind.

We should start a monthly WaccoBB Salon at Hopmonk. (Sorry you couldn't make this one Henry :).

Peace to All and thank all those posting for your passion and efforts to improve our community.

L

Tom Lynch


I'll second Tom's astute appraisal. I've had conversations with various people and a couple groups discussing recall initiatives. To a man, those I've spoken with are motivated by narcissism more than concern for the 5th District or the county. To agree (imagine this) with those labeling the effort of some (they'd include myself) as a feeding frenzy, my take is that a majority of the anti-Efren crowd experience their outrage as a personal affront and not a communal concern. Again in agreement with Tom, for this reason I don't see a recall succeeding unless organized and pursued by a union.

And do we really want to set this type of precedent? It's already acknowledged that the unions are capable of seating a politician. Are we wise to cede the entirety of our democratic privilege to a group of 5 individuals in committee by encouraging them to unseat the same. I'd suggest we leave that genie in the bottle, and for a very long time.

Most really don't care Tom. This explains why we end in being saddled with the Carrillos, the Browns, the Smiths and the Reillys. We vote ourselves their enrichment and at our expense. What course of action do you think they're going to take? They've nothing to lose and everything to gain. County Supervisor is the best job any of them will ever have and they get to set their own pay package. They'd be fools not to take advantage of the situation. We're fools for offering them the opportunity.

[Valley Oak]

I posted a thread on last night's enjoyable get together in the "Community" section of Wacco:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?100293-Wacco-social-gathering-at-Hopmonk-was-fun!&p=170579#post170579

Thank you to everyone who was there; fun was had by all.

Edward



Hi all WaccoBB brothers and sisters :)

...Barry, SaraS, Edward, Andy, Shephard, Colleen, Dixon and I had a very nice gathering at Hopmonk yesterday for a beer and some great munchies...along with some very civil discourse on the future of mankind.

We should start a monthly WaccoBB Salon at Hopmonk. (Sorry you couldn't make this one Henry :).

Peace to All and thank all those posting for your passion and efforts to improve our community.

L

Tom Lynch

[Damien]

Yes

[danargraves]

I am amazed that yet again the overt sexual harassment issue is being ignored by diverting attention to an alcoholic's behavior instead of despicable behavior towards women. He should be removed immediately for that reason alone until he has gone through a lot of the awakening of his heart processes and that is done over a long period of time not just a short time in a rehab clinic.

That being said he should have been removed long ago for his vote on the Dutra asphalt plant due to his own personal views with industry backing his political career. It was not supporting the public's opinion. He said industrial plants were not that bad well I differ. I was raised in the "flats" of Cleveland and I have seen the results of long term contamination which included an asphalt plant among the steel mills.

[handy]

I agree. He misrepresented himself to us. He attained his position through fraud.
His behavior is not worthy of his constituents.
While he's getting himself straightened out, he is precisely not representing us.
Let him go fix himself on his own dime and his own time.
After, and ONLY after, we, his constituents, have observed an actual change in his behavior over time, may he have the opportunity to attempt to convince us again of his value and or trustworthiness.
In the mean time, we, each and every one of us, have better things to do with our lives than to get caught up in some other fool's personal soap opera/reality show.

Just my .00015 BtC worth...


I am amazed that yet again the overt sexual harassment issue is being ignored by diverting attention to an alcoholic's behavior instead of despicable behavior towards women. He should be removed immediately for that reason alone until he has gone through a lot of the awakening of his heart processes and that is done over a long period of time not just a short time in a rehab clinic.

[Alex]

<br><br>
I am amazed that yet again the overt sexual harassment issue is being ignored by diverting attention to an alcoholic's behavior instead of despicable behavior......

Thank you very much for highlighting this aspect, it's exactly the even bigger elephant in the room than alcoholism being ignored by supporters, and historically implies something much, much bigger than despicable.....

Our superintendent
TRIED__TO__BREAK__INTO__ A__WOMAN'S__BEDROOM__AT__3:40AM__IN__HIS__UNDERWEAR.

This is a fact with no possible excusable excuse. I am with approx. 95% of PD posters that we already know enough and deserve much better and will be complacent idiots shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't admit exactly what the ramifications of this behavior really represents.

Our forum, however, is full of people willing to ignore, minimize and excuse this behavior, actually suggesting we have some moral responsibility to rehabilitate him including ignoring all psychological data of how long it typically takes and that sexual predation really never gets ‘cured’. I'm sure glad we're not paying all the predatory alcoholics in Sonoma county $12k/mo while they rehab.

We also have people here going so far as proposing movie script level excuses that we should make sure aren't his good reason before taking any action, like he was set up. He was set up to lose his free will?? Wow. Then his free will can be manipulated while sitting at his superintendent’s seat making decisions too.

Here’s my fantasy movie script:
After years of hidden alcoholism, one night a Santa Rosa Superintendent could no longer suppress the sexual predator part of his nature and exhibited extremely dangerous, threatening behavior far more extreme and revealing than any of the 1000's of other garden variety alcoholics in any the 300 weekly Sonoma County AA meetings ever cross the line into.

When his computer was confiscated as is standard procedure in all cases involving sexual threat, Carrillo was immediately fired when sick and illicit predatory material was discovered, which is the case 100% of the time among sexual predators/deviants. The Santa Rosa citizens hope that finally this accurate and just indictment and conviction of Efren Carrillo will set a new standard of elected officials being held just as accountable as any street person for the same behavior and not get a free pass from cohorts, law enforcement insiders or corporate money paying any decision makers off.

The point: We already know he was not given a drug/alcohol test, and if his computer was not confiscated too it's a big gigantic free pass already.. Would this have been the case with any average Joe? NO.

[sebastacat]

Thank you so much, Alexia, for your spot-on post.

I will have more to say in the coming days about this matter.

But for now, I will say this: I just hope and pray that the victim has not yet and does not decide to in the future pay
WACCO a visit, for I think she is going to feel a great sense of sadness, sickness and depression when she sees the many, many lame excuses which have been offered up by many posters on this forum in an effort to explain and spin away Efren's inexcusable behavior.

Thankfully, several people like you, me and others have not forgotten the one person in this entire mess who was most profoundly affected and, I'm sure, continues to be affected by Efren's conduct and actions on July 13th:

THE VICTIM.

To those of you who continue down the yellow brick road of excuse-making, you, of course, are free to continue to do so. But in Sebastacat's opinion, you are continuing to enable him in the commitment of future reprehensible conduct and poor decision-making. And that's exactly why he now finds himself embroiled in this situation and, for the first time in his life, facing the prospect of being charged with a felony. (Second if you count the initial felonious assault arrest stemming from the San Diego incident.)

And I will say it once again: You are doing Efren no favors by continuing to do so.

Perhaps it's time for the enabling to stop and for honest words to be spoken.

[Barry]

I have to take issue with:


the one person in this entire mess who was most profoundly affected and, I'm sure, continues to be affected by Efren's conduct and actions on July 13th:

THE VICTIM.

Surely she has every right to be safe in her home and not be subjected to an intrusion of any kind, and no doubt it was very scary and traumatic, and is most probably is still being affected by the event and certainly by all the media and public interest and upcoming court date.

However, IMO, Efren has been affected yet more. I have no doubt that he been "most profoundly affected" by his actions both up until now (media coverage, shame, rehab, moving, future in doubt, etc) and will continue to be for quite some time. And he deserves it!


To those of you who continue down the yellow brick road of excuse-making, you, of course, are free to continue to do so. But in Sebastacat's opinion, you are continuing to enable him in the commitment of future reprehensible conduct and poor decision-making.

There's no excuse to be made. There's an illness with possible treatment. I agree that Efren's future ability and trustworthiness is in doubt, but it's quite possible he will have received his huge wake-up call and take appropriate action.

I'd still like to see him resign if no other reason that I think this scandal will limit his effectiveness and quash the ugly debate about whether he should continue to serve, not to mention providing a better situation for his recovery. If he continues to serve his policy critics will be yet fiercer (as we have seen here).

Should he not resign, I do not think a recall attempt should be made for the simple reason that it won't succeed while being expensive and ugly, and our efforts are best placed elsewhere.

Should he stay in office I would support a recall if he returns to drinking, even casually, or has any other lapse in judgment. He'll face the voters again in 3 years who can decide if he's worthy of continued public service, based on his record after this unfortunate event.

My hope is that he will plead guilty to the misdemeanor of prowling (https://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/15/2/s647) and that the felony burglary charges (https://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=458-464) be dropped (he didn't "enter") so that he, the victim and the county can move forward.

[sebastacat]

I disagree.

[sebastacat]

(edited) Sebastacat posted a quote from a legal site regarding what is considered "entering". I have move his post along with my comments to the basis of a new thread, Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment? (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?100375-Did-Efren-commit-Burglary-What-about-punishment&p=170717#post170717)

We can continue to use this thread to discuss the recall question.

Barry

[Valley Oak]

It should be interesting to see if Efren's tearing the window screen open (but not sticking his hand through the window (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?100375-Did-Efren-commit-Burglary-What-about-punishment&p=170717#post170717)) will actually count as burglary.

If Carrillo had only run around in the middle of the night, drunk or/and on other drugs, almost completely naked, as if he were a werewolf, then I would find this scandal substantially less egregious.

But Carrillo's conduct strongly implies the actions of a rapist trying to break into a single woman's home, where she lives alone; this is by far the most disturbing part and it is the most important reason Carrillo should resign.

If the local unions go ahead with a recall effort (to begin in a couple of weeks on September 15), then I will join such an effort. I will physically go down to their HQ and ask what I can do to get this individual out of office.

If so, then I beseech the rest of this community to join me in that effort.

Thank you,

Edward


From the Web site of the Law Offices of Hinkle, Jachimowicz, Pointer & Emanuel comes the followinginformation with respect to the definition of the crime of "Burglary":...

[dominus]

However, IMO, Efren has been affected yet more. I have no doubt that he been "most profoundly affected" by his actions both up until now (media coverage, shame, rehab, moving, future in doubt, etc) and will continue to be for quite some time. And he deserves it!
It certainly would appear that Efren has been impacted more but does anyone really know? Many women feel vulnerable for their physical safety and Efren must have certainly activated that concern when the victim phoned the police twice. So while he stands to lose a great deal, the female victim has lost a sense of feeling safe. A personal, inner experience of safety vs. reputation and livelihood. I think the experience of safety might be harder to get back.

[sebastacat]

With regard to Post Number 48, Sebastacat needs to make one thing very clear:

The legal site to which I referred did NOT call into question whether Efren entered, as the post seems to suggest.
The site merely discusses and explains the elements of the crime of "burglary."

That site to which I made reference has not taken nor has it espoused ANY position on the matter of Efren's charges.

[Thanks for the correction, Sebastacat. I have edited my post accordingly. -Barry]

[Dixon]

...Carrillo was immediately fired when sick and illicit predatory material was discovered, which is the case 100% of the time among sexual predators/deviants.
This connection of "sick and illicit predatory material" to sexual predation is news to me. I'm not even sure what you mean by the term "sick and illicit predatory material". Could you clarify, please?

[meherc]

I completely disagree. I think most companies, particularly the county, send their employees to rehab regularly. Maybe you are seeing a nice happy world where people don't get treated unfairly, cops don't lie, alcoholism is not a disease.You sound just like the cops at the county jail who don't "believe" in mental illness and think sick people are trying to just get off. Or where honest people don't get arrested for retribution, a sarcastic remark or a look the cops interpret as nasty. There is an article in Slate about how many people are arrested on bogus misdemeanor charges and just plead no contest because they don't want to spend the time to fight it. Aren' people in our system supposed to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. Doesn't sound like that's what's happening around here.

And by the way, if a county employee exhibited this behavior, no one would give a damn. He wouldn't be in the paper and vilified so which double standard are we talking about?


What bugs me (a lot) is the double standard by which Efren is being judged. If this were a county employee who had exhibited this type of conduct, they would have been summarily dismissed, in the same manner in which Efren himself dismissed Cathy Neville for her misconduct.

But now that Efren has displayed similar reprehensible conduct, he is claiming that he is an alcoholic and that he should be given another shot at the race.

Question: Would a rank-and-file county employee be given "another shot at the race" if he or she engaged in this type of behavior and claimed alcoholism as an excuse? Not only do I seriously doubt it, I don't even think the matter would merit any further discussion or consideration.

Unfortunately, I see some striking similarities between Efren's conduct and Ms. Neville's conduct:
Both engaged in "conduct unbecoming" to the County of Sonoma -- and both ran away.

[sebastacat]

"Unfortunately, if a county employee exhibited similar behavior, no one would give a damn"????

Where have you been, Meherc? Are you not aware of what happed to Ms. Cathy Neville a few years back and how Mr. Carrillo cited the circumstances surrounding her drunk driving and the fact that she ran away as reasons for terminating her in the formal termination letter that he signed?

Please, get your facts straight before attacking me in the future.

And yes, Ms. Neville was a county employee, and I did NOT codone her conduct.

And, yes, I did -- and do -- give a damn.

[I couldn't find any news sources that reported Cathy Neville and drunk driving.
I did find this account (https://www.petaluma360.com/article/20110505/COMMUNITY/110509736)of her being fired.

Barry]

[Alex]

<br><br>
This connection of "sick and illicit predatory material" to sexual predation is news to me. I'm not even sure what you mean by the term "sick and illicit predatory material". Could you clarify, please?

I was couching words. I have personal experience having my eyes opened to how unaware I was about predators and law enforcement's perspective on what is a surefire indication of what to them. One, that when finding or suspecting a crime of a sexual nature they have great interest in confiscating the computer. Two, it's because 100% of the time they find perverse, creepy and frequently scummy and/or illegal underage crap on the computers of anyone having committed a sexual crime. Three, that a predator is frequently your educated, well dressed, well-spoken next door neighbor who you wouldn't want to be representing your community interests and well-being if you could see the very commonly found, what I termed 'illicit and predatory material' on his computer.

Basically, when it finally bursts the seams like in Efren's case, it's a huge red flag indicator that there's a lot more going on for a long time before the obsessions could no longer be contained.

[sebastacat]

Barry: Thanks for providing the info above.

Ms. Neville's drunk-driving arrest caused quite a stir at the time that it occurred.
I'm surprised that the Press Democrat does not have a story in their archives about it, as
they reported on it extensively.

There are some links to the letter that Efren Carrillo, as Chairman of the Board of the Sonoma County Supervisors at the time of her arrest, wrote to her in the "Comments" section of the latest story regarding Efren's arrest.

When I have a bit more time, I'll try to find some more info for you. But thanks for your efforts in this respect thus far.

Sebastacat

[Barry]

Efren was charged with the misdemeanor of "peeking" today. I have started a new thread called "Efren charged with "misdemeanor peeking" (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?101692-Efren-charged-with-quot-misdemeanor-peeking-quot&p=172920#post172920) in General Community to discuss this. I am closing this thread.