[Zeno Swijtink]

Barry wrote:

I can help but notice that you, along with many other of our more strident posters, do not supply you real names on your profile. Are you not willing to be accountable for your posts?

Dear Barry,

When will you end anonymity on WaccoBB, not just in profile, but also in screen name? As you grant here, it's the source and sign of unaccountability.

We discussed this today at SSU with Andrew Keen, author of "The Cult of the Amateur: How Today's Internet is Killing Our Culture."

http://www.lessig.org/blog/2007/05/k...e_amateur.html

Anonymity, whether on Wacco or Wikipedia, we agreed, has led to a dumbing down of our culture, an atmosphere where people - unconcerned about their reputation - just spin a tale and try to get away with it.

Anonymity, I would argue, stands in the way of WaccoBB becoming a real community.

Hope you are well,

Zeno Swijtink

[smunsch]

So there I was, on my laptop, connected to the internet via a 2.437 GHz signal (802.11g channel 6), browsing my various news feeds. And look what has happened: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.../03/26/0118237
We got slashdotted! Currently I am on spring break in Arizona, where I have been online every night until maybe 1 AM, talking to friends back at home (in Sebastopol) over Wi-Fi. No pain in my membrane, thank you. I just noticed what was going on in my precious town... why did I have to be gone?
Anyway, I think this is pretty much foolish. And the internet seems to agree, read some of the compliments (heh) on the slashdot page. I am a student at the Junior College at the moment, but when I was a student at Analy High, I would have been very happy to be able to go downtown and get online without feeling like I was stealing someone else's service that they were paying for.
I can't barely afford the low-tier DSL AT&T provides, let alone a T3 line... I am going for a Computer Science major. If there was high speed internet provided for free in town, I could drop my DSL and not have to stay at the JC to do work. I could downtown (patronizing local shops!) and do my homework, with my friends.
More people will not be coming to Sebastopol because there is no free internet, no Wi-Fi APs. Sebastopol would be better supported were it to provide that service.

Wishing I was there,
Shelby Munsch

[PeriodThree]

This is an hilarious post...Zeno posts about Keen, with evident sincerity, and refers us to Lawrence Lessig's review.

But only by going to the review do we release that Lessig's praise of Keen is for what a great self satarist he is...Keen's book is so incredibly awful, so riddled with error, that it can only be that bad if Keen had made an effort at self satire in order to demonstrate his point that amateurs are ruining our discourse.

Zeno's construction then brings us face to face with both aspects of the work: earnest criticism of the amateur by keen, over the top snark from one of the more significant cultural figures on the side of the amateur, and Zeno with just enough ambiguity in his message that he could be riding on either or both sides.

Utterly brilliant.

Zeno Swijtink wrote:

Dear Barry,


We discussed this today at SSU with Andrew Keen, author of "The Cult of the Amateur: How Today's Internet is Killing Our Culture."

http://www.lessig.org/blog/2007/05/k...e_amateur.html

[smithers]

The irony of this whole thing is that, if I were one of the many residents/businesses with a private/secure hotspot and there was a reliable free hotspot available, I'd gladly give up paying for my private one and shut it down. I'm sure many others would follow suit, the net result being fewer EMF sources from hotspots. The only reason I have secured a hotspot myself is not concern over people hacking into my computer. I have a firewall and vpn, which is satisfactory for most usage. My main reason for locking up access to my hotspot was to prevent people using my router to access kiddie porn, having the feds track it to my router, and focusing their wrath on me. If the router isn't mine, ala the free Sonic hotspot, it isn't my worry. Unfortunately, I can't say it would be reliable.

I have been a very satisfied Sonic customer for about 10 years. The downtown Santa Rosa hotspot is horrid. Something happened in the last 6 months and it has gone downhill. I can unfailingly use my laptop at all the open hotspots I know about, but suddenly the downtown one seems to have degraded. I know how to use my computer. It is not a problem with my laptop, firewall, etc. I've talked to others and they agree. I've stood 15 feet away from one of the repeaters/routers/whatever and not been able to get a reliable signal.

John S

P.S., Everyone, please see my job wanted and housing wanted posts and email me with leads.

Using European opinions about aNyThInG these days is, IMO, openly useless. Europe is nothing more but a snapshot of where America is headed if we stay on the path some Americans would like. Europe has been taken over already by the same folks who established the World Bank, who would love to take away all borders in North America and unify the world under one government. Why are they trying to do this? So THEY can rule the world. It's not about peace. It's not about unity of Mankind. It's about POWER and GREED. Europeans have been faithfully won over by a) removing God and creating a Godless society (does anyone remember the Soviet Union, for goodness sake?), encouraging people to be self-focused, self-centered and disconnected from one another, and now they are part of "The European Union". Next? North America, Africa and eventually Asia, if they can get the Communists baffled by their b.s., like they did to Europeans.

European research is jaded and biased and useless. They've bought into the "Global Warming" Chicken Little b.s., as well. The Earth has warmed and cooled since the beginning of time. Yes, we're poluting the air and the water, but we're not responsible for global warming, anymore than Cavemen were responsible for the Ice Age. It's easy to sell b.s. to people who are afraid, and no one is more afraid than Godless folks.

Sasu wrote:

Statement of support from the European Environmental Agency:
Radiation risk from everyday devices assessed
17 Sep 2007 http://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/...vices-assessed

A new report raising concerns about the effects of electromagnetic fields (EMF) on human health calls for tougher safety standards to regulate radiation from mobile phones, power lines and many other sources of exposure in daily life. The "BioInitiative Report: A Rationale for a Biologically-Based Public Exposure Standard for Electromagnetic Fields (ELF and RF) was compiled by the BioInitiative Working Group, an international group of scientists, researchers and public health policy professionals. The EEA has contributed to this new report with a chapter drawn from the EEA study, "Late lessons from early warnings: the precautionary principle 1896-2000"
...

[Sciguy]

To Donc1955:

How refreshing to know that the twelfth century is still with us. Those were the days when pesky scientists didn't poke their noses into our affairs because the church would burn anyone who knew anything at the stake. I had always suspected time machines were real and now I know it, since we have a living example.

You're right, the earth has always warmed and cooled. So what if it's warming now. I can't wait to be able to saddle up a Diplodoccus again. And watch those gladiator Tyrannosauruses battle it out in the ampitheater. Hi ho Silver, away!

Sciguy

donc1955 wrote:

Using European opinions about aNyThInG these days is, IMO, openly useless. Europe is nothing more but a snapshot of where America is headed if we stay on the path some Americans would like. Europe has been taken over already by the same folks who established the World Bank, who would love to take away all borders in North America and unify the world under one government. Why are they trying to do this? So THEY can rule the world. It's not about peace. It's not about unity of Mankind. It's about POWER and GREED. Europeans have been faithfully won over by a) removing God and creating a Godless society (does anyone remember the Soviet Union, for goodness sake?), encouraging people to be self-focused, self-centered and disconnected from one another, and now they are part of "The European Union". Next? North America, Africa and eventually Asia, if they can get the Communists baffled by their b.s., like they did to Europeans.

European research is jaded and biased and useless. They've bought into the "Global Warming" Chicken Little b.s., as well. The Earth has warmed and cooled since the beginning of time. Yes, we're poluting the air and the water, but we're not responsible for global warming, anymore than Cavemen were responsible for the Ice Age. It's easy to sell b.s. to people who are afraid, and no one is more afraid than Godless folks.

Gosh, Paul, I'm surprised at how openly sarcastic and harsh you're being to me in response to my thoughts. I seem to recall Barry saying something about being respectful here. Perhaps Barry wasn't serious? You've been here longer than I, so I trust that you're familiar with what is acceptable and what is not here. I just thought rudeness wasn't allowed...but maybe it's just that anyone in the Conservative camp can't be rude, but you can? I'm just looking for clarification, brother. I'm sure it'll all become clear to me soon.

Sciguy wrote:

To Donc1955:

How refreshing to know that the twelfth century is still with us. Those were the days when pesky scientists didn't poke their noses into our affairs because the church would burn anyone who knew anything at the stake. I had always suspected time machines were real and now I know it, since we have a living example.

You're right, the earth has always warmed and cooled. So what if it's warming now. I can't wait to be able to saddle up a Diplodoccus again. And watch those gladiator Tyrannosauruses battle it out in the ampitheater. Hi ho Silver, away!

Sciguy

[Barry]

donc1955 wrote:

Gosh, Paul, I'm surprised at how openly sarcastic and harsh you're being to me in response to my thoughts. I seem to recall Barry saying something about being respectful here. Perhaps Barry wasn't serious? You've been here longer than I, so I trust that you're familiar with what is acceptable and what is not here. I just thought rudeness wasn't allowed...but maybe it's just that anyone in the Conservative camp can't be rude, but you can? I'm just looking for clarification, brother. I'm sure it'll all become clear to me soon.

Sarcastic, yes, but I didn't find it harsh or rude. You're way out on a limb, Don. Besides that every American scientific study validates the notion of global warming being caused by humans, even the Bush administration accepts it! I thought Paul's playful response was just fine.

Thanks for the clarification, Barry. I'm just learning about what find acceptable and what you don't. I've been surprised at some of the acid comments back and forth (I'm not calling Paul's comments acid), but have been pleased that you allow an open exchange of opinions here. I'm sure I'll get a feels for what's acceptable and what's not over time.

Barry wrote:

Sarcastic, yes, but I didn't find it harsh or rude. You're way out on a limb, Don. Besides that every American scientific study validates the notion of global warming being caused by humans, even the Bush administration accepts it! I thought Paul's playful response was just fine.

[Sasu]

Dane,

According to the Nov 20 minutes of the Sebastopol council meeting you said that wi-fi RF was three times less than a cell phone. (One hour on wi-fi= 20 minutes on a cell)

When I asked you what the RF emissions from the wi-fi would be you said they would be 80uW/cm2 beneath a repeater to 10uW/cm2 at 100 meters away. The current RF on my street is .03uW/cm2 and in my home .006uW/cm2. Your figures would indicate a tremendous increase in Rf to our neighborhood. Were your figures inaccurate?

As to the mentinon of pharmaceuticals in the water the presenter said that the amounts were small for people but perhaps not so small for aquatic life. Is it possible the same is true for radiation in the environment?

I hope you will visit the O'Reilly blog where there is more discussion.

danejasper wrote:

Somewhere I saw the statistic that sitting in a Wi-Fi hotspot for a full year was an equivalent RF exposure to 20 minutes on a cell phone.

But now I can't find the study or article this was in. Anyone run into that and have a citation?

(Reminds me of last week's city council meeting. Linda Kelly asked about prescription drugs affect on the water system, and the staff member said yes, there are measurable amounts of Tylenol, but you'd have to drink some crazy amount of water for many, many years in order to get one tablet/dose worth of Tylenol.)

-Dane

[phooph]

What happened to the Sonic hotspots in Santa Rosa is that Sonic downgraded the signal to all of them and made them weaker which is why my friend who lives less than a block from a Sonic hotspot gets a stronger signal from the library two blocks away.

Ruth

[Sciguy]

Folks:
Today Layna Berman on KPFA quoted a report by Andrew Goldsworthy of Imperial College supporting the possible effect of EMF on bodies, nerves and brains. The paper is available here: http://www.hese-project.org/hese-uk/...weak_em_07.pdf

I took a look at it and it seems like a genuine scientific paper. It provides no conclusions but it does attempt to provide a somewhat plausible mechanism for the mechanism by which EMF could affect bodies, thru an effect on calcium ions.

I thought it suffered from a lack of quantitative data on the binding energy of calcium ions in membranes to compare to the energy that a weak EMF could apply to a lone calcium ion. But I guess that could come later. So it seems to me that the postulated mechanism has a gigantic hole in it, with the potential for rendering it moot, but I don't see anything silly or biased about it, unlike some of the other "reports" I have read about the effects of wireless on people quoted by Sasu and the other opponents of wireless. I reviewed one of those in a previous post.

Paul

PeriodThree wrote:

To elaborate on this point, I strongly believe that knowingly using flawed evidence to make a point, as Sasu has done in her debates, is a tactic which is deeply destructive of community.

(I am not saying all of her evidence is flawed. I personally think most of it probably is flawed, but I have been working to be very careful to only address those points where she has made glaringly false factual assertions).

I believe that not correcting your errors, when they have been pointed out to you, reflects a willfulness. We all make mistakes in our discussions. To not acknowledge our factual errors is the same is to tell a deliberate lie.

To repeat those false statements is of course a deliberate, and I believe malicious, lie.

I consider using lies to further your own ends to be a deeply immoral action which is also destructive of community and humanity.

I think that deliberately mixing the sources of factual information, as the BioInitiative Report does, in order to sow confusion, is deeply troubling, but that gets into complicated questions like 'how much is too much?' And so in spite of being deeply bothered by the language of the BioInitiative Report I am unprepared to go there yet.

[Braggi]

Sasu wrote:

Dane,

Can you prove your wireless networks are safe?
"More research is needed" is not proof.
...

Sandi, can you prove driving a car is safe to others in the community? I believe I can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you driving a car is potentially dangerous to me. Therefore, I would appreciate it if you voluntarily turned in your license and never drove again.

Perhaps everyone else will do that too, and then I will feel more safe.

-Jeff

[PeriodThree]

Jeff,

I am with you. The requirement that something be proven safe is a basically impossible requirement. But then, I personally believe that the point of the anti-technology movement has little to do with safety, and everything to do with a deep anti-technology world view.

I wish that people like Sasu would simply and honestly own that they are against basically all of modern life.

I can't particularly condemn that world view from first principles. One's spiritual development doesn't seem to correlate with use of technology, and a case can certainly be made for the existential glory of subsistence living, but at a personal level I have a deep and fundamentally different world view.

Rich

Braggi wrote:

Sandi, can you prove driving a car is safe to others in the community? I believe I can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you driving a car is potentially dangerous to me. Therefore, I would appreciate it if you voluntarily turned in your license and never drove again.

Perhaps everyone else will do that too, and then I will feel more safe.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

PeriodThree wrote:

Jeff,

I am with you. The requirement that something be proven safe is a basically impossible requirement. But then, I personally believe that the point of the anti-technology movement has little to do with safety, and everything to do with a deep anti-technology world view.

I wish that people like Sasu would simply and honestly own that they are against basically all of modern life.

I can't particularly condemn that world view from first principles. One's spiritual development doesn't seem to correlate with use of technology, and a case can certainly be made for the existential glory of subsistence living, but at a personal level I have a deep and fundamentally different world view.

Rich

If it were that simple. The evidence about electromagnetic effects on living creatures is still being gathered by serious scientists.

[Braggi]

PeriodThree wrote:

..I wish that people like Sasu would simply and honestly own that they are against basically all of modern life.
...

I don't think Sasu is against modernity. I think she'd like her modernity in controlled doses, preferably under her control. Although understandable, such a view is completely impractical if not impossible given the realities of today. She could live in a lead bomb shelter, but it wouldn't be much fun.

We all need to observe, if we can, the risk benefit ratio of our modern conveniences. Some, are only for the direct benefit of others, not me. Women's rest rooms, for instance. But it's not my place to make those rest rooms unavailable to others. Even if they're not for me, the cost benefit ratio, to me, given the convenience for my wife and daughter, reaches the point where I'm even willing to help finance the building of those rest rooms, just as I would be willing to pay a few bucks toward the establishment of the Sebastopol wifi, even though I don't live in Sebastopol. I just think it's too cool.

Maybe we should take up a collection. Now that would be a poll. Vote with your dollars.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Of course, Zeno, and it will ever be thus. However, the example you show here is ludicrous. Those men, while putting themselves at great danger, no doubt, are working with the one substance that has saved more human lives on planet Earth than any other. And Rachael Carson was mostly wrong about it. (The effect on egg shells, for instance.)

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink wrote:

If it were that simple. The evidence about electromagnetic effects on living creatures is still being gathered by serious scientists.

[PeriodThree]

Zeno Swijtink wrote:

If it were that simple. The evidence about electromagnetic effects on living creatures is still being gathered by serious scientists.

I would accept that view, except that so much of what Sasu posted was literally just not true. Some of what she posted was clearly knowing lies, other parts may have come from simple ignorance, but it was the form of malicious ignorance in which she refused to correct statements which were clearly factually wrong.

Basically nothing which Sasu posted was serious science done by serious scientists. It was intellectual crap. There may be real science to be done on the 'electromagnetic effects on living creatures,' but the WiFi opponents have proven themselves to be active enemies of reason.

Knowing your background Zeno I have been confused at your efforts to find reason in what have been the clearly irrational and unreasoned positions of these anti-technologists.

For example, you have accepted without question their requirement that WiFi be proven safe. And yet, we know that this is an impossible task.

Craig Litwin's response to me echoed that fundamentally anti-reason position. He said he voted against wifi because there is 'mistrust of what government does.' Some people had fears, and those fears were more important to Litwin than reason.

Again, there may be real science to be done, but Sasu, and Litwin, and the crazy freaking anti-wifi 'greens' are not part of that science. They are anti-technology as their base position.

Quoting cell phone studies of headsets emitting .2-.6 watts at effectively zero distance as evidence of the risks of WiFi emitting at most .2 watts (and a 200 milliwatt Wifi system is atypical, more likely is 0.03 - 0.1 watts) at a distance of 15-20 feet at the closest (for the Access Points which Sonic wanted to put on poles) is deeply and terribly deceptive.

Sasu and her crowd, told bald faced lies in order to evoke the classic FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) effect, and due to our council cowards Craig Litwin and Linda Kelley they won this one.

[PeriodThree]

I don't know if I would go so far in singing the praises of DDT as Jeff does.
There is a lot of sound and fury over the question of DDT, with some apparently reputable sources claiming literally millions of people have died because of the DDT bans.

Malaria causes one to three millions deaths annually in the world. (cancer caused 7.6 million deaths in 2007). DDT has, at various times, been very very effective at malaria containment. OTOH, resistance to DDT has arisen in mosquitoes, greatly decreasing the effectiveness of DDT.

I personally believe that it is possible, albeit not certain, that had DDT use been continued malaria could have been eradicated in much of the world before resistance became the controlling factor.

Braggi wrote:

Of course, Zeno, and it will ever be thus. However, the example you show here is ludicrous. Those men, while putting themselves at great danger, no doubt, are working with the one substance that has saved more human lives on planet Earth than any other. And Rachael Carson was mostly wrong about it. (The effect on egg shells, for instance.)

-Jeff

[danejasper]

The statistic I was looking for has been found. Thanks to Rich for the finding this again, we'd both read it but forgotten where.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wifi#Qu...f_health_risks

Excerpt:

Dr Michael Clark, of the Health Protection Agency, says published research on mobile phones and masts does not add up to an indictment of Wi-Fi:

All the expert reviews done here and abroad indicate that there is unlikely to be a health risk from wireless networks. … When we have conducted measurements in schools, typical exposures from Wi-Fi are around 20 millionths of the international guideline levels of exposure to radiation. As a comparison, a child on a mobile phone receives up to 50 percent of guideline levels.

So a year sitting in a classroom near a wireless network is roughly equivalent to 20 minutes on a mobile. If Wi-Fi should be taken out of schools, then the mobile phone network should be shut down, too—and FM radio and TV, as the strength of their signals is similar to that from Wi-Fi in classrooms.^[1]

1. "Wi-fi: should we be worried?", The Times. Retrieved on 2007-09-16.

[danejasper]

BTW, I'll note that the item below is probably something that Sandi and I can actually agree on! Bye-bye Mr. Marconi and Mr. Tesla, it's been useful, but the benefits of radio just might not outweigh the risks, egh?

danejasper wrote:

If Wi-Fi should be taken out of schools, then the mobile phone network should be shut down, too—and FM radio and TV, as the strength of their signals is similar to that from Wi-Fi in classrooms.

-Dane

[shellebelle]

You know this brought my mind to something.

danejasper wrote:

BTW, I'll note that the item below is probably something that Sandi and I can actually agree on! Bye-bye Mr. Marconi and Mr. Tesla, it's been useful, but the benefits of radio just might not outweigh the risks, egh?
-Dane

Radio - TV

"This is a test of the emergency broadcasting system. This is only a test - had this been an actual emergency you would have been instructed where to turn in your area for updated information. Thank you. This has been a test."

Which lead me to VA Tech (RIP)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

Virginia Tech massacre was a school shooting comprising two separate attacks about two hours apart on April 16, 2007, on the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Virginia, United States. The perpetrator, Seung-Hui Cho, killed 32 people and wounded many more^[2] before committing suicide, making it the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history.^[3]
Student response


Virginia Tech students mourn the victims at a candlelight vigil.


After becoming aware of the incident, students communicated with their family and peers about their conditions, using telephones and social networking services;^[64][65] some bodies were found with cell phones and PDAs still ringing.^[66]

Do you think WiFi potentially gave someone that last chance to say good bye?

Note below some articles about how web, email and text alerts potentially has or will save lives. Now I may be wrong BUT . . . I think a turned off computer or cell phone means no alert received. Is it worth your life, your child's life or your friends life? Not that someone with EMF fears would be any where near a wired campus, hotel, convention center, or any major community event but just a thought.

This is my favorite:

Welcome to Alert DC

The Alert DC system provides rapid text notification and update information during a major crisis or emergency. This system delivers important emergency alerts, notifications and updates on a range of devices including your: e-mail account [work, home, other] cell phone pager, BlackBerry wireless PDA When an incident or emergency occurs, authorized DC Homeland Security & Emergency Management personnel can rapidly notify you using this community alert system. Alert DC is your personal connection to real-time updates, instructions on where to go, what to do, or what not to do, who to contact and other important information. Alert DC is available to citizens of the District of Columbia as well as individuals traveling to or working in the District. Sign up for an account to receive alerts and emergency notifications today. Note: Subscribers may be charged, as set forth in their wireless provider's contract, for messages delivered to their wireless devices.

Thursday, 03 May 2007

E0062 bc-texting(smw) 05-02 0478

Daily Herald

Tacoma campuses trying out text-message emergency alerts Karen Hucks Tacoma News Tribune TACOMA, Wash. -- If Tacoma Community College has an incident on campus anything like Virginia Tech's recent shootings, students could know there's a problem almost instantly. At least, the students who sign up for a new text-messaging program -- called e2Campus -- at the college would know. "The students really use text-messaging," said college spokesman Dan Small. "We could get the word to students in a classroom via text messaging, for instance, that we needed to lock down a building or we've had an incident. They could see it in a classroom, where they wouldn't be answering phones." They're not the only school in the area that's noticed that the best way to get in touch with students might be with text messages. The University of Washington Tacoma will also have a text-messaging emergency alert program in place by the fall, said spokesman Mike Wark. The University of Puget Sound will do the same, said spokeswoman Melissa Rohlfs. After a deranged Virginia Tech student killed 32 people April 16 in the worst shooting in U.S. history, campuses across the country started questioning their own security measures.

February 18, 2008 Would a Text-Message Emergency-Alert System Have Helped at Northern Illinois U.?

The deadly shootings at Northern Illinois University took just a couple of minutes from the time the gunman walked onto a classroom stage and opened fire, killing five and wounding 16 more, and the time he shot and killed himself. Campus police officers were on the scene quickly, and officials posted e-mail and Web alerts within minutes, urging everyone on the campus to steer clear of King Commons and any buildings near where the shootings had taken place.

The campus did not have a system that can send emergency alerts to cellphones, though officials had been considering installing such a system. And an IT official at Northern Illinois told The Chronicle that he is still not sure whether the alert system would have added much to its emergency response. Are the systems worth the cost, or are resources better spent elsewhere? —Jeffrey R. Young"