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  1. TopTop #91
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    I tried to research postings on circles, but these things are not posted, for obvious reasons, which you are already informed about.

    Women have always been sponsored if they didn't have the money, and in my experience,
    most didn't have the loose change of $5,000 sitting around to gamble with. But of course, that word is not used, because that would be a clear violation of the circle intention, which is to mislead the unwitting invitees.

    These offerings are done person to person, but unlike the old MLM style, this is not something to share openly with others. These invitations are done usually one on one, friend to friend, with a promise to "tell no one". That is, until you're "in", and then you better tell someone (a trusted friend) quick!

    Hummingbird,
    if you are privileged to know several women doing this now, you're in a perfect position to step up, and gain the knowledge that the game has changed. I personally don't want the risk, but you may be the perfect person. At least, you will be able to get some first hand information from the women you know.

    I really hope that your perceptions are right. Nothing would make me feel better about this discussion than to know that I was wrong. I really want to be wrong! You can help, even if you don't believe in rescuing. You can change the course of Wacco history!!!


    Do you believe enough in the stand you've taken, in words, to step forward on the burning coals of the unknown?
    Or is it just rhetoric? Only you know what's in your heart.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by hummingbird: View Post
    I'm curious about recent rip-offs. Are there any new phase rip-off postings? Also, 25 years ago were women being sponsored to join in? I know several women doing this now and most were sponsored to join. That feels like it changes the game to me. It's no longer your devil begotten old pyramid when the women at the "top" willingly sponsor others and then drop to the bottom again and start again after they receive. 11% is no longer accurate.
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  2. TopTop #92
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hummingbird - I think you're projecting negative stories and judgments on this conversation and the people in it that have nothing to do with what we're actually saying. I don't think you're trying to understand what we're saying with empathy and curiosity, but instead you're assuming and negating in one easy step. I think you're looking for what to negate in what we say and who we are, not what to value and appreciate. I invite you to listen to what we actually say, and not presume we mean something else then attack us for that assumption.

    I know that I bent over backwards to speak calmly and meet you where you are, to talk about facts and perceptions, to respond to your points. I never said you were the bad guy, ever. We're having a conversation here on a topic and I responded to the points that you made. That's what a conversation is. And still you can't see anything to be kind or gracious or appreciative to me about that. Nothing. Instead you make lashing non-factual broad negating attacks on me and others, or at least that's how it seems to me. Is that how you're modeling or creating the positive kind of conversation you want?

    And I do see such deep dissonances in what you say. For instance - if these groups are so great, why didn't you ever give them your money when you were invited? How can you even report how great they are if you haven't chosen to be in one? How do you even know? And people have reported being ripped off. Why don't you care about them?

    But I'm mostly struck by your attitude, which feels to me judgmental and demeaning, as if your way is the only right way, and you can stand in judgment of others with abandon -- without looking at the facts -- without caring about how people are feeling. If anyone is injured, they're not supposed to bring it up or try to warn others, or they're the problem. I find that approach disturbing, and I don't see how it would result in happy outcomes.

    I agree with the premise of not making personal attacks and focusing instead on facts and perspectives, and have sought to walk that path. My perception is that most people here have been doing the same. Some people here have been a bit more negating in tone than my preference (for instance making broad statements by gender) but that to me has been relatively minor.

    But I have to ask - do you really think that you have walked the path of being constructive in your communications? Look at your post below. To me, it's full of negating of others, as you stand on high. So why do you think you can judge in mean ways and no one can dare to disagree or they'll be attacked by you? To me, it is you that is bringing in the personal attack approach most of all.

    So, if you want to have a respectful conversation that's based on facts and factual perceptions, not personal attacks, then I invite you to model that in the ways that you participate.

    I'd also like to add that, to me, there's a big difference between FEAR and CAUTION. Certainly we don't want to be driven by baseless fear. However, there are real dangers in the world, and being ignorant or naive about them doesn't make them go away. Caution can help us stay alive and take care of ourselves. Do you really live your life without recognizing that some choices might be harmful to yourself and others? Really?

    But the key point that I don't feel that you've heard is that many of us are open to lots of ways of innovating. That's delightful. We just object to people's money being taken based on lies and false pretenses. That doesn't seem to bother you. In fact, you seem to negate anyone who would dare to object to that. The victim is the problem? They should just be happy about being ripped off? You really seem to be saying that over and over again. But why, if we're not supposed to be directive of others, are you being directive that people should feel that way? Why do you have no room for how they actually feel?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by hummingbird: View Post
    Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? I suggest the current model has evolved. Right now. Not the past. Of course you will make an effort to make me a bad guy. From where I stand the only posts in this thread that carry reason and compassion are those suggesting the narrow, panicked ones let it rest. All I see in many posts are hatred and anger dressed up as "I'm here to help" or so-called justice.

    Before I read this thread I had thought little of the circles, decided to let them be not something I would join. After reading some of the writing from the the lynch mob, I see that what these women are doing is a huge threat to the status quo. This I fully and whole heartedly support. This is not because I am uneducated in these regards like you work hard to illustrate. Nor am I immoral.

    So, I thank you for actively placing words in my mouth again…. The word for word lawyer style argumentation makes for not really trying to understand what is truly being said. What do you have to lose in letting your perspective rest for even a wee moment? Obviously not $5000. Needing the last word, makes for poor listening. What IS being said here by folks who disagree with you? What is between the lines? Not what do you need to prove here in order to make your point, but what is really being said? How are you being asked to stretch your mind?


    I guess what I suggest is that there are no victims or perpetrators here. If we are commited to someone being the bad guy. We are just as commited to the world being full of potential victims. I'm not in that party. No way. I don't support or condone any behavior that forces any one to stay in the roll of victim. The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience than any thing they point the finger at.

    Many of us are commited to being victims, perpetrators, or rescuers. The rescuers are completely lost with no one to save. What would you lose if the women in these circles were given responsibility for their own choices. Who would you rescue?


    Again, I have never participated in these circles. I have never joined a pyramid, but have been invited to plenty. One offered cashing in on some rocking vibrators. Difficult to resist! I only support pushing the edge, I don't think money is bad, nor is earning it. I just think it's funny how rigid your opinion is. How limited and tired. Makes me yawn. I can hear the grand parents hollerin'. "Thats not the way we made money when I was a kid, I had to shovel shit for a nickel a day."

    If you don't want to join the circles, please join me in not participating. Just please get of the high horse.



    A total tangent, or perhaps not:

    When I go to cross at main street and Hwy12 on fridays around lunch time, I cross on the side of the street that does not host the man saluting. I realize that he must have invested something big in his ideas about right and wrong, perhaps a huge part of his heart. He came out to the street a couple of years ago, after the women in black, actively opposing their peaceful stance. I realize that everything he stands for is not wrong and offensive, but because of the apparent anger he holds in delivering his message I avoid him and send him love from a distance. I'm sure there is a reason he holds so tightly to his ideas. He appears to carry trauma from a war in his body and actions. It's sad.

    Since you ask the question if I'm have some dark past with these women's circles, I have to ask... Are the nay saying writers here paid by the right wing to scream and holler about anything on the internet that pushes the edges of normal for society? Are you internet trolls? In all honesty, I know you are not, but some of the rhetoric does start to appear redundant and fear based.

    Fear based. Not where I want to live. No thank you.

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  4. TopTop #93
    hummingbird
    Guest

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    I believe one should only spend what you can afford to lose. So I won't accept your offer to join. I just think it's cool for these women to go against the grain. More than that I think is awful for people to be so commited to the vilification of these circles or anything that you are not intimately connected with for that matter. I also think its terrible to compare rape with pyramids. I give up. So now I know. This is where I come to see judgement and the victim/perp/rescuer model demonstrated fully. Also, I don't have any desire to break down the play by play of my perspective here. I only offered it as an gift. It's clear that you all are clear in your views and you feel good about them. Take what you like, leave the rest.

    Its funny how quickly we all want to take personal choice away from one another. Its as if we have the answers and the rest of the folks are drooling fools.

    In speaking with the man on the street, I didn't experience fear, only a recognition that to get through to his heart would take way more effort than I was prepared to give. Feels similar to my experience here, sometimes it's easier to just walk on the other side of the street. More satisfying too. One of the ladies has such a lovely smile.
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  5. TopTop #94
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    For those who are interested, I think this article does a good job of exploring this topic.

    Controversy Over Women's Gifting Circles: Blessing or Disaster?
    https://ignitechannel.com/articles/c...g-or-disaster/

    EXCERPTS In our community, particularly among West Coast burners, gifting circles and those who are opposed are blowing on the embers of controversy, resulting in singed friendships and relationships. We are becoming a community divided over these circles.

    In preparing to write this article, I treaded through countless blogs and social media posts representing both positive and negative viewpoints regarding gifting circles. From the positive side, I was showered with beautiful phrases and ideas like the circle is “for sister goddesses in need of female connection and spiritual healing”, and it is “an empowerment bridge designed to forge the way for womankind to rise up and shine in all her glory.” That sounds great to me! I’m all for women’s empowerment, sisterhood and spiritual healing.

    However, this language disguises the fact that in order for some women to be empowered, others must be disempowered.
    (She then describes the pyramid math)



    Causes for concern:

    * Paying for connection. Most gifting circles offer healing and/or connection with other women as a reason to join. “Why on earth are my friends all of a sudden charging me to connect with them?” said one responder on a blog about gifting circles.

    * Gifting Circles have nothing to do with gifting. Many people join gifting circles with the expectation of a return. Here’s a comment made by a new recruit: “I'm really excited about paying off my student loans with this!” In gifting cultures like the one I’ve experienced at Burning Man, we give gifts with no expectation of a return. If you’re hoping for a return on your initial $5000 investment, then you’re gambling, not gifting. (She then has a sign from Burning Man describing what an actual gifting culture is -- e.g. no expectation of return.)

    * There are countless reports of circles ripping apart friendships and relationships. Why? (She describes how this happens) …

    * The financial risks of receiving nothing in return for the initial “gift” are not always clearly accepted or understood. ...

    * Some circles use manipulative language to convince people to join or stay. One woman who shared concerns was told “we’ll help you work through your blocks around receiving in order to continue into your process of elevating into abundance consciousness.” In other words, you don’t understand because you aren’t as elevated as we are, yet. We can help you rise to our level. “They’ll tell you that you are in your head and not your heart, and that you’re just in poverty consciousness…You’re considered not conscious or intelligent enough or afraid to evolve…If you bring forward what you find online about [circles], you’re told it’s put there to disempower you.”

    * Flawed concept of abundance mentality. People in circles “manifest abundance” by taking money from other people. They’re passing money up to the next person in the circle. Some who make money from the scheme filter it back in, but what happens when the people who’ve just gotten their big payout can’t find anyone else to join? They leave the circle and take the money with them. At some point, the whole group runs out of new people to tap. The circles apply abundance mentality to a system that is rooted in the scarcity economy, a system that makes people rich by taking from others.

    ***

    Of course, there are many, many gifting circles out there. They are not all the same. Some are led by people who set out with the conscious intent to scam and manipulate. Some are led by people who don’t recognize their own intent to scam and manipulate. Some are led by people who have good intentions. If you are thinking of joining a circle, it’s always wise to do your own research instead of just listening to others who are giving you financial advice, even when those people are your true friends who have the best of intentions.

    ...

    (It also has lots of people's comments.)
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  6. Gratitude expressed by 4 members:

  7. TopTop #95
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    just doesn't seem so compassionate to me. it seems like an accusation of heartless sociopathy.
    Hmmm...are you presupposing that an accusation of heartless sociopathy in this situation would be inaccurate? Do you have a stereotyped image of what a heartless sociopath looks like--an image that doesn't include "spiritual" white women in "goddess" clothing, spouting New Agey hogwash as they bilk their sisters out of $5000 each? If there is reason to believe that sociopathy is playing a role here (hint: it is), isn't it more compassionate to address it for the good of the community, than to soothe our own distress (and avoid being called a "witch-hunter") by avoiding that discussion?
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  9. TopTop #96
    hummingbird
    Guest

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    This was sent to me by someone named Sandy. Feels pretty hostile. So well done. Continue onward with the gallant efforts to "educate." Choosing not to go further in this discussion is based on noticing when there are ears to hear and where there are not. When folks are so upset like in this post there is no need to discuss further. So I will take my perspective away. You can continue to talk amongst yourselves. Pat yourselves on the back.

    Please don't email me personally with something that you would not post publicly. Inquiry is welcome. But not rants like this. Sandy, you do not know me or my motives, nor I you. I am offended by your comments. So It is agreed. To the other side of the street I go. Where the smiles make it all the way to the eyes. I sense that you need not worry about becoming friends with me.... Thank you for making it personal.

    So rape and women's circles are one in the same.....carry on folks.

    Respectfully,
    Hummingbird

    Below is Sandy's email:

    [Copy of private email removed. It is serious breach of netiquette to post private communications publicly. I also urge everybody to use extreme discretion when choosing to write to someone privately about their public posts, especially if there is any reason to think they may not welcome your communication. You can either post your comments publicly and write to them privately and ask their permission to send your full comments. Something like: "I disagree with what you have posted and I'd like send you my frank thoughts. Is that OK with you?". Thank you for your cooperation - Barry]
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  10. TopTop #97

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hi everyone. I have not yet responded to this thread until now because I have tendinitis and cannot type (using voice recognition software is a long exhausting and painful process). But I am committed to this public conversation and I have a lot to offer as I just recently chose to leave a "Women's Wisdom Circle." I was involved for many months and have first-hand experience to share.

    I would like to mention that because this conversation is currently in response to the thread that Barry started last August, some of you may not have seen this important letter my partner Jeff posted: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103612-Reclaiming-Women-s-Circles&highlight=Jeff+Huling&p=176487#post176487. If you have not had a chance to read this letter, please do so! It addresses many of the concerns and questions people have posted here.

    I joined circle because I thought that it was a sacred underground alternative women's economy. I thought that everything my dear friend who invited me told me about the circle was accurate. I trusted her and the many other women I knew who were involved (just as they had trusted the women who invited them, and those women trusted the women who invited them, etc). I trusted that the detailed 15 page "Official Women's Wisdom Circle 2013 Guidelines" were created from well intentioned experienced "senior sisters" who were committed to creating true financial empowerment and abundance using a well developed sustainable model that had been supporting women for decades.

    I was told many times verbally and in written word: "Our circle is NOT a hierarchy, it is a circle. There is no one at the "top" or at the "bottom", unlike a "pyramid." Each woman cycles through every position on Circle until she is complete with receiving and then she steps off. We have a small, finite number of women, and everyone has exactly the same opportunity!"

    Then, when inviting another woman to join this delightful journey with me, she told me that this system was far from sustainable and empowering. That the financial design of these current circles purposely makes sure that each woman does NOT have "exactly the same opportunity".

    I did not believe this information was true until I took several hours to write out all the numbers myself. I saw with my own eyes that the financial structure is based on exponential growth and therefore makes it literally impossible for the majority of the women involved to ever receive monetary gifts. I was shocked, heartbroken and hurt.

    This is a fact that cannot be disputed because the math tells the truth. If anyone on this thread has not seen the numbers for themselves, I encourage you to take a few minutes to watch this slideshow:
    https://www.slideshare.net/AmberBieg/gifting-circles8513. It shows exactly how the financial aspect of these circles are designed, and this is crucial to understand.

    I wanted to believe that because women could rejoin or be on more than one circle, that somehow the infinite amount of women required could be attained or "circled through". However, I realized that because the difference between women receiving and the total number of women involved is already so large - even if every dessert reentered - it would only create a slightly larger population in the ever increasing number of women required to make circles split (which, as the guidelines state clearly, is the point of these women's circles - to have consistent "forward momentum"). And, each woman who is "gifting", may not be expecting, but is sincerely hoping to receive eight times what she gave. So each of these reentering desserts would be another person waiting to receive more money later, only obtained by a much larger amount of women joining.

    When I did my research I found out that this structure is what is called an endless chain scheme, pyramid scheme or ponzi scheme. This financial design is, was, and always has been, designed and started by con-artists (just like all the preceding versions of these schemes many others here have referred to). And con-artists have one intention only – to steal people's money.

    The current version of this scheme is more brilliant than any scam before it - because you do not actually get something for nothing. You must invest a great deal of time, energy, heart, openness, commitment and courage to be engaged in the latest versions of these circles. You need to be on weekly 1 hour calls, plus a weekly 30 minute coaching call with your dessert leader. When you get to the entrée position, you then need to support the dessert on even more weekly calls and be available to lead calls when the dessert is not able to. If you finally make it to the dessert position, you need to learn how to lead a group of women through weekly conference calls as well as individual coaching calls. You need to write new creative meditations for every call and help incoming women manifest $5000, and encourage them to invite other women authentically into the circle. When a new woman wants to join, you need to lead an guest call, then an introduction call and an invitation training call. Being in circle is no small commitment! The women's support group aspect of these circles are definitely a "living workshop".

    I received many positive benefits through being a part of this women's circle. And I have heard from some women that they gained invaluable skills, growth and learning that they would have paid more than $5k for. Through my participation, I realized how much women in our community have been seeking the consistent support, sisterhood, and growth that is shared through the authentic sharing and commitment of the structured weekly calls. The intention to believe in one another, use the law of attraction to blossom and manifest our dreams, is beautiful and much needed in our culture.

    BUT, that does not make it okay for the truth of the financial structure to be hidden. No matter how much benefit we receive through the community of our sisterhood, this financial structure is still out of integrity. No matter how much good intention and integrity is within the hearts of the women in these circles, the financial structure underpinning it is, and always will be, a harmful scheme. And, as long as women think it is okay to continue participating because of all the amazing benefit they are receiving from the women's support group aspect, then the scheme continues to grow and more and more women are lied to and loose their their money. If women truly wanted to empower each other financially they would create a sustainable system that gives equal opportunity for all women to receive more monetary abundance.

    The women's support group aspect of these circles CAN be created and sustained WITHOUT the financial scam. We can create amazing women circles that offer all of this and more, without the fraudulent financial structure. I believe putting energy and attention on creating positive alternative women support groups will help us reclaim our women circles.

    I am grateful that some folks have written in about the positive aspects of circle, because I believe it is very important to understand why women choose to be apart of this. I am also grateful for the deep genuine concern that has been expressed through this forum and the awareness of the sharp thorn that is tearing apart our conscious community and leaving thousands of women in debt. I only wish that I had this information before I joined.

    Lastly, there are various support groups through Facebook and otherwise that are helping women heal from the process of finding out the truth. I am happy to share this information with women who need it. Here is an excellent article to help those who are trying to recover their money and their trust: https://www.sondrarose.com/extracting-yourself-from-a-womens-gifting-circle-with-integrity-and-grace.

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  12. TopTop #98
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux more from circle rejects....

    I'm still getting responses to my personal email sent out to friends asking if they had experience in gifting circles.

    One woman told me today that it was like a "sinkhole" pulling everyone down. It went on for about 9 months, and people were having difficulty bringing others in. It finally disbanded with even the leader not making a profit. My friend said it was so draining, and went on for so long.

    Another friend said that she was invited to speak about her business, so the other women could support her. She said that the whole time she was telling them about it, they were talking amongst themselves and not paying any attention to her. They lost a her as a customer from this rude behavior. So, at least she didn't lose any money. She just felt very disappointed, and wanted nothing to do with them.
    She was one of the lucky ones!
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  14. TopTop #99
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Shandi, I believe the big "we", along with other sweeping generalities, misses the hard fact that there is no one overarching truth. There are, confoundingly, lots of them, all at once.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    Kathy,

    if it's o.k. (with the swindlee)to be swindled if (he or she thinks) higher values are being served, than it must be o.k. (with the swindler) to swindle if I perceive that higher values are being served. Yep. But these two realities--of the swindler and the swindlee--do not belong in an if-then sentence, unless you're appealing to the Grand Opinionator. I mean....with whom is it alleged to be "ok"?

    We are all vulnerable to predators, and they know just what we want/need to hear. Some of them even take courses in "mind control" or neuro-linquistic programming. Some are just very good at sales. That's really what it comes down to.....sales through maniupulation. Because if the truth was visible, we might not buy.

    I never did the EST training, but know people who did. I've only used a live psychic once, and pretty much trust my own instincts. But I've been manipulated out of large sums of money, in my prior business. I had no knoiwledge or training in contract law. Once I learned the moves of one trickster, I tried to warn a large hotel, like the Hyatt, that this person would leave in the middle of the night, without paying his bill. They didn't believe me, and may have thought I was a bit off, but he did just as I said he would.

    Whenever a friend is about to spend money on a service, I try to make sure that she's informed about the details of what will be provided, and the total cost, along with a written agreement. Here I have to say if i were the friend in question i'd feel a little patronized. I've never had anyone warn me about things, so I do believe it's a great thing to do for people we care about.

    Only 2 days ago, I saw a dead branch hanging in a neighbor's tree. It was about 5' long, and the large end pointed straight down....above the path they use every day to their front door. I pointed it out to them, and the woman said "Oh thank you, we'll take that down right away". Guess what.....it's still hanging! It will fall eventually, with a strong wind, and hopefully no one will be underneath it. I wouldn't chance it myself. There are enough things to be aware of, without inviting trouble.

    I do agree that we all seek connection, but it can come through so many avenues at hardly any cost at all. I would advise anyone who feels the need to connect, to look at volunteering for something that resonates with you. People who sign up for gifting circles aren't asking your advice. This can bring meaningful connection along with oxytocin, and even improved health!
    and all the foregoing red opinions belong to a lefter-than-socialist! (i sound like a libertarian, to my ears anyway, in this...)

    kathy
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  15. TopTop #100
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by hummingbird: View Post
    So rape and women's circles are one in the same.....carry on folks.
    Hummingbird, Sandy made it explicitly clear in her email to you that she was not making women's circles (specifically pyramid schemes like the Women's "Wisdom" Circle) equivalent to rape; she was quite accurately citing some ugly similarities they have. For you to misrepresent what she clearly said is an example of the logical fallacy most commonly called a "straw man" argument (though I prefer the gender-neutral term "straw figure"). It involves distorting someone's real argument into something less reasonable as a way of evading the issues. As such, it's consistent with the distorted "reasoning" you've been displaying here.
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  16. TopTop #101
    meherc's Avatar
    meherc
    Supporting member

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Yes, I think a lot of people do not give others the freedom to make their own choices. It often shows itself as "I just want you to do the right thing because I care about you." Read as "you should act just like me for I am obviously more evolved than you." The topper is when they solemnly look at you and say "I'll pray for you." People have their own reasons for making the choices they make. Can't know or judge what's in another's heart. And I'll pray for you...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by hummingbird: View Post
    Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? ...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-21-2014 at 02:06 PM.
    Marilyn Meshak Herczog, EA
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  17. TopTop #102
    meherc's Avatar
    meherc
    Supporting member

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    I think we should all go back to vilifying Efren instead of going on with this which is sounding more and more like an attack on one woman who has a different point of view
    Last edited by Barry; 03-21-2014 at 02:07 PM.
    Marilyn Meshak Herczog, EA
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  18. TopTop #103
    markwjam's Avatar
    markwjam
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Last edited by Barry; 03-21-2014 at 02:11 PM.
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  20. TopTop #104
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by meherc: View Post
    I think we should all go back to vilifying Efren instead of going on with this which is sounding more and more like an attack on one woman who has a different point of view
    attack?? pretty much all the posts have patiently gone over and over the same ground - that these circles do harm - and tried to point out that the O.P.s defenses seem to deflect rather than address the points the commenters have been raising. Why post here if that kind of conversation is considered out of bounds? Or, more to the point, why keep it going?
    Quote Yes, I think a lot of people do not give others the freedom to make their own choices.
    and that's kind of infuriating, I must say. What is happening here is she's not being given endorsement of her point of view. Why make it an oppressor thing? not one post that I see here even hints that people who want to be in circles should be stopped. It's all about education (which is not the same as forced indoctrination!) and questioning the validity of different perspectives.

    not that I'm against vilifying Efren, though. Is he starting circles now too??
    Last edited by Barry; 03-21-2014 at 02:36 PM.
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  22. TopTop #105
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    I'm curious about how we don't give others the freedom to make their own choices. Who among us has that power? When my friends or acquaintances have asked me "What should I do, or what's the "right" thing to do?" (And believe me, I've had people, especially woman, ask this question a lot in my life.) My response goes something like this "The right thing to do is what you want to do. The "right" way is "your" way. I'm happy to share any information that I might have, so that you might make a more informed choice. But I won't take responsibility for telling you what to do."

    My perspective is to empower people to take the responsibility of making their own choice. This is one of the best ways to begin to trust ourselves. We may make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them, but to rely on another person to tell us what and how to do something, can be an avoidance of responsibility. Taking classes or being tutored, or one of the many other ways we may choose to learn something, is different than just asking someone, "What should I do?".

    So, maybe we can begin another conversation about "responsibility" and "self trust". How do we develop these in ourselves and our children? I gave my childen a lot of freedom. I never had to get them out of bed to go to school. I got them each a clock alarm and they were responsible for getting themselves up. If they were late to school, they had to deal with the consequences. I don't recall that ever happening. Another thing I did when they were teens, starting to go out at night, was not give them a "kurfew". I just thought about how annoying it would be for me to have to constantly watch the clock while I'm having a great time. What a drag! I asked where they were going, with whom, and about what time did they think they might be home. They never came home past 1am. My ex husband would wait up frantically worried, until they got home. I went to bed, and slept like a baby.
    I always let them know that I trusted them to make wise choices, and if they didn't they would feel the consequences, although usually not from me.

    I was warned about the "terrible teens", but I never paid much attention to it, and my kids were never in any kind of trouble, and didn't do drugs, even though I introduced them to an education on cannabis that went against what they were being told in school. We had a great relationship then, and still do, now that they're in their 50's with their own children. They've shared appreciation for the way they were raised, and said now they know what a tough responsibility parenting is. That's all I've got for now. Open, as always, for comments, discussion, and various perceptions of community members.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by meherc: View Post
    Yes, I think a lot of people do not give others the freedom to make their own choices. It often shows itself as "I just want you to do the right thing because I care about you." Read as "you should act just like me for I am obviously more evolved than you." The topper is when they solemnly look at you and say "I'll pray for you." People have their own reasons for making the choices they make. Can't know or judge what's in another's heart. And I'll pray for you...
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  24. TopTop #106
    MissElaineE.
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    I suppose that you might choose to view the Gifting Circles group differently. Here's my view: you start by paying an entry fee of $5000, which is merely the equivalent of a club membership fee, and it allows you to associate with other women in a private members-only club. As a member, you will get to define yourself as something waiting to be eaten, you might possibly be paid back for the membership fee plus more (but also might never get back anything at all), and the whole purpose of the group seems to be for you to recruit new members (who are going to be defined as something to be eaten), convince them to recruit, and thereby "evolve" into something that sounds like it might be preferable, but is really also just something that will eventually be eaten. Joining the club is voluntary, just send your $5000 payment and come to our first meeting. You'll be on the dinner menu, listed as an appetizer.

    Um........ ok? Seriously?

    I just don't think I could recommend joining, and still keep a straight face while dong so.
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  26. TopTop #107
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Your humor is refreshing!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MissElaineE.: View Post
    I suppose that you might choose to view the Gifting Circles group differently. Here's my view: you start by paying an entry fee of $5000,...
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  27. TopTop #108
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    The problem with her point of view is that it's lacking any real experience. She indicates that something's great, that she has no real knowledge of. I can look at someone on the street and say "that guy is wonderful", but if I don't know him at all, what would be missing from this picture?

    In my opinion, it's an illogical statement, based on nothing. Would you want to meet him based on my uninformed perspective? And beyond that, if several women knew him to be a liar and a cheat, and told you so, who would you be likely to believe? The answer doesn't really matter; it's just a comparison of the similar elements involved in this discussion. Anyone can have a point of view, and most do, but normally it's either based on experience or blind prejudice.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by meherc: View Post
    I think we should all go back to vilifying Efren instead of going on with this which is sounding more and more like an attack on one woman who has a different point of view
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  29. TopTop #109
    meherc's Avatar
    meherc
    Supporting member

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    What??? Are you referring to my post? I don't get what you're replying to. It was a stab at humour when things were getting nasty but your comment has nothing to do with what I said anyway. Perhaps you pushed the wrong button?


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    The problem with her point of view is that it's lacking any real experience. She indicates that something's great, that she has no real knowledge of. I can look at someone on the street and say "that guy is wonderful", but if I don't know him at all, what would be missing from this picture?

    In my opinion, it's an illogical statement, based on nothing. Would you want to meet him based on my uninformed perspective? And beyond that, if several women knew him to be a liar and a cheat, and told you so, who would you be likely to believe? The answer doesn't really matter; it's just a comparison of the similar elements involved in this discussion. Anyone can have a point of view, and most do, but normally it's either based on experience or blind prejudice.
    Marilyn Meshak Herczog, EA
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  30. TopTop #110
    meherc's Avatar
    meherc
    Supporting member

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Whatever you're talking about, your comment itself sounds pretty unkind, not a reasonable exchange of ideas.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by meherc: View Post
    What??? Are you referring to my post? I don't get what you're replying to. It was a stab at humour when things were getting nasty but your comment has nothing to do with what I said anyway. Perhaps you pushed the wrong button?
    Marilyn Meshak Herczog, EA
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  31. TopTop #111
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by meherc: View Post
    What??? Are you referring to my post? I don't get what you're replying to. It was a stab at humour when things were getting nasty but your comment has nothing to do with what I said anyway. Perhaps you pushed the wrong button?
    Marilyn, Shandi's comment was not directed at you. It was a response to Hummingbird. Shandi was referring to the fact that Hummingbird has been praising pyramid schemes like the Women's "Wisdom" Circle while claiming never to have participated in one. Since Hummingbird has manifestly also not learned how the mathematics work, she's expressing vehement opinions on the basis of no apparent knowledge. This, I think, was Shandi's message; it had nothing to do with you.
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  33. TopTop #112
    peacetree's Avatar
    peacetree
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hmmm..... Well I have heard of many of these schemes over the years and they are all based on a basic pyramid scheme. The general idea is it is an exclusive ( aren't you lucky I decided to let you into our private circle) thing that will allow you to make an unbelievable amount of $. The catch is this only works for those who join early on and who don't care that the money they get is from the less fortunate late joiners who never get anything. They depend on an ever expanding "select" crowd that eventually tops out and the folks who weren't in on the beginning are the ones left out.

    Each scheme has a rational detailing why their pyramid scheme is NOT one! It is frustrating to see folks lining up to be fleeced and who have bought into it. Even if they do get some money they do it on the unwitting wallets of those they con into joining. It is the opposite of sisterhood or community, and is so very very common, just changing the targeted groups and names. Please consider carefully whether you want to help hurt others and yourself. Even if you gain $, you do it with the certainty others are suffering loss for it, and that is also something you might not want to "gain" on your conscience............ Wishing Peace, and real Community to us all
    Last edited by Barry; 03-24-2014 at 12:20 PM.
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  35. TopTop #113
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by peacetree: View Post
    ...Even if you gain $, you do it with the certainty others are suffering loss for it, and that is also something you might not want to "gain" on your conscience............
    That's the bottom line here. This is a ZERO SUM GAME. For every dollar "manifested" there is a dollar less in some other "sister's" purse. Yes, some may choose to re-invest or sponsor someone else, but every dollar that is taken out of the circle (ie spent) will lead to dollar that someone "loses".

    The Women's Gifting Circle has been compared to "investing" in the stock market. While there is some truth to that, the stock market has both zero sum attributes (bidding the price of a stock up and down), there is also non-zero sum attribute. The value of the underlying asset does change in real terms. Just think if you owned 1share of Apple Computer 10 years ago. Besides the stock price rising, the value of that tiny piece of Apple Computer Corp is worth a bunch more! Value has been created, not just reshuffled/transferred. The Women's Gifting Circle may create (and destroy) some level of social value, but it does not create any financial value.

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  37. TopTop #114

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    YUP!

    AND, when you invest in the stock market you KNOW the risk you're taking. You understand that you can lose a lot of money or gain a lot of money. But with these women circles, you're not told up front what you're joining. You are lied to. It's an intricately built scam where every question & detail has been skillfully hidden through tidy and articulate new age language. They purposely do not use "investment language". And money is actually rarely spoken about within the support group unless someone is referring to "manifesting their gift". All the focus is put upon the personal growth and sisterhood. They say the money is secondary, just the "icing on the cake", so that we think this couldn't possibly be about greed and money. It doesn't appear anything like the stock market, so many women honestly don't know that we are gambling our money away and prepetuating the lie to our closest friends....


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    That's the bottom line here. This is a ZERO SUM GAME. ..
    Last edited by Barry; 03-24-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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