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  1. TopTop #121
    Cinda
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    There's lots of distinct but related topics going on in this thread. I may eventually split it, but not just yet.

    I want to comment on two points:

    - Moderation
    - The Farmers Market at the Barlow.

    Regarding moderation, there was some harsh talk here before I posted my comments on Wednesday (#80) that I decided to let go, and I was hoping the discussion would proceed respectfully.

    Lizzysweet, then continued to post in a tone/style that I (and many of you) find too aggressive (#86), regardless of her point of view:

    "like the grownups who chose to stay at the Vet's."
    "
    FREE THE CAPTIVES FROM WELLS FARGO!!!!"

    I wrote to her privately "Elizabeth, you are pushing the limits of decorum with your past and current posts. Please tone it down a bit."

    She has continued to post in a similar vein, including public protests of my private note to her and insinuating posts directed at applefan :
    "And for a UC Berkeley/USC graduate, if you don't know what my agenda is, I can't help you."
    "
    Even the well-educated amongst us, those who, say, hold a masters degree in social work, struggle with the ability to separate emotion from reason, misidentify a clinical demonstration of well-executed research of facts as personal harassment."

    People are not just disagreeing, they are getting offended. I'm sorry, but I can't tolerate that.

    Lizzysweet signaled that she has left the conversation "it's been grand! ." I'm hoping the temperature level of this thread will settle down now and we can resume our tryptophan-induced mellow. To be fair, she has also contributed worthy informative posts.

    Moving on to the farmer's market at The Barlow: First let be clear that my comment:

    "The one very-wrong answer is to have another market at The Barlow on Sundays" was just my personal opinion.

    Again, I really think Paula and any of her past actions should be put aside, and frankly I think it would be helpful if Paula completed her training of Jaime Smedes, and let Jamie and the SFM BOD work it out from here. If they want to move to The Barlow and Bret will have them, great! If they want to embrace the idea of 2 simultaneous markets at the plaza and at The Barlow, sure lets give it a try in the environment of mutual support and cooperation.

    However if neither of those options are chosen, for The Barlow to proceed with holding a farmer's market on Sunday's in direct competition with the plaza market, against the wishes of their (Paula-less) BOD still seems far from optimal and could easily create bad feelings just when The Barlow is just trying to get established.

    True, I hadn't considered whether there are enough vendors to participate at a Saturday market at The Barlow. I can't really speak to that. But surely that problem is exacerbated by having a second market in Sebastopol on Sunday.

    I don't see how a competitive market on Sunday's at The Barlow will benefit the community or The Barlow vs The Barlow hosting a market on another day which which will increase the opportunities to buy produce directly from the farmers without losing anything.
    I appreciate you clarifying your opinion. I'd like to add that the Barlow could overflow with local produce, meat, fish & artisan vendors on Sunday, should they make that choice. I personally know dozens who would jump at the chance whether Paula remains or not. A lot of people want to start with a clean slate.
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  3. TopTop #122
    Gratongirl
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Hello Lizzy:

    I would imagine that one of the reasons that this forum exists is because the moderator created it because he likes to engage in dialogue and community. As someone who disagrees sometimes with Barry, I can assure you that he doesn't let his opinion affect what gets posted here - and his suggestion here seems like a good and appropriate comment.

    Don't think anyone controls what one thinks after they read any post...

    Some posts are allowed even when untruthful or incorrect and it is up to the forum participants to take care of correcting that...right?

    Barry does not abuse his role to influence the discussion IMO - but, you may note that your opposing view and opinion was posted and remains...



    Quote lizzysweet wrote: View Post
    Thank you so much for this, Larkin!!!

    The challenge is further compounded by a moderator who chimes in with opinionated declarations- "The one very-wrong answer is to have another market at The Barlow on Sundays." How can one trust that their POV will be respectfully and equally defended as legitimate, particular when you are a rare voice (and being a rare voice does NOT inherently mean I'm alone!!) in a choir of devotees which clearly includes the moderator himself. To be an effective moderator, adjudicator, mediator... one must take the selfless oath of removing oneself from the emotional opinionated fray- create and adhere to distance in order to maintain bilateral, or even multilateral, perspective.

    (Barry, I respect that you and MAJ, a.k.a. "oliviathunderkitty," are both proponents of Ms. Downing, but PLEASE, both of you, just recognize and admit that it impedes your ability to be an effective moderator in this very small community! I'm not saying your a bad moderator, I'm just saying that your allegiance is transparent and you can't help but be affected by it- after all your only human! But it does tip the scale of neutrality!)

    Look, it's because I can be so clinical about this that I'm only amused by my opponents reactions. It's because I'm aware that substance supersedes style, that I take no genuine offense. It's because (Michelle) hearsay does not beget fact (THAT one you should KNOW), that I will not surrender my voice!

    Again, thank you Larkin.... and please, bring more of you and your kin to the discussion!

    (While I feel the impulse to exclaim "Oh Snap!".... I shall refrain )

    Happy Thanksgiving!
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  5. TopTop #123
    treasure
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Good question.
    Quote jesswolfe wrote: View Post
    Gaussian Process Belief Propagation?
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  6. TopTop #124
    The Barlow's Avatar
    The Barlow
     
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  7. TopTop #125
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Here' the article from the Sonoma-West that The Barlow linked to. It provides a good summary of the ongoing Farmer's Markets controversies


    Changes in farmers market on tap at the Barlow

    Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 3:49 pm
    by David Abbott Sonoma West Editor [email protected]

    Developers look for new market management

    After a brief flurry of activity over a proposed farmers market at the Sebastopol Veteran’s Hall — the new site of the Sebastopol Center for the Arts — another conversation is at hand, as the developers of the Barlow have announced they will seek an alternative to the plan to have Paula Downing manage a proposed farmers market at their location.

    Downing was expecting to begin a year-round market at the Barlow sometime this fall.

    “We have to keep our minds open to the best possibilities,” Bret Martin said, adding that the decision was made due to past legal issues Downing has faced regarding the markets in Santa Rosa and Sebastopol, and the Barlow will be seeking a “fresh start.”

    Both the Sebastopol and Santa Rosa Original Certified Farmers markets were at the center of a lawsuit brought forth by Gleason Ranch (in Bodega) owners Nancy Prebilich and Cindy Holland, which began in 2011 and was settled in September.

    Gleason was terminated from Downing’s markets and the suit cited retaliation by the market manager over criticisms of the management.

    The settlement included payments by Downing and the Sonoma County Farmers Market Association and the parties also agreed to stay away from each other for five years.

    Additionally, the Original Farmers Market had its lease terminated at the Santa Rosa Veterans Hall over a rent dispute and has relocated to the parking lot of the Wells Fargo Center for the Arts (and the future site of Sutter Hospital).

    The Santa Rosa Veterans Hall is now the site of the Redwood Empire Farmers Market, which earlier this year had a tentative agreement with the Sebastopol Center for the Arts at its new location at the Sebastopol Veterans Hall.

    At the time, Dan Smith was involved with the REFM, but that deal fell through shortly after it was announced. Smith, who operates an independent market in the parking lot of his French Garden Restaurant, has since focused his energies developing electronic medical records technology, but still wants to sell the produce he grows in Sebastopol.

    “I hope that whatever happens, that the market will be open to all local farmers,” said Smith, who was also denied a space at the Sebastopol market. “This would be good for the market as well as the farmers.”
    Martin, whose family sold the 6.5-acre site of the former apple processing plant to developer Barney Aldridge, said that although he has had limited talks with Smith, he feels as if his development will go in a different direction.

    But he still thinks there can be a solution that allows everyone to work together for a common purpose.
    “It may take awhile for the ebb and flow, but we have a vision of a more united community,” he said.

    Both Martin and Aldridge — who is a fan of Downing’s — see an expanded market as a magnet to bring people to Sebastopol. And while the Barlow will not seek Downing’s services, both men believe that everyone will be able to co-exist peacefully, with expanded opportunities for local farmers and producers.

    They also want to adopt a structure that would preclude too much power residing in the hands of either the market manager, or the market board, such as the model adopted by the Davis Farmers Market Association, which includes a grievance process and a Board of Governance.

    But Downing is concerned that the glut of local markets will reduce the profit margins of her sellers by as much as 20 percent.

    So the Original Farmers Market is in the process of reaching out to Martin and Aldridge to find out what the possibilities might be.

    “The Market remains optimistic that we can remain our home town farmers market and that we and the Barlow can find a way to work toward the higher goal that we both share — the creation of a strong, local food system that unites, rather than divides, our community,” Downing wrote in an e-mail. “One way to work together would be for the Barlow and the Market to collaborate with Cittaslow and other interested community organizations to create meaningful agriculture related special events that highlight the small entrepreneurial producers at the Barlow and the Market and throughout the community, events that are designed to bring people from all over the Bay Area to visit and enjoy Sonoma County’s glorious year-round harvest.”

    REFM eventually wants to find a way to create larger markets in Sebastopol as well.

    “REFM is excited to collaborate with the Barlow however we can so as to heighten the profile of Sonoma County farmers markets at large and to help our local producers grow strong and thrive,” wrote Jim Neufeld, president of REFM board, in an e-mail.

    Prebilich, too would like to sell her products locally as well and hopes the Barlow can fulfill its vision.
    “As a resident of Sebastopol, I appreciate their inclusive approach, opening the door to all local vendors and food purveyors,” she said. “I am excited to see the Barlow reach its full potential.”
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  8. TopTop #126
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    Both the Sebastopol and Santa Rosa Original Certified Farmers markets were at the center of a lawsuit brought forth by Gleason Ranch (in Bodega) owners Nancy Prebilich and Cindy Holland, which began in 2011 and was settled in September.

    Gleason was terminated from Downing’s markets and the suit cited retaliation by the market manager over criticisms of the management.
    I want to point out that wacco user "lizzysweet" who commented rather aggressively earlier in this thread, and who provided a "real name" with her registration of Elizabeth Sevito, was in fact Nancy Prebilich referenced above, and is involved with the lawsuit.

    I'm not privy to the details of the lawsuit, but not only did I take issue with her tone here, she also refused to take responsibility for her comments by using a false name. In my mind that impunes her character and rest of her accusations.

    The other wacco user who stridently spoke out against Paula, "Cinda" who supplied a real name of Cinda Pennington is actually Brenda Chatelaine from Smoked Olive Oil Company. Brenda also refused to take responsibility for her posts.
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  9. TopTop #127
    Adrianna
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Sorry to disappoint, but Cinda is not Brenda Chatelaine of The Smoked Olive.
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  10. TopTop #128
    gardenmaniac's Avatar
    gardenmaniac
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote Adrianna wrote: View Post
    Sorry to disappoint, but Cinda is not Brenda Chatelaine of The Smoked Olive.
    hmm ... might Cinda be Cindy Holland, co-owner at Gleason Ranch?
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  11. TopTop #129
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow



    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    I want to point out that wacco user "lizzysweet" who commented rather aggressively earlier in this thread, and who provided a "real name" with her registration of Elizabeth Sevito, was in fact Nancy Prebilich referenced above, and is involved with a lawsuit.

    I'm not privy to the details of the lawsuit, but not only did I take issue with her tone here, she also refused to take responsibility for her comments by using a false name. In my mind that impunes her character and rest of her accusations.

    The other wacco user who stridently spoke out against Paula, "Cinda" who supplied a real name of Cinda Pennington is actually Brenda Chatelaine from Smoked Olive Oil Company. Brenda also refused to take responsibility for her posts.
    barry
    i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
    on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal. im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
    from unbiased moderator
    to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like. when topics are sensitive people
    are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
    your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
    i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
    frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
    im so sad you would do this to anyone..
    sincerely
    bret
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  13. TopTop #130
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    In addition to my trusted source that informed me, I see that "Cinda" registered with the same email address as has been published elsewhere as belonging to The Smoked Olive.

    In addition, "Adrianna", I see that you are using the same computer as "Cinda".

    Quote Adrianna wrote: View Post
    Sorry to disappoint, but Cinda is not Brenda Chatelaine of The Smoked Olive.
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  15. TopTop #131
    Ernieman's Avatar
    Ernieman
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    As Dwight D. Eisenhower once said "I question your wisdom, not your motive." Please enough of the who dun'it stuff as it is not helpful, enlightening or interesting. Carry on your fight privately but publically I care about what happens at Barlow and in Sebastopol, my home town. Not about personalities. About shape, size, form and (I don't do) color.
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  17. TopTop #132
    sealwatcher's Avatar
    sealwatcher
    Supporting Member

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Shocked, Bret? At Barry? I'm grateful to Barry for being accountable for transparency. When a former litigant uses a false name to attack a perceived adversary, we who have followed this thread deserve to know.

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    barry
    i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
    on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal. im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
    from unbiased moderator
    to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like. when topics are sensitive people
    are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
    your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
    i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
    frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
    im so sad you would do this to anyone..
    sincerely
    bret
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  19. TopTop #133
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    barry
    i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
    on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal.
    WacccoBB.net is a far cry from YouTube.This forum is for "Conscious Community". Truth, Respect and Authenticity are part of our core values.

    im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
    from unbiased moderator
    to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like.
    I generally don't investigate whether someone has supplied their real name as required by our guidelines that all members agree to, until I notice them attacking or otherwise being disrespectful to others. That has happened several times in the past and I have outed them as either creating a sockpuppet or using a false name and I have supplied real names when I can.
    when topics are sensitive people
    are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
    However they have no concern about attacking others...

    your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
    It is precisely because I demand people take personal responsibility for their posts that WaccoBB is generally a respectful and safe place. It's when people invoke the veil of anonymity, and are no longer accountable for what they say, that "safety security and integrity" is lost.

    Integrity demands that people are honest and take responsibility for their statements in a public forum.

    i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
    frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.
    Your presumption is not correct, Bret. Sorry. I hold people responsible for what they post.

    I am willing to work with people who wish to reveal something "unflattering" about themselves, but not if they are being "offensive".

    "you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
    im so sad you would do this to anyone..
    I only identified the person "speaking". The extent to which that is "punishment" is determined by what the person said.
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  20. TopTop #134
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    .. your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
    i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
    just because they say that on the internet, no-one can tell you're a dog, it doesn't mean it's true. Anonymity on the internet is hard to achieve. There are many ways that identity can be revealed. I far prefer having it made explicit, like Barry does, that you need to register using your real identity. He also makes the registrations public. I suspect his main objective was to control trolling, but it does no-one any favors to let them think they can successfully hide. It may be embarrassing to be caught out expressing opinions, but if you find yourself posting things that you are that worried about having tracked back to you, those things are best not posted at all.Your digital fingerprints are far more visible than most people seem to think.


    This isn't to make you paranoid - most people have learned to behave in public differently than they might in private. The mistake is to think anything on the internet is truly private.
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  22. TopTop #135
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    barry
    ok perhaps i misunderstood your site here. to be clear we all need to know that no matter what we choose to call ourselves you at your disrection will reveal our identities as you see fit if we dont play nice.
    ok understood
    btw have you taken any side in this issue?
    if you have i hope it didnt sway your choice.

    i dont want to choose any side but i am in pain because of your choice.
    i received phone calls after i posted on wacco ..half the calls were
    for and half against a particular market manager.
    i told them all to post on wacco. one lady told me she couldnt.post because she had her life threatened after a dispute with said manager. i said to her that she could perhaps post her complaints under an alias so she wouldnt feel as though she was risking her safety.
    imagine she took my advice and somehow in your quest for us owning our comments she gets swept into this and she.wasnt even the one breaking your honor code..now if she gets threatened again or worse at this point have you participated unintentionally in harming her?
    i have asked the barlow to discontinue all communications via this medium.
    i think you should just get rid of aliases altogether rather than giving the illusion of anonymity. you.are right that we will all then be accountable but.like in china few will dare to.speak out against issues if they are speaking out against someone or.something others deem sacred
    i hope your revelation does not land anyone in the hospital or the courthouse
    sadly
    bret
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  23. TopTop #136
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    barry
    ok perhaps i misunderstood your site here. to be clear we all need to know that no matter what we choose to call ourselves you at your disrection will reveal our identities as you see fit if we dont play nice.
    ok understood
    To be clear, all users are required to supply their real names at registration and this information is made public.

    btw have you taken any side in this issue?
    if you have i hope it didnt sway your choice.
    I don't know the details of what's happened so I can't really say. In addition to my comments earlier in this thread, as well my suggestion that a new market at The Barlow not be at the same time as the existing market unless that is done cooperatively, I'll add I am struck by not only the lack of transparency but also the harsh tone of lizzysweet/Nancy Prebilich's posts.

    Just as you suggest removal from this forum is the ultimate "punishment", it would seem that would apply to a vendor at a farmers market that doesn't play nice. So I think it would be within the market manager's prerogative to exclude such a vendor. Whether or not it was warranted is a another story.
    i dont want to choose any side but i am in pain because of your choice.
    i received phone calls after i posted on wacco ..half the calls were
    for and half against a particular market manager.
    i told them all to post on wacco. one lady told me she couldnt.post because she had her life threatened after a dispute with said manager. i said to her that she could perhaps post her complaints under an alias so she wouldnt feel as though she was risking her safety.
    imagine she took my advice and somehow in your quest for us owning our comments she gets swept into this and she.wasnt even the one breaking your honor code..now if she gets threatened again or worse at this point have you participated unintentionally in harming her?
    They shouldn't say anything that they are not willing to have their name associated with. The registration process requires their real name for their profile.

    There have been cases when people accuse/repost others of mis-deeds on WaccoBB and they use their real names. Since their report is true and their intent is not malicious nor self-interested, they are willing to be fully responsible for their communications. There is no telling what's true and what's not. The only check to be applied to provide "safety" is for people to be responsible for their communication.

    To turn the tables on you, what if some anonymous/fake user posted damning things (true or not) about you or The Barlow??

    WaccoBB.net is my attempt of holding a responsible and respectful public forum. It's not your typical online forum. My key tool is holding people responsible for what they post. I think that serves us all. There are plenty of internet sites, including the PD, where user comments are anonymous and libelous. At some point I'll make that distinction yet more apparent to protect the guilty .

    i have asked the barlow to discontinue all communications via this medium.
    I hope you'l reconsider that. I have appreciated your posts, even if I haven't agreed with all of them. And I think we can be a very effective outreach to the community for you. I like to think you have used this service because users use it with integrity and respect. I'm just working to preserve that.

    i think you should just get rid of aliases altogether rather than giving the illusion of anonymity. you.are right that we will all then be accountable but.like in china few will dare to.speak out against issues if they are speaking out against someone or.something others deem sacred
    i hope your revelation does not land anyone in the hospital or the courthouse
    sadly
    bret
    Point taken, but plenty of people still speak out, and their comments carry more weight because they stand behind them.
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  25. TopTop #137
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    At some point I'll make that distinction [real names are required] yet more apparent to protect the guilty .
    Notice added! Registration screen updated:
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  27. TopTop #138
    rossmen
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    the barlow/bret have clearly taken sides in the farmer market turf wars of sonoma county. i read that this is not the barlow's desire, but the decision made not to invite the existing sebastopol market to move to the barlow, as promised, is a clear choice. we can discuss marketing strategies, management style, litigation and farmer support forever. and if you want to be on wacco.bb, don't mess with barry!

    bret i understand this thread as the barlow looking for feedback and suggestions about a farmers market at the barlow. you have not commented on my suggestion and there has been lots of negative feedback on the idea of a barlow market at the same time on sunday. your reasons why this idea makes sense to you have been met with thoughtful dispute. your allies (cohorts, not minions of the sprout crusher), are clear about their agenda. its your choice how much you want to be on their side. take another look at my suggestion, i think it is pretty cool. and it buys time to wait, why others battle.

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    i dont want to choose any side but i am in pain because of your choice.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-08-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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  29. TopTop #139
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow



    Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
    the barlow/bret have clearly taken sides in the farmer market turf wars of sonoma county. i read that this is not the barlow's desire, but the decision made not to invite the existing sebastopol market to move to the barlow, as promised, is a clear choice. we can discuss marketing strategies, management style, litigation and farmer support forever. and if you want to be on wacco.bb, don't mess with barry!

    bret i understand this thread as the barlow looking for feedback and suggestions about a farmers market at the barlow. you have not commented on my suggestion and there has been lots of negative feedback on the idea of a barlow market at the same time on sunday. your reasons why this idea makes sense to you have been met with thoughtful dispute. your allies (cohorts, not minions of the sprout crusher), are clear about their agenda. its your choice how much you want to be on their side. take another look at my shiuhiggestion, i think it is pretty cool. and it buys time to wait, why others battle.
    hi
    i admit i dont know what a sprout crusher is but we are moving forward without any management from either side. call me if you want to walk the site
    bret
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  31. TopTop #140
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    barry
    im not going to recommend anything to the barlow about posting here. i was upset when i posted that. to answer your question about how i would feel if anonymous voices criticized me? i have a
    youtube channel where i reach out to peaceful muslims all over the world with a few million views. i get death threats and anonymous people post that they hope my child who has battled cancer would die. i get insulted personally daily by cowards hiding behind aliases. i love them all and reach out to them often changing their hearts . yes i understand.
    if i ran your waccobb and i found an angry lizzy person and knew her real identity and wanted to stop her being mean i would have warned her early on that if she didnt behave that i would reveal her identity. at that point she would have proceeded at her own risk. more likely she would have posted differently. to wait until after the storm of dialogue and then revealing her identity didnt stop the problem and now appears to be merely a punishment. a surprise unexpected punishment.
    i expect fair dialogue but i also believe that you could have handled this with mutual dignity and compassion.
    your choice to wait until now has left me wondering why.
    i hope that those inclined to take sides could stop and see our shared humanity and suffering
    peace and love to you barry

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    To be clear, all users are required to supply their real names at registration and this information is made public.


    I don't know the details of what's happened so I can't really say. In addition to my comments earlier in this thread, as well my suggestion that a new market at The Barlow not be at the same time as the existing market unless that is done cooperatively, I'll add I am struck by not only the lack of transparency but also the harsh tone of lizzysweet/Nancy Prebilich's posts.

    Just as you suggest removal from this forum is the ultimate "punishment", it would seem that would apply to a vendor at a farmers market that doesn't play nice. So I think it would be within the market manager's prerogative to exclude such a vendor. Whether or not it was warranted is a another story.

    They shouldn't say anything that they are not willing to have their name associated with. The registration process requires their real name for their profile.

    There have been cases when people accuse/repost others of mis-deeds on WaccoBB and they use their real names. Since their report is true and their intent is not malicious nor self-interested, they are willing to be fully responsible for their communications. There is no telling what's true and what's not. The only check to be applied to provide "safety" is for people to be responsible for their communication.

    To turn the tables on you, what if some anonymous/fake user posted damning things (true or not) about you or The Barlow??

    WaccoBB.net is my attempt of holding a responsible and respectful public forum. It's not your typical online forum. My key tool is holding people responsible for what they post. I think that serves us all. There are plenty of internet sites, including the PD, where user comments are anonymous and libelous. At some point I'll make that distinction yet more apparent to protect the guilty .


    I hope you'l reconsider that. I have appreciated your posts, even if I haven't agreed with all of them. And I think we can be a very effective outreach to the community for you. I like to think you have used this service because users use it with integrity and respect. I'm just working to preserve that.

    Point taken, but plenty of people still speak out, and their comments carry more weight because they stand behind them.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-08-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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  33. TopTop #141
    fafner
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Barry has made clear that the identification of all participants in WACCO are indentified as to their real name. A couple of clicks and 'Bingo'. I don't know why some just cannot admit that is a fact and let it go. I see all this as like a political Party not admitting there was an election. What went on between the unhappy vendors and the management? For all I know they did not fit with how the Market was imagined. Maybe they were not the kind of people congenial with the vision of the Market. From their posts I think not.

    I know that the Market on Sunday at the Plaza is the most pleasant time I have spent in Sonoma County in over 30 years. People are pleasant and friendly. The vendors are plentiful and pleasant and helpful. The whole atmosphere is calming to my soul, and I leave with love in my heart for all I meet the next week. Someone has made that so. Who is that person?? It is my impression the market manager MIGHT have had something to do with it.

    I was offended when I read that Bret Martin had said that the Sunday Market on the Plaza was not welcome at the Barlow. I have not seen anyone refute that statement. Is it true that Bret Martin made that statement?? If so, that seems to me to be the end of the matter. Why beat the dead horse? If the Sunday Market is not welcome at the Barlow, I don't think I will be welcome either. I grew up in a time and place that had signs, saying: "Negroes are not welcome here". That did not mean, "Let's discuss this for 3 months". It meant Negroes were not welcome. Period. No discussion. I am not black, but I took offense at that statement then and I take offense at that statement now.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-08-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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  34. TopTop #142
    tezor's Avatar
    tezor
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Sorry Ernie, but I feel this is quite appropriate. As this is a privately moderated public forum, I support the outing of those less than honest. The internet allows many to speak without the fear of being called on their views. I believe you can say what you want, but you are responsible for your statements. As I have a big mouth, I've often had to eat my words when proved wrong, and rightly so. Hiding behind a false name negates your statement because you don't have any investment in the truth as you see it. I believe you can do what you want, but are 100% responsible for your actions. Advice I offered to my son at an early age. To offer anything else is political; possibly, but not necessarily honest. Getting to the bottom of who dun it, will lead to the light of truth, the state of the present economy is a classic example. While I support the Oyster Farm, I see both sides, and haven't gotten to a conclusion. These kind of tactics tip the scales without a clear understanding of the presented perspective. It's important to know your source. Repeat a lie often enough, and those that aren't willing to do the work of research will believe it. Elections seem to thrive on this as you well know. I don't question Barry's wisdom, nor his dedication to the task of holding peoples feet to the fire of truth. I APPLAUD it! Best wishes to all in keeping with the season. Bob Rozett
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  36. TopTop #143
    tezor's Avatar
    tezor
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Sorry Bret, speak and own your truth, I believe others have been called on the duplicity of using false names, and I expect if YOU speak it, YOU should own it. Bob Rozett

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    barry
    i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
    on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal. im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
    from unbiased moderator
    to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like. when topics are sensitive people
    are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
    your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
    i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
    frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
    im so sad you would do this to anyone..
    sincerely
    bret
    Last edited by Barry; 12-08-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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  38. TopTop #144
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    honesty? were the ladies outed for not being honest? not telling the truth? posting under an alias? being rude?
    A magical combination of which only a moderator is fit to pass judgment ?
    The truth is battered daily on this site,thats why i came here in the first place, to defend my truth against what i see as untruths. like about how im this new investor who doesnt want to support all the farmers. My Dad went to Analy and I sold the barlow to Barney and stayed in as a partner.
    just saying
    bret

    Quote tezor wrote: View Post
    Sorry Ernie, but I feel this is quite appropriate. As this is a privately moderated public forum, I support the outing of those less than honest.


    The internet allows many to speak without the fear of being called on their views. I believe you can say what you want, but you are responsible for your statements. As I have a big mouth, I've often had to eat my words when proved wrong, and rightly so. Hiding behind a false name negates your statement because you don't have any investment in the truth as you see it. I believe you can do what you want, but are 100% responsible for your actions. Advice I offered to my son at an early age. To offer anything else is political; possibly, but not necessarily honest. Getting to the bottom of who dun it, will lead to the light of truth, the state of the present economy is a classic example. While I support the Oyster Farm, I see both sides, and haven't gotten to a conclusion. These kind of tactics tip the scales without a clear understanding of the presented perspective. It's important to know your source. Repeat a lie often enough, and those that aren't willing to do the work of research will believe it. Elections seem to thrive on this as you well know. I don't question Barry's wisdom, nor his dedication to the task of holding peoples feet to the fire of truth. I APPLAUD it! Best wishes to all in keeping with the season. Bob Rozett
    Last edited by Barry; 12-08-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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  39. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  40. TopTop #145
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    hi
    Dont be wrongly offended..the Sunday market has been totally welcome all along at the Barlow.
    All they would have had to do is present themselves in such a way that we could allow them in without denying access to the disenfranchised farmers currently not allowed to participate in Sebastopol.That could have even included Paula if they could have mended fences and opened themselves to inclusiveness.

    Quote fafner wrote: View Post
    I was offended when I read that Bret Martin had said that the Sunday Market on the Plaza was not welcome at the Barlow.I have not seen anyone refute that statement. Is it true that Bret Martin made that statement?? If so, that seems to me to be the end of the matter. Why beat the dead horse? If the Sunday Market is not welcome at the Barlow, I don't think I will be welcome either. I grew up in a time and place that had signs, saying: "Negroes are not welcome here". That did not mean, "Let's discuss this for 3 months". It meant Negroes were not welcome. Period. No discussion. I am not black, but I took offense at that statement then and I take offense at that statement now
    btw..I have adopted chidren who are black and one from Ethiopia. I think the hint of comparison to "Jim Crow" laws with a farmers market manager who is merely reaping the fruits of her body of work is ..well...quite a stretch.
    African Americans were victims of pre-judice. My decision here has no pre-..Its a fair judgment based on my reserach
    and why don't you think the Barlow would welcome you? have you committed some crime that prevents you from being in public places? I'm confused
    bret
    :)
    Last edited by Barry; 12-08-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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  41. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  42. TopTop #146
    tezor's Avatar
    tezor
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Bret, I believe they were outed for not being honest about who they are. False names and multiple entries from one source, claiming to be several, is not transparent. It's a slippery slope to allow someone who fears to expose themselves to rebuke, to post under an alias "real" name. I don't know enough details other than Barry's statement, but having been called on my statements in the past by him, I trust his judgement. If I'm wrong, I'd like a little mustard to eat with my words. For now, I stand by my comments, if you have a problem with that so be it. At the least you know who I am, and where I stand. In peace, Bob Rozett
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  43. TopTop #147
    bret martin
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    thanks Bob , I feel you.But when do you think it was that Barry made the discovery that they were using aliases? And do you think there are others using aliases here? If not aliases I know many who use "puppets" for lack of a better word.When Paula handed out letters to her vendors telling them to speak out against the Barlow and allowed the vendors to operate under a flawed understanding about why they were not coming to the Barlow,did she create dishonest puppets who reached out to me ? They were misinformed and doing the bidding of another in my opinion.
    You know I've tried multiple times calling Paula and leaving messages and she, to this date has never returned any of my calls from day one.We did meet once but I often feel that she is communicating with me through proxies here? Am I just paranoid or should i do some identity searches here and google the real names of the posters here in a search along with paula downing and see ...oh gosh..there i go again..save some mustard for me Bob..:)
    bret


    Quote tezor wrote: View Post
    Bret, I believe they were outed for not being honest about who they are, false names and multiple entries for one source claiming to be several, is not transparent. It's a slippery slope to allow someone who fears to expose themselves to rebuke to post. I don't know enough details other than Barry's statement, but having been called on my statements in the past by him, I trust his judgement. If I'm wrong, I'd like a little mustard to eat with my words, but for now, I stand by my comments, if you have a problem with that so be it, but at the least you know who I am and where I stand. In peace, Bob Rozett
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  44. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  45. TopTop #148
    tezor's Avatar
    tezor
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Bret, my response has nothing to do with the market, just the generalities of this board. I haven't followed this thread and know little about it. Sorry that life sounds troubling but we make our choices, and it flows from there, often out of our control. I mean no disrespect, but I'm not involved in this particular issue, and have no position. Best of luck, Bob
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  46. Gratitude expressed by:

  47. TopTop #149
    treasure
    Guest

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Hi, Bret. Thank you for all of your posts, which have helped clarify the dispute and your and Barney's position.

    From the start, I have wanted the Sebastopol Farmers Market to remain in its current location. Though I sometimes enjoy large places with lots of activity, as the Barlow will be, most of the time I much prefer small and simple, which I see as beautiful.

    Should the original market stay where it is, I'll make it my "Home" market, and may occasionally visit the Barlow.

    I greatly appreciate Barry's insistence on transparency and civility on this site.

    Warm regards,
    Tara Treasurefield

    Quote bret martin wrote: View Post
    honesty? were the ladies outed for not being honest? not telling the truth? posting under an alias? being rude?
    A magical combination of which only a moderator is fit to pass judgment ?
    The truth is battered daily on this site,thats why i came here in the first place, to defend my truth against what i see as untruths. like about how im this new investor who doesnt want to support all the farmers. My Dad went to Analy and I sold the barlow to Barney and stayed in as a partner.
    just saying
    bret
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  48. Gratitude expressed by 6 members:

  49. TopTop #150
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
    Supporting Member

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    In response to the original question from way back when:

    As regular customers at the Sunday market on the square, Elizabeth and I would be very sad to see its presence or its vitality diminished.

    The idea of a collaboration in a same-day schedule seems, given the history described here, very unlikely. If the Barlow schedules a Sunday market, it appears inevitably that it'll be a direct competition. Would it were otherwise, but that seems to be the probability.

    My expertise is in theatre, not in retail marketing, but it would appear to be very bad public relations for the Barlow to schedule competitively (whatever the justification) and incite an inevitable community row — which, given this "conscious" but highly pugilistic community, would be inevitable.

    Personally, we'd find it wonderful to stop into a Saturday or weekday-evening market at the Barlow and to see how that evolves. I understand that there are all sorts of issues about vendors, other markets, etc., but since our opinions were graciously solicited, that's them.

    Cheers—
    Conrad Bishop & Elizabeth Fuller
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