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  1. TopTop #1
    The Barlow's Avatar
    The Barlow
     

    Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    The Barlow has been asked to make decisions on how best to go about having a Farmer's Market on our site. We want to hear from the community.

    What do you want to see at a Barlow's Farmer's Market?
    What day of the week?
    What time of the day?
    What type of vendors?
    What type of entertainment, if any?

    We appreciate your open and honest feedback.
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  2. Gratitude expressed by 5 members:

  3. TopTop #2
    ceni
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Night Market. Wednesday night. 6-10. Live local entertainment.
    I'd go. And I don't go to the Sunday morning ones.
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  5. TopTop #3
    Ernieman's Avatar
    Ernieman
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    It is important to support local growers. I hesitate to call them farmers as local farmers are too conservative and use too many chemicals. So natural and organic local growers are the who.
    Are we replacing or competing with the Sunday market? If competing, you have a problem. I would like to see it folded in and expanded. Maybe two days all day. Please no geegaws and crafts.
    Expand food in a smaller Oaxaca-like market and with international food.Try to respect Santa Rosa market days.
    Love the idea of promoting small bands and music groups of any kind.
    ernie carpenter
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  7. TopTop #4
    Conly's Avatar
    Conly
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    sorry I don't know what "geegaws" are, but why no local crafts? local woodturners, cheese makers, weavers using local wool,etc.... in the spring ,summer, fall there is more produce for farmers/growers to sell and maintain the market. In the winter crafts people have more product and opportunity to sell.. we need a balance to keep the F/M functioning all year round.
    Ultimately we all vote in the market place. Just don't buy what You don't want or like. Those businesses will go out...

    Quote Ernieman wrote: View Post
    It is important to support local growers. I hesitate to call them farmers as local farmers are too conservative and use too many chemicals. So natural and organic local growers are the who.
    Are we replacing or competing with the Sunday market? If competing, you have a problem. I would like to see it folded in and expanded. Maybe two days all day. Please no geegaws and crafts.
    Expand food in a smaller Oaxaca-like market and with international food.Try to respect Santa Rosa market days.
    Love the idea of promoting small bands and music groups of any kind.
    ernie carpenter
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  9. TopTop #5
    caverly's Avatar
    caverly
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Our current Sunday Farmer's market is probably the sweetest community gathering in all the U.S.A. - children , trees-grass , central music stage and so natural . The flow of people is so friendly and interacting - imo because the flow is like 'circular' {outer , inner and comingling circles } and always easily interweaving .

    If this ever comes to an end , i feel we will lose an incredible&beautiful way of being together and mingling with our friends , nature , music , children and the vendors .

    The Barlow { at this stage and probably later } looks very sterile , corporate , all linear , concrete - much less friendly ,less natural , no harmonious flow =industrial type design , designed for profit.

    i wish we can keep our beautiful Sunday Farmer's market the way it is ; i regret that chasing the all-mighty dollaris a reason that we may lose this magnificent quaint style of our gathering .

    Our market is a special treasure of our commonunity and being beautifully with our friends and neighbors - i hope we don't lose this treasure .

    i wonder if we really have a voice in this move , or if any body inquired what we want . My guess is that the vendors voted and that is the prime reason we are moving .
    Last edited by Barry; 10-24-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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  10. TopTop #6
    ceni
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    I should clarify: I "don't go" to the Sunday Farmer's market not because it's not a beautiful thing, it's just that Sundays are quite busy for me with other things. I traveled in Thailand, Indonesia and Vietnam and the night markets were exciting and quite the sights to see.

    I'd hate to see the Sunday market end or change in any way. I didn't read this as an either/or choice. That said, I'm sure this community can support two markets per week.
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  12. TopTop #7
    AllorrahBe's Avatar
    AllorrahBe
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Caverly, I do hope it's not as grim as your post makes it sound!

    Surely those who want to offer fresh local produce at the Barlow mean to do so IN ADDITION to our Sunday market? I, for one, cannot get to the Sunday market on the Plaza or the one at The French Market or anywhere else, at this point, without going into Santa Rosa on Saturday. So, a market one or two evenings a week, downtown, with great local entertainment and visiting groups and other kinds of performances would be a great addition to our whole downtown ambiance, which I certainly pray will eventually spread and permeate throughout The Barlow and the Pellini property.

    I vote for Monday and Friday. That way, fresh weekend harvest will be available at the beginning of the week and what's left over on Friday will be discounted and go into the soup pot over the weekend... a win-win-win- o, well, you get the point...

    ... and then that same "farmers market" Barlow space could be used by other vendors other days and nights and weekends (maybe selling one-of-a-kind made-in-Sebastopol "Genuine Gee-Gaws" and other handmade crafts, jars of jams and jellies, handmade baskets for produce, whatevers, and it could be a wonderful variety show of what we have to offer here in the heart of our community! Dancers will dance, musicians will make music, bakers will bake, and we can all (citizens and thousands of visitors from all parts of the globe) dance and sing and play among the streets of Sebastopol, from The Barlow property, Laguna Parkway, up past the theater to Occupy Sebastopol at the Plaza and Main Street and down Sebastopol Avenue to whatever creative and imaginative development finally manifests in our heart-center, the New Heart of Sonoma Center, and down the street to Peace in Medicine and Koffee Katz and then back across the street to The Barlow properties... or, others might just walk down to the Community Center, or visit the Laguna, or walk around to Rite-Aid or Safeway or Martha's Mexican Restaurant, or anyplace else in downtown Sebastopol.

    Then, all we need is a clean, efficient, but attractive and sustainable hospice (or something like it) to accommodate all of those visitors who will want to come and see what a great place we've made of our priceless jewel! Maybe somewhere on the Pellini property?

    Anyway, the point being, let's get a vision that brings all of our small businesses together in a sweet flow of success, on a map our downtown merchants will be proud to be part of and countless individuals and groups from other towns and cities will come here to gather inspiration and ideas to take back to their communities to implement before they, too, become Big Box Cities. And let's implement procedures NOW to prevent a CVS/Chase travesty in the future! If its necessary to change some rules or regulations somewhere along the way, so be it -- but let's get 'er done!

    Such a waste of valuable time and energy having all these contentious attitudes running rampant around our streets -- who wants to go walk around in that?!? Thanks CVS/Chase! Thanks Jamie Dimond!! Thanks, those who brought us to this! Thanks for the opportunity to "share" my opinions!

    The post about the trees, grass, flow of people, almost made me cry because it is so precious and so true and so very close to being gone and nobody but us can keep our downtown a loving community gathering place!

    Many Blessings!
    Rev. BE




    Quote caverly wrote: View Post
    Our current Sunday Farmer's market is probably the sweetest community gathering in all the U.S.A. -
    children , trees-grass , central music stage and so natural . The flow of people is so friendly and interacting - imo because the flow is like 'circular' {outer , inner and comingling circles } and always easily interweaving .

    If this ever comes to an end , i feel we will lose an incredible&beautiful way of being together and mingling with our friends , nature , music , children and the vendors .

    The Barlow { at this stage and probably later } looks very sterile , corporate , all linear , concrete - much less friendly ,
    less natural , no harmonious flow =industrial type design , designed for profit.

    i wish we can keep our beautiful Sunday Farmer's market the way it is ; i regret that chasing the all-mighty dollar
    is a reason that we may lose this magnificent quaint style of our gathering .
    Our market is a special treasure of our commonunity and being beautifully with our friends and neighbors - i hope we
    don't lose this treasure .

    i wonder if we really have a voice in this move , or if any body inquired what we want . My guess is that the vendors voted and that is the prime reason we are moving .
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  14. TopTop #8
    The Barlow's Avatar
    The Barlow
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    We have yet to decide on how we will move forward with a farmer's market. One of the major factors in our decision making is the feedback we receive from the community. So, please encourage others to join in on this conversation.

    We understand your impressions of The Barlow and hope over time we can shift your thoughts a bit. The objective of The Barlow is to create a lifestyle campus where local artisans, producers and community connect and inspire. This project was inspired by voices in the community. Although we cannot satisfy everyone's voice, we aim to listen and respect all feedback.

    We know The Barlow looks very concrete at this time, but there are plans to incorporate apple trees, other edible plants, culinary herbs, berries and more throughout the site.

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Quote caverly wrote: View Post
    Our current Sunday Farmer's market is probably the sweetest community gathering in all the U.S.A. -
    children , trees-grass , central music stage and so natural . The flow of people is so friendly and interacting - imo because the flow is like 'circular' {outer , inner and comingling circles } and always easily interweaving .

    If this ever comes to an end , i feel we will lose an incredible&beautiful way of being together and mingling with our friends , nature , music , children and the vendors .

    The Barlow { at this stage and probably later } looks very sterile , corporate , all linear , concrete - much less friendly ,
    less natural , no harmonious flow =industrial type design , designed for profit.

    i wish we can keep our beautiful Sunday Farmer's market the way it is ; i regret that chasing the all-mighty dollar
    is a reason that we may lose this magnificent quaint style of our gathering .
    Our market is a special treasure of our commonunity and being beautifully with our friends and neighbors - i hope we
    don't lose this treasure .

    i wonder if we really have a voice in this move , or if any body inquired what we want . My guess is that the vendors voted and that is the prime reason we are moving .
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  16. TopTop #9
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Thank you for using WaccoBB.net as way to reach the local community for feedback about a farmer's market at The Barlow!

    Can you please clarify the relationship between the farmer's market you are considering hosting and the existing Sebastopol Farmer's Market on Sunday's in the plaza?

    Is the proposal for that market to move to The Barlow and cease operating at the plaza on Sundays?
    Or for that market to continue as is and add an additional day of operations at The Barlow?
    Or are you looking at organizing a new market in addition to the sunday market?
    Or ???

    Thanks!


    Quote The Barlow wrote: View Post
    We have yet to decide on how we will move forward with a farmer's market. One of the major factors in our decision making is the feedback we receive from the community. So, please encourage others to join in on this conversation.


    Click banner for more info.
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  18. TopTop #10
    The Barlow's Avatar
    The Barlow
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Barry,

    All options you listed are a possibility. Apologies for being so vague, but our objective here is to listen and not get wrapped up in specifics at this time. We are open to all options. Once we have enough feedback we can start providing options or a more defined plan.

    Thank you for providing the forum to have this conversation.

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    Thank you for using WaccoBB.net as way to reach the local community for feedback about a farmer's market at The Barlow!

    Can you please clarify the relationship between the farmer's market you are considering hosting and the existing Sebastopol Farmer's Market on Sunday's in the plaza?

    Is the proposal for that market to move to The Barlow and cease operating at the plaza on Sundays?
    Or for that market to continue as is and add an additional day of operations at The Barlow?
    Or are you looking at organizing a new market in addition to the sunday market?
    Or ???

    Thanks!
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  20. TopTop #11
    Ernieman's Avatar
    Ernieman
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    I am totally up with this discussion and appreciate that Barlow is willing to have a public discussion. The term Farmer's Market leads one to conclude it rivals, resembles the current Sunday market in the square. Therefore, my comments were limited to that impression. It appears that the Barlow is imagining something broader in terms of a Farmer's Market. So, maybe this should be a broader discussion.

    My consideration is the broad support the current Sunday Market holds in the community. That needs to be maintained and transitioned if Barlow is going to offer the same kind of activities. Of course it can all exist in the same community. At the appropriate time perhaps WaccoBB and Barlow can sponsor a real time public discussion. We all want a positive community form and discussion is positive. A community brainstorm with no commitment except to listen! Ready when you are!

    Geegaws are "trinkets and baubles" usually made in China these days. Stuff you don't need. Local art is good. More art the better.
    Ernieman
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  22. TopTop #12
    Orm Embar's Avatar
    Orm Embar
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    I rarely make it to the Sunday market . . . too much to do at home and we're already out and about town Mon-Fri. I'm placing my response within the post below. In addition, I would like to see farmer's market prices that match the Santa Rosa market prices. I don't know how prices are set, but Sebastopol prices are higher for the same items from the same vendor. I've seen this repeatedly and finally asked a vendor that I purchase from at both markets. I found that Sebastopl vendors simply get to charge more due to the location. I know that many people have and/or choose to spend more to support local farmers in West County, but high prices mean local food is less accessible for many . . .especially elders on fixed income.

    : )

    Quote The Barlow wrote: View Post
    The Barlow has been asked to make decisions on how best to go about having a Farmer's Market on our site. We want to hear from the community.

    What do you want to see at a Barlow's Farmer's Market?
    What day of the week? Weekdays please! (or 1 weekend day and 1 weekday)
    What time of the day? 2 or 3pm until ?? Weekdays and daylight mean those of us who are less able to go out at night can do our shopping. This works well for families (after school pick-up) and for elders who walk/wheelchair/ride bus into town and rarely venture out after dark.
    What type of vendors? Local veggies, fruit, meat, diary, seafood, plant nurseries, knife sharpening, hot food. Occasionally I purchase a basket or ceramic piece for gifts but we don't have a whole lot of extra income for gift -y things.
    I have appreciated connecting with local animal fiber farmers but don't usually purchase from them at the market.
    I would purchase natural fiber fabrics from someone if the price was not too high. (cotton, linen, wool) This would save me a trip to the Bay Area Cities a couple times a year.

    What type of entertainment, if any? bring in apple-presses in August and October so we can all bring our apples in to do a big apple pressing party . . . music (as long as it's not too loud) . . .
    I don't really go to the market for hang-out time. I appreciate the Sunday market is a lovely community social event but I want to do marketing for goods to feed my family and don't have a lot of time for lounging around.


    We appreciate your open and honest feedback.
    ​Thanks for asking and listening!
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  24. TopTop #13
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow


    Allorrah Be,

    Surely you meant Hostel, and not Hospice? Unless there's something about the miraculous healing powers of Town, that I have not heard about...

    New Town Slogan, The Lourdes of West County!!

    Hell, why not, The Lourdes of The North Bay!!!

    Chimayo On The Laguna?


    Quote Allorrah Be wrote: View Post
    ...
    Then, all we need is a clean, efficient, but attractive and sustainable hospice (or something like it) to accommodate all of those visitors who will want to come and see what a great place we've made of our priceless jewel! Maybe somewhere on the Pellini property?
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  26. TopTop #14
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    I already have some alternate routes to avoid the downtown area at what are presently high traffic times.

    If the CVS/Chase juggernaut gets built, I won't be going to any farmer's market (or much of anything else) that's happening in that area; if the small businesses or farmers' markets expect to get more action as a result of CVS/Chase, they won't be getting it from me.
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  28. TopTop #15
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Quote caverly wrote: View Post
    The Barlow { at this stage and probably later } looks very sterile , corporate , all linear , concrete - much less friendly ,less natural , no harmonious flow =industrial type design , designed for profit.
    Yes, it does look sterile at the moment but I think it will be an attractive development once it's completed. Here's a rendering of the proposed area for the farmer's market (if I've got it right):

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    ywv
  30. TopTop #16
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Thanks for the clarification!

    If for no other reason than people hate change, my sense is that it would be best if the current Sunday market stays at the plaza. It seems to work really well and having the plaza there makes it quite sweet!

    It would seem "politically" good as well leave the sunday market there, so as not to explicitly reduce the focus on downtown, while establishing The Barlow as a destination.

    Adding an a mid week afternoon/evening market seems to make the most sense, but a Saturday market could also be good.

    I'd like to see it expand beyond produce to include LOCAL items of all sorts, along with tables for community groups and perhaps service providers, too.

    Quote The Barlow wrote: View Post
    Barry,

    All options you listed are a possibility. Apologies for being so vague, but our objective here is to listen and not get wrapped up in specifics at this time. We are open to all options. Once we have enough feedback we can start providing options or a more defined plan.

    Thank you for providing the forum to have this conversation.
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  32. TopTop #17
    AllorrahBe's Avatar
    AllorrahBe
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    I live on Bodega, and I'm totally boycotting "the Intersection" except twice a week when I have to go into Santa Rosa. I use 116 now for credit union, groceries, water machine, hardware/pet supplies, thrift store, auto parts, and ice cream... definitely NOT CVS/Chase!! I also go the other direction on 116 to my doctor, Curves, gas and groceries. So, there's precious little I must have from the downtown Heart of Sebastopol--except the

    May we all love each other through this unsettling time in our town!
    Rev. BE




    Quote Sara S wrote: View Post
    I already have some alternate routes to avoid the downtown area at what are presently high traffic times.

    If the CVS/Chase juggernaut gets built, I won't be going to any farmer's market (or much of anything else) that's happening in that area; if the small businesses or farmers' markets expect to get more action as a result of CVS/Chase, they won't be getting it from me.
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  34. TopTop #18
    hydrosouls's Avatar
    hydrosouls
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    As a supporter of local artists and crafts people, I would love to see more farmers' markets embrace them, especially those who make useful, organic items. When we used to go the the grocery store, we enjoyed the convenience of picking up our sundries there too. Now, if we shop at Farmers' markets, we have to make a host of other stops. Some of us don't have that sort of time. And, I would far prefer to get my home health care needs met at a farmers' market than at CVS!

    HydroSouls
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  36. TopTop #19
    Richard Nichols's Avatar
    Richard Nichols
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    There is a good chance CVS/Chase will not get built. For more information go to:
    Quote Sara S wrote: View Post
    I already have some alternate routes to avoid the downtown area at what are presently high traffic times.

    If the CVS/Chase juggernaut gets built, I won't be going to any farmer's market (or much of anything else) that's happening in that area; if the small businesses or farmers' markets expect to get more action as a result of CVS/Chase, they won't be getting it from me.
    Last edited by Barry; 10-26-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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  38. TopTop #20
    AllorrahBe's Avatar
    AllorrahBe
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    You are absolutely right!!! Forgive me!!!
    I did mean a hostel, not a hospice! But your post is priceless... thanks for turning
    my mistake into something hilarious!



    Quote Mad Miles wrote: View Post
    Allorrah Be,

    Surely you meant Hostel, and not Hospice? Unless there's something about the miraculous healing powers of Town, that I have not heard about...

    New Town Slogan, The Lourdes of West County!!

    Hell, why not, The Lourdes of The North Bay!!!

    Chimayo On The Laguna?



    Last edited by Barry; 10-26-2012 at 06:34 PM.
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  40. TopTop #21

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Could someone do an overarching explanation here? The Sebastopol Farmers Market is listed as a tenant on thebarlow.net so I'm a bit confused by this talk about The Barlow not knowing what direction it will be taking re: a farmers market. Did I miss something?

    Also, last I heard Rosso and Zazu were involved, too, but they are not listed as tenants.

    Clarification, please.
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  42. TopTop #22
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    This important thread got a little off track. Let's return it to the question at hand:

    Quote The Barlow wrote: View Post

    What do you want to see at a Barlow's Farmer's Market?
    What day of the week?
    What time of the day?
    What type of vendors?
    What type of entertainment, if any?

    We appreciate your open and honest feedback.
    Anybody else have any comments? Would you like to see it on a mid-week day or evening? Should local crafts be offerred? Should non-local (outside of Sonoma County) and/or non-organic produce be offered?
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  44. TopTop #23
    caverly's Avatar
    caverly
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Any time , as long as Sunday Market is left the way it is !
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  46. TopTop #24
    rgazzola's Avatar
    rgazzola
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Hi all,
    I'm a loyal Sunday am market goer though would support a mid-week market for needed items. My suggestions/input:
    • Wed or Thurs,
    • 4-7 pm,
    • organic vendors,
    • surrounding counties like Marin, Napa etc ok,
    • love any type of music,
    • crafts/soaps etc also good with me as I like to buy directly from the folks rather than go in a store. (Especially during the holiday season.)

    Thanks for asking

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    This important thread got a little off track. Let's return it to the question at hand:



    Anybody else have any comments? Would you like to see it on a mid-week day or evening? Should local crafts be offerred? Should non-local (outside of Sonoma County) and/or non-organic produce be offered?
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  48. TopTop #25
    Richard Nichols's Avatar
    Richard Nichols
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    Keep sunday.
    Add Friday evening with local music.
    Local produce and crafts emphasized. Absolutely no mass produced junk.
    Food and drink booths should provide ample tables.
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  49. Gratitude expressed by 6 members:

  50. TopTop #26
    karina77
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    I'd like to see the Farmer's market remain at the same day and time as it is now, with similar offerings of goods available , music and food for sale. It is important that the Sebastopol Farmer's Market retain its family friendly environment and that it support local farmers, artisans, etc.

    I sincerely hope that the Farmer's market will include an outdoor, smoke-free area and live music.

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    Anybody else have any comments? Would you like to see it on a mid-week day or evening? Should local crafts be offerred? Should non-local (outside of Sonoma County) and/or non-organic produce be offered?
    Last edited by Barry; 11-01-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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  52. TopTop #27

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    West Sonoma County needs and could support a mid-week farmers market. I think a Tuesday or Wednesday, 4 to 6:30 or 7 p.m., would be ideal, at a central location. It seems logical for the Sebastopol farmers market to take on the project, given that they have the infrastructure and a long record of success and expansion.

    It has been my understanding that the existing market has agreed to be part of The Barlow. But this thread is making me wonder, as it sounds, at times, like a reinvention of the wheel. Can anyone speak to this?

    Regarding the issue whether or not out-of-area farmers should be admitted, this is covered by certified farmers market regulations. A market cannot exclude a farm based solely on geography.
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  54. TopTop #28
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    My understanding is that the current Sunday market WANTS to expand into the Barlow to allow more room for more growers. I love the idea of an evening market - maybe that will encourage our downtown stores to stay open longer in the evening, so working people can shop there! Twice a week would be good - maybe one weekend day and one evening.

    What I DON'T want to see is that new Farmers market group that pushed the Original Market out of the Santa Rosa Vets bldg take over our Sebastopol Market. They are the ones that recently tried to have a market at the exact same time as our lovely existing market.

    I hope Paula Downing, who has tirelessly shepherded our market for all these years, will have a big voice in this.
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  55. TopTop #29
    applefan's Avatar
    applefan
     

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    we have the best farmers market already...in the plaza. it is carefully curated by Paula Downing to afford all the farmer participants an opportunity to make some money, by keeping a balance of merchants, never too many folks selling the same things. Our farmers market is a critical component of community building in Sebastopol. I do NOT want to see a farmers market at the Barlow. Our community is not large enough for another farmers market. this sounds fishy and familiar, as when another group tried to establish a competing market at the Vets building a few months ago. tThe Barlow will have wonderful and interesting producers renting there. Let the shoppers at the Sebastopol farm market, and the tourists, and those who don't shop at farm markets go over there and enjoy, any day of the week.

    Quote The Barlow wrote: View Post
    The Barlow has been asked to make decisions on how best to go about having a Farmer's Market on our site. We want to hear from the community.

    What do you want to see at a Barlow's Farmer's Market?
    What day of the week?
    What time of the day?
    What type of vendors?
    What type of entertainment, if any?

    We appreciate your open and honest feedback.
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  56. Gratitude expressed by 6 members:

  57. TopTop #30
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Farmer's Market at The Barlow

    The one very-wrong answer is to have a another market at The Barlow on Sundays. Please do not do that!
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