Starbucks zombies

[Bob S]

Should wake up and support local business

[tammatha]

Agreed Joes on the square has great coffee! I personally do not like Starbucks it is overated overpriced and too sugary.

Should wake up and support local business

[Praksys]

No need for personal insults. I am not a zombie and don't need someone telling me where to go and what to buy. Local is not always best and choices are good. What is your problem?

Should wake up and support local business

[Sebtown1968]

I echo the comments of Praksys,

As a long time owner of a local business, I can say that you should support us if you find us attractive for your needs. There is no reason to force some ethos (or insult those who don't share your particular view) on those who may find pleasure in a brand/business that is not locally based.

Taste is subjective and so is brand loyalty. While there are a myraid of wonderful local coffee brands in Sonoma County, there are plenty of people who enjoy the products, atmosphere of Sbux. Who are you to judge?

How about you focus on supporting local business since it is important to you, and lead by example? In addition, how about you respect the right of others to shop wherever they choose to shop as it is their right?

[Sebtown1968]

Bob,

Your accusation that Starbucks "imports low quality coffee produced by slave labor coffee farms" is wildly inaccurate as well as ridiculous. I have personally walked numerous coffee farms that Starbucks regularly purchases from as well as worked with the IISD (International Institute for Sustainable Development) who has conducted long term studies on their C.A.F.E practices program and can say with absolute certainty that Starbucks has never purchased coffee from a farm that has been involved in Slave Labor through their well-documented sourcing program.

After selling my part of Taylor Maid Farms, I began to focus my efforts more at coffee origin countries by working for a company that mills, exports and imports coffee in over 26 coffee producing countries. We currently import hundreds of thousands of pounds a year of coffee for Starubcks (as well as for companies such as Taylor Maid Farms, Flying Goat, Melody, etc. ) and can attest to the fact that Starbucks has never imported coffee through my company that has been involved in "Slave Labor" either.

I am all for letting people know the downsides of National/Multi-National businesses as long as the statements have an ounce of truth.

The onus is on you to prove your sensational claims.

Mark

[tammatha]

I'm haven't a clue where Starbucks gets their coffee, all I know is it tastes awful.

[Bird Watcher]

We should also remember that Starbucks are locally owned franchises; they are not corporate outlets. Like other franchises (e.g. Baskin Robbins), the owners often belong to Sebastopol civic groups, like the Chamber of Commerce, and volunteer time and resources to local programs and events.

[Bob S]

Not so!

We should also remember that Starbucks are locally owned franchises; they are not corporate outlets. Like other franchises (e.g. Baskin Robbins), the owners often belong to Sebastopol civic groups, like the Chamber of Commerce, and volunteer time and resources to local programs and events.

[jesswolfe]

https://franchises.about.com/od/most...-franchise.htm

Not so!

[tammatha]

One thing though you can say about Whole Foods is they sell some pretty great products that one cannot get commonly in most stores. Cannot say that about Starbucks. You can get better, less expensive coffee just about anywhere. I don't think Starbucks employess work any harder than WF employees either. There are cranky customers in all food establishments, grocery stores, etc.

As to how much the baristas get paid, and those who fall under the same category that they fall under, customer service, the answer is NOT ENOUGH. Is this a situation unique to SB? No. Is this unique to large corporations? No. Is this unique to locally owned small business? No. So, really, what's your point about creating low paying jobs?

Further, have you checked out the hourly pay for other entry level customer service jobs across the corporate continuum? Across the small business continuum? From my own personal experience in this field, there is always a range, whether it's small business or corporate. The key is finding those few companies that pay the most -- if pay is your bottom line. And they aren't always the "best" in the other ways that you and I might think.

For example, when I lived in Tucson, Whole Foods from Austin TX bought out a large grocery store and the employees were ecstatic because they started making 3 dollars more an hour. Well, the other organic grocery store was more affordable to shop at and had a better selection. Is Whole Foods a good company, an ethical company? I don't think so. It can get a little complex, can't it? In the corporate world, you're going to find a range, with many paying the least amount they feel they can get away with. And in the small business world you're going to find a range. It's all called customer service, one of the feminized professions, and therefore low pay. Doesnt matter that the baristas are skilled -- and it should matter. ( Just contrast what they do to what a bartender does and earns!! )

By the way, have you noticed how hard the SB baristas have to work compared to the other guys? The higher standard of professional behavior? And in spite of that, the malarkey they have to take from piggy customers? What can SB management do to correct that last part of the job? So let's also talk about, in the same breath, the ethics and morality of customers: are they better or worse at small business establishments? Is it not a cultural problem? I just perused this blog that may be of interest www.baristas.livejournal.com/ ...I'd also like to add: Today is MY SECOND DAY COFFEE FREE. YAY! Reclaiming recall of my REM sleep and creating a habit of drinking fair trade black tea quietly at home.

[Attic]

O great! Thanks all of you... now I am fiending for a cup of coffee. We have a good selection of coffee locally. I drink at the locally owned coffee houses and also at Starbucks. Coffee is like wine and there is room for many types local or not.

[Praksys]

Bob S Not so!

Global IS Local

It is all to easy and in vogue to be cynical and inflammatory in regard to commenting and describing the behavior of others in our ever-shrinking world. For some it is thrilling sport to call someone a zombie – agitating the astral life in others. When pointing a finger just remember, there are three more pointing back at you.

I can understand why Bob S would choose a local coffee shop over a national chain (not a franchise). Good show. I choose differently and with considerable thought. While my favorite coffee establishment may be Hardcore, for various reasons I now choose to frequent Starbucks. In the future I am sure I will move around again. I also regularly have events at Coffee Catz that pulls in extra business on a normally slow night. People have different tastes. I like espresso drinks and not brewed coffee. I feel free to choose and do so thoughtfully.

We are all hypocrites when it comes to purchasing perfectly ‘sustainable’; we pick and choose our own hypocrisy’s and see each other’s all to clearly.

For example, I am sure that you don’t drive a car made by a large corporation or use fuel not produced by an international oil company. And of course, you replace your vehicles alternator with one that is locally made. It is a good thing that every stitch of clothing you wear comes from Sonoma County – right? Is Napa local? Is Sacramento local? Would you propose that people not drive to Sebastopol in order to purchase what they like? Should I avoid flying to environmental and sustainability conferences because I am utilizing a non-local giant corporation to do so? Flying somewhere increases one’s carbon footprint considerably. But my work is worthy so it’s ok?

The employees at Starbucks spend their money locally even if some of the surplus goes back to Seattle. Is Seattle local? A local company may produce a surplus (profit) but invests it in a mutual fund that is not really local. When doing a Google search are you supporting a local company or is the computer being used made locally? By the way, if no one made a profit - a surplus - there would not be any ‘gift’ money in the world. The more we are able to understand the concept and reality of differentiated money the sooner we will be able to manage the economy instead of the economy managing us. Money and accounting are social tools for managing the economy so it can work for all of us and not a few. What is money?

Local has gone global and it CAN be transformed into ‘sustainable and resilient’ if we can think different and imagine larger than our immediate circumstances. We’re all in it together, the 99% AND the 1%!
D. O.

[Barry]

First, I appreciate that you have the courage of your convictions, Daniel, and are willing to put them out where they may be challenged.

I want to point out a problem with your rationale, in that there are no local car manufacturers, nor alternator makers, nor oil companies. There may be a few "local" clothing manufacturers, such as Indigenous Designs, but they no longer sell men's clothes andthere is no place that I know off were you can see/shop a wide selection of locally made clothes.

Clearly it is a murky topic. Many companies are some blend of local and non-local. For instance, while Indigenous Designs is a local company, their clothes are actually made elsewhere. However your example of Starbucks vs Hardcore/Coffee Cats couldn't be more clear. And yes, all their beans are non-local.

To say "Local is Global" is to completely invalidate the notion of shopping local, which I do think is rather important (especially banking local).

Care to say more about "differentiated money"? And this:

Local has gone global and it CAN be transformed into ‘sustainable and resilient’ if we can think different and imagine larger than our immediate circumstances.

And, No, Seattle is not local.

Bob S Not so!

Global IS Local

It is all to easy and in vogue to be cynical and inflammatory in regard to commenting and describing the behavior of others in our ever-shrinking world. For some it is thrilling sport to call someone a zombie – agitating the astral life in others. When pointing a finger just remember, there are three more pointing back at you.

I can understand why Bob S would choose a local coffee shop over a national chain (not a franchise). Good show. I choose differently and with considerable thought. While my favorite coffee establishment may be Hardcore, for various reasons I now choose to frequent Starbucks. In the future I am sure I will move around again. I also regularly have events at Coffee Catz that pulls in extra business on a normally slow night. People have different tastes. I like espresso drinks and not brewed coffee. I feel free to choose and do so thoughtfully.

We are all hypocrites when it comes to purchasing perfectly ‘sustainable’; we pick and choose our own hypocrisy’s and see each other’s all to clearly.

For example, I am sure that you don’t drive a car made by a large corporation or use fuel not produced by an international oil company. And of course, you replace your vehicles alternator with one that is locally made. It is a good thing that every stitch of clothing you wear comes from Sonoma County – right? Is Napa local? Is Sacramento local? Would you propose that people not drive to Sebastopol in order to purchase what they like? Should I avoid flying to environmental and sustainability conferences because I am utilizing a non-local giant corporation to do so? Flying somewhere increases one’s carbon footprint considerably. But my work is worthy so it’s ok?

The employees at Starbucks spend their money locally even if some of the surplus goes back to Seattle. Is Seattle local? A local company may produce a surplus (profit) but invests it in a mutual fund that is not really local. When doing a Google search are you supporting a local company or is the computer being used made locally? By the way, if no one made a profit - a surplus - there would not be any ‘gift’ money in the world. The more we are able to understand the concept and reality of differentiated money the sooner we will be able to manage the economy instead of the economy managing us. Money and accounting are social tools for managing the economy so it can work for all of us and not a few. What is money?

Local has gone global and it CAN be transformed into ‘sustainable and resilient’ if we can think different and imagine larger than our immediate circumstances. We’re all in it together, the 99% AND the 1%!
D. O.

[Webb Pierce]

I wonder how sucessful Peets Coffee has to be before it becomes the target of those that feel they are doing too well and therefore may not be worthy of the privilige of doing business in Sebastopol.

[Praksys]

Response to Barry - Global IS Local by Daniel O.

Differentiated Money: How Can the Financial Economy Be Tamed?

Global Village
For me, the value of buying local is one of degree. I feel that it is over sold and does not reflect the modern economic conditions that prevail. Cars, alternators, oil, clothing and numerous other items are examples of the reality of the global village we all share. Of course you can’t buy these locally. That is the point!

I buy locally when it is appropriate. Banking locally, perhaps. Why do we need banks at all? If we all would take more time and effort to understand the nature of money and credit, cash and capital we could localize exchange money and loan money. The ultimate ‘local’ is the individual, right?

Some people get around more than others. For my parents, greater Grand Rapids, MI is definitely local for them. I have other friends that travel a lot. For example, I know someone that has both business ties and family from California to Vancouver and places in between. For them, Seattle IS local.

Citizenized Banking
Gigantic computer mainframes requiring experts evolved to powerful personal microcomputers usable by everyone. Gigantic central banks creating money and credit requiring experts are evolving to powerful personal micro banks usable by everyone. Fundamentally speaking, money is emitted when individuals are in the process of meeting each other’s needs through exchange; credit is created when individuals are recognized as they take initiative. Everyone is a bank!

Accounting and money are two sides of the same coin where one is the inner and the other is the outer aspect. Two kinds of money, means of exchange and store of value, are reflected in the two categories of accounts – income and expense accounts and balance sheet accounts. The consciousness of how to balance and coordinate the two makes for a third kind of money or account that is of a higher order – gift money or the golden moment of closing entries.

Economics Beyond The Market, Beyond the State
These days, isn’t it up to individuals to take responsibility for the economy and their effects on each other and the environment? Human relations drive economic life, not market forces or the state. Don’t we need to take others into account in economic life and not just self-interest? It may not be widely known yet, but there is a need for a language specific to economics that is apt for reflecting the value of goods and services circulating between us in the world. As Jeff Gates writes in ‘The Ownership Solution – Our economy is doing a lousy job of sharing the wealth. There’s a better way’, “Money is the medium by which the economic system communicates with its participants.” As we become more economically and financially literate however, money becomes the medium by which the participants communicates with the economic system! The evolution of money and accounting makes for an enlightening story seen and understood in the context of history and the evolution of human consciousness. It is well worth the effort.

Three Kinds or Functions of Money (Accounting)
As we entered a global economy no longer restricted by national boundaries (think 1922 and J. M. Keynes statement), discerning three kinds or functions of money became the key to managing the economy where disconnected freely roaming capital needs to be reigned in and harness to benefit the many and not just the few. Means of exchange, store of value and unit of account are classic descriptions of the functions of money, but there is more to it. In other words, purchase money, loan money (includes equity) and gift money, when differentiated and understood, gives individuals a social tool allowing us to perceive the economy and our actions that were previously invisible and unconscious. An interesting turning point with the economy took place just after the Napoleonic Wars (1810-15). The money markets began to emancipate themselves from the so-called, ‘real economy’. Today, this phenomenon is pronounced and begs us for a solution. The occupy movement rightly points to this as a significant problem to be resolved and made to serve human beings rather than enslave them. Just as a little monetary anecdote: How we determine who is in the ‘99%’ and who makes up the ‘1%’ is telling. One way is by how much money one makes in a year and the other is by how much net worth one has accumulated. This is Means of Exchange money and Store of Value money, or in accounting terms: Income & Expense money and Balance Sheet money.

Check out my website sometime if you are interested: Associative Economics Café.
July 20, 2012

First, I appreciate that you have the courage of your convictions, Daniel, and are willing to put them out where they may be challenged.

I want to point out a problem with your rationale, in that there are no local car manufacturers, nor alternator makers, nor oil companies. There may be a few "local" clothing manufacturers, such as Indigenous Designs, but they no longer sell men's clothes andthere is no place that I know off were you can see/shop a wide selection of locally made clothes.

Clearly it is a murky topic. Many companies are some blend of local and non-local. For instance, while Indigenous Designs is a local company, their clothes are actually made elsewhere. However your example of Starbucks vs Hardcore/Coffee Cats couldn't be more clear. And yes, all their beans are non-local.

To say "Local is Global" is to completely invalidate the notion of shopping local, which I do think is rather important (especially banking local).

Care to say more about "differentiated money"? And this:


And, No, Seattle is not local.

[Barry]

Thanks for the reply, Daniel, though I don't think I got anything out of this. Anybody else understand this?

Response to Barry - Global IS Local by Daniel O.

Differentiated Money: How Can the Financial Economy Be Tamed?

Global Village
...
Citizenized Banking
...
Economics Beyond The Market, Beyond the State
...
Three Kinds or Functions of Money (Accounting)
...
Check out my website sometime if you are interested: Associative Economics Café.

[Praksys]

Too bad it's important Barry Time for all of us to step up a bit and stretch!

Thanks for the reply, Daniel, though I don't think I got anything out of this. Anybody else understand this?

[tammatha]

Nope, didn't understand it either, felt like a bit of a mental tangent.

Thanks for the reply, Daniel, though I don't think I got anything out of this. Anybody else understand this?

[Praksys]

Thanks for the reply, Daniel, though I don't think I got anything out of this. Anybody else understand this?

If one does not succeed, try try again:

Hi Barry,
I am wondering: Are you are a little to dismissive regarding my posting about buying local and talking about money? I will limit myself to three (3) items and keep it simple. Does this work?

1)
(From Barry) I want to point out a problem with your rationale, in that there are no local car manufacturers, nor alternator makers, nor oil companies.
(From Daniel) There is not a problem with my rationale Barry, you just did not ‘get’ the point I am making. The point is not that one should buy major items locally, of course not. The point is that many things we need are only available globally, i. e. cars, alternators, oil, and numerous other items. Always buying locally is not practical and should not be turned into a religion.

2)
(From Barry) Care to say more about "differentiated money"?
(From Daniel) Understanding the true nature of money requires torque in one’s thinking. It takes effort and learning some history of money. You asked me about what I meant by differentiated money so I attempted to oblige.

3)
(From Barry) And, No, Seattle is not local.
(From Daniel) For some people Seattle is local. People should be free to decide for themselves what is local and what is not. Don’t you think?

[Barry]

See my comments below.

If one does not succeed, try try again:

Hi Barry,
I am wondering: Are you are a little to dismissive regarding my posting about buying local and talking about money? I will limit myself to three (3) items and keep it simple. Does this work?

1)
(From Barry) I want to point out a problem with your rationale, in that there are no local car manufacturers, nor alternator makers, nor oil companies.
(From Daniel) There is not a problem with my rationale Barry, you just did not ‘get’ the point I am making. The point is not that one should buy major items locally, of course not. The point is that many things we need are only available globally, i. e. cars, alternators, oil, and numerous other items. Always buying locally is not practical and should not be turned into a religion.

(From Barry) Ok thanks for clarifying.

2)
(From Barry) Care to say more about "differentiated money"?
(From Daniel) Understanding the true nature of money requires torque in one’s thinking. It takes effort and learning some history of money. You asked me about what I meant by differentiated money so I attempted to oblige.

Thanks for trying. Apparently I'm not torqued enough.

3)
(From Barry) And, No, Seattle is not local.
(From Daniel) For some people Seattle is local. People should be free to decide for themselves what is local and what is not. Don’t you think?

(From Barry) Certainly. I was speaking lightly. In thinking about it a bit more, "local" is relative, and in this case it would relative to the other viable options. So since you can't buy an alternator designed and built in Sebastopol or even Sonoma County, Seattle may indeed be "local" if the only other options are ones from Japan and China.

On the other hand, while you are "free to decided for [you]self" that Starbucks is "local", I'm free to disagree with you, especially considering their are other options that are decidedly "more local"!

[CSummer]

Daniel wrote: "The point is that many things we need are only available globally, i. e. cars, alternators, oil, and numerous other items. Always buying locally is not practical and should not be turned into a religion."

Maybe the issue is not so much where our stuff comes from as what we're supporting by acquiring it. And I question the "need" for cars, alternators, oil, etc. How many thousands of years have humans lived quite well without these things? And in the age of solar-powered vehicles - the viability of which has been demonstrated locally more than once, it's worth questioning how much we really need to import products that degrade the environment (e.g., fossil fuels and machines that burn them).

And by the way, at least one local company has designed - and at least partially built - alternating current generators (i.e., alternators).

If we're willing to question what we think we need and look at all the possible ways we could meet our real needs, we might find that we can live in ways that are far simpler and less burdensome on the environment. True, this won't work well in an economic system that depends on waste and thrives on addictive behavior. But perhaps it's time we replace this sick and destructive system with one that serves real human needs in sustainable ways.

So as we sip our Starbuck's coffee, let's ponder the questions: What are we really doing here? What constitutes - and what do we really need for - a "good life?" Is our attachment to old ways of doing things keeping us from having the quality life we long for?

CSummer

If one does not succeed, try try again:

Hi Barry,
I am wondering: Are you are a little to dismissive regarding my posting about buying local and talking about money? I will limit myself to three (3) items and keep it simple. Does this work?

1)
(From Barry) I want to point out a problem with your rationale, in that there are no local car manufacturers, nor alternator makers, nor oil companies.
(From Daniel) There is not a problem with my rationale Barry, you just did not ‘get’ the point I am making. The point is not that one should buy major items locally, of course not. The point is that many things we need are only available globally, i. e. cars, alternators, oil, and numerous other items. Always buying locally is not practical and should not be turned into a religion.

2)
(From Barry) Care to say more about "differentiated money"?
(From Daniel) Understanding the true nature of money requires torque in one’s thinking. It takes effort and learning some history of money. You asked me about what I meant by differentiated money so I attempted to oblige.

3)
(From Barry) And, No, Seattle is not local.
(From Daniel) For some people Seattle is local. People should be free to decide for themselves what is local and what is not. Don’t you think?