Sound levels at local music venues: Too Loud, Not Loud Enough or Just Right?

[Barry]

I went the Hopmonk last night for Dginn and Diego's Umbrella. It was a good show, but I needed to leave early because I found the sound level unbearable, which has also happened on other occasions there. I'm an old Deadhead and like my music louder than most people, but this was painful, even with some napkin bits in my ears. It's a pity because it's a great room and they have real good shows. There's still the marvelous outdoor space (which they keep pleasantly warm), but then your not in the show.

I find the Tradewinds consistently way too loud as well. I don't remember being uncomfortable at Aubergine or the Forestville Inn, or the Last Day Saloon, so I presume they were OK with me.

Sweat Your Prayers, and other DJ'd dances generally seem fine to me.

The main stage at Harmony and the Techno Tribal are also unbearable for me, but the Goddess Grove is just right!

Note that many people confuse loudness with distortion. It's quite possible to have crystal clear sound that is way too loud, and sound that could still be louder, but the sound system starts having a blaring quality because the system can't handle it.

So what's your experience with the sound level at our wonderful and plentiful local venues?? Do you avoid certain venues because they are often too loud?

I'll include a poll so you can register your opinion with just a click, but it would better if you would also chime in with some comments.

I've suggested to the Hopmonk that they declare some of the boomer-friendly shows to be limited to 110 decibels (after which hearing loss occurs). Would that make it more likely that you would go? Maybe they could coupled with a Wacco event?

BTW, you can get a free decibel meter for your iPhone here. It maxes out at 110. I'd love to see some measurements from some local shows.

Please take a moment to let us know what you think!


Barry

[Dixon]

Speaking as a guy who probably has some permanent hearing impairment from years of painfully loud concerts, I support your addressing this issue. But I can't recall a local Sonoma County venue being loud enough to bother me--though it's true that I haven't scraped up enough $$ to catch local shows much in awhile. I saw Mark Growden and another (acoustic) band at the Hopmonk a few months ago, and had no problem with the volume. And in 2010 when I saw Zappa Plays Zappa at the Harmony Festival, again the volume seemed fine to me. This volume problem may be related to what particular sound man/woman is twiddling the knobs for what particular band. In my experience, people's cigarette smoke is much more likely to ruin the evening for me than is volume. If I encounter a volume problem at a local venue any time soon, I'll try to remember to mention it here.

I went the Hopmonk last night for Dginn and Diego's Umbrella. It was a good show, but I needed to leave early because I found the sound level unbearable, which has also happened on other occasions there. I'm an old Deadhead and like my music louder than most people, but this was painful, even with some napkin bits in my ears. It's a pity because it's a great room and they have real good shows. There's still the marvelous outdoor space (which they keep pleasantly warm), but then your not in the show.

I find the Tradewinds consistently way too loud as well. I don't remember being uncomfortable at Aubergine or the Forestville Inn, or the Last Day Saloon, so I presume they were OK with me.

Sweat Your Prayers, and other DJ'd dances generally seem fine to me.

The main stage at Harmony and the Techno Tribal are also unbearable for me, but the Goddess Grove is just right!

Note that many people confuse loudness with distortion. It's quite possible to have crystal clear sound that is way too loud, and sound that could still be louder, but the sound system starts having a blaring quality because the system can't handle it.

So what's your experience with the sound level at our wonderful and plentiful local venues?? Do you avoid certain venues because they are often too loud?

I'll include a poll so you can register your opinion with just a click, but it would better if you would also chime in with some comments.

I've suggested to the Hopmonk that they declare some of the boomer-friendly shows to be limited to 110 decibels (after which hearing loss occurs). Would that make it more likely that you would go? Maybe they could coupled with a Wacco event?

BTW, you can get a free decibel meter for your iPhone here. It maxes out at 110. I'd love to see some measurements from some local shows.

Please take a moment to let us know what you think!


Barry

[Sereniti]

Thanks for bringing this up Barry! That's awesome that we can talk about it AND actually do something.

I got a solid bang on my head a few years back that makes me very sensitive to sound, especially indoors because the sound has no where to escape and really can rattle you, physically. I don't go to indoor venues for that reason. Techno-tribal being the biggest offender, even with earmuffs for the shooting range covered in fur!!!!!

I agree with the Harmony mainstage being disagreeably loud and distorted. Those were some top performers too... such a shame. Hopefully they can improve that for next year.

[rossmen]

i am very careful about sound level because of working for decades in construction and knowing many partially deaf carpenters and musicians. theater movies are often too loud for me. most amplified music shows as well. i am quite skilled at fashioning earplugs out of tp.

90 decibles is more like the max for me. when you start having hearing loss you have fried 7 out of 10 inner ear nerve endings, used up the extra capacity.

[sambacat]

We are on the same page as you, Barry. I loved dancing to Dgiin at the Hopmonk last night, and was really looking forward to Diego's Umbrella, but when they started playing, we started edging back farther and farther from the speakers til we were dancing back along the side of the bar and then just leaving early. Ouch! I find Aubergine fine and have not actually noticed the unbearable decibel level @ Hopmonk til last night. Main Stage and Tribal Techno @ Harmony way too loud, Goddess Stage and the little indoor venue good.
Great idea to get community feedback and pass it on to the venues we love and appreciate so much!

[Anja11]

The last three shows I've seen at Hopmonk were ALL TOO LOUD ... and I really like loud music! I'm with you, napkin or toilet paper in my ears is less than ideal, while I like to feel the bass drum in my body, my ears don't like the abuse. Still had ringing in them when I went to bed, even with the napkin-sound-proofing after this Saturday's show.

[Tristique]

Barry,

I have to agree...I am so sensitive to sound and noise and avoid or leave a concert or show if the level gets too high.
It is so unnecessary...the only place the sound should be turned up is at a huge outdoor event. The sound becomes so distorted when it's up too high, but it's like the musicians don't notice. I know that in some instances, the band will do a sound check before the show, but during it, one or more of the players can't hear themselves over the crowd so they turn themselves up...a little more...and more, as the crowd gets bigger.

They could easily fix this if they take responsibility and decide to go easy on the crowd. They could agree to implement a SAFE DECIBELS LEVELS and agree to not stress the ears of the audience and not exceed a certain level appropriate to the size of the room they are playing. If they told the audience they are going to keep the volume at a moderate level and that if people want to spare their ears and prevent them from turning up the amps to drown out the chatter, they'll need to go outside for conversations or yelling or screaming, or over-the-top expressions of Glee. Besides, it is extremely damaging to the vocal chords to try to talk over a loud crowd plus a loud band. And, I assume it could also contribute to hearing loss over time.

It really is time to address this since we are a community that advocates for health and green principles.

Trish Mairet, MA

http://www.voicevamp.com

[gavio]

I know my hearing is more sensitive than most people's, but I've been finding that I pretty much don't go to anything any more - it seems even house concerts are amped up way too high these days for me. Why music needs to be amplified at all inside a living room escapes me - I mean we're talking about a space where normal conversation can be heard across the room.

And public venues are off the charts. Ear plugs, because they block higher frequencies way more effectively than lower ones, distort the sound coming in so the listening pleasure is diminished to where it becomes sort of pointless, and certainly not worth paying money for.

I guess it's a symptom of some kind of mass desensitization due to the rapid escalation of ambient noise everywhere - ambient noise decibel levels in major metropolitan areas now range around 70-80, around the same level as a human singing loudly only 3 feet away.......

I dunno, but it's all too loud for this boy.

Thanks for opening up the conversation about this, Barry.

Gavio

[theindependenteye]

I agree with Gavio. And not everybody does it wrong -- Jennie O's house concert with David Rovics was great -- unamplified, and he kept his guitar work in perfect balance with his voice. FANTASTIC concert, by the way. Thanks, Jennie!

[occihoff]

I always find the noise level at any event way too loud, but as usual I generally find myself in the minority and just have to live with it. I protect myself by bringing earplugs, and even then the noise level is just at the barely endurable level for me. Why does almost everybody seem to crave such incredible decible levels?

I have a theory that people are generally so inhibited that they need to be blasted into action in order to dance. Even then most people seem pretty inhibited to me.

Also we have the incessant noise of autos, trucks, and loud machines of all kinds, and people become habituated to the constant racket. Often when people come to my neighborhood in the Occidental redwoods they exclaim about how quiet it is, even though I live on Bittner Road, which has fairly regular traffic that makes more noise than I would prefer. But sometimes when I go to the back meadow there are minutes of complete silence that are like a rare and healing elixer to me. I wonder how many of us are going to develop hearing loss, like airline pilots and others whose occupations involve constant high noise levels.

[Big Bob]

Thanks for bringing this issue up Barry. I have worked in noisy metalworking venues all my life, but I have taken to carrying ear plugs to protect myself from the overly loud music venues in the last few months. Recently I mentioned it to one of the musicians at the Tradewinds, and they toned it down to a reasonable level. I have never done that before, but I loved the music, and didn't want to have to leave if I could create a change. It was worth it! I think it was interesting that at the tree-a-thon fundraiser at the Laguna Foundation they were providing ear plugs at the door! Someone had the good sense to protect people in the audience since the venue had no sound dampening. Too bad all venues don't offer the same thing.....

I thank you for providing the decibel meter. It will help immensely in determining my safety, and give me a basis for asking for change in the future.

Thanks for a real contribution to our community that can be measured!

Big Bob

I went the Hopmonk last night for Dginn and Diego's Umbrella. It was a good show, but I needed to leave early because I found the sound level unbearable, which has also happened on other occasions there. I'm an old Deadhead and like my music louder than most people, but this was painful, even with some napkin bits in my ears. It's a pity because it's a great room and they have real good shows. There's still the marvelous outdoor space (which they keep pleasantly warm), but then your not in the show.

I find the Tradewinds consistently way too loud as well. I don't remember being uncomfortable at Aubergine or the Forestville Inn, or the Last Day Saloon, so I presume they were OK with me.

Sweat Your Prayers, and other DJ'd dances generally seem fine to me.

The main stage at Harmony and the Techno Tribal are also unbearable for me, but the Goddess Grove is just right!

Note that many people confuse loudness with distortion. It's quite possible to have crystal clear sound that is way too loud, and sound that could still be louder, but the sound system starts having a blaring quality because the system can't handle it.

So what's your experience with the sound level at our wonderful and plentiful local venues?? Do you avoid certain venues because they are often too loud?

I'll include a poll so you can register your opinion with just a click, but it would better if you would also chime in with some comments.

I've suggested to the Hopmonk that they declare some of the boomer-friendly shows to be limited to 110 decibels (after which hearing loss occurs). Would that make it more likely that you would go? Maybe they could coupled with a Wacco event?

BTW, you can get a free decibel meter for your iPhone here. It maxes out at 110. I'd love to see some measurements from some local shows.

Please take a moment to let us know what you think!


Barry

[SueC]

About the sound levels, I believe that it depends on who is playing. Back in the day, it was virtually IMPOSSIBLE for Jerry G. to play too loud. The louder he played, the more welcoming the brain and ears became to his sweet sounds.

Yes, for the most part, the sound is too loud and distorted at local venues, both inside and out, but I am not sure the discordance is all the soundman's fault...

The David Nelson Band was just fine; RR Jazz & Blues Fest. was REALLY distorted, as was the fireworks fundraiser in Guerneville's Vet's Hall.

I no longer buy tickets to bands where there is a large chance that it's going to suck. This limits what I see & hear live, but at least I don't have my experience WRECKED by bulls__t and incompetence.

[jbox]

When I was much younger I went to alot of shows at the Fillmore and Winterland and even as a teenager I wondered why the sound had to be so cranked you couldn't hear the music (???) It just seemed so counter-productive. Sometimes the volume was appropriate and my enjoyment was enhanced. I think the bands played really loud so folks in the back could enjoy the music at a concert level loud volume which meant that folks in front had to endure unsafe decibel levels. In 1991 I went to see the Dead in Oakland and came away with permanent ringing in my ears and some hearing loss. I don't see much live rock music any more and one of the reasons is the volume is way too high. I want to enjoy the show not have it blow me away or pave me over. Are you listening, Hopmonk?

[Larry Robinson]

For some of us who live within 6 blocks of Hopmonk, the music on Saturday nights is often so loud that we hear it in our homes even with windows and doors closed. As someone with hearing loss from working in a steel mill and from too many rock concerts, I worry about people on the floor at venues like Hopmonk.

["Mad" Miles]

I was a regular in the LA/Long Beach/Orange County Rock and World Music scene from '77-'84. Eventually I learned to make earplugs from cocktail napkins. Subsequent hearing tests noted high frequency hearing loss on both sides, the left being more damaged. (I used to hang on the left end of the stage, i.e. stage right, in front of the speaker columns where the noise cleared people out a little and there was room to dance.)

In the fall of '09 I noticed a sudden diminution in my hearing on my left side. I cup my hands to my ears in movie theaters and conversations. I haven't had it tested, cause I've no insurance. And I'm pretty sure what the cause is. There is no cure. (I made sure it wasn't just impacted ear wax.)

Sooooo, I don't go out all that much these days. Money, burnt out on the club scene, cocooning. But if the sound is too loud, people need to talk to the club owners.

I was tempted to choose the last item in the poll, because as much as I read and hear complaints about patrons, there were far more louts in the LA/SoCa Punk scene than I've encountered anywhere else, or since. Those guys would beat the crap out of you for just looking at them and send you to the hospital. Thankfully most of that went by the wayside as people got sick of it and made them unwelcome in terms they could understand.

[Malarkey]

Interesting...

As the talent buyer and events director of HopMonk the single largest compliment we get is about how good it sounds in that room. Thats coming from international bands that have toured relentlessly for decades, sound engineers that have mixed on tours as large as Journey and patrons who have been inside nearly every bay area venue.

One thing that nearly every single person on this thread is... A. forgetting B. un-educated to... or C. unaware of... is that the bands have guitar amps on stage that we have ZERO control over in the sound booth. Same thing with horns. In smaller rooms this poses problems because those amps / horns on stage can easily over power the mains.

Bands like Diego's Umbrella are generally LOUD. That's how they like it... and if you ask most if their fans... thats how they like it to.

But I encourage each and everyone of you to let the bands know... tell them when their up on stage that it's too loud and to play quieter instead of coming to the venue post event to complain. A lot of times they might not know it's too loud because they're hearing is impaired or they can't hear it from your perspective.

The battle between "too loud, to quiet" is a century old trivia between younger and older folks that rivals that of "finish your dinner." Simply put... young people like loud music... older people do not. You were a kid once and liked it loud... don't lie.

But luckily for you it's an easy solution... get / bring ear plugs. You can't tell me this is your first rodeo and that you haven't complained about this before yet still have no ear plugs. Napkins aren't' efficient and you should know this if your that sensitive to "loud noise".

People who like it loud cannot turn up their ears... but you have the choice to turn yours down. It's going to be a lot easier for you to fight this battle because rock & roll AND loud are in a life long partnership with no prenuptial agreement.

The DB meters on your i phone are highly unreliable as they do not have frequency separation. Ask any professional sound engineer.

My advise... go get musician earplugs. For about $150 they take a mold impression of the inside of your ear and give you different options for DB filtration, but still allowing you to hear the entire 20hz to 20khz frequency range compared to foam earplugs that will generally cut anything above 10khz

Here's are where I got mine...

http://www.audiologyassociates-sr.com/

[Barry]

There's been some confusion on this thread, IMO, about loudness and distortion. Venues such as HopMonk and the Main Stage at Harmony, have amazing clear sound, it's just too loud (again, IMO).

To Patrick's point, yes we can wear earplugs, but it's not the same as the unprotected experience, just like safe-sex.

Here are some earplugs that can help for only $13. I've got a pair, but somehow they often don't get into the venue with me. I know that the Tradewinds is a danger zone, I hadn't considered the HopMonk to be one before now. Now that I've made a fuss, perhaps I'll remember them more often.

Apparently my request for some volume-constrained shows is falling on deaf ears . Oh well...

Keep the comments coming folks!

[Orm Embar]

As someone who is young and has excellent hearing . . . I'd like to offer that HopMonk is the only venue I have had rattling my windows on a regular basis. I lived with that every Monday, Thursday, and most Fridays and Saturdays for two years. I am sooooo happy to now live where I can sleep through the night, even if I do miss my dear neighbors. It is absurd to suggest that an entire household purchase earplugs in order to enjoy a sound night's sleep. Of course, the ear plugs do nothing to erase the wall and windows vibrating a few inches from one's head.

The worst days were Monday and Thursday rave days. (not a live band in control of their own volume) The sound got even worse as the evening wore on and doors/windows were propped open to cool down the understandably hot room. I was told to my face that I was hearing things, despite the fact that I had upset children woken near midnight on a school night. Try calling . . . they stop answering the phone after your first call. . . that's why I went down in person.

Unfortunately, decibel levels are not the best way to measure the effects of base sounds that rattle windows, but I wish I had a decibel reader when I lived there. My neighbors who's bedrooms on a second story had/have it even worse that I did.

Because of the lack of respect and response to my requests, I do not even eat at Hopmonk any more. I know several people who lament that they cannot attend music events there. Too bad, the music is great. . . just too loud.

-L

Interesting...
The battle between "too loud, to quiet" is a century old trivia between younger and older folks that rivals that of "finish your dinner." Simply put... young people like loud music... older people do not. You were a kid once and liked it loud... don't lie.

[gavio]

Seems to me, that given venue manager's reticence to do anything about it, a good follow up question becomes "Why?"

Are there really that many people who would refuse to go if the sound volume were reduced? Is that honestly their patrons primary reason for choosing a venue? If so, does the venue still choose acts based on talent or variety, or is it just a matter of who can play the loudest?

I dunno, just sayin'

Gavio

[ChristmasCarla]

I went to Aubergine yesterday noon for the first of KRSH's free winter concerts, and yes, even in that open space, it was loud. There was a young mother wheeling her small child in a stroller, and the child had her hands over her ears and was upset with the volume of noise. The musicians were good, however, and we soon adapted to the level of sound. I'm grateful that this thread has come up, because I'm sure almost all of us have hearing difficulties, current or potential, because of the levels of noise around us, especially music cranked up too loud. It certainly diminishes the enjoyment of the music.

[Oceanicdreamer]

I often want to hear certain bands but I avoid the Tradewinds because it is way too loud. It is painful to me and can make you go deaf and as I am a musician I want to keep my hearing and sensitivity. I haven't been to the Hopmonk in awhile so I don't know about that but I suspect it varies more than the Tradewinds. If the music is too loud I don't go in. I do use earplugs sometimes but I think it is likely that most of the sound technicians are hard of hearing at the Tradewinds. It is also not so great for the musicians although I know they ususally do use earplugs.

I think having this poll is a great idea.
Oceanicdreamer

[Tristique]

Interesting...

As the talent buyer and events director of HopMonk the single largest compliment we get is about how good it sounds in that room. Thats coming from international bands that have toured relentlessly for decades, sound engineers that have mixed on tours as large as Journey and patrons who have been inside nearly every bay area venue.

One thing that nearly every single person on this thread is... A. forgetting B. un-educated to... or C. unaware of... is that the bands have guitar amps on stage that we have ZERO control over in the sound booth. Same thing with horns. In smaller rooms this poses problems because those amps / horns on stage can easily over power the mains.

Bands like Diego's Umbrella are generally LOUD. That's how they like it... and if you ask most if their fans... thats how they like it to.

But I encourage each and everyone of you to let the bands know... tell them when their up on stage that it's too loud and to play quieter instead of coming to the venue post event to complain. A lot of times they might not know it's too loud because they're hearing is impaired or they can't hear it from your perspective.

The battle between "too loud, to quiet" is a century old trivia between younger and older folks that rivals that of "finish your dinner." Simply put... young people like loud music... older people do not. You were a kid once and liked it loud... don't lie.

But luckily for you it's an easy solution... get / bring ear plugs. You can't tell me this is your first rodeo and that you haven't complained about this before yet still have no ear plugs. Napkins aren't' efficient and you should know this if your that sensitive to "loud noise".

People who like it loud cannot turn up their ears... but you have the choice to turn yours down. It's going to be a lot easier for you to fight this battle because rock & roll AND loud are in a life long partnership with no prenuptial agreement.

The DB meters on your i phone are highly unreliable as they do not have frequency separation. Ask any professional sound engineer.

My advise... go get musician earplugs. For about $150 they take a mold impression of the inside of your ear and give you different options for DB filtration, but still allowing you to hear the entire 20hz to 20khz frequency range compared to foam earplugs that will generally cut anything above 10khz

Here's are where I got mine...

http://www.audiologyassociates-sr.com/

Oh My God are U serious????...ear plugs when you go out to spend money and have a good time! Just tell the damn musicians (with huge EGO'S) to turn that shit DOWN and that they sound like crap when they blast the hell out of themselves! Get over yourself and same goes for these musicians who keep turning themselves up bcuz they can't hear themselves over the other players! GEEZZZZ..........give me a break! ..."Ask them to turn it down...". Good luck!

[Barry]

Oh My God are U serious????...ear plugs when you go out to spend money and have a good time! Just tell the damn musicians (with huge EGO'S) to turn that shit DOWN and that they sound like crap when they blast the hell out of themselves! Get over yourself and same goes for these musicians who keep turning themselves up bcuz they can't hear themselves over the other players! GEEZZZZ..........give me a break! ..."Ask them to turn it down...". Good luck!

Be nice...

Patrick and the HopMonk get to run the place how they think best. If people don't like it, then they won't go back. You can't please all the people all the time... From the crowds that I have noticed there lately, they are doing a pretty good job!

[Dixon]

From what some local residents are saying, there may be serious noise problems that are interfering with the neighbors' sleep and comfort. This may be a rights issue. If the Hopmonk (or whoever) is violating reasonable noise-control statutes, and especially if they just blow off complaints, calling the police as many times as necessary may be the way to go. If the folks responsible for making the noise have a cavalier attitude about whether they're making life difficult for the neighbors, maybe some legal consequences will change their behavior, where depending on their (nonexistent?) empathy for their neighbors hasn't worked.

[Orm Embar]

Dennis Colthurst is the officer to contact. He's been working on this issue for a while now.

While I support our local venues and appreciate that Hopmonk has a thriving nightlife business, I don't believe they would lose that business if sound levels were brought into a more reasonable level. Standards can be set and worked with so that both live and recorded music is within reasonable bounds. One can have delicious space-filling sound without interfering with people's sense of peace in their own homes. I know folks in the Eleanor/Fannen/Walker neighborhood as well as people on Calder who deal with this continually. We would like to happily support our local businesses. It would be nice to have some more work done in this area so that it is not dealt with on a call-by-call basis.

From what some local residents are saying, there may be serious noise problems that are interfering with the neighbors' sleep and comfort. This may be a rights issue. If the Hopmonk (or whoever) is violating reasonable noise-control statutes, and especially if they just blow off complaints, calling the police as many times as necessary may be the way to go. If the folks responsible for making the noise have a cavalier attitude about whether they're making life difficult for the neighbors, maybe some legal consequences will change their behavior, where depending on their (nonexistent?) empathy for their neighbors hasn't worked.

[Malarkey]

My response was NOT to our neighbors Dixon... it was to the folks, like Barry (CEO of Wacco BB) who started this thread, relating to maintaining the enjoyment of a show without noise discomfort.

The neighborhood issue is something completely different that we've been working on for years. Being a sound engineering graduate, full time event producer & professional DJ... I can honesty tell you that there are MANY variables at work here.

The show doesn't have to be ear bleeding loud inside for sound to carry down the street… especially the on the LOW END. LOW-END frequencies are omnidirectional wave forms that generally take longer distance to form that are very hard to contain. Lots of music is heavy on the LOW END (reggae, hip hop, dub step, electronic dance, etc) hitting almost sub sonic bass. In this case it doesn't have to be very loud at all to hear it a block away.

Just like a car that drives by booming bass and you think... "are they deaf inside?" Not always… it's because LOW END moves through walls, windows, etc very easily at very low volumes.

Unfortunately... these are some of the most popular types of music on the planet and when your in the business of selling music you cannot ignore these markets.

The weather, believe it or not, is a big factor. We have clear temperate nights with acoustic folk bands and we get a complaint. But then we have a booming reggae show with wind, clouds, fog, whatever... and nothing. It's ghostly. Read up Bill Grahm's experiences in SF.

It goes on and on... at sound check no bodies are in the room to absorb the sound... it carries.

To think we are ignoring or neglecting our neighbors well being is a completely a FALSE accusation.

We have insulated the entire room... moved our box office off the street... keep our doors and windows shut... maintain the best volume control we can & adjust when we get calls. In fact... we HAD NOT gotten a call in 4-5 months until last week.

I literally lived across the street... 1st house behind Grateful Bagel on Willow for 3 years... and yes I could hear it from time to time. Was it rattling my windows, shaking the house and waking people up... not at all. Not to say that it couldn't different 50 feet in a different direction (noting from I explained above) but there needs to be a balance and understanding with living downtown next to a live music venue just like if you lived next to a freeway / train.

I understood that when living there. Downtown is only going to get bigger and louder.

Keep in mind we produce a substantial amount of fundraisers & benefits… maybe more than any other business in town! These "LOUD EVENTS" has raised over $15k for Haiti Relief and more recent $3k for a local children's music education program. We have one coming up this week for a local woman's shelter and next week for a young handicap girl. We employee over a hundred people. Generate a huge city tax revenue. Support music in our youth and bring some of the highest caliber talent in the world to our tiny little town putting west sonoma county on the map... for YOUR enjoyment.

Funny how we don't hear a peep from people for things like this… only what we're doing wrong or not doing right.

We have sellout shows week after week which I presume wouldn't be happening if people found it to be as loud as some are making us out to be.

Here's a a few tricks of the trade that might help you when in the room…

1. Try standing in different areas in the room. You'll find hot spots and soft spots. The better sounding rooms should have even dispreciation everywhere in the room, but you'll still find places that aren't as loud

2. Understand where your main PA is... the more you observe where the sound is coming from the better you can learn where to poison yourself at shows.

3. Dont stand in front row and do not stand in line with guitar amps on stage.

4. Musician Ear plugs - ear plugs - ear plugs.

I'm still shocked that most people claiming shows are too loud... don't have custom or cheap ear plugs. If you really enjoy live music that much but are constantly complaining that it's too loud... bring ear plugs. Or ask our box office... we'll even provide them to you FREE.

Again... here's a local ear doctor who can make custom fashionable cool ear plugs for about $100-$150 bucks...

http://www.audiologyassociates-sr.com/

Please know that I hear what your saying and want you to know we always have and will thrive to live in harmony with our neighbors, the city and our patrons. You can contact me personally as I'm always open to ideas, concerns & thoughts.

Kindly,
Patrick Malone
patrick@hopmonk.com

[Jacques]

Hey all - this is my first post on this forum, so greetings and respect to all.

A few things about myself for context, I am a DJ and have been a professional musician for 15 years but I have been performing for more than 25 years. I come from a musical family so this discussion about appropriate volume and protecting your ears has been one I've been a part of since I was a child. My grandfather was Principal Bassist for the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra, my uncle was Associate Conductor at the Metropolitan Opera in NYC and others in my family had a rock/blues band for a decade. Add to this that I have a deaf mother and the perspective on hearing issues deepens. Also, for full disclosure, I am the DJ at the Hopmonk on Monday nights.

All that said and done, I am known to enjoy both listening to and playing music at high volumes with lots of bass. I can take bass in massive amounts but my ears are very, very sensitive to the high-frequency sounds that are created by poor mixing, distortion and the general tones that are created by electric guitar, keys and some vocals. I rarely use earplugs but do always have a cheap orange foam pair in my bag if needed. I have found that finding the right place in a room, the sweet spot, is the most important part of protecting my ears no matter the volume or mix of the music.

When we first started at the Hopmonk, the entrance was on the street which made it very easy for sound to escape the room and go down the street to neighbors houses. This is a primary reason why user Orm Embar had issues with sound carrying to his/her house probably. Since that time, the entrance to the Abbey for shows has been moved to the other side of the venue and the street doors are kept closed. The Hopmonk installed sound buffering inside the venue and installed 5 fans to keep the room cooler so that the doors, which used to be kept open a crack for air, are now kept closed. The sound buffering has been a huge help and we have set levels with our soundpeople to insure appropriate volume.

Even with all that done, with the best of intentions and efforts, some folks will find the volume or, more probably certain frequencies, not to their liking. I am very sensitive to that and just want to chime in that we are always working to better the experience of everyone that comes to the shows and to all in our community.

Whether it be the sound engineer on a certain night (many of whom travel with the band and are not Hopmonk engineers), the sound of a particular instrument, or the mastering/mix of a particular song played by a DJ, there will always be variation. All we can do is keep the ball moving forward on improving the experience.

Ear piercing high-frequency sound at a high volume bothers musicians, engineers and bar staff just as it can offend patrons and we can't leave the room to escape it. We are talking about our working environment so we are highly motivated and invested in making sure it is safe for both our/your ears. Please know that.

For those of you who have numerous experiences with ear sensitivity, if it looks like the majority of others in attendance are not bothered, then I do recommend bringing earplugs. In some instances, It's not a knock on any venue or musician. Some people just have ears that are more sensitive than the majority of others.

Bottom line, I just wanted to give voice to the fact that its not a musician/venue vs. folks who want lower volume issue. It's about finding an appropriate balance. In the end, even if done totally right, some people will still want volume higher and some lower. Some will want the "highs" turned up while others will just perpetually want more bass. Musical taste and taste for sonic experience is just as finicky and unique to each person as is their taste for food.

When we talk about all this I do understand that the stakes are high. On a primary level we are talking about personal safety. I've been concerned about any potential hearing loss since I was a child, having grown up with a deaf mother. Also, we have a family friend, a senior executive at Sony, who lost his hearing due to years in the industry. They are both on me to check my ear safety.

One last thing, for some who used to love loud concerts but no longer do, be honest in your self reflection as to whether the volume is too loud for everyone or just you. Every attendee at a show is important and no one should feel threatened by the volume or excluded but if its more about your taste and everyone else is safe and enjoying themselves it makes sense to get earplugs and let the rest enjoy the music per their tastes.

My two cents.

Respect - Jacques

[Dixon]

To think we are ignoring or neglecting our neighbors well being is a completely a FALSE accusation.

I hope you're not falsely accusing me of false accusation, LOL! Please note that I made some conditional statements carefully qualified with several "may bes", "ifs", and an appropriate "?". That said, I note that you haven't specifically addressed a couple of the accusations made by Orm which I was responding to, e.g.: "I was told to my face that I was hearing things, despite the fact that I had upset children woken near midnight on a school night. Try calling . . . they stop answering the phone after your first call. . .". If your staff are responding in these perhaps less than respectful ways, would you even know it?

Keep in mind we produce a substantial amount of fundraisers & benefits… maybe more than any other business in town!

Much kudos to you folks for that!

... the more you observe where the sound is coming from the better you can learn where to poison yourself at shows.

[emphasis mine]

[Malarkey]

[/FONT]I hope you're not falsely accusing me of false accusation, LOL! Please note that I made some conditional statements carefully qualified with several "may bes", "ifs", and an appropriate "?". That said, I note that you haven't specifically addressed a couple of the accusations made by Orm which I was responding to, e.g.: "[/COLOR][/COLOR]I was told to my face that I was hearing things, despite the fact that I had upset children woken near midnight on a school night. Try calling . . . they stop answering the phone after your first call. . .". If your staff are responding in these perhaps less than respectful ways, would you even know it?


Much kudos to you folks for that!

[emphasis mine]

I would... because I run room, am there 90% of the time and work closely with my staff. The fact that Orm doesn't have the name of someone that clearly insulted him is very suspicious. I highly doubt that any of my managers would tell that to a concerned neighbor.

[Sereniti]

Thank you for your views, experience and history. I was aware of the dynamics of sound re: weather etc which is fascinating and frustrating I imagine for venues.

Yet I haven't seen an actual discussion about decibel level. I Googled it and here's reference for discussion. http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/edu.../hearing-loss/

(I'd offer a Wikipedia link but they are on BLACKOUT. ...Can you imagine life without Wikipedia? Please weigh in on the proposed bill and add your name to the filibuster. I don't want to derail from the main topic but it was important to mention.)

I gave up on attending Hopmonk and venues like it a long time ago. I'm sorry if Hopmonk feels like they are being picked on because it really isn't about them. This is about venues that can cause hearing loss. If a venue doesn't want to keep it under 85db, if would be nice for consumers to know and make an informed choice.

I say this because I MIGHT ACTUALLY GO TO A VENUE if I knew I could enjoy it comfortably.

Otherwise I will just completely ignore the venue and never give it consideration as an entertainment option. ---- Which is a shame for places like Hopmonk because I actually like their food.

My 2 cents... your mileage WILL vary.
Sereniti

Hey all - this is my first post on this forum, so greetings and respect to all.

A few things about myself for context, I am a DJ and have been a professional musician for 15 years but I have been performing for more than 25 years. I come from a musical family so this discussion about appropriate volume and protecting your ears has been one I've been a part of since I was a child. ......etc

[Gina Williams]

Wow, the poor people in this neighborhood. Years ago, I had neighbors who cranked up the music very loud on the weekends nights. I tried asking them to turn down the volume (I didn't mind the music, it was the extreme volume I had a problem with), this didn't work. So, when my windows rattled or the music was so loud that I couldn't sleep after 10 or 11pm at night, I called the local police dept and complained. They would come out and ask the neighbors to turn down the volume. I had to do this a few times, but it worked. For a music venue, they'd probably need to have the whole neighborhood complain to the police dept and the city, but maybe it might make a difference.

As someone who is young and has excellent hearing . . . I'd like to offer that HopMonk is the only venue I have had rattling my windows on a regular basis. I lived with that every Monday, Thursday, and most Fridays and Saturdays for two years. ...
-L

[rossmen]

i have a question for the hopmonk crew (and thanks for showing up for this discussion!) :

how often do patrons ask you to turn it up?

i almost always employ earplugs at shows, and assume that asking that the sound be turned down would fall on deaf ears.

[Karl Frederick]

I don't like somebody else's noise in my space, or in your space, either, especially when it's a regular and preventable thing. So, although I enjoy Hopmonk's burgers, I'll look for another place until they see fit to enforce reasonable acoustic control and show more respect to their neighbors.

Wow, the poor people in this neighborhood. Years ago, I had neighbors who cranked up the music very loud on the weekends nights. I tried asking them to turn down the volume (I didn't mind the music, it was the extreme volume I had a problem with), this didn't work. So, when my windows rattled or the music was so loud that I couldn't sleep after 10 or 11pm at night, I called the local police dept and complained. They would come out and ask the neighbors to turn down the volume. I had to do this a few times, but it worked. For a music venue, they'd probably need to have the whole neighborhood complain to the police dept and the city, but maybe it might make a difference.

[Karl Frederick]

Barry, I hope you're not suggesting that Patrick & co are responsible only to their paying customers, and not to the community in which they operate.

Be nice...

Patrick and the HopMonk get to run the place how they think best. If people don't like it, then they won't go back. You can't please all the people all the time... From the crowds that I have noticed there lately, they are doing a pretty good job!

[Jacques]

i have a question for the hopmonk crew (and thanks for showing up for this discussion!) :

how often do patrons ask you to turn it up?

i almost always employ earplugs at shows, and assume that asking that the sound be turned down would fall on deaf ears.

Almost every time I play there someone says "Turn it up man!", even at times when I KNEW it was loud enough. I think for some people its not even about the sound. They just use it as a greeting or way to interact with the DJ or artist. But some, almost every night would want it louder and ask.

[Jacques]

Be nice...
You can't please all the people all the time... From the crowds that I have noticed there lately, they are doing a pretty good job!

Big up Barry!

[Jacques]

... - if you can't speak to your friends without yelling, until the band takes a break ...then it's simply too loud.

I like to pump up the volume and I used to rock out at home and live at concerts to Hendrix, The Who, Led Zepplin, etc., etc. but the indoor and outdoor concerts were never so overwhelmingly loud, that we couldn't speak to our friends.

Trish

All due respect, and truly not being sarcastic here, but from what I understand if you were in the front to middle of the crowd at a concert by Jimi Hendrix, The Who, Led Zepplin, etc. you probably wouldn't have been able to speak with your friends without yelling loudly, if at all. Even if it was outside. Maybe my mental fantasy of those classic concerts based on tales from friends who went is just exaggerated? As I understand it they had some WALLS of sound both in the PA and on stage.

[Dixon]

All due respect, and truly not being sarcastic here, but from what I understand if you were in the front to middle of the crowd at a concert by Jimi Hendrix, The Who, Led Zepplin, etc. you probably wouldn't have been able to speak with your friends without yelling loudly, if at all. Even if it was outside. Maybe my mental fantasy of those classic concerts based on tales from friends who went is just exaggerated? As I understand it they had some WALLS of sound both in the PA and on stage.

Yeah, many times, back in the day, I'd exit a concert and my ears would be ringing for hours afterward. Some years ago the Who were listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the loudest band in the world--as loud as a jet engine. Maybe Trish was on such good acid when she saw these bands that the volume didn't bother her?

["Mad" Miles]

The, "arrogance of youth", seems to apply to this discussion (as well as many other social issues.) I've already weighed in on this site when issues of sound pollution from neighbors have come up. I've fought those fights. And know how to win. Or at least I know how to hold my own.

Communication and respect are key. But when those fail, there are defensive techniques that work.

I've suffered the consequences of my own arrogance and ignorance. As mentioned earlier.

Do we have to reinvent the wheel every five to ten years? Really? (Cliché acknowledged and "owned".)

Remind me to tell the story of the time I was living in a council flat in Brixton. Partying all night, and every morning around eight the guy in the flat above powered up his stereo with Dub beats. I already knew the genre. He had a good selection. But trying to sleep in with that going on above my head?

Let's just say it's a good thing I was tolerant, knew that I was an outsider, and could power through until noon when he shut down and probably had to go to work. Combined with the kids playing outside, it contributed to an exotic and interesting experience. Keep in mind, I wasn't paying rent, didn't own a place and could move on whenever I chose.

EDM Sucks! [Electronic Dance Music? - Barry]

Then there was that last year or two in Chicago, when my upstairs neighbors "needed" to rev up for work at the restaurant at ten a.m. and I was sleeping until three. I've already told the tale of how I checked their narcissistic bullshit.

And before that the seven months I lived in the club district of Clark/Sheffield and Roscoe (Wrigleyville, Chicago) and had to deal with Friday and Saturday nights, while living with the El running just behind the apartment building. Good thing I didn't go to bed until 5:00 a.m. Did that help? A little. But it didn't keep me from wanting to assassinate club goers at 2:00 a.m. from my third story window. Thankfully, I didn't need to sleep at that hour, and there was always TV.

Don't even get me started about the car alarms in the wee hours, at 47th and Lake Park, because I lived in "The Windy City". I won't admit to my specific sniping fantasies (requires an intimate knowledge of alarm placement in the engine compartment of various model cars) during those years, in a public forum.

Let's just say it's a good thing we live in a moderately regulated society, in spite of the lack of just and effective noise ordinances.

[Gina Williams]

i have a question for the hopmonk crew (and thanks for showing up for this discussion!) :

how often do patrons ask you to turn it up?

i almost always employ earplugs at shows, and assume that asking that the sound be turned down would fall on deaf ears.

Interesting question! I've noticed how often it has been recommended in various posts that people who think it's too loud should get earplugs, even professional quality earplugs. IMO if the sound is so loud, it makes my ears ring and gives me a headache, or if I need earplugs to enjoy it rather than endure it, it's too loud! Seems like the musicians and sound techs who need the sound at a higher volume could get hearing aids.

I've been to events at Hop Monk (that had me leaving early with a headache) and had dinner with friends there (having to yell to hear eachother), and decided long ago that the scene was too loud for me.

And, BTW I think it's great that Hop Monk has made a success of that location. Clearly they have created a draw. Many businesses have failed there in the 25 years I've been in Sebastopol. If the sound wasn't so loud, I'd go there too!

[Barry]

No, Hopmonk needs to be a good neighbor, too. However it sounds like they have really tried to be considerate, and this thread is about the sound level inside their music room, not externally, which has been discussed before. Please keep your comments on the topic of the sound level inside. You're welcome to start another thread regarding noise issues.

Barry, I hope you're not suggesting that Patrick & co are responsible only to their paying customers, and not to the community in which they operate.

[Malarkey]

We get asked to turn it up all the time. Not to say that we do... but know that it does happen on a regular basis.

I can't help but scratch my head with the examples that Trish used. The WHO is still considered that loudest band in history. The Grateuful Dead invented a literal WALL of sound that helped define PA acoustic history to this day. I'm NOT convinced that you could have had a conversation at normal volume at a Jimmy Hendrix or Led Zep concert unless you were in the parking lot.

Please don't be sensitive to this next statement... but through the nauseating years of this debate I've seen a HUGE pattern, like I explained in my first post, younger people like it loud... older people do not. From what I can tell most people commenting on it being "too loud"... I'm guessing are 40+ yea?

Is taking those free rights, that you once had listening to Hendrix, Zepplin etc, away really fair? What would rock and roll history be if we played it at 80db? Thats the loudness of a telephone. Concerts have been 110-120bd since the 60's.

We run a live music venue with proper sound insolation, have taken extensive measures to contain it, provide ear plugs, have a crystal clear sound system and the most professional people in the industry to run it. I've offered a number of suggestions, links to custom ear plug doctors (that still allow you to hear the entire frequency range... just at lower volume) and acknowledgement to the concern.

If you still feel it's too loud and you don't want to wear ear plugs... then I'm sorry we can't offer you a show experience and understand.

We've done everything in our power to control the business we run and feel we do it well.

How many other Sebastopol business' have raised tens of thousands of dollars to fundraisers, foundations and charities through these "loud events"?

kindly,
patrick malone

["Mad" Miles]

Patrick / Malarkey,

You argue well, make salient points, are in the biz, you're the expert.

Surely you're not comparing a large venue, stadium or major hall, where there is music once every few weeks at the volume that The Who or TGD played, somewhere in an industrial area or otherwise away from residential areas, to a club in a fairly small town with residences nearby, and music seven nights a week?

As for the old / young dynamic. That's what I was referring to by my use of the phrase, the arrogance of youth. Young people on average are oblivious to the long term effects of loud, consistent pleasurable noise. I know this because I was young once and went out at least once a week, sometimes two or three times, to hear and dance to very loud Punk Rock, Art Punk, New Wave, Reggae, World Beat (mostly African, some Latin) and other genres of amplified music.

And there were warnings / cautions about hearing loss from extreme and consistent exposure. Some people fashioned earplugs out of cocktail napkins or kleenex, some didn't. We already had the example of the hippies, some of whom had blown out their hearing. Hearing loss among musicians and sound engineers was notorious.

And guess what, when you have killed some of those nerves and don't hear as well, turning up the volume recaptures the glory days when your neurons weren't fried. But, some "older" people wise up, realize that volume does not enhance quality (except for the body vibrations from the low end.). Some people actually learn from experience.

Nobody has the right to inject their sounds, smells or any other uninvited sense phenomenon into my private space. If they insist on it and are not amenable to reason and persuasion, well, then we have a problem. Your arguments here evince an air of privileged arrogance. No matter how much you raise for charity, that does not excuse noise pollution injected into the homes of people who did not volunteer to be subjected to it. There is no justification which works for that.

This site has had other discussions about the other impacts from HopMonk on the community. Is there a pattern?

EDM Sucks!!!!!

(Yes, Barry. Electronic Dance Music. My generic term for a whole host of genres that go back to the Disco era. "Thump, Thump" beats that were/are associated with Rave Culture. à chacun son goût. Taste is personal and relative. I don't begrudge others their proclivities, as I hope they don't deny or begrudge me mine. But that stuff is boring, with some exceptions for creative DJ's who bite/sample riffs and do interesting things with them.

A much larger discussion, the advent of the synthesizer was the beginning of the end. I give my "cri de coeur" here because Techno, Trance, Jungle, Ambient, Trip-Hop and I'm sure many other subgenres that I'm not hip to since I don't hang in that scene, are subject to being played at high volume, with lots of low end, penetrating beyond the space into neighbors spaces. And if any genre other than various forms of Rock, contributes to generational hearing loss, it's EDM.

Re: Rock, I also shout, Heavy Metal Sucks!!! But that's just me, an aesthete with refined tastes in popular culture. Anybody want to make something of it?

Give me a song, with good lyrics and melody, excellent musicians playing instruments who have crafted their art and arrangement, any day over repetitive beats and boring, predictable sampling.

Music made for people tripping on Ecstasy? Well, if I have to be on psychoactives to appreciate its "brilliance", let's just say it came too late for me!?)

[Sereniti]

Patrick and Malarkey,

I appreciate that you are in this discussion. I know it must be difficult to be the center of attention right now. The topic is NOT directed as much at you as it is on a discussion of the larger issue.

There seems to be a demand for lower decibel entertainment where we can enjoy the atmosphere you created. This could be a unique marketing opportunity to give it a try for a weeknight and see how that works out.

For example hungs and pianos are among the most sublime instruments in the range proposed. I may be a bit radical to suggest this (but heck variety is spice) what if you proposed something or maybe the community can. Give it a try a la burner style. We'll bring our snuggies and pillows and buy your food and drinks while we enjoy someone who wants to perform in this kind of environment. ---- we are buying a sensory experience afterall....

I'm in Atlanta right now or I'd offer to throw some juice into this. I think there is alot of passion in this discussion. To me it seems like a win-win worth trying. But ultimately this is your business to decide how you wish to be. You've put your personal resources into creating this and I think you are a positive contributor to the community.

As for the community we can see they have made an effort. Let's offer solutions, focus on fixing rather than what is wrong. It applies to so many things in life.....

La Sereniti

[Barry]

Patrick and Malarkey,

Patrick isn't speaking Malarkey here... Nor is DJ Jacques

I appreciate that you are in this discussion.

Ditto! And your thoughtful contribution too, Sereniti!

I know it must be difficult to be the center of attention right now. The topic is NOT directed as much at you as it is on a discussion of the larger issue.

There seems to be a demand for lower decibel entertainment where we can enjoy the atmosphere you created. This could be a unique marketing opportunity to give it a try for a weeknight and see how that works out.

I appreciate Partrick's and Jacques comments about younger people liking it louder than us old farts (I'm 55 )

I'd like to see weekly or monthly weeknight loudness-contrained shows (or even just when there is a boomer friendly show) where it's declared the sound level will not exceed x-decibels. Seems like it would be a decent marketing opportunity (you'd might even get some press out of it). It would also count as a peace offering to your neighbors.

Acoustic music would be an easy answer, but I'd rather see some sort of amplified dance music. Us aging hippies still like our rock n roll, even if we can't handle the decibels we used to. Some of the older musicians might appreciate that as well.

As to what level, I might pick 100 decibels, as I still do like it loud, just not ear splitting, and it's a nice round number, but 91 is the official safe level for 2 hours of exposure.

I could see this boosting attendance, including several people in this thread!

In response to earlier comments of the sound levels compared to concerts of yore, I think one factor is the smallness of the room compared to indoor auditoriums. HopMonk's room is like an overgrown headphone! (which can be a good thing!)

So far there's been 20 votes in the poll including 6 votes for sometimes too loud and 10 votes for generally too loud. This Link will take you to the poll to vote and see the results.

[sambacat]

Hey, wait just a darn minute. Now, if the Age Card is being played here, I just wanna say that...... In my experience with Old Folks, their hearing loss due to age (and many decades of way-too-loud-concerts) requires an INCREASE in volume. So, what's all this talk about only Old People wanting the volume turned down? That just doesn't make any sense. :)

[Shandi]

As with everything, we are unique in our preferences for sound, taste, smell, touch, and visuals. I find that as I get older, I'm more sensitive to sound. So, in spite of the fact that it's been said that aging may accompany some degree of loss in our senses, I haven't found this to be true for me.

I've become more sensitive in the area of sound and touch. About 8 years ago, I attended a concert where the music was extremely loud, but I loved it, but then I was dancing, not talking. Then I went to a fundraiser concert at the Sebastopol Community Center, only a few years later, and I couldn't hear what anyone said to me. My chest was vibrating with the sound, and I had a headache afterwards. I wasn't able to dance due to a painful hip.

Last night I attended "Open Mic" at North LIghts Book Store, to hear a friend read some prose. I arrived an hour before he was scheduled, and the sound of the musicians was so loud I wanted to leave. As some of you know, it's a small bookstore. I stuck it out until my friend came on, but I won't go back because it was too uncomfortable. I noticed that I was the only "senior" there, besides one other person. Mostly people in their 20's and 30's. Not my kind of place on "Open Mic" night.

My taste is changing too...becoming more sensitive to sharp flavors. My sense of smell may be going the way of my vision, although I can always tell if my roommate's cooking, or her dog needs a bath. But I'm thankful to have glasses that allow for clear vision.

What really bothers me is when music is cranked up in a restaurant, and I've asked for it to be turned down while I'm there. Loud pounding music isn't conducive to a relaxing meal, but it seems to be a foreign idea to all but the most expensive places.

It also takes me awhile to adjust to the sound in a movie theater, and sometimes I bring cotton for my ears. Mostly I avoid going because of the expense. But even if I could afford it, the sound is too loud for me.

So, there's my on the subject.

[Shandi]

I never attended many concerts, so maybe that's why my hearing is still acute? What you're saying is believable, and does make sense, but there are people like me that you just can't make any sense out of. Maybe the poll could be taken in age groups, to see what that might reveal from the few people who vote, even though it's unscientific.

Hey, wait just a darn minute. Now, if the Age Card is being played here, I just wanna say that...... In my experience with Old Folks, their hearing loss due to age (and many decades of way-too-loud-concerts) requires an INCREASE in volume. So, what's all this talk about only Old People wanting the volume turned down? That just doesn't make any sense. :)

[Oceanicdreamer]

I don't think it is the age group so much as a person's sensitivity. I never liked very loud music, even in my twenties, but then I was a classical musician and like to hear the subtleties of the music.

[rossmen]

i have always used ear protection, even in my teens, because; i love dancing to live music, i hate having headaches and ringing ears, and i believe my initial cringe in response to any noise is valuable info. now i'm 52, i hear as well as ever, and i still struggle to understand why people use the destruction of their inner ear nerves to get high!

years ago i was reading about the rampant noise pollution (often by choice), of our society and the researcher wrote; "african grandparents living in the rainforest, where the loudest sound is the people singing, hear better than american teenagers."

one of the worst places i have encountered in sonoma county was scandia, where all the video games were cranked up to be heard over the din of all the other games, and the place was full of kids!

i would hope clubs take some responsibility for their decibel levels, and we are responsible for our own health.

I don't think it is the age group so much as a person's sensitivity. I never liked very loud music, even in my twenties, but then I was a classical musician and like to hear the subtleties of the music.