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  1. TopTop #121
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails


    From the Wikipedia:

    Godwin's law



    Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

    Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form.[4] The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]

    Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[6] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[7]

    smunsch wrote:

    This thread is just wonderfully full of Godwin's law.
    jbox wrote:

    So, you're saying that just because chemtrails come from jets and the first jet was the ME-262 flown by the Luftwaffe at the end of WW II that Hitler started chemtrails? Mark, you care to weigh in on this new evidence?
    Nah, Jon, I doubt seriously that that is what smunsch intended by his allusion to "Godwin's Law." What he probably means is just that the issue of Nazism, and the Austrian Corporal, was bound to come up - odds of probability & all - and it did. As the Law itself states:

    wikipedia wrote:

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3]
    In any case, I think in Our case, that my allusion to the issue of how the Hungarian Jews were in
    Denial about the Reality of the on-going holocaust, and consequently got on the trains, is a fair analogy to the Denial that many are in today on the Issue of Chemtrails, & what may, in fact, be happening with regard to the Chemtrail phenomenon as a means of Depopulation - if indeed, the Chemtrails are being used as a method of slow kill. Again, Google: Chemtrails, Genocide, {And while you're @ it, use the 100 hits function on Google, and scroll at least ten pages into the pile, before you begin to select any data, wilya?} In any event, the wikipedia also says:

    wikipedia wrote:

    Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]
    I do not know for certain that the Chemtrails are being used to kill the Masses off, slowly; or if that is, in fact, an element in the equation, or elegant solution of what they are about.

    But I would not put it past the oligarchy/plutocracy/power elite/1% to do such a thing, or use such methods. And therefore, because I retain the right
    - and my heart and mind also maintain the suppleness - to consider such things as entirely possible, I find that mockery of the issue, exemplified by the video that "Mad" Miles posted a few frames back, to be entirely gauche; in very bad taste; as well as being very sophomoric. There is also a subtle subtext of misogyny subliminally mixed in with the Message : Wise, Green Man {Miles' Hero} versus Dumb Broad. It is a form of comic relief, perhaps; but not any valid form of deliverance.

    It just is not a serious contribution to a serious discussion of the Issue before us. It trivializes the whole Issue - and it re-ifies, and mocks the "believers." [Miles' phrase] Christians - to the Lions; Jews - to the Ovens; Mush !

    I'll just place this here:



    "If you want to Conceal a thing, Hide it in the Open."

    - Mark


    Last edited by Iolchan; 01-14-2012 at 12:41 AM.
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  3. TopTop #122
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails



    G
    oogle Advanced Search:
    chemtrails, "class war",




    And while you're @ it, use the 100 hits function on Google,
    and scroll deep into the pile. Some people have already put these
    two concepts/terms together; indicating that not everyone
    who ascribes to the Reality of "chemtrails" is a "right-wing
    conspiracy theorist"
    = as some would have you believe.






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  4. TopTop #123
    Sebtown1968's Avatar
    Sebtown1968
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    What point is trying to be made with the Fox news clip? Two nut jobs arguing over nothing but "Theory." I do agree with Gretta Van Susteren's comment about alarmism rarely supporting reality.

    Thanks for wasting my time..

    Mark
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  6. TopTop #124
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails


    Sebtown1968 wrote:

    What point is trying to be made with the Fox news clip? Two nut jobs arguing over nothing but "Theory." I do agree with Gretta Van Susteren's comment about alarmism rarely supporting reality.

    Thanks for wasting my time..

    Mark [Inman]
    That Fox news clip is significant because it indicates a schism in the ruling class - as far as methodology and ideology. The Anchorwoman / Fox News gal is an example of your quasi-freelance anchorperson, at Fox, (owned by Rupert Murdoch, as we know,) who styles herself as a Sean Hannity-type "Compassionate Conservative."

    The "other nutjob" is a Federal Government spokesperson who is making an appearance on Fox News, in order to win the hearts and minds of Joe Sixpack types, who hate immigrants and can be generally relied on to react favorably towards any Federal move to keep our little brown neighbors down, south of the Border. Thus he is arguing Malthusian genocide and "population control" by piggy-backing the issue, and conflating it with border issues. His reason for appearing was totally as a shill for Federal Government propaganda, and winning a greater consensus of hardhat support for the genocidal federal policies -and programs, like the "persistent contrails" program - already in place.

    But, as she said, ' Why do you even bring in the issue of the border? ' - indicating that she was taken aback that he would take that line; and that when he agreed to be on her show, the understanding was that they would talk about "Population Control" and that only.

    As I said, it is very significant that the Issue of Malthusian "Population Control" - or "Population Stabilization" is being discussed on Rupert Murdoch's Channel - and it indicates a schism in ruling class circles as to how far they can go - and what is morally acceptable. The woman, in this case, although she is a pronounced right-winger, at least has vestigial "Christian," moral boundaries, and does not resonate with the notion of Genocide...





    Mark Walter Evans

    =Witness=



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  7. TopTop #125
    Sebtown1968's Avatar
    Sebtown1968
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    The "Other Nutjob" was NOT a spokesperson for the Federal Government he is a spokesperson for "Californians for Population Control." An independent non-profit based in California.

    http://www.capsweb.org/

    Don't try to add any more potential importance to this loon than is truly there. Anyone could start a group like this (and often do) spewing all kinds of nonsense.

    Nice try,

    Mark Inman
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  9. TopTop #126
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Sebtown1968 wrote:

    The "Other Nutjob" was NOT a spokesperson for the Federal Government he is a spokesperson for "Californians for Population Control." An independent non-profit based in California.

    http://www.capsweb.org/

    Don't try to add any more potential importance to this loon than is truly there. Anyone could start a group like this (and often do) spewing all kinds of nonsense.

    Nice try,

    Mark Inman
    iolchan wrote:

    The "other nutjob" is a Federal Government spokesperson who is making an appearance on Fox News, in order to win the hearts and minds of Joe Sixpack types, who hate immigrants and can be generally relied on to react favorably towards any Federal move to keep our little brown neighbors down, south of the Border. Thus he is arguing Malthusian genocide and "population control" by piggy-backing the issue, and conflating it with border issues. His reason for appearing was totally as a shill for Federal Government propaganda, and winning a greater consensus of hardhat support for the genocidal federal policies -and programs, like the "persistent contrails" program - already in place.
    Well alright, Mark, my dialectics [language] identifying your so-called "nutjob" [the dude] as a "spokesman" for the Feds may be stretching the envelope of your probity a bit. Technically, you may be correct, about where he works, @ his "day-job." I also wrote that " His reason for appearing was totally as a shill for Federal Government propaganda, and winning a greater consensus of hardhat support for the genocidal federal policies..."

    And that is how I see the man - as a "shill." And I regret that my quick response to your post lacked my normal compulsive recursive-ness. He is an apologist and a shill for policies already in place, and he has the aura of "government spook" writ large all over his face and his creepy, Malthusian Aura. Don't you know that the Company, {the C.I.A.} with its "black budget" sets up lots and lots of ngo's in order to facilitate, and pump for the Agenda of the power elite? That much should be a given, Mark Inman.

    Perhaps you just don't know these things, which to me, are a given.
    [Google Advanced Search: C.I.A. , ngo, "Non-Governmental Organization," .] But then again, perhaps we live in "Separate Realities." In my Reality, Chemtrails did not exist before 1984. [Google Search: chemtrails, 1984, ] And I have the witness of my senses - and memories - to confirm that, as well...

    Nice try.

    Mark Walter Evans
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  10. TopTop #127
    Sebtown1968's Avatar
    Sebtown1968
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    he has the aura of "government spook" writ large all over his face and his creepy, Malthusian Aura. Don't you know that the Company, {the C.I.A.} with its "black budget" sets up lots and lots of ngo's in order to facilitate, and pump for the Agenda of the power elite? That much should be a given, Mark Inman.

    What he has the "aura" of is immaterial, as is his "creepiness." You have ZERO proof that this man is anything other than he is claiming to be. I can not sit here and accept your accusations as anything other than fearmongering. You are walking a very fine line by putting people into boxes because they do not somehow pass your law abiding citizen litmus test.

    Paranoid much?

    Mark Inman
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  12. TopTop #128
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails


    More "Unbiased" Information on Chemtrails
    :



    Here is a former N.S.A./C.I.A. operative; & self professed "patriot" whose testimony,
    Regarding Chemtrails, does contain degrees of truth, & may also contain degrees of

    disinformation.

    Caveat Emptor. Mark Inman, you do not have to "waste your time." In fact,
    please don't; Nobody is forcing you to "waste your time" on this thread:




    And here is a Videoclip & a concise
    breakdown of what Chemtrails are:







    - Mark -


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  14. TopTop #129
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails


    Declassified New Zealand Defence Force Reports Reveal Chemtrail Linked To Outbreak Of Illnesses

    Clare Swinney NORTHLAND NEW ZEALAND CHEMTRAILS WATCH
 Jan 3, 2011

    Among a recently-released assortment of declassified reports of sightings of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) from New Zealand, dating from 1952-2009, were letters written in 1999 and 2000 by a concerned citizen, who predicted that an outbreak of illnesses would occur after an “aircraft contrail,” otherwise known as a ‘chemtrail’, was seen over a populated area.

    Chemtrails, which are also commonly referred to as aerosols, differ from aircraft vapour trails in that they often linger in the sky for hours and can be seen in grid-like patterns, in parallel lines (see above) or forming ‘X’s in the sky.

    While seeing a chemtrail does not constitute proof that the illnesses were caused by it, it is worth examining the issue, given all the evidence which shows that chemtrails are making people sick, and in light of what is known about their composition.

    Evidence collected for over a decade reveals that chemtrails are used for at least seven functions, including weather control and military applications, and are comprised of a wide variety of harmful ingredients. They commonly include aluminium and barium, which are toxic to both humans and to the environment. They may include radioactive thorium, desiccated red blood cells, dangerous pathogens, including Mycoplasma Fermentens Incognitus, plus mold spores, ethylene dibromide, and self-replicating nanotubes that cause Morgellon’s disease, which according to researcher Clifford Carnicom’s findings, now contaminate virtually everyone.

    The declassified reports, which are online under the heading: Original Files: NZ’s UFO Sightings, were posted at a major New Zealand news site, Stuff.co.nz on December the 22nd, 2010, and were released to the public by the New Zealand Defence Force under the Official Information Act.

    Buried among the total of 2,101 declassified documents, are letters, news clippings, and pages from magazine articles, which reveal that a private individual, whose name has been removed from the correspondence for privacy reasons, repeatedly tried to raise the alarm about the dangers of chemtrails in 1999 and early-2000. It appears that initially the correspondent, who will be referred to as ‘Mr Gibson,’ wrote to Warren Kyd, the member of the New Zealand parliament for Hunua. In his letter, which was dated May the 25th, 1999, he wrote that the trail he had seen was sprayed in a huge arc over Auckland and while one agency had advised him only a military aircraft could engage in that kind of activity, Air Traffic Control said it had come from a passenger plane en route to Fiji. This is not unlikely, as passenger planes have been seen spraying chemtrails in New Zealand, and elsewhere in the world.

    Mr Gibson also referred the MP to an article from the April, 1999 edition of Nexus magazine. This article, by Canadian journalist William Thomas, titled Contrails’: Poison From The Sky, (and since renamed Chemtrails’: Poison From The Sky on the Nexus website), mentioned that in areas where these trails had been seen lingering, an emergency room had become ‘inundated with flu-like cases,’ and doctors and nurses were complaining of ‘being extremely busy with respiratory diagnoses.’ Thomas further wrote: ‘In England, after lingering contrails and cobweb-like fallout were reported over London and Birmingham, the BBC reported on January 14, 1999 that more than 8,000 people – mostly elderly-died from pneumonia and other respiratory complications in the last week of December and the first two weeks of January 1999.’

    In light of reports like these, Mr Gibson advised in his letter: ‘If this plane was releasing something into our atmosphere and it causes like these magazines, [sic] suggests, a vast many people in Auckland will suffer from a Flu like sickness.’

    A newspaper article, which is in Book 1 on page 37 in the files, and published ten days after the chemtrail was spotted over Auckland, revealed that a ‘sudden surge’ in ailments had occurred. ‘The hospital emergency department has been very busy in the past few days with patients suffering respiratory-related disorders, including pneumonia and asthmas,’ reported the NZ Herald on June the 3rd, 1999. (See below).

    In addition, a subsequent article in the NZ Herald, dated July the 6th, 1999 andtitled: ‘Death Rate Soars In Flu ‘Plague,” noted that about 100 people died at Auckland’s Middlemore Hospital in June ‘mainly from respiratory illnesses.’

    In spite of Mr Gibson’s prediction appearing to have been correct and supported by overseas reports, the government brushed his concerns aside. ‘Inquiries have been made and Mr Kyd has been assured that there is no cause for you to be alarmed,’ Kyd’s Executive Secretary, Faith Sarten advised in a letter dated June the 21st, 1999.

    Not satisfied with the response, Mr Gibson went to see Mr Kyd and on his advice subsequently wrote to the New Zealand Minister of Defence, the Hon. Mark Burton on February, the 9th, 2000. A reply from Hon. Burton can not be found in the file, merely an acknowledgement of receipt of Mr Gibson’s correspondence.

    More than a decade later and the New Zealand Government, which has by now received a multitude of letters and phone calls from concerned citizens, is still not responding to their concerns, to what is now labelled ‘Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering’ and occurring on a far, far larger scale.

    For example, when I e-mailed 112 of the 122 members of Parliament on September the 10th, 2010 for a Chemtrail Mass Action, and asked them to help to stop this poisoning of our atmosphere from continuing, the most considered of a handful of replies received was that from the Executive Assistant to Catherine Delahunty, the toxics spokesperson for the NZ Green Party. It stated: “I can see your great concern about ‘chemtrails.’ However, the Greens have to prioritise their toxics work to known chemicals (and even then, are limited in what we can focus on).”

    Sign up and join the Coalition Against Chemtrails/Geoengineering.
    Fresh food that lasts from eFoods Direct (Ad)

    References:

    Below: The letter ‘Mr Gibson’ wrote to the MP for Hunua, Mr Warren Kyd, which is in Book 1 of the declassified files, on page 35, followed by the reply at page 36.
    Below in 2 parts: An article from Book 1 on page 38, dated July 1999.

    Below: In Book 1, at page 39, there is a copy of a letter sent to Paul Holmes, host of the popular 7pm current affairs program, Holmes, which aired on TV1 between 1989 and 2004.

    Below: An article from the NZ Herald, on December 6, 1999, that was in Book 1 on page 44 and numbered 10. It appears to be the last entry related to this matter.


    URL to article: http://www.infowars.com/declassified...-of-illnesses/
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  16. TopTop #130

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Journalling food for thought...

    It's still Winter. 1-24-12

    No word of how the day was; how your heart is; why the lies began, and remain.

    Once again; after 2 years of turmoil; the pain in my heart exceeds it's capacity. I release the overflow, to my Lifegiver - the Sun.


    It responds with a mighty flare; showering our sky with another dazzling light show. Shaking our state; and waking volcanoes. Showing me that - Life still loves me, with drama and style.

    http://news.yahoo.com/northern-light...120246745.html

    I hope it takes out some of the systems enabling evil deed doers.
    Their efforts have moved up the Doomsday Clock.

    What concerns me; knowing that Evil is - that which keeps us from the light; GeoEngineering is shielding us from natural, full spectrum light. Thus vitamin D levels in humans is dropping severely; making us more prone to illness; and sadness. We know how they are linked.


    This would be another reason why more people than ever are trying to pop a pill, or other substance, to deal with what is mainly SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder happening all year long.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002499/

    It just is more prevalent in winter; when our stockpile of D has an extra hard time getting replenished. The best prescription for everyone, is at lest 10 minutes of direct sun on your skin; with no sunscreen at all. Keep your curtains, or blinds as open as possible. Move, dance,run or jump; so it all gets to circulate.

    Most indoor lighting does not compensate with a full spectrum either.

    Man-made Weather Modification is also why some crops, like basil and tomatoes did not do well this year here in Northern CA; and others were not hurt as badly.

    Man's biggest folly will go down as trying to "out engineer" Natural systems; instead of just focusing on all the harmless ways to partner.

    Being away from loved ones for so long; can have the same affect as being away from the sun. I have to tap into the reservoir of memories, laid deep in my bones; to sustain another beat for this old heart.

    Renewal - Spring, is still too far. I need love in the form of words for me to shine till then.

    If I can't shine - how will the vital truths I have to deliver; like how our synthetic efforts to fix climate change, are fatally damaging us and our environment; ever find the light of day for everyone to wake up to?


    Fire your love to our Sun; so it can ricochet back to me in full spectrum. I will do the same.

    Look for it. Just as you did, in the divine wisdom of your youth. For a bedtime treat, you found a star each night, and delightfully ingested it.

    Those who are responsible for keeping us from: the truth, our love, our Sun; need the light the most - to disinfect the epidemic of their diseases; in mind, body and soul.

    Ignorance is not bliss - it's extinction. Unless we all illuminate the truth about how we have treated each other; and our beloved planet. Then do all which is needed; until our healing is complete.

    "Shine On You Crazy Diamond"

    Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
    come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!




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  18. TopTop #131
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails



    Thank you, Peace Voyager, for investing a little levity, Kindness, and humanity into this thread. I especially liked the part where you admonish us to get out in the Sun, and Move - Always good advice
    :


    " Move, dance, run or jump; so it all gets to circulate... "




    Peace Voyager wrote:

    The best prescription for everyone, is at lest 10 minutes of direct sun on your skin; with no sunscreen at all. Keep your curtains, or blinds as open as possible. Move, dance, run or jump; so it all gets to circulate.

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  19. TopTop #132
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails


    Pilot Films Plane Spraying Chemtrails :









    Time Lapse Video of 'Persistent Contrails' :






    Chemtrails, Time Lapse, &
    Geo-engineering over Paris :





    A Series of Videos of the Belfort Group
    Conference/Symposium on Chemtrails,
    on May 29, 2010, in Brussel, Belgium :









    As I have stated already in this thread, a reference to this Conference was made in
    Story #9, of Project Censored, in their Top Ten Censored Stories of 2011.

    Rady Ananda wrote:

    "... At a recent international symposium, scientists asserted that “manipulation of climate through modification of cirrus clouds is neither a hoax nor a conspiracy theory.” The only conspiracy surrounding geo-engineering is that most governments and industry refuse to publicly admit what anyone can see in the sky or discover in peer-reviewed research. The Belfort Group, has been working to raise public awareness about toxic aerial spraying – popularly known as chemtrails. However, scientists preferred the term ‘persistent contrails’ to describe the phenomenon, to move the inquiry away from amateur conspiracy theories.

    "Dr Vermeeren, Delft University of Technology, presented a 300-page scientific report entitled, “CASE ORANGE: Contrail Science, Its Impact on Climate and Weather Manipulation Programs Conducted by the United States and Its Allies.” {{- click for a pdf of the document.] He stated clearly: “Weather manipulation through contrail formation… is in place and fully operational.” Vermeeren mentioned a 1991 patent now held by Raytheon, a private defense contractor, with: “18 claims to reduce global warming through stratospheric seeding with aluminum oxide… thorium oxide … and refractory Welsbach material. Authors of the study expressed concern that Raytheon, a private corporation, makes daily flights spraying these materials in our skies with minimal government oversight. Raytheon is the same company that holds the HAARP contract with the U.S. "

    Source:

    “Atmospheric Geoengineering: Weather Manipulation, Contrails and Chemtrails
    ,” Rady Ananda, July 30, 2010, Global Research.


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20369


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  21. TopTop #133
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    We just published a very interesting article titled "The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails", coincidentally by the same person who kicked this thread off. I think you'll find it interesting!
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  22. TopTop #134
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails



    Posted by Rusty, Chemtrail News, Featured Wednesday, February 29th, 2012

    If chemtrails are a hoax or a conspiracy then it’s pulling in a lot of credible people. On January 11, 2012 the Fairfax City Council adopted Resolution No. 12-07 , “a Resolution of the Town Council of Fairfax declaring Fairfax a Chemtrail-Free Zone.” Understand, this is an instance of an American city government weighing in on the subject of chemtrails, acknowledging their existence and letting it be known they don’t want spraying over their city.This is not made-up. You can see their Resolution on their website: http://www.town-of-fairfax.org/packe...et_011112.html

    One of the main problems with calling chemtrails a hoax or conspiracy is the fact that whatever those planes are doing they aren’t trying to hide it. The planes are always spotted in broad daylight and most typically on very clear, sunny days. It’s not like UFO’s flying under the cover of night, darting in and out of airspace.

    Mobile Tribune understands there are people in this world who are ill with a disease we call GCS or Government Conspiracy Syndrome. They think the government is out to get citizens and spend most of their waking hours investigating reports of such. However, just because there are such people does not mean there cannot be instances of government or private enterprise secrecy in regard to these aircraft and the trails they leave behind.

    Many people know or understand the flight patterns in their area. Commercial and private aircraft are rigorously scheduled and monitored by the FAA. The question of chemtrails arises when one or more aircraft are spotted along with a pattern of trails that has become a hallmark of what are called chemtrails – a cross or checkerboard pattern of smoke. They might be seen in the middle of the day or at a time when people who are keen to observe closely, don’t normally see aircraft in their area.

    I personally spotted such a plane a few weeks ago in Mobile, Alabama. What struck me as unusual was the plane was accelerating upward but unlike other aircraft one is used to seeing, it did not level out at a certain altitude and then appear to head in some direction or destination. It appeared to me to have as it’s sole purpose just flying around in that one area, and several miles of the blue sky were arrayed with the trails of the plane. The cross shape was apparent. It didn’t make sense to me and it made me think about chemtrails. Does that make me a bad person, spreading a hoax, a conspiracy? Because I wonder about something that appears unusual and other people are doing the same thing? At the very least – regardless of whether chemical trails are involved- it is a fact that aircraft are sometimes in the sky with no apparent destination in progress and always with the white cross-shape trails that linger for an hour, sometimes longer. Many people report the aircraft as unmarked.

    Please understand I am a dyed in wool skeptic and have not been convinced of the existence of UFO’s. But, I am considering chemtrails or as they are more acceptably being called “geo-engineering.”

    And yes, I understand there are people out there who take advantage of any situation and jump aboard the chemtrail controversy for money and other reasons. Just because you find a website or youtube video on chemtrails does not mean the material they present is authentic or their intentions are good.

    The most convincing argument against chemtrails and in favor of contrails ( condensation as opposed to chemicals) is Wikipedia. The Wikipedia article on chemtrails is strong, supported by a number of well-known individuals and organizations. There is a considerable wall of dissent against the existence of chemtrails. I keep an open mind, and I could be convinced in either direction at this point. I currently lean in direction of yes, chemtrails and that the government of several countries are involved.

    What it would take to really convince me . . .a video from start to finish of a chemtrail process. I would want to see the planes entering the sky from a noted location. I would like to see the aircraft enter airspace, conduct the spraying and then leave airspace. Does anyone have one of those videos? - Preston Brady III, MobileTribune.com

    16. Adoption of Resolution No. 12-07, a Resolution of the Town Council of the Town of Fairfax declaring Fairfax a Chemtrail-Free Zone:

    http://www.town-of-fairfax.org/pdfs/council/council_packet/2012/011112/Item 16 Chem Free Zone Reso.pdf

    http://mobiletribune.com/profiles/bl...-the-town-a-ch

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  23. TopTop #135
    geomancer's Avatar
    geomancer
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    what are they going to do? Float some barrage balloons trailing cables like London in the Blitz. Maybe they could set up flack towers or get heat seeking missiles. Could be very entertaining except the city is broke]



    Last edited by Barry; 03-16-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  25. TopTop #136
    paulswetdog
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    I have been avoiding this thread for a long time, but since I just had a glass of wine, I feel compelled to chime in with my 2 bits worth.

    A. I don't believe the "chemtrails" theory. Period. The contrails explanation suits me fine. Scientific fact: Warm, moist air, quickly cooled, will condense out the water vapor. Scientific fact: Combustion releases water vapor. What happens when you start your car on a cold morning? Right, water vapor, from the combustion of gasoline in your car's COLD engine, condenses into a little bay cloud in your driveway. Simple. Stuff.

    Okay, that's why I believe in contrails.

    What irks me is that with all the evil stuff going on in this world, why do so many otherwise well intentioned people get sucked into these theories? 9/11 an inside job? I hope you don't mean that George W. Bush was involved, because he couldn't find his own butt if he used both hands. And just why would the "chemtrails" conspirators do all this at 30000 feet when they could do it unseen at 1000 at night? Wouldn't it be easier to control it if it were done from a lower altitude?

    What I really want to say is this: There is plenty of evil being done in the world. Evil that is being done in the open. You don't need to invent an unseen conspiracy. There are plenty of visible conspiracies. Focus your attention on those evils. If "chemtrails" are a problem, lets deal with that AFTER we deal with some of the other, more immediate problems. Focus, people. The problems are right here on Earth, not flying around in the sky.
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  26. TopTop #137
    daynurse
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    amen!

    Quote paulswetdog wrote: View Post
    there is plenty of evil being done in the world. Evil that is being done in the open. You don't need to invent an unseen conspiracy. There are plenty of visible conspiracies. Focus your attention on those evils. If "chemtrails" are a problem, lets deal with that after we deal with some of the other, more immediate problems. Focus, people. The problems are right here on earth, not flying around in the sky.
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  28. TopTop #138
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails







    As I have stated already, repeatedly, in this thread: In Story #9, of Project Censored, in their Top Ten Censored Stories of 2011 ,

    Rady Ananda wrote:

    "... At a recent international symposium, scientists asserted that “manipulation of climate through modification of cirrus clouds is neither a hoax nor a conspiracy theory.” The only conspiracy surrounding geo-engineering is that most governments and industry refuse to publicly admit what anyone can see in the sky or discover in peer-reviewed research. The Belfort Group, has been working to raise public awareness about toxic aerial spraying – popularly known as chemtrails. However, scientists preferred the term ‘persistent contrails’ to describe the phenomenon, to move the inquiry away from amateur conspiracy theories."


    Need I say it again? "...what anyone can see in the sky or discover in peer-reviewed research..."

    There actually is another "conspiracy" that goes on these days regarding the very real phenomenon of chemtrail haze emitted from the bellies of cargo planes - and that is a very elaborate, and well-funded and coordinated "conspiracy" to contain the dissemination of this information among the people. To facilitate this end of the Operati0n there are a host of well-paid free-lance shills in civvies and quite a few government men in gray suits and scientists in
    white smocks.

    Much of the containment of knowledge about this subject is also done - as these three threads on WaccoBB.net abundantly indicate - by the well-meaning dupes among us who desperately feel the need to tell themselves that the phenomenon itself is not Real, but rather a "conspiracy theory" dreamed up - and promoted, by a couple of crazy loons in the mid-west.

    Not only do "most governments and industry refuse to publicly admit what anyone can see in the sky or discover in peer-reviewed research"; You also, who are in denial about this phenomenon, also refuse to admit - to yourselves - that you see anything in the skies these days that is Novel =OR= Other, than the clouds and contrails that we all saw as children.

    I understand how hard it is to open to the notion that Death could be pouring down upon us from the clouds. Clouds, in the Subc
    onscious, have always been associated with positive things - like Angels, and cotton candy. The old question still remains, as relevant as ever: "What have they done to the Rain?"

    I understand the human tendency to engage in denial - especially when it comes to the issue of genocides and holocausts. For the longest time I was in denial about the genocidal aspect of this phenomenon, myself... Even as recently as a few months ago, when I made my first post on this thread. How could the rulers of N.A.T.O. - who are alleged, by the opponents of chemtrails to be the perpetraitors of this programme - be so evil as to engage in the slow kill of their own populations??

    G
    oogle Advanced Search:
    "slow kill" ,
    N.A.T.O. , chemtrails

    The Jews of Hungary were in denial about the reality of the on-going genocide of the Jews of Europe - even though they had all heard
    rumors {all 800,00 of them} that it was really happening; and even when, in fact, they were the only community of Jews in Europe still left alive and intact.

    Just reflect that even today there are many folks who deny that there ever was a holocaust conducted by Hitler, Himmler, & Co., against the Jews of Europe. Well, we know that such volks are in error. We consider - correctly - that the
    deniers of the holocaust are very, very wrong - criminally wrong, in some cases. The holocaust of the 1940's was Real - and so is this one.

    G
    oogle Search:
    holocaust, chemtrails

    According to the "former" C.I.A. Agent, John Stockwell, the C.I.A., between the years 1947 to 1987, was accountable for at least six million deaths around the world. Roughly two million Indochinese died in the Neo-colonial wars
    conducted by the good old United States, in Viet Nam, Cambodia, and Laos, after 1965. Perhaps as many as two million Iraqis have died as a result of U.S. foreign policy in the Fertile Crescent since 1991. The number - whatever it is, is enormous.

    Such things { genocides } have happened before; and there is really no reason to believe - other than wishful thinking - that they might not happen again. Or, for that matter, that such things are not already happening, against the plebes in general, even Now...


    Our government has done many dreadful things before,
    concerning which, many Americans are in denial;
    to wit:



    Beyond Treason







    PART 1 *** PART 2 *** PART 3




    Last edited by Iolchan; 03-20-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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  29. TopTop #139
    jbox's Avatar
    jbox
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Hi Mark,

    For me, Jay Reynolds has put this chemtrail discussion to bed and I fail to see why you keep asserting something you have shown no proof is real. You see contrails in the sky, big deal. I challenge you to get down to the nut of the matter and explain WHO is doing it, WHY they are doing it, HOW is it being paid for, WHY this has been happening during the administrations of 4 presidents, WHY don't they be insidious and dastardly and do their spraying at night? You seem to think it's a population control effort aimed at "useless eaters" but why spray the entire population? I could go on but why? This whole discussion is so ridiculous it's become funny. Your fascination with the boogey man doesn't begin and end here, however. You once told me that you believe John Jenkel's woes stemmed from government agents specifically targeting him with some weird Buck Rogers ray or beam that reduced him to putty in the hands insidious developers and the courts. Golly!! Look, Mark, you can believe what you want but please don't knock yourself out trying to get me to buy in.
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  30. Gratitude expressed by 4 members:

  31. TopTop #140
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Quote jbox wrote: View Post
    ...For me, Jay Reynolds has put this chemtrail discussion to bed ... I challenge you to get down to the nut of the matter and explain WHO is doing it, WHY they are doing it, HOW is it being paid for, WHY this has been happening during the administrations of 4 presidents, WHY ...
    I agree, Jay's added some real concrete information. I don't agree that the why/how questions are the first questions for Mark to address, though. Too often that ends up with nothing more than plausible speculations. But there are real objective claims and measurements that could be taken. For example, the "constructive geometry" that Mark described using for altitude determination doesn't make sense to me on the scale of mountain-range-to-mountain-range. A carpenter can do it by himself on a worksite, because he can simultaneously reach all the corners of the triangle. How that extends to a triangle miles across, without assistants or measuring devices, eludes me. I'm more curious to hear that clearly explained than to hear who's got it in for us.
    Last edited by podfish; 03-21-2012 at 09:06 AM. Reason: masking illiteracy and bad speling
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  33. TopTop #141
    Jay Reynolds
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    But there are real objective claims and measurements that could be taken. For example, the "constructive geometry" that Mark described using for altitude determination doesn't make sense to me on the scale of mountain-range-to-mountain-range. A carpenter can do it by himself on a worksite, because he can simultaneously reach all the corners of the triangle. How that extends to a triangle miles across, without assistants or measuring devices, eludes me. I'm more curious to hear that clearly explained than to hear who's got it in for us.
    Yes, Mark has been very cagey on explaining how he makes this "guesstimate" which he also calls "constructive geometry". He posted some pictures of what look like ordinary contrails back around post #58 of this thread, but neglected to take a photo of the actual plane. Probably just a speck at six miles high like all the videos he has been showing as proof.

    What he could do would be to take a photo of one of these planes he says are approx one mile up(5-6000 ft), then go to a location one mile from an airport, at an identifiable landmark, and take a picture of an airliner using the same camera and setting. Such a comparison will show if the photographs of the plane are taken at similar distances.

    I'm trying to work with him, giving all sorts of suggestions and ways he can make his case, but he keeps avoiding the issue like a plague.

    On the other thread, he's berating me for not answering his questions, but when I ask him for proof of the premise implied in the questions (that the planes are at low altitudes incompatible with contrails) he avoids doing so.

    Until he actually comes up with some real evidence, confirmable, explainable, and documented in a reasonable way amounting to proof, all we can do is wait and watch him flounder trying to avoid doing so.
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  35. TopTop #142
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails




    Catching up...


    paulswetdog wrote:


    A. I don't believe the "chemtrails" theory. Period. The contrails explanation suits me fine. Scientific fact: Warm, moist air, quickly cooled, will condense out the water vapor. Scientific fact: Combustion releases water vapor. What happens when you start your car on a cold morning? Right, water vapor, from the combustion of gasoline in your car's COLD engine, condenses into a little bay cloud in your driveway. Simple. Stuff.

    Okay, that's why I believe in contrails.

    What irks me is that with all the evil stuff going on in this world, why do so many otherwise well intentioned people get sucked into these theories? 9/11 an inside job? I hope you don't mean that George W. Bush was involved, because he couldn't find his own butt if he used both hands. And just why would the "chemtrails" conspirators do all this at 30000 feet when they could do it unseen at 1000 at night? Wouldn't it be easier to control it if it were done from a lower altitude?

    What I really want to say is this: There is plenty of evil being done in the world. Evil that is being done in the open. You don't need to invent an unseen conspiracy. There are plenty of visible conspiracies. Focus your attention on those evils. If "chemtrails" are a problem, lets deal with that AFTER we deal with some of the other, more immediate problems. Focus, people. The problems are right here on Earth, not flying around in the sky.

    Scientific fact: Warm, moist air, quickly cooled, will condense out the water vapor. Scientific fact: Combustion releases water vapor. What happens when you start your car on a cold morning? Right, water vapor, from the combustion of gasoline in your car's COLD engine, condenses into a little bay cloud in your driveway. Simple. Stuff.

    Utter nonsense. "Contrails" are ice crystals, not "condensed water vapor." This doesn't happen in the driveway - except in Minnesota & other sub-zero, freezing cold climates, during the Winter. Simple stuff, indeed.

    Furthermore "contrails" are not "chemtrails - or "persistent contrails" - as the Belfort Group prefers to term the phenomenon;"stratospheric seeding with aluminum oxide… thorium oxide … and refractory Welsbach material,that fan out into false clouds.


    What I really want to say is this: There is plenty of evil being done in the world. Evil that is being done in the open. You don't need to invent an unseen conspiracy. There are plenty of visible conspiracies. Focus your attention on those evils. If "chemtrails" are a problem, lets deal with that AFTER we deal with some of the other, more immediate problems. Focus, people. The problems are right here on Earth, not flying around in the sky.

    Yes, there sure is plenty of evil being done in the world - and "Chemtrails" is only One of several Fronts in the War that the Super-Rich are waging against the Plebeians of the planet. To call them an "unseen conspiracy" is absurd - they are only "unseen" because you {PL.} refuse to See them.

    Furthermore, to make a distinction between what is being done to the atmosphere of the Earth and say that it does not affect the Earth itself, is patently Absurd. One can not divorce the Atmosphere of Planet Terra from Planet Terra Herself. What goes up must come down - and it does.... The Atmosphere, the Streams, Lakes and Oceans, and the Earth Herself are all One Ecosystem. Don't you know that ?

    Fallout from Chemtrails is
    polluting the very air we Breathe with
    nano-particles of Aluminum, Barium, Strontium, and more... It is affecting all plant life, the soil, the trees, the water, and all living beings who dwell down here in the dust of this Earth.


    jbox wrote:
    Hi Mark,

    For me, Jay Reynolds has put this chemtrail discussion to bed and I fail to see why you keep asserting something you have shown no proof is real. You see contrails in the sky, big deal. I challenge you to get down to the nut of the matter and explain WHO is doing it, WHY they are doing it, HOW is it being paid for, WHY this has been happening during the administrations of 4 presidents, WHY don't they be insidious and dastardly and do their spraying at night? You seem to think it's a population control effort aimed at "useless eaters" but why spray the entire population? I could go on but why? This whole discussion is so ridiculous it's become funny. Your fascination with the boogey man doesn't begin and end here, however. You once told me that you believe John Jenkel's woes stemmed from government agents specifically targeting him with some weird Buck Rogers ray or beam that reduced him to putty in the hands insidious developers and the courts. Golly!! Look, Mark, you can believe what you want but please don't knock yourself out trying to get me to buy in.


    I challenge you to get down to the nut of the matter and explain WHO is doing it, WHY they are doing it, HOW is it being paid for, WHY this has been happening during the administrations of 4 presidents, WHY don't they be insidious and dastardly and do their spraying at night? You seem to think it's a population control effort aimed at "useless eaters" but why spray the entire population?

    It is quite evident that you have neither read my earlier posts on this thread, nor opened any of the links that I embedded in any of the text I have posted. It is advisable to at least make oneself familiar with what one's opponent has written before you take it upon yourself to ignorantly attack it. e.g. :

    iolchan wrote:

    Evidence collected for over a decade reveals that chemtrails are used for at least seven functions, including weather control and military applications, and are comprised of a wide variety of harmful ingredients. They commonly include aluminium and barium, which are toxic to both humans and to the environment. They may include radioactive thorium, desiccated red blood cells, dangerous pathogens, including Mycoplasma Fermentens Incognitus, plus mold spores, ethylene dibromide, and self-replicating nanotubes that cause Morgellon’s disease, which according to researcher Clifford Carnicom’s findings, now contaminate virtually everyone.


    WHO is doing it, WHY they are doing it?

    It is being done in all of the N.A.T.O. pact countries, by the N.A.T.O. powers; owned and operated by the North Atlantic, Anglo-American, power elite. It is also being done in the Third World, and China. The Evergreen Corporation - who have a long history of doing contract work for the C.I.A. - are heavily involved in the actual operational end of the Chemtrails Operations.

    WHY this has been happening during the administrations of 4 presidents?

    Because all of the "presidents," whether Republican or Democrat, are - essentially - puppets of the Military-Industrial Complex. Is that so hard for you to understand?


    As far as Why don't they do their spraying at night? The plain fact is, they do. As to HOW it is being paid for - that's easy - You are. Through the old Keynesian float, it is added to the National Debt, and through your income taxes, you pay. FUN, isn't it?

    You once told me that you believe John Jenkel's woes stemmed from government agents specifically targeting him with some weird Buck Rogers ray or beam that reduced him to putty in the hands insidious developers and the courts.


    Those are very far from the actual the words that I used, Jon, nor is that the correct or current terminology for the technology that is in existence. Before you mock and scoff, why don't you better educate yourself by referring to the work of Julianne McKinney, and/or go to the following website:

    www.freedomfchs.com { Freedom from covert harassment and surveillance } =OR=

    Google Advanced Search: microwave, "beam weapons", "targetted individual"


    "For me, Jay Reynolds has put this chemtrail discussion to bed..."

    That's because you've been asleep before you went to bed. Had you been following the debate, or carefully reading all of my posts on this thread, you wouldn't have asked such questions. And I have spent plenty of time answering your objections before - on post #90, for instance:

    iolchan wrote:
    Jon,
    Contrails have not become chemtrails. Contrails are still contrails - and ever will be, while there are jet engines on airplanes...
    Chemtrails are a new phenomena, that, beginning in 1984, and especially since 1989, have made a spectacular appearance in our skies. Unlike classical jet contrails, chemtrails are not ice crystals. Unlike "contrails," chemtrails are not a high altitude phenomena. Unlike "classical" jet contrails, chemtrails fan out into clouds, and often become a haze that covers the whole sky.



    podfish wrote:

    But there are real objective claims and measurements that could be taken. For example, the "constructive geometry" that Mark described using for altitude determination doesn't make sense to me on the scale of mountain-range-to-mountain-range. A carpenter can do it by himself on a worksite, because he can simultaneously reach all the corners of the triangle. How that extends to a triangle miles across, without assistants or measuring devices, eludes me. I'm more curious to hear that clearly explained than to hear who's got it in for us.
    Just IMAGINE, if you will, Poddy, a Triangle; an acute triangle, with one side that is roughly five miles long and almost horizontal. In Fact, it would be horizontal if the altitude of my cottage (which is roughly 145o feet above Sea Level) were at the same altitude as some point you must visualize as five miles away, and at an altitude of 2400 feet, on the Ridge. O.K. Got that?

    This hypothetical Triangle, Poddy, would be a proper Right Angle triangle if my dwelling were at the same altitude as the opposite Ridge, because the tracks that are laid in the sky are usually laid directly above the Mayacama Ridge, in the wee hours of the morning, when it is yet dark. Got that?

    The two long sides of this triangle are therefore - let us say - one at five miles {that's from my Situation to a point on the opposite Ridge} and a higher line - and a somewhat longer line - from my vantage point { Remember, I am located at the extreme Acute point of the Triangle,} to a point that is directly above the Ridge.

    What I am able to tell you All, honestly and without hesitation, from Years of being a Witness to this Phenomenon, is that the distance between the top of the Ridge to the Chemtrail Tracks that are laid above the Ridge, varies, from about two and a half to three or four thousand feet in Altitude, Above the Ridge...

    Therefore, when we add this distance to the altitude of the Ridge itself, we get the composite, Rough, "guess-timate" of the Altitudes of the Chemtrails at five to six thousand feet in elevation above Sea Level.

    >Which, you should Realize, is far too low an altitude for "classical" contrails to form; because Classical "contrails" start at (roughly) twenty-eight thousand feet, or more, and can not exist - or persist - in Air that is warmer than thirty-two degrees Fahrenheit, or 0 degrees Celsius.<

    Yes, from years of being a carpenter, I am able to calculate measurements, and compare distances in my head. And the difference between the "Long Sides" of this Triangle, {From my eye to the Ridgeline & from my eye to the Chemtrail-line;} and the "Short Side" {between the Ridge-line and the Chemtrail} is - often & approximately - a factor of 10X.


    Sometimes it is more; sometimes less.
    Sorry; but I don't possess a Sextant.

    What I am saying, in plain English, is that the distance between the top of the Ridge to the Chemtrails above the Ridge is - often - only about one-tenth of the distance from my Situation/ Vantage point to the Ridge itself.

    Jay Reynolds wrote:


    Yes, Mark has been very cagey on explaining how he makes this "guesstimate" which he also calls "constructive geometry". He posted some pictures of what look like ordinary contrails back around post #58 of this thread, but neglected to take a photo of the actual plane. Probably just a speck at six miles high like all the videos he has been showing as proof.

    What he could do would be to take a photo of one of these planes he says are approx one mile up(5-6000 ft), then go to a location one mile from an airport, at an identifiable landmark, and take a picture of an airliner using the same camera and setting. Such a comparison will show if the photographs of the plane are taken at similar distances.

    I'm trying to work with him, giving all sorts of suggestions and ways he can make his case, but he keeps avoiding the issue like a plague.

    On the other thread, he's berating me for not answering his questions, but when I ask him for proof of the premise implied in the questions (that the planes are at low altitudes incompatible with contrails) he avoids doing so.

    Until he actually comes up with some real evidence, confirmable, explainable, and documented in a reasonable way amounting to proof, all we can do is wait and watch him flounder trying to avoid doing so.


    Yes, Mark has been very cagey...

    AS you judge, you shall be judged.

    He posted some pictures of what look like ordinary contrails back around post #58 of this thread...

    In that statement, Jay you reveal yourself to be a most deceitful liar."Contrails" never, ever fan into clouds, and spread out into haze - not at six miles high - and not at six thousand feet, either. No. Those were Chemtrails; directly above us, and very close. In a short time - less than an hour - the canyon was covered with a thick Chem-spew haze.

    I'm trying to work with him, giving all sorts of suggestions and ways he can make his case, but he keeps avoiding the issue like a plague.

    On the other thread, he's berating me for not answering his questions, but when I ask him for proof of the premise implied in the questions (that the planes are at low altitudes incompatible with contrails) he avoids doing so.

    It is You, Mr. Reynolds, who avoid answering the Issues that I have raised, in a timely way, and, instead, seize upon a "perceived weak point" {my words} in one of my posts; the statement that I am able to make a rough estimate of the altitude of the chemtrail tracks that I have consciously observed
    , for over thirteen years, directly above the Ridge on the opposite side of the canyon from where I've lived.

    This debate is not about me. It is - or WAS - about "Chemtrails." I am only one witness of many hundred of thousands - perhaps millions - of witnesses all around the planet, who see low altitude Chemtrails in the skies on a near daily basis these days. There are plenty of low-altitude, line-segment Chemtrail- clouds {also known as "chem-spews"} all over Sonoma County: East, West, North, South - and on nearly a daily basis.


    Anyone can see them with their own, naked eyes - that is, if they care to look up. I quoted a line from an historically - & sociologically - significant song, earlier on this thread:


    "How many times must a man look up, before he can see the sky?"



    It's a very legitimate, existentially deep, and valid question; still. Because all of you see the phenomenon of chemtrails in the sky above us, and on a near-daily basis, unless you are blind.

    Pilots of small planes, with altimeters fully operational have been able to document the very real phenomenon of low altitude chemtrail spraying, for years. And there are also plenty of up-close films on youtube indicating that spray nozzles in the damned planes are being turned off and on. I posted two or three of these videos on this same thread. Go back and look at them.


    Indeed, it does appear, that there is a spigot inside the plane that is being turned on and off; opened and closed.






    I wrote on the Chemtrails Redux thread:


    iolchan wrote:

    Two legitimate Questions & one valid point







    iolchan wrote:

    Rather than address the issues, and engage in a debate on the points I have raised, {in the post above,} Mr. "Jay" Reynolds, artful dodger that he is, endeavors, once again to evade the issues, take a low tack, go on the offensive, and put me on the spot, by once again questioning my integrity and competence as a witness. He does not answer the Questions I have already posed because he can not. It can not be done. There are no "reasonable, rational, and scientific explanations" for the Scientific Quandry posed by the issues I raised in these three points:

    [1] No reasonable, rational, and scientific explanation has yet emerged from the chemtrail
    "contra" camp explaining how it is that line segment "clouds" are generated by jet planes laying tracks at low {warm air} altitudes, in the troposphere.

    [2] The results of the spraying - that is, chemtrail "haze" clouds - being a low altitude phenomenon, in the troposphere - are not authentic, natural, "classical" cirrus clouds.

    [3] Neither are they classical "contrails" - i.e., ice crystals - in layers of cold air in the troposphere, or freezing air
    in the stratosphere.




    So, Once Again, I Challenge You, Jay Reynolds, to respond to the Questions/ Issues of the three points that I posed, above. Will you? No; you will not, because you can not.


    No one can. It can not be done.




    And that is the true significance of why Mr. "Jay" Reynolds, without a Clue as to how to answer that post of mine for over two weeks, lit upon the old demagogic trick & expedient of accusing me of making a "lie." - Which is a Libel.



    Again, Let Mr. Reynolds be served Notice that my challenge to him takes precedence and priority over his challenge to me; because, in the debate - such as it is - my challenge came first.
    Read Robert's Rules of Order. He does not answer the Questions I have already posed because he can not. It can not be done - by anyone. There are no "reasonable, rational, and scientific explanations" for the Scientific Quandry posed by the issues I have raised in those three points.

    It is not necessary for me to re-invent the wheel, or defensively, prove that I am a truth-teller, or establish that, in fact, I do see from my deck that which I have already witnessed, and testified to. I do agree that it is an interesting scientific assignment to present you all with "proof" that the chem-trails that are sprayed on a near daily basis in the vicinity of the County line, begin at the low altitude of five to six thousand feet.

    But for now - and until or if ever, I acquire the necessary gear and assistants, to perform the Operation that Mr. Reynolds has thrust before me as a challenge - Let the interested Public perform the following web-searches, on the Subject of the altitude of Chem-trail sightings.
    No need to re-invent the Wheel. No need for more "proof" on this subject; the work has been done for us:


    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "5000 feet"

    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "6000 feet"

    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, altimeter , feet


    If the "Interested Public" will perform these Web searches on Altitude, and Study - {that's something we were all theoretically required to do when we were in school; Remember?} - Then, indeed, We {Plural} might get a little more light on the FACT that "Low Altitude Chem-trail Spraying" in the Troposphere is a Reality.


    Plato wrote:
    "The only way to ensure the peoples' happiness is to let them sup upon sweet lies rather than bitter truth."

    Ben Hecht wrote:
    "Wrap evil in Righteous words - and who will examine the package? Statescraft is as simple as that, and so are the multitudes who buy its wrappings. All they ask is assurance from the proper authorities that black is white..."


    Mark Walter Evans






    Last edited by Iolchan; 03-24-2012 at 01:45 AM.
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  37. TopTop #143
    Jay Reynolds
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Mark,
    You sure like to cloud up your posts with lots of gibberish. A distraction, I suppose, but most can see through that. You say I'm not responding to your questions, but all three of them contain a claim which remians unsupported. You premise each question by the assumption that low altitude trails are what you observe,
    yet you refuse to show any documentation, explanation, or evidence for your claim!

    If you want a responsive answer to your questions, there is no way anyone can answer them until you first provide proof for your premise. All of us are asking for it, yet you refuse to give anything except more unfounded claims and obfuscatory directives to do google searches which yield nothing.

    If you have proof for your claims, why not show it?
    Well, obviously you don't, so you can't.
    Everyone can see this, and it's getting tiresome.

    Here's your latest:
    "Pilots of small planes, with altimeters fully operational have been able to document the very real phenomenon of low altitude chemtrail spraying, for years."

    Ok, if this has been documented "for years", just show us the documentation, ok?

    But you won't. This is just another ruse, isn't it?

    Mark, you are making yourself look really bad, with these constant claims yet nothing to back them up with.
    You make the claim, you back it up, Mark. That's the way life is. You must have missed the very important lessons most of us learned in childhood about Chicken Little, and The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

    Stop this infantile regression, and be a man. If you can't hack others disbelief in your unfounded claims, why make them at all? Are you such a glutton for attention that you wish to deliberately make a fool of yourself for it? If so, you are a madman.
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  39. TopTop #144
    Jay Reynolds
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Mark, These two talks are my fatherly gift to you:
    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/mic...ge_things.html

    http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/mic...deception.html

    Happy 'Trails!
    Jay
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  41. TopTop #145
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails



    G
    oogle
    Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "5000 feet"


    Videos for chemtrails, altitude, "5000 feet" chemtrails
    :



    Another Day In The Life Of Chemtrails - www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcuuVevu0cY

    A Day In The Life Of Chemtrails - www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    Chemtrails over Los Angeles March 1, 2009 www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X4PzHMZYsU


    Data from a {very} Few of the Many Sites that come up :



    Chemtrails occur at altitudes and in environmental conditions where traditional ... and recorded over Penetanguishene at 5000 feet on a warm Summer evening!www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/tinyties2003.html


    Chemtrails - cancertruth.info
    ...chemtrails, geo-engineering. ... or only in certain altitudes where it's cold enough (-40°F) to turn the water vapor to ice. ... The planes I saw spraying the chemtrails ( in the pictures above) could not have been higher than 5000 feet, which was ...

    www.cancertruth.info/chemtrails.html/


    Chemtrails at very low altitude! Scientifically, "contrails" cannot form ...
    May 15, 2008 ... Scientifically, "contrails" cannot form under 30K altitude. ... I said 5000 feet. ... Low Altitude So-Called Chemtrails; ...
    www.flickr.com/photos/chromelung7/2496575766/



    Chemtrails : Did we ever reach a consensus? - Unexplained ...
    People are reporting trails at less than 5000 feet, trails that suddenly appear from a ... EVERY video I've seen shows these "chemtrails" at the altitudes of cruising ...
    www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic...

    Contrails or Chemtrails? (goverment, society, American, company ...
    Feb 1, 2012 ... Chemtrails usually occur at altitudes of 25000 feet or lower, which is ... over Penetanguishene at 5000 feet on a warm Summer evening!
    www.city-data.com/.../1482843-contrails-chemtrails-goverment-society- american-company-38.html

    Chem Trails in Ohio???
    Mar 23, 2007 ... Kucinich's bill explicitly outlaws "chemtrails." ... What altitude are they flying at? ... Our skies are multilane highways with 5000 feet of vertical ...
    www.city-data.com/.../8555-chem-trails-ohio-clinton-florida-public-2.html

    The Truth Denied Breaking News - PLANE CRASH in ARIZONA ...

    Nov 30, 2011 ... Chemtrails News Explanation of Chemtrails Chemtrails Archive 1 Chemtrails .... The elevation is about 5000 feet at the Superstition Mountains' ...
    www.thetruthdenied.com/.../plane-crash-in-arizona-mysterious-findings-as- public-is-shut-out-from-the-truth/

    Mohave County Board Health Epidemiologist Masters Chemtrail ...
    Dec 26, 2011 ... Home » Chemtrail News, Featured » Mohave County Board of Health Epidemiologist Shills for Her Masters .... Natural jet contrails need at least 28k altitude & high humidity. ... The trail had to be only 4-5000 feet high at most.
    aircrap.org/mohave-county-board-health...chemtrail.../333580/

    Filer's Files - Tracers

    chemtrails falls to the ground and often makes some people sick with flu like symptoms and skin ... We can estimate altitude of the craft based on the angle and distance. .... The disk was at approximately 3000 to 5000 feet moving silently in an ...
    tracers.8m.com/filer31.html

    Chemtrails Over San Diego
    Nov 28, 2002 ... Even my 4 year old son can tell the difference between a chemtrail and a contrail now. ... Another low chemtrail, possible 4000-5000 feet.
    www.rense.com/general32/san.htm


    Making Chemtrails a Canadian Election Issue...
    ...altitude and in any kind of weather. Chemtrails have been documented as low as 5000 feet, too low for any natural contrail to form. /And ...
    www.indiadivine.org/.../948146-making-chemtrails-canadian-election-issue. html


    I could go on...and on... and on... and on... And Perhaps I must. Will you Concede, Mr. John Boyd Reynolds, that you can not answer or address these very pertinent Questions and Issues ? - to wit :


    [1] No reasonable, rational, and scientific explanation has yet emerged from the chemtrail
    "contra" camp explaining how it is that line segment "clouds" are generated by jet planes laying tracks at low {warm air} altitudes, in the troposphere.

    [2] The results of the spraying - that is, chemtrail "haze" clouds - being a low altitude phenomenon, in the troposphere - are not authentic, natural, "classical" cirrus clouds.

    [3] Neither are they classical "contrails" - i.e., ice crystals - in layers of cold air in the troposphere, or freezing air
    in the stratosphere.




    Mark Walter Evans


    Last edited by Iolchan; 03-23-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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  42. Gratitude expressed by:

  43. TopTop #146
    Jay Reynolds
     

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Mark, until you show some sort of proof that any of these planes you see are below 5k ft. no one can answer your questions. Most of the links you put out above don't work at all, and none of them contain anything more than claims. Don't expect further replies as I have been forced to conclude that you are not really interested in answers, since you aren't interested in proving your case anyways.

    I find that in my frustration with you I have become somewhat rude. I'd prefer to not be that way, and admit that I have become frustrated trying to wring some facts out of you. This is a sign that we have reached a dead end, and I expect it may take some more years and hopefully a more mature Mark to make sense of this.
    I wish you luck, most chemtrails believers only hold onto this for about ten years max, hopefully you can escape sooner. If you don't, seek some professional help.

    Thanks to everyone else for putting up with me. I may be back when there are some significant developments you need to know about.
    Happy 'Trails,
    Jay Reynolds
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  44. Gratitude expressed by 3 members:

  45. TopTop #147
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Mark,

    Please don't post links that you haven't personally visited and inspected. Please only pick the top 1 or 2 links that you think are the most authoritative.

    Barry
    Moderator
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  46. Gratitude expressed by:

  47. TopTop #148
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    Barry wrote:


    Mark,

    Please don't post links that you haven't personally visited and inspected. Please only pick the top 1 or 2 links that you think are the most authoritative.

    Barry
    Moderator

    I did vet the links Barry. They all worked when I was gathering them on
    Google. That a few of them went blank is a minor mystery - but no surprise.


    Jay Reynolds wrote:


    Mark, until you show some sort of proof that any of these planes you see are below 5k ft. no one can answer your questions. Most of the links you put out above don't work at all, and none of them contain anything more than claims. Don't expect further replies as I have been forced to conclude that you are not really interested in answers, since you aren't interested in proving your case anyways.

    I find that in my frustration with you I have become somewhat rude. I'd prefer to not be that way, and admit that I have become frustrated trying to wring some facts out of you. This is a sign that we have reached a dead end, and I expect it may take some more years and hopefully a more mature Mark to make sense of this.

    I wish you luck, most chemtrails believers only hold onto this for about ten years max, hopefully you can escape sooner. If you don't, seek some professional help.


    Thanks to everyone else for putting up with me. I may be back when there are some significant developments you need to know about.

    Happy 'Trails,
    Jay Reynolds



    Those are the words of a man whose job & assignment is all about Containing/Stopping the spread of consciousness about chemtrails. It is not out of Altruism that he does this, or out of Love for Humanity. Read his words. He is an Adept at all the old the demagogic tricks - of discrediting the opposition by Libel and Defamation of character - of obfuscating, dodging, and avoiding the Issues that have been raised.

    It is obvious that he does not want any of the local Sonoma County Waccobbite audience to check out any of the links I put up, or do the web-searches I have detailed; for the simple reason that those links prove my case; i.e., that there are many, many people all around the globe who are witnesses to the reality of low-altitude chemtrail spraying in the Troposphere - at five thousand feet, and even much, much lower...

    Don't be Lazy. Think for Yourself.
    Study - Learn - Grow. Resist. Do the Homework:


    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "2000 feet"


    G
    oogle
    Advanced Search:
    chemtrails, altitude, "3000 feet"


    G
    oogle
    Advanced Search:
    chemtrails, altitude, "4000 feet"


    G
    oogle
    Advanced Search:
    chemtrails, altitude, "5000 feet"


    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "6000 feet"


    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, altimeter , feet


    Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, C.I.A. , "containment"



    Mark






    Last edited by Iolchan; 03-25-2012 at 11:11 PM.
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  48. TopTop #149
    Iolchan
    Guest

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails



    Yesterday evening, I received the following missive in my e-mailbox, from someone who has been following this dialog for some considerable while. This person - who wishes to remain Anonymous - has asked me to post this here, without any alterations :


    Dear Mark Evans, Mr. Jay Reynolds…..and his Followers, as well as other residents in Sonoma County:

    It is interesting that anyone would consider insights into human nature from a philosopher of Plato’s magnitude to be so much “gibberish”. Meanwhile, the writings of Ben Hecht have long been under attack, via censorship and book banning in this country, by men who would applaud Jay Reynolds’ tactics in a supposed ‘debate’.

    It seems that Reynolds’ main objective is to debunk the notion that chemtrails are in existence. He attacks Evans’ assertion that the abnormal “trails left by airplanes flying at approximately 5,000 ft., near his home, could NOT possibly be ice crystals” by saying that the correctness of Mark Evans’ guess-timate cannot be proven, or considered scientific without the measurements and data recorded by certain scientific equipment, (as opposed to the naked eye.)

    If Mr. Reynolds is so confident in his ability to discredit the opposition, why then doesn’t he investigate and try to discredit other witnesses to the chemtrail phenomenon (reported world-wide) whose reports are documented on the aforementioned websites? Chances are that those whistle-blowers, many of them defectors from the state department, trained by the scientific community and aviation industry have used the accuracy-qualifying equipment Jay insists upon for anyone filing such reports! If Reynolds had bothered to refer to those websites which bolster Marks’ arguments, in an effort to disqualify them, along with Mark, he would have been confronted with some very sophisticated, well-documented grounds for claims.

    What Mr. Reynolds is also implying is that nobody has the right to discuss the existence of chemtrails, unless they own or have access to such specialized, technological measuring devices, and that if someone insists on speaking about chemtrails, he is a “madman”. ……Amongst all the ‘delusional sky-watchers’, I guess then, there are also “mad” women. Would Mr. Reynolds dare to hurl that slur at another very concerned citizen, who also happens to be an intelligent, articulate, scientific member from the Department of Agriculture, Rosalind Peterson, who also documents chemtrail phenomenon? (http://www.agriculturedefensecoalition.org or [email protected]

    Meanwhile, there are other ways of gathering evidence for chemtrail phenomenon, and it has been done. It is the evidence collected from documented soil and snow samples, showing dangerously toxic, concentrated levels of aluminum, barium and arsenic where planes leaving chemtrails are frequently observed.

    Studies include Rosalind Petersons’ snow samples from Colorado and soil samples from northern California, the destruction of organic farming ventures on the Island of Hawaii, as documented by Michael Murphy and Edward Griffin in the film, “What In The World Are They Spraying?”

    For the sake of an intellectually honest, earnest debate, I recommend that witnesses to this thread refer to the information and studies Rosalind Peterson has provided on those websites. Find time to watch “What In The World Are They Spraying?” a documentary film featuring scientists, agriculture specialists and other environmentally-aware citizens. After you have educated yourselves better on the subject, then ask yourselves this question,

    “Why did Monsanto recently take out a patent for an aluminum-resistant GMO seed?”
    (There is more than one plausible explanation)

    Debates are supposed to sharpen our higher reasoning powers-not provide an arena for the ignorance of wishful thinking, or name-calling- without evidence, attempts at character defamation to avoid challenges in a debate, the adjectives of demagogues, and/or the intellectually-lame, misguided deference or spiritual submission to anyone who poses as an authority on science.

    We must all use our own eyes, ears and minds, do our homework by reading and listening to others with an openly, objective mind. Participation in a debate should not be spectators listening to a ping-pong game of words between two people, and then cheering for one side, like you would at a football game.

    It is a positive thing that a debate about chemtrails vs. contrails is taking place in our community.

    However, the debate between Mr. Reynolds and Mark Evans has come to a stalemate, stranglehold, because Mark does not own the equipment Mr. Reynolds insists upon for his estimates on altitudinal distance. Meanwhile, Mr. Reynolds refuses to acknowledge or answer the valid questions that Mark has posed repeatedly, throughout ‘the debate’.

    Mr. Reynolds lives 1,000 miles away from our skies, here in Sonoma County. Is he from 1,000 miles away, so telepathic, so godly omniscient, as to know that those trails could not possibly have been laid at five thousand feet? (“Liar”)

    Are our positions (spectators to the debate) on this subject, based upon what we actually know, or on what we want to believe? Ask yourselves, “Just how much do you really know about what goes on, during various “Geo-engineering” schemes-or those so-called Government “weather-modification programs” which use airplanes? What chemicals or particles are used in these geo-engineering schemes that tamper with our weather? Who came up with the term, “to weaponize space”? How does this affect the air we breathe? Here’s a question for your lungs, maybe even your brain -“Got aluminum particulates?”

    Our healthy lives on earth are contingent upon the quality of our air, our soil and the purity of our water. What then, compelled film-makers, Michael Murphy and Edward Griffin( and so many others) to ask, “What in the World are they Spraying?

    I know that Mr. Reynolds debunked the film, but don’t go by his ‘opinion’. Watch the film for your selves and try to understand, or answer the question,

    What in the World are They Spraying?
    What in the World are They Spraying?
    What in the World are They Spraying?


    Got Answers? How do we all win in a debate?

    Signed, “ No-time for cheerleaders”
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  49. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  50. TopTop #150
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

    I was going to let this pass till this:

    Quote Iolchan wrote: View Post
    ...Debates are supposed to sharpen our higher reasoning powers-not provide an arena for the ignorance of wishful thinking, or name-calling- without evidence, attempts at character defamation to avoid challenges in a debate, the adjectives of demagogues, and/or the intellectually-lame, misguided deference or spiritual submission to anyone who poses as an authority on science.
    I guess didn't read his own post.
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