Whooping cough cases soar in Sonoma County; Anti-vaccination crowd = murderers?

[Braggi]

The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.

Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Is this the same 'religious' crowd that refuses all medical treatments because it goes against their religion?

[Barry]

Is this the same 'religious' crowd that refuses all medical treatments because it goes against their religion?

I haven't read the article, but probably not.

The natural medicine crowd avoids vaccinations, and considers the cure being worse than the disease. We skipped all vaccinations except for tetanus.

Lots of childhood diseases are harmless when contracted as a child and provide excellent future immunity naturally. Vaccinations have known and unknown side effects and don't offer as complete immunity. Getting vaccinated as an infant, which totally overwhelms the nascent immune system, does not provide complete immunity. Should the disease be contracted as an adult, it is way more serious.

This led to odd spontaneous "playgroups" that formed around a sick child with German Measles, for instance, where the other parents would make sure their kids were exposed and contracted the disease!

As I remember, Whopping Cough was a more difficult decision then some of the other vaccinations we skipped, with the trade offs and risks being more balanced.

[Braggi]

... The natural medicine crowd avoids vaccinations, and considers the cure being worse than the disease. We skipped all vaccinations except for tetnus.

Lots of childhood diseases are harmless when contracted as a child and provide excellent future immunity naturally. Vaccinations have known and unknown side effects and don't offer as complete immunity. ...

Barry, you've stated a whole lot of misinformation, but I'm done with arguing here on WACCO about it. Do the research yourself. If your child dies because you didn't vaccinate that comes with a punishment that will last your lifetime. If your poor judgement kills your neighbor's kid you're unlikely to feel it's your fault and you won't be prosecuted. If it happened to my kid I would certainly sue the people responsible if I possibly could.

The "natural medicine" crowd proposes we skip true immune boosting through vaccinations by substituting a lot of totally unnatural and most likely harmful vitamins and "supplements." The evidence that any form of vitamin supplementation causes harm continues to mount.

It's a belief system not a science system that discourages vaccination. This is expressed through the vehement resistance to all the studies that continually prove the safety and effectiveness of vaccines and the folly of failing to vaccinate, as in the article linked above.

There's no shaking a belief system (a delusional system) with mere facts.

Sadly, it's killing and maiming children.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

This is a fascinating debate!

My wife and I have a friend (a Wacco subscriber that has posted on this board many times) who has never vaccinated her daughter. I would love to get her to read this thread and offer her side. She is a health expert, but not a licensed doctor.

We, on the other hand, have vaccinated our daughter for everything since she was a baby. Nonetheless, the fact that many vaccines have failed, or have actually infected, and in some cases even killed the recipients, offers at least some support to the "natural medicine" crowd.

The fact that this is not the "religious crowd" adds another element of intrigue to this dialectic. Although the religious argument against vaccines or any medical treatment, if I'm not mistaken, is legally protected by religious freedom. I'm wondering if there ever is legal prosecution, this might send the "natural medicine" crowd to jail while the religious anti-vaccine folks go free. After all, in this country, you can get away with almost anything as long as you cloak it in religion.

[Barry]

Whooping cough cases soar in Sonoma County
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...p=all&tc=pgall

Health officials declare whooping cough epidemic in California

By KERRY BENEFIELD
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Published: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 at 7:50 p.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 at 7:50 p.m.

Health officials declared a whooping cough epidemic in California on Wednesday at the same time Sonoma County officials are reporting 48 confirmed cases locally — up from four at the same time last year.

California had 910 recorded cases of whooping cough as of June 15, five of which resulted in deaths. All five deaths were Latino children under 3 months of age.

Infants are particularly at risk from whooping cough because even with a full vaccination schedule that begins at six weeks of age, full protection does not occur until a baby reaches six months, said Mary Maddux-Gonzalez, Sonoma County’s public health officer.

“They are more likely to get it, and they are more vulnerable to the complications,” she said Wednesday. “You really want to make sure that everyone who comes in contact with that child has been appropriately immunized.”

“It’s often transmitted from parents,” she said. “We are really encouraging parents to get immunized.”
Lack of information and inoculations in agricultural regions in the state’s Central Valley — home to many Latino farm workers — might be the reason for the high current incidence in that community, said Dr. Gilberto Chavez, the deputy director of the California Department of Public Health’s Center for Infectious Disease.

Locally, health officials said they have reached out to primary care physicians, day care providers and prenatal support personnel, using a communication system last employed to disseminate information about swine flu.
California is on pace to break a 50-year-old record for annual infections of whooping cough, also known as pertussis.

The 910 confirmed cases statewide is up from 219 cases at this time last year. At least 600 additional cases are under investigation by local health departments.

Health officials said the number of confirmed cases may only be a fraction of the number of people who actually have the disease because it has symptoms of a harsh, lingering cold.

Other symptoms include a runny nose and fever but not always the so-called “whooping noise.” Anyone suffering a persistent cough should seek medical advice, officials said.

“We haven’t actually had any reportable laboratory cases,” said Dr. Karen Tait, Lake County’s health officer. “Anecdotally, I’m aware of enough people with persistent coughs that I suspect it’s out there.”
Unlike some other vaccines, the whooping immunization loses its efficacy over time, health officials said.

Anyone over the age of 11 and especially those who care for newborn children are urged to get a pertussis booster.

Those boosters are now readily available — sometimes in a joint shot with the tetanus booster — another medication recommended every 10 years.

“This is where it is really concerning,” Tait said. “Older adults’ immunity has long since worn off, but if they are caring for young infants, they can transmit it to very young infants.”

Despite the dramatic increase in cases, officials say the worst could be yet to come.

The whooping cough season typically hits its peak in July and August.

Periodic outbreaks of the disease are not uncommon. Surges in cases occur cyclically, according to health officials.

But the numbers likely are also exacerbated by the decision by a growing number of families, especially in the North Bay, to opt out of immunizations.

California’s “personal belief exemption” is considered one of the most lax in the nation and in Sonoma County the number of family’s opting out is steadily growing.

The percentage of fully immunized students entering kindergarten classes in Sonoma County has steadily dipped from 91.6 percent in 2002 to 87.7 percent in 2008, according to state records. The statewide average is down by 0.6 points over the same period.

In nine school districts, six of them in the west county, the percentage of fully immunized kindergartners is less than 80 percent, a Public Health Department analysis said. Two school districts are below 60 percent.

“There is such a thing as herd immunity — when an adequate number (are immunized), those that aren’t receive some protection thanks to those who are,” Maddux-Gonzalez said. “Some people feel that this is an individual decision, but it can have a very serious consequence for other members of the community.”

“Many people have not seen some of these diseases and how serious they can be,” she said.

["Mad" Miles]

...Nonetheless, the fact that many vaccines have failed, or have actually infected, and in some cases even killed the recipients, offers at least some support to the "natural medicine" crowd.....

Hearsay, not fact. Not evidence. "many ... actually ... some"? What are the stats?

This issue has been roundly debated on this board in the past. I did a search and the H1N1 vaccination poll and discussion from last fall is available. The earliest thread I recall, on vaccinating children, is not.

From my news reading the most recent developments are:

The Autism link to vaccination has been thoroughly debunked. The English doctor who first made the claim has been discredited as a charlatan, a quack, and someone who made unsubstantiated and highly controversial claims about the supposed dangers of another proven treatment, before he discovered the anti-vaccine gravy train. I believe he's lost his British medical licence and has relocated to the U.S. and is making his money off of speaking and writing fees, and is no longer allowed to practice medicine.

I'm sure the, "he's a threat to the established medical industry, so they have discredited him with lies," conspiracy claim has already been made.


The newest news is what Braggi has provided today. Rates of infection have gone up due to non-vaccination in various populations.

In reading the comments from the ABC article, I saw anti-vaccination partisans making the same old unsubstantiated claims. But more vaguely than before when they could link to the "vaccinations cause autism" movement.

Someone mentioned the elimination of polio in America (U.S.), but no one mentioned the outbreak in northern Nigeria due to suspicion of the polio vaccine from anti-Western devout Muslims.

Others are trying to insinuate that illegal immigrants are the source of infection. How surpising (not!)


My brother and his ex-wife did not, for the most part, vaccinate their kids who grew up in the eighties and nineties in Sebastopol. They're all healthy, but that's anecdote, not science.

He's a believer in the natural immunity vs. exposure avoidance theory of disease. Exposing his kids to lots of dirt and animals, in a semi-rural environment, was his alternative to vaccination. But he was raised on allopathic medicine, including the full range of vaccinations available in the sixties and seventies.

The science shows that communicable diseases have been severely reduced, even eliminated, because of public health vaccination campaigns in the modern era.

Now, with sometimes justifiable suspicion of modern medicine and science, some of those diseases are coming back. These facts are irrefutable.

Parents who privilege the health of their own children, at the risk to the health of other children (and their own) in their community, are being selfish and irrational.

But those drives to first protect our own offspring, no matter the potential cost to others, are deep wired. They're unlikely to go away.

Only a crisis of epidemic (sic.) proportion is likely to reverse the anti-vaccination trend. Don't worry, it's happening!

That's assuming self-induced ecological collapse doesn't finish us off first...

I watched a Discovery channel speculative doc about, "Life After Oil," a few months ago. One of the points made was that massive contagious epidemics, with high death rates, would follow a breakdown of modern post-industrial society. Hard to coordinate vaccination of large populations, let alone responsive state of the art medical care, when distribution of goods is no longer possible on a wide scale.

Who else read the article about Kombucha yesterday with the warning about possible infections from the bacteria cultures in it? As big a guru of natural healing and nutrition as Andrew F. Weil, M.D., has weighed in (sic.) against it!

Truth is an illusive goal.

[Braggi]

... the fact that many vaccines have failed, or have actually infected, and in some cases even killed the recipients, offers at least some support to the "natural medicine" crowd. ...

Except that vaccines don't infect. This bogus claim largely comes out after someone gets the flu vaccine and winds up with "flu like symptoms." Well, duh. The vaccine stimulates your immune system by fooling it into thinking it's actually fighting the illness you're vaccinating against. So some symptoms are not only likely, they're the reason you took the vaccine to begin with. Usually the symptoms are so mild you don't even notice them.

The notion a vaccine can "fail" requires a longer response than I have time to make in a complete way. Some need boosters (as in the pertussis vaccine and the tetanus). Sometimes the flu vaccine, which is prepared at least six months in advance, is for the "wrong" flu virus because the scientists can't always accurately predict the exact virus coming around next year. And sometimes the immunization just isn't strong enough to fight off a particular bug. But then, there are few sciences that claim to produce products that are 100% effective. Compared to most products, vaccines are VERY effective.

As far as killing people, let's compare the number of people, as a percent of the population, that used to be killed or maimed as a result of communicable illnesses vs. the same numbers now. It's clear that immunizations save lives and a lot of them.

This is truly one area of health care where the "natural" community doesn't have a leg to stand on.

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Except that vaccines don't infect.

Except when 'mistakes' are made...

Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Baxter International Inc. in Austria unintentionally contaminated samples with the bird flu virus that were used in laboratories in three neighboring countries, raising concern about the potential spread of the deadly disease.

The contamination was discovered when ferrets at a laboratory in the Czech Republic died after being inoculated with vaccine made from the samples early this month. The material came from Deerfield, Illinois-based Baxter, which reported the incident to the Austrian Ministry of Health, Sigrid Rosenberger, a ministry spokeswoman, said today in a telephone interview.

“This was infected with a bird flu virus,” Rosenberger said. “There were some people from the company who handled it.”
Baxter Sent Bird Flu Virus to European Labs by Error (Update2) - Bloomberg

[Braggi]

Except when 'mistakes' are made...

Interesting that safeguards in the system prevented anyone from becoming infected. Good system.

And yes, mistakes happen. Nothing in life is risk free including life itself. In fact, human life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. The rest of us are just dying as slowly as we reasonably can.

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Interesting that safeguards in the system prevented anyone from becoming infected. Good system.

And yes, mistakes happen. Nothing in life is risk free including life itself. In fact, human life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. The rest of us are just dying as slowly as we reasonably can.

-Jeff

Good system? I don't think you understand what happened, or how. I also don't think you appreciate the gravity of what happened. It's a fascinating story about how humanity dodged a highly infectious pandemic, sheerly by accident.

For those who are interested;
Vaccines as Biological Weapons? Live Avian Flu Virus Placed in Baxter Vaccine Materials Sent to 18 Countries

and more
LifeGen.de - Editorial: Baxter’s H5N1 as global flu pandemic threat

and still more, this has details the above stories don't (for the really curious)
https://a12iggymom.vox.com/library/p...ent-scare.html

[Hotspring 44]

Here is some info of why non-religious parents opt-out of some or all vaccines.

The Vaccine Firestorm June 8, 2010 The Vaccine Firestorm Last Friday’s shocking news—the revelation of hidden financial ties and influence-peddling behind the World Health Organization’s declaration of a worldwide H1N1 pandemic—is only one of our articles this week on the controversial issue of immunization. We’ll tell you about flu vaccine deaths, fetal death and injury from mercury, a high government official formerly in charge of vaccines who now works for a drug and vaccine maker, and yet another tragic miscarriage of justice in the case of a pioneer of autism research. Although the health issues involved are the most troubling, we show how the truth can be uncovered, as always, by heeding that old adage: “Follow the money.” Flu Vaccines Causing Deaths Worldwide Meanwhile, in western Australia, more than sixty children had “adverse reactions”—fever, vomiting, and convulsions—to a three-strain flu vaccine within hours of being immunized, according to the Brisbane Courier-Mail. The vaccine manufacturer has voluntarily withdrawn the vaccine and is trying to retrieve it wherever it has been distributed. In Taiwan, seventeen children have died after being given the H1N1 vaccine. The Minister of Health said six of the deaths can be attributed to other causes such as myocardial rupture, suffocation due to inhalation of vomit, or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, though he did not say what had caused those conditions. Investigations continue into the remaining eleven cases. It was revealed that vaccine had not been tested on humans prior to being administered in Taiwan, but that vaccinations will continue in order “to avoid wasting the vaccine.” The deputy director of the Taiwan CDC noted that, “If parents insist, doctors will be asked to explain the possible health risks.” Mercury Rising CoMeD Inc., a non-profit group hoping to ban the use of mercury in all medications, filed declarations in US District court about pregnant women and their unborn fetuses who have been harmed by influenza shots that contain Thimerosal (mercury). The declarations filed detailed fetal deaths, miscarriages, stillbirths, premature births, and mental retardation or gross mental impairment of live births following the administration of swine flu and regular flu shots that contained mercury. As Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, one of the country’s most knowledgeable and outspoken physicians regarding the impact of vaccines on health, writes: “The doctors who are forcing these vaccines on pregnant women do not understand what they are giving or doing. We have heard story after story of people challenging their physicians over whether Thimerosal is present in vaccines. When the doctor finally takes the time to read the package insert, they are shocked to see that it is. While most of the mercury has been taken out of most of the childhood vaccines, it has not been taken out of the multi-dose flu vaccines. Each swine flu shot has 25 mcg of mercury.” In light of this, it is all the more interesting that a respected Japanese study recently concluded that vitamin D was as effective as vaccine in preventing flu, including pandemic flu. And of course it is also effective as a treatment. The complete silence of the US government about the use of this simple, cheap, unpatented substance against flu is truly shameful. If vitamin D were a patented drug sold by a drug company, is there any doubt the government would be promoting and stockpiling it? This is one example of crony capitalism in medicine but not unfortunately the most blatant. For that, see Blatant Crony Capitalism in Medicine Dr. Julie Gerberding was director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for the past seven years. Essentially, she was in charge of federal government decision-making about vaccines and disease-response programs. In January, she resigned to become president of Merck Pharmaceuticals’ vaccine division. Merck, as Pulse readers know, makes the Gardasil vaccine, which is marketed as a cervical cancer vaccine even though it’s really a vaccine for genital warts—the human papillomavirus (HPV). There are as many as forty different HPVs, only four of which can cause some types of cancer in some women. Gardasil’s own small-print disclaimers say the vaccine doesn’t protect everyone; it doesn’t protect against diseases caused by other HPV types; it doesn’t prevent all types of cervical cancer; and it doesn’t treat cancer or genital warts once you have them. Yet Merck is marketing it as the great new cervical cancer preventive. You can’t take it if you’re prone to yeast infections or are pregnant, and the acknowledged side effects include pain, swelling, itching, bruising, and redness at the injection site, headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, vomiting, and fainting with seizures or rigidity! Unacknowledged possible side effects have included a teenage girl’s death. A true miracle drug. Merck’s announcement said, “Dr. Gerberding is the ideal choice to lead Merck’s engagement with organizations around the world that share our commitment to the use of vaccines to prevent disease.” This is crony capitalism at its most blatant. By the way, in 2008, Dr. Gerberding went on CNN’s House Call with Dr. Sanjay Gupta and admitted that vaccines can trigger autism. It was buried in a pile of obfuscation, but the admission was there nonetheless. This in turn makes the next story all the more interesting. “A Clear Miscarriage of Justice” In March, a federal administrative law judge ruled that the evidence supporting an alleged causal link between autism and a mercury-containing preservative in vaccines was “unpersuasive,” and that the families of children diagnosed with autism were not entitled to compensation. The Coalition for Vaccine Safety called it “a clear miscarriage of justice.” These families, representative of than 5,300 cases of parents who believe vaccines caused their child’s autism, sought compensation but above all an acknowledgment of wrong from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, a no-fault system set up to shield pharmaceutical firms making vaccines from financial liability and thus to encourage them to make more vaccines. Now, in another miscarriage of justice, Andrew Wakefield, MD—the British doctor whose research and public statements initially linked a common childhood vaccine to autism—had his license to practice medicine revoked two weeks ago. The British General Medical Council alleged in part that he had conducted invasive medical procedures on children that they did not need. Significantly, no parent or child has ever alleged that they were harmed by Dr Wakefield. Prior to this controversy, Wakefield was a gastroenterologist and respected researcher. In 1995, he was approached for help by a mother whose child developed a painful inflammatory bowel disorder following a routine MMR vaccine (for measles, mumps, and rubella). The child also became autistic. His research team found nearly 100 children with the same symptoms and the same chain of events, a syndrome now identified in five countries As part of his investigation, Dr. Wakefield found the safety studies on the MMR vaccine “totally unsatisfactory,” and put together a 250-page report on these safety studies. The manufacturer of the MMR vaccine, GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), saw its sales drop sharply after the report. One of the members of GSK’s board of directors owns the Sunday Times newspaper. That paper wrote a series of articles critical of Dr. Wakefield, which prompted the UK’s General Medical Council to investigate. This was the beginning of what ANH–Europe called, in its excellent analysis of the incident, “the longest witch hunt in UK medical history.” As Dr. Sherri Tenpenny notes, “The autism rate, now at least 1 in 150, is more than the childhood rate of pediatric cancer, HIV, and diabetes combined. And yet we deny the connection to vaccines and even deny there is an autism epidemic, with many thousands of children losing their brains. It is more important to be sure we don’t have a few cases of mumps or the flu than it is to question the holy water coming through that needle, a solution that contains known carcinogens, animal DNA, and heavy metals.” Dr. Wakefield recently published a book on his experience, Callous Disregard: Autism and Vaccines—The Truth Behind a Tragedy.: https://www.amazon.com/Callous-Disre.../dp/1616081694

Some other related links:
https://www.anh-usa.org/have-we-aban...ren-to-toxins/

https://www.anh-usa.org/toxic-metals/

https://www.anh-usa.org/swine-flu-se...act-from-hype/

https://www.anh-usa.org/%E2%80%9Cvac...manufacturers/

https://www.anh-usa.org/the-ama-seek...accine-safety/

https://www.anh-usa.org/genetics-env...l-soup-autism/

[HolisticKids]

Key information missing from this article:

1) How many of the 910 confirmed cases statewide were in fully vaccinated people? Fully vaccinated kids DO get pertussis. One reason is that the acellular vaccine currently used contains only three to five antigens and pertussis is mutating into many different antigens. The pertussis vaccine is one of the least effective vaccines available.

2) How many of the cases in Sonoma County are in the west county, Waldorf-oriented unvaccinated communities? This article (and several of you here) seem very quick to be blaming it on this community - the parents who have done their research and made an informed decision to not vaccinate their kids while living a healthy lifestyle that builds and optimizes natural immunity. How many people are getting sick in these communities? Does anyone know?

Or is it the unhealthy adults that are eating junk, not taking care of themselves, and have weakened immunity that are picking up pertussis and spreading it around?

It's been my experience that the kids who have been breastfed long-term, given a healthy diet and healthy lifestyle have solid natural immunity that keeps them healthy. They are not contributing to disease. If anything, they are contributing to "herd immunity" which originated a long time ago from cows having NATURAL immunity, not vaccined-induced antibodies.

When my unvaccinated daughter was little, she was fully exposed to a vaccinated child with an unconfirmed case of pertussis - played with him all day and I found out later he was diagnosed with pertussis. She never got the disease. She was also exposed to chicken pox 5 times and never got the disease. She never had influenza until a mild case last year at age 15. I doubt very much she was ever a risk to society.

Jane

[Sebastopol Kim]

This is a difficult conversation, but one that needs to happen. Those of us who serve kids in schools have a big stake in vaccination, too.

[podfish]

for those who seem to trust anecdotal evidence better - here's a site that's not really rigorous, but maybe more convincing to those who distrust "experts" because of that:

What's The Harm?

This really is another argument in the family of global warming and evolution. Reduce them to the simplest terms: is climate change impacted by human activity? do species arise by evolution from earlier forms? does vaccination improve the health of the general population? and I think in all of them you'll find that the "experts" overwhelmingly agree. Of course there are many counter-arguments and there's no similar agreement on mechanisms and details. Reasonably well educated people can easily understand some of the objections to these premises - but I don't think that makes the amateurs' opinions equally valid. You may find that one of the outlier's arguments appeal to you or that the anecdotes resonate strongly with you - or that your personal experience seems to support your resistance to accepting these ideas. There are even great historical examples of cases where the iconoclast was right after all. But that's not where the smart money is bet. It doesn't much matter whether evolution is disproved in the end - but the other two issues have direct impact on everyone's lives, and betting otherwise makes for a lot of losers.

[someguy]

The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.

Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News

-Jeff

So you actually believe in herd immunity? I'm sorry, but herd immunity applying to vaccines is one of the silliest concepts I've ever heard of. Either vaccines provide protection, or they do not. If vaccines do in fact give your body immunity against a particular illness, would you care to explain the mechanism by which another persons lack of immunization could render your vaccine ineffective?

[Zeno Swijtink]

So you actually believe in herd immunity? I'm sorry, but herd immunity applying to vaccines is one of the silliest concepts I've ever heard of. Either vaccines provide protection, or they do not. If vaccines do in fact give your body immunity against a particular illness, would you care to explain the mechanism by which another persons lack of immunization could render your vaccine ineffective?

I think you misunderstand this concept of "herd immunity."

"Herd immunity" is the degree of non-exposure of a person that derives from others (in their "herd") being immune.

If you are the last one in your herd considering vaccination, egocentric self-interest tells you not to vaccinate, since your "herd immunity" is so large that it does not pay to take on the risk of the act and process of the vaccination itself.

This conflict between the public and the private interest in vaccination was understood from the very beginning.

Daniel Bernoulli pointed this out in his Essai d'une nouvelle analyse de la mortalité causée par la petite vérole et les avantages de l'inoculation pour la prévenir.; (Essay on a new analysis of the mortality caused by the smallpox and on the advantages of inoculation for its prevention.) Histoires et Mémoires de l'Académie Royale des Sciences de Paris, pp. 1 - 45 in the year 1766.

The local health officials quoted in the PD article were uninformed, and so was Braggi in his murder accusation. For this particular infectious disease, parents who do not have their children inoculated have on average little effect on other parents' babies dying from this disease since the bacteria causing this disease is mostly carried by the adult population.

As an aside, being breast-fed lowers the risk of catching pertussis or being affected by it if you get it (but not at the same level of vaccination).

In fact in the USA there is no herd immunity for the inoculated against whooping cough, since almost all adults here are not immune to it: if they got vaccinated in early childhood that protection is not life-long and has worn off in their early teens, and few adults are re-vaccinated (e.g. Braggi was not).

Adults get whooping cough but are nor severely affected by it, nor does successful battling the disease confer lifetime immunity, but whooping cough is not prevalent enough here to maintain a natural immunity level among the adult population.

In Germany they now give booster shots to adolescence and adults to give infants below the age of 6 months more herd immunity.

Vaccine. 2008 Jul 4;26(29-30):3673-9. Epub 2008 May 19.
Cost-effectiveness of adult pertussis vaccination in Germany.
Lee GM, Riffelmann M, Wirsing von Konig CH.

Department of Ambulatory Care and Prevention, Harvard Medical School and Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, Boston, MO 02215, United States.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: The incidence of pertussis in adults is high despite good childhood vaccination coverage. An adult formulation of an acellular pertussis vaccine is licensed and available for use in Germany. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the potential health benefits, risks, costs and cost-effectiveness of routine pertussis vaccination programs for German adults. METHODS: A Markov model was used to simulate health states and immunity levels associated with pertussis disease and vaccination. The following strategies were evaluated: (1) no adult pertussis vaccination, (2) one-time adult vaccination at 20-64 years, and (3) adult vaccination with decennial boosters. Our main outcome measures were costs (2006 Euros), cases prevented, incremental cost per case prevented and incremental cost per quality-adjusted life year (QALY) saved. We performed sensitivity analyses for key assumptions in the model including disease incidence, vaccine cost, vaccine efficacy, disease costs and frequency of adverse events. Future costs and benefits were discounted at 3%. RESULTS: At a disease incidence of 165 per 100,000, the one-time adult vaccination strategy would prevent 498,000 cases, and the decennial adult vaccination strategy would prevent 1 million cases. Approximately 31 million adults ( approximately 62% of the cohort) would be vaccinated with a one-time adult vaccination strategy for a total program cost of 366 million Euros, while a decennial vaccination strategy would cost 687 million Euros. The one-time adult vaccination strategy resulted in CE ratios of 5800 Euros per QALY saved, or 160 Euros per pertussis case prevented. The decennial booster strategy cost 7200 Euros per QALY saved, or 200 Euros per case prevented. The results were most sensitive to assumptions about disease incidence and vaccine cost. CONCLUSIONS: Routine vaccination of German adults aged 20-64 years with Tdap is cost-effective.

This could explain the periodic and random reoccurrence of whooping cough in the US, and the death of very young infants that would not have been able to derive an immunity through vaccination. This has nothing to do with an absence of "herd immunity," and does not make parents who do not vaccinate into murderers of other people's children (only of their own children).

Further readings:

Vaccine and infection confer immunity for 10 years.....the loss of natural "booster" shots from further exposure cause rebound - from NY Times, https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/22/health/22cough.html

New strains becoming immune to vaccine (from New Scientist): Short Sharp Science: Why whooping cough's making a comeback

[Barry]

I think you misunderstand this concept of "herd immunity."

"Herd immunity" is the degree of non-exposure of a person that derives from others (in their "herd") being immune.

Mere "gratitude" is not enough! Thank you for shedding some light...

[someguy]

I think you misunderstand this concept of "herd immunity."

"Herd immunity" is the degree of non-exposure of a person that derives from others (in their "herd") being immune.

Thank you for pointing out this distinction.

At any rate, it is outrageous for Braggi to call people murderers for making a personal choice about their children's health.

The concept of herd immunity originally came from natural immunity, which lasts a lifetime. No booster shots needed, no mercury, and its free. A healthy child with proper nutrition and lifestyle (not very many of those these days, unfortunately) will have a strong immune system and be able to safely acquire natural immunity.

Incidentally, here is a study that says that the flu shot only reduces the incidence of influenza by 35% in people over 65: ScienceDirect - Vaccine : A meta-analysis of effectiveness of influenza vaccine in persons aged 65 years and over living in the community

Personally, I'd rather go the natural route. Its not worth it to inject yourself with mercury every year just so you can have 35% less flu. If I was over 65, I would be working on correcting any nutritional deficiencies and strengthening my immune system instead.

The tetanus vaccine is perhaps an exception, because tetanus is not a childhood illness (its actually a poisoning) and has a high fatality rate. Tetanus does occur sometimes in people who are fully vaccinated, but the likelihood of death if you get tetanus is inversely related to the number of vaccinations you have had in your lifetime: https://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/9665156 (you might have to sign up to see this one. its free) Of course, proper wound care is critical as well.

[podfish]

hyperbolic, maybe, but not outrageous. And your logic countering that makes no sense. There's no magic in the phrases "personal choice" and "their children" - they may be hot buttons, 'cuz who wants to deprive people of their ability to make personal choices? and of course if it's about children...!! But those phrases are distractions, and show up way too often in discussions about broader policies. If someone's "personal choice" leads to the unnecessary deaths of others, even if it was made to protect "their children", then it sounds like murder to me. OK, maybe negligent homicide. What if the personal choice was to landmine the area around their children's backyard playground to keep potential kidnappers away?
In a society that accepts as many restrictions on personal freedom as ours does in the name of safety and public health, rejection of vaccination is a hostile act. Personally I don't particularly support what I find as an extreme push toward public safety - I don't really like speed limits on the highway, for example, and .08 is too low for an alcohol limit, and I don't see why you can't shoot varmints on your own property, and....

.....
At any rate, it is outrageous for Braggi to call people murderers for making a personal choice about their children's health.....

[Braggi]

.... At any rate, it is outrageous for Braggi to call people murderers for making a personal choice about their children's health. ...

Good. I was hoping to spark some outrage. If we're nit picking here, I didn't call anyone a murderer, but if you make an informed choice (I know, bad information isn't really information, but that aside) and your child or your neighbor's child dies as a result, it's pre-meditated something. You pick the word.

You are right that it's a "personal" choice, but it's also a community choice. You are choosing to weaken the immunity of the community. If one here and there do it, no big deal. If 30% or more choose that route, you've broken the herd immunity. At that point it's not just a personal choice.

One more point: your child didn't get to make the choice. If he catches a preventable illness do to YOUR personal choice and dies ... well, once again, you choose the word.

.... The concept of herd immunity originally came from natural immunity, which lasts a lifetime. No booster shots needed, no mercury, and its free. A healthy child with proper nutrition and lifestyle (not very many of those these days, unfortunately) will have a strong immune system and be able to safely acquire natural immunity.
...

I'll give one example to demonstrate how short sighted this point of view is: tens of millions of native indians died after the early European invasions of the Americas. Had they been inoculated against childhood diseases, that wouldn't have happened. That only happens with individuals nowadays, but leave out widespread vaccination programs and you'll begin to see thousands and tens of thousands dying needlessly every year.

.... Personally, I'd rather go the natural route. Its not worth it to inject yourself with mercury every year just so you can have 35% less flu. If I was over 65, I would be working on correcting any nutritional deficiencies and strengthening my immune system instead. ...

I've never had a flu shot myself. However, if a virulent flu strain was threatening my community, I'd be first in line. I wasn't convinced H1N1 was a big threat, but I was still prepared to hop on getting the vaccine if it showed up locally.

For your information, in the 1918 flu, it was the people with the healthiest immune systems that died most regularly. It was actually the immune response that caused the lungs to fill with fluid and then they died. Infants and unhealthy drunks rarely died though they did become ill. It was healthy young adults that died.

BTW, get over the mercury thing. There is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in a vaccine. Don't give me a list of links from crackpot websites because I won't read them. I've done it before and they're all bogus. It's all crap by people selling their nonsense books. Get over it. Thimerosal is safe, effective and cheap. There is a reason they use it. BTW, it's not found in childhood vaccines, so don't tell me about putting mercury in kids. That's not happening even though it's been found safe.

.... The tetanus vaccine is perhaps an exception, because tetanus is not a childhood illness (its actually a poisoning) and has a high fatality rate. ...

I'll close with this: "One neonate, delivered in a hospital, developed generalized tetanus on the ninth day of life. The infant had an infected umbilical cord that had been treated with bentonite clay for cord care at home. TIG therapy was administered within 24 hours of the onset of tetanus, and the baby recovered after 19 days of hospitalization. The baby's U.S.-born mother had a philosophic objection to vaccination and had received no tetanus toxoid (22)." Tetanus Surveillance --- United States, 1998--2000

Impressively, the child recovered. Had the mother gotten a tetanus shot there is some chance the child never would have gotten tetanus. Sounds like a hard way to begin life.

Get over your unreasonable fears and get vaccinated. It's a choice that makes sense.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Key information missing from this article:

1) How many of the 910 confirmed cases statewide were in fully vaccinated people? ...
2) How many of the cases in Sonoma County are in the west county, Waldorf-oriented unvaccinated communities? ...

... It's been my experience that the kids who have been breastfed long-term, given a healthy diet and healthy lifestyle have solid natural immunity that keeps them healthy. They are not contributing to disease. If anything, they are contributing to "herd immunity" which originated a long time ago from cows having NATURAL immunity, not vaccined-induced antibodies.

When my unvaccinated daughter was little ...

You're asking some good questions here. First, your daughter's experience doesn't matter much to the community. Fact is, she could have been a carrier of any number of illnesses and you never would have known. In any case, it's an anecdote, and we all know the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

I'm a big time promoter of breast feeding and natural support of health. I'm also a big promoter of vaccination because I've read the studies and I know they are safe and they work. The arguments against vaccines are almost exclusively made by ignorant fools or by educated people selling their particular book or snake oil. I think these people are murderers. No holding back on that one. Mass murderers. Killing innocents to make a buck. They are really the reason I'm posting here.

As far as who these people are who are getting sick and dying, all the recent fatalities are hispanic infants, as far as I've seen in print. It's common in our hispanic immigrant communities to avoid breast feeding. It's also common for immigrants to come to this country having had incomplete vaccinations or none at all, so there you have it. I would like to know how many infections were reported from the anti-vax communities in Sonoma and Marin counties. I'm with you on that. It would be valuable information.

But the fact is that we live in an era of globalization and immigrants and travelers will be bringing illnesses to the US that have all but disappeared due to the success of immunization programs. The best response is to vaccinate our children. All the science says so. None of the science argues against it.

Vaccines are safe and effective. Do it.

-Jeff

[Bella Luna]

Just to chime in here with some info. My daughter currently has whooping cough. She was immunized as a baby, but did not get the recommended booster between 11-13. She is 12. My 14 year old does not have whooping cough and has been exposed to her sister. Same situation-she was immunized as a baby, but did not receive the booster. There is no rhyme or reason why one would have and the other does not. In fact, one would think that my 14 year old would be more susceptible to it because she had brain surgery in January and it has been longer since she was immunized. No signs of any cough with her though.

My friend who is a teacher in a very wealthy neighborhood of Tiburon had 16 children out of school recently with whooping cough-they ALL had been immunized. This disease is spreading whether people have been immunized or not.

[Braggi]

... In fact in the USA there is no herd immunity for the inoculated against whooping cough, since almost all adults here are not immune to it: if they got vaccinated in early childhood that protection is not life-long and has worn off in their early teens, and few adults are re-vaccinated (e.g. Braggi was not). ...

Curious how you know this about me, Zeno. The fact is, I've been vaccinated twice in the last ten years for tetanus. I'm not sure if pertussis was included in the shots I got, but several articles I've read suggest they are typically packaged together, so there is some chance I got pertussis as well. I don't know and neither do you.

-Jeff

PS. I like catching you once in a while. You're typically very hard to argue with. I appreciate your contributions here.

[Clancy]

I have whooping cough and I got a whooping cough/tetinus vaccine one year ago. At first I thought it was allergies, but there's no mistaking this cough.

Just to chime in here with some info. My daughter currently has whooping cough. She was immunized as a baby, but did not get the recommended booster between 11-13. She is 12. My 14 year old does not have whooping cough and has been exposed to her sister. Same situation-she was immunized as a baby, but did not receive the booster. There is no rhyme or reason why one would have and the other does not. In fact, one would think that my 14 year old would be more susceptible to it because she had brain surgery in January and it has been longer since she was immunized. No signs of any cough with her though.

My friend who is a teacher in a very wealthy neighborhood of Tiburon had 16 children out of school recently with whooping cough-they ALL had been immunized. This disease is spreading whether people have been immunized or not.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Fair enough.

Curious how you know this about me, Zeno. The fact is, I've been vaccinated twice in the last ten years for tetanus. I'm not sure if pertussis was included in the shots I got, but several articles I've read suggest they are typically packaged together, so there is some chance I got pertussis as well. I don't know and neither do you.

-Jeff

PS. I like catching you once in a while. You're typically very hard to argue with. I appreciate your contributions here.

[Deb]

Here is another crazy thing to consider.
If you are an adult, with whooping cough, it may not have the whoop. at the beginning stages there is nothing discerning.
I have a cough. It started as allergies two weeks ago. I called Urgent Care to see if I could get a culture to confirm one way or another. They said they aren't doing cultures for every cough that walks in the door.
I say THIS is crazy.
What about the people who are walking around undiagnosed and UNTREATED?? Ya think THAT has anything to do with the "epidemic"?

[Peace Voyager]

Jeff,

One person's "science" is another person's "snake oil". Unless you know who paid for the "science", and under what terms and conditions they did their work, you will never know just how valid it is.

The fact you are convinced that a known poison like mercury is safe to be ingested, convinces me you lack good judgement; and thus not a source to trust for unbiased analysis.

The negative energy around many of your comments, and your perceptions of folks who choose differently as "murderers", must be rather hard to live with.

May peace be with you.

[someguy]

BTW, get over the mercury thing. There is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in a vaccine. Don't give me a list of links from crackpot websites because I won't read them. I've done it before and they're all bogus. It's all crap by people selling their nonsense books. Get over it. Thimerosal is safe, effective and cheap. There is a reason they use it. BTW, it's not found in childhood vaccines, so don't tell me about putting mercury in kids. That's not happening even though it's been found safe.

I'll close with this: "One neonate, delivered in a hospital, developed generalized tetanus on the ninth day of life. The infant had an infected umbilical cord that had been treated with bentonite clay for cord care at home. TIG therapy was administered within 24 hours of the onset of tetanus, and the baby recovered after 19 days of hospitalization. The baby's U.S.-born mother had a philosophic objection to vaccination and had received no tetanus toxoid (22)." Tetanus Surveillance --- United States, 1998--2000

Impressively, the child recovered. Had the mother gotten a tetanus shot there is some chance the child never would have gotten tetanus. Sounds like a hard way to begin life.

Get over your unreasonable fears and get vaccinated. It's a choice that makes sense.

-Jeff

Jeff,

I'd like to direct you to my other thread on this subject, https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...tml#post116993. In my post to Miles, I have listed a number of studies showing harm from thimerosal and other forms of organic mercury. Your claim that there is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in vaccines is incorrect.

Rest assured, these are not crackpot websites but rather studies published in scientific journals. I wouldn't waste your time.

Your other claim that there is no mercury in vaccines for children is also incorrect. The multi-dose version of Fluzone contains thimerosal. For some strange reason, it also appears to contain the H1N1 virus. According to their website, it is recommended for children aged 6 to 36 months, and also for 3-8 year-olds.

Fluzone®, Vaccination Recommendation for Influenza Immunization

Also, you must have missed my previous comment about the tetanus vaccine. I consider it to be an exception. There is absolutely no benefit to be had from contracting tetanus, because it is a poisoning and not a contagious disease. It appears that people who are fully vaccinated against tetanus can still contract it, but their likelihood of dying from it is greatly diminished. So I would definitely consider vaccinating my children against tetanus.

[Peace Voyager]

For the record, I allowed my children to be vaccinated with the minimum standard ones; no chicken pox, and especially no HPV (the maker of Guardicil later had bad results with that one).

What I did differently was to wait until the kids were a bit older, and to only have one vaccine at time, except MMR. I chose a supposedly safer form of Polio, (can't remember if it was the live or dead form).

This was more effort, but worth it for me to be a bit more comfortable.

Also, for my son, I took him to a natural medicine guy - David Field in Santa Rosa after the shots. He gave him a homeopathic (SP?) remedy for the vaccine. My son was his youngest patient for accupuncture at that time as well. David's office may still be in Doctor's Park on Sonoma Ave.

I have no fear or problem with those who are not vaccinated.

On another note, I do have a problem with folks having sex without knowing for sure if their partner has had complete, recent STD testing FIRST.

That can be riskier than not having a vaccine.