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  1. TopTop #1
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    By CATHY BUSSEWITZ, Associated Press Writer Cathy Bussewitz, Associated Press Writer
    Wed Mar 24, 9:29 pm ET

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. – California voters will decide whether to legalize recreational marijuana use for adults, after the secretary of state on Wednesday certified the initiative for the November ballot.

    It would become the first state to legalize recreational marijuana use if the proposition is approved. Marijuana use is legal for medicinal purposes in California and 14 other states, but the drug is illegal under federal law.

    Secretary of State Debra Bowen certified that the petitions seeking to place the question on the ballot had more than 433,971 valid voter signatures, the minimum number needed to qualify.

    If approved, the initiative would allow those 21 years and older to possess up to one ounce of marijuana, enough to roll several marijuana cigarettes. Residents also could cultivate the plant in limited quantities.

    The proposal would ban users from ingesting marijuana in public or smoking it while minors are present. It also would make it illegal to possess the drug on school grounds or drive while under its influence.

    Local governments would decide whether to permit and tax marijuana sales.

    "The tide has turned," said Dan Newman, a strategist with the campaign backing the measure. "The combination of the broken budget and dysfunctional cannabis laws have created the perfect storm for this initiative to pass in November."

    Opponents refer to marijuana as a gateway drug, meaning its use is believed to lead young people to try other, harder drugs. They worry that legalization would persuade more people to try it, worsening the nation's drug culture.

    "How can our kids say no when the adults around them are saying yes?" asked Aimee Hendle, a spokeswoman for Californians for Drug Free Youth.

    Proponents of the measure say legalizing marijuana could save the state $200 million a year by reducing public safety costs and could generate tax revenue for local governments.

    Stephen Gutwillig, California director for the Drug Policy Alliance, said certification of the ballot initiative marks a watershed moment in the decades-long struggle.

    "Banning marijuana outright has been a profound disaster, fueling a massive, increasingly brutal underground economy, wasting billions in scarce law enforcement resources and making criminals of countless law-abiding citizens," he said.

    The initiative is the second proposal to qualify for the November 2010 ballot. The other is a $11.1 billion water bond measure that was pushed by state lawmakers.
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  2. TopTop #2
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    big whoop.
    As in the 20's the way to anesthetize one's self is made legal again and then TAXED!
    Great way for those that are addicted to money, AKA politicians, to 'get more' of their stuff. I heard that the pot club in town gets more taxes to the town coffers than the two auto dealers combined used to give. So of course they want to make it legal.
    And this is coupled to the 'no smoking anywhere' gang. What a country, eh?
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  3. TopTop #3
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    The "big whoop" is that there are a ton of guys, and gals, in prison for possession, and / or low level distribution, and the cost of keeping them there is busting the state budget.

    On top of that we have armed home invasions, pistol wippings, stabbing and shootings during transaction robberies in our local parks, pollution and habitat destruction in our state and national forests, etc.

    Legalization, and taxing the distribution, would be first steps to try and address these "externalities" of the business. Your flippant dismissal of the effort to end prohibition indicates that you don't seem to care about the issue at all.

    Hopefully California voters won't feel the same.

    Once pot is legal, the people who will suffer will be the Mexican cartels and other organized criminals who profit from the artificially inflated price for a plant that is quite easy to grow. Oh, and the cops who get paid for trying to suppress them, but mostly bust the small fry. And maybe the Medicine entrepreneurs who've been raking it in since the passage of Prop 215.

    Wait, with those forces arrayed against it, this initative is doomed!!!?

    Perhaps, LenInSebastopol, your dismissal is justified!?
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 03-26-2010 at 11:51 PM. Reason: you're ain't your
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  4. TopTop #4
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles: View Post
    The "big whoop" is that there are a ton of guys, and gals, in prison for possession, and / or low level distribution, and the cost of keeping them there is busting the state budget.
    Do you honestly ask us to believe that the State of California incarcerates folks that possess and/or have low level distribution? I know that is the narrative, but please don't ask us to buy that! You insult the intelligence.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles: View Post
    On top of that we have armed home invasions, pistol wippings, stabbing and shootings during transaction robberies in our local parks, pollution and habitat destruction in our state and national forests, etc.
    So it's the drugs that make them do that? And here I thought it was the money. So if there's no money in pot, then those guys will see the error of their angry, greedy and lazy ways and commit no crimes again? Or will it shift to some other type of "reason" that beatings, etc will occur?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles;109941[FONT=Garamond:
    Legalization, and taxing the distribution, would be first steps to try and address these "externalities" of the business. Your flippant dismissal of the effort to end prohibition indicates that you don't seem to care about the issue at all. [/font]
    You caught me; I don't care. It's an innocuous habit, mostly juvenile.
    The only reason, politically, is to get money for the gov't, which, for me, is a "bad thing". Giving politicians money, but not mine in this case, is like giving heroin to junkies. They misspend most of it and then only crave for more.
    A few things I don't understand, how will the regulators "distribute" for taxation purposes? If I can grow if for free and sell it to you, for example, so why would the gov't interfere with what grown adults do? I don't understand your term "externalities" but that's OK too.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles;109941[FONT=Garamond:
    Hopefully California voters won't feel the same.[/font] Once pot is legal, the people who will suffer will be the Mexican cartels and other organized criminals who profit from the artificially inflated price for a plant that is quite easy to grow. Oh, and the cops who get paid for trying to suppress them, but mostly bust the small fry. And maybe the Medicine entrepreneurs who've been raking it in since the passage of Prop 215.Wait, with those forces arrayed against it, this initiative is doomed!!!?
    Perhaps, LenInSebastopol, your dismissal is justified!?
    "Mad" Miles
    It's simply a large market demand that drives the volume from Mexico. The cartels will still be supplying everything illegal and whatever the market bears. If another market of that size can be developed, the supply will be there and we can start again. And as for the cops, we all wish they would go after real bad guys but then those growing bush out there are doing bad things to the innocents as well as each other, so you've made a good point there again.
    The demographics for passage are close to about right for the pot crowd so California could pass it thereby drawing every pot head in the country for another migration. We won't be drawing the best and the brightest with this one.
    But you make a good point. It is easy to grow, as it's a weed, literally. So will it become our state bud?
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  5. TopTop #5
    BancheroTreeService
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Just for the sake of playing devils advocate lets say Marijuana is legalized. What happens?

    First of all the price is going to drop. Profit is a function of risk...no risk=little profit.

    The amount being grown is going to increase as people will not be afraid to grow their own. This is going to have the effect of reducing demand, further lowering the price.

    So why should anyone care about all of that...because even if people don't want to admit it, the bulk of Marijuana grown in this state is grown by the equivalent of family farms. People with an extra room in their home, and that extra room brings in a significant income stream.

    I think legalizing marijuana is going to cause more foreclosures in this poor economy, by taking away a significant income stream. I think it is going to redirect the profits from individuals into the coffers of the big corporations that will take advantage of the new laws to get exemptions to grow fields of marijuana. As I understand it Philip-Morris has trademarked many commonly recognized names of cannabis strains.

    I think for counties like Mendocino, Humboldt, Trinity ect. Their economies are going to be in trouble as they can not go back to timber as their main industry.

    The question I always get when I make this argument is "Why should this one industry be exempt from taxes and regulation?" Because I think in general money created by growing pot tends to stay local and be invested locally. Why does Mendocino have nice new buildings for their schools? Because of parent involvement not because the state thought it worth while to make that investment.

    I think decriminalization is the way to go, not legalization.

    OK...let the flaming begin.
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  6. TopTop #6
    ItsaNewDawn
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Sorry to say Len, but gently , u dont know what u are saying. There ARE alot of people in jail for non violent acts. Its easy to find out. He wasnt attacking u, just adding to the knowledge from a different perspective.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by LenInSebastopol: View Post
    Do you honestly ask us to believe that the State of California incarcerates folks that possess and/or have low level distribution? I know that is the narrative, but please don't ask us to buy that! You insult the intelligence.
    Last edited by Barry; 03-27-2010 at 09:09 AM.
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  7. TopTop #7
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by BancheroTreeService: View Post
    I think decriminalization is the way to go, not legalization.
    I like what you wrote, including all the stuff deleted, as I found a good perspective with your take, but for the stupid among us, what's the difference between decriminalization and legalization?
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  8. TopTop #8
    BancheroTreeService
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    "what's the difference between decriminalization and legalization?"

    Shoot...now that I'm done with my rant I don't really know if I agree with my own statement. I think the distinction is that you may still be fined for possession but it doesn't carry the risk of jail.
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  9. TopTop #9

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by BancheroTreeService: View Post
    I think legalizing marijuana is going to cause more foreclosures in this poor economy, by taking away a significant income stream. I think it is going to redirect the profits from individuals into the coffers of the big corporations that will take advantage of the new laws to get exemptions to grow fields of marijuana. As I understand it Philip-Morris has trademarked many commonly recognized names of cannabis strains.

    I think for counties like Mendocino, Humboldt, Trinity ect. Their economies are going to be in trouble as they can not go back to timber as their main industry.


    I think decriminalization is the way to go, not legalization.
    Well the flip side to that coin is whats going on in Mexico right now. Terrible stuff I must say. And its mostly funded by illegal marijuana trafficking from Mexico. Not to mention that these Mexican cartels are forcing Mexican illegals to grow marijuana in our state and national forests. This is a big environmental problem and a human rights problem. Decriminalizing does nothing to drop the price of pot, as we can see right now it is still very profitable for the cartels to traffic this stuff up north. Legalization is our best chance to eradicate this disastrous situation.
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  10. TopTop #10
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Pretty good article in today's PD.

    Jeeze they should pay me for touting them so often!

    What's interesting about it are the forces arrayed, both for and against, on the issue.

    In searching for the above article I found this one, also from the AP, published Wednesday, covering the growers point of view.

    Some tangential issues:

    I've seen quite a few people advertising for garden space here on the board, to grow their "Medicine". Today someone advertised their trimmer skills. Someone just mentioned on the "Safeway Scanning Drivers Licenses" thread that the young today don't see privacy as an issue like us veterans of the sixties and seventies.

    Even if pot is legal, for medical use, in California, it's still illegal according to federal law. Perhaps its easy availability, general use and acceptance make people feel safe. But advertising in a public forum for places to grow and jobs to process it?

    Well, us veterans of a less tolerant time learned something that may be falling by the wayside. Situational security. Sometimes it gets oversubscribed to, like in the demonstration culture of the Left, where every new person is met with suspicion that they're a police agent. Especially if they don't fit the lifestyle requirements of the current groupthink.

    But, being safe and keeping your shit to yourself are important skills. Ones that perhaps us older freaks can offer to you shorties.

    In a nutshell, anything you put on the internet is public. Watch your back, and the backs of your sisters and brothers. If you don't want to be hung, don't give them the rope with which to do it.

    Also part of what made the drug scene cool back in the day (Of course I'm no longer part of that! It's been decades, all statutes of limitation apply, I swear!!!) was its clandestine nature. The rituals of keeping it on the down low were part of the fun! And those habits are good practice for the possibility of more troubled times ahead.

    As the Mystic Knights of OngYang say:

    "Those who know don't say, those who say don't know."

    'Zout,
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 03-26-2010 at 11:12 PM.
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  11. TopTop #11
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by someguy: View Post
    Well the flip side to that coin is whats going on in Mexico right now. Terrible stuff I must say. And its mostly funded by illegal marijuana trafficking from Mexico. Not to mention that these Mexican cartels are forcing Mexican illegals to grow marijuana in our state and national forests. This is a big environmental problem and a human rights problem. Decriminalizing does nothing to drop the price of pot, as we can see right now it is still very profitable for the cartels to traffic this stuff up north. Legalization is our best chance to eradicate this disastrous situation.
    Someguy,

    I'm very hesitant to correct you about anything. I certainly don't want to reinforce my image as a narcissist. Believe me, that image is enough for me alone!

    But, the drug slaughter in Mexico is about methamphetamine, cocaine and heroin. Marijuana plays an insignificant part in it. Yes, cartels send weed north via caches and mules. But that isn't from where the bulk of their profits derive.

    As for the Mexicans growing on our public lands, they're employees of the cartels, notoriously strict taskmasters (sic. & sick), but "coerced"? Not so much, they choose those roles, and the terror that comes with them.

    Surprisingly I agree with you on pretty much everything else you state in your post that I quoted above.
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  12. TopTop #12
    Dynamique
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Thanks for the thoughtful post.

    You're probably right about the price of pot going down. If the crime infrastructure around pot correspondingly goes down and then goes away because everyone can grow their own and there's no need for the ol' dope peddler, then it's worth it. The savings to the public and the lives not ruined by possession and cultivation charges is an acceptable trade-off.

    There's also a good chance that legalization (or decriminalization) would be a disincentive to growing dope on our public park and forest lands and making a big toxic mess that the taxpayers end up paying to clean up, as usual. Again, a worthy benefit.

    Hopefully there will be new opportunity for the family farmers that will result from legalizing cannabis: legalizing the cultivation of HEMP! It's perfect for family farms, low-grade ag lands, and places like Humbolt County.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by BancheroTreeService: View Post
    Just for the sake of playing devils advocate lets say Marijuana is legalized. What happens?

    First of all the price is going to drop. Profit is a function of risk...no risk=little profit.

    The amount being grown is going to increase as people will not be afraid to grow their own. This is going to have the effect of reducing demand, further lowering the price.
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  13. TopTop #13
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by BancheroTreeService: View Post
    "what's the difference between decriminalization and legalization?"

    Shoot...now that I'm done with my rant I don't really know if I agree with my own statement. I think the distinction is that you may still be fined for possession but it doesn't carry the risk of jail.
    Cool.
    I'm glad I'm not alone; I often don't agree with my own stuff as well! And I enjoy it too! Don't want to get well, just better.
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  14. TopTop #14
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by BancheroTreeService: View Post
    "what's the difference between decriminalization and legalization?"

    Shoot...now that I'm done with my rant I don't really know if I agree with my own statement. I think the distinction is that you may still be fined for possession but it doesn't carry the risk of jail.
    LOL! Decriminalization means that's its still illegal but you won't get in trouble for it (or possibly just a citation - like a parking ticket). It was a worthy first step for society to explore a more tolerant attitude. However it has lots of drawbacks.

    You can't regulate it or tax it, and in encourages violence since 1) the price is inflated because of the risk, 2) the government won't help you protect you so you have to protect yourself.
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  15. TopTop #15

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles: View Post
    Someguy,

    I'm very hesitant to correct you about anything. I certainly don't want to reinforce my image as a narcissist. Believe me, that image is enough for me alone!

    But, the drug slaughter in Mexico is about methamphetamine, cocaine and heroin. Marijuana plays an insignificant part in it. Yes, cartels send weed north via caches and mules. But that isn't from where the bulk of their profits derive.

    As for the Mexicans growing on our public lands, they're employees of the cartels, notoriously strict taskmasters (sic. & sick), but "coerced"? Not so much, they choose those roles, and the terror that comes with them.

    Surprisingly I agree with you on pretty much everything else you state in your post that I quoted above.
    Ive compiled a few articles for you to read about marijuana being the best drug the mexican cartels have. It is reliable, cheap to produce, and the market is massive. Check them out: Are US Pot Laws the Root Cause of Mexican Drug Violence? | Cannabis Culture Magazine

    Mexican Cartels Growing More Marijuana in U.S.

    Stem the violence, make marijuana legal

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/us/02pot.html?_r=1

    Mexico bristles as legalized marijuana heads for November ballot

    And here are some articles that I can find that back my claim that Mexican pot growers here in the US are coerced into their plight. ALIPAC - Mexican marijuana growers boldly operate in California

    LiveLeak.com - Mexican Drug Cartels Grow Marijuana In California Mountains

    BTW you have every right to correct me if I am mistaken. That does not make you in any way a narcissist. I don;t quite understand where your coming from with that kind of thought process.

    And I can;t believe your so surprised that I would say something that you agree with. Maybe you haven't noticed my custom 420 user title. Or maybe you haven't noticed that I actually agree with liberals on quite a lot of things, such as gay marriage, reproductive rights, civil liberties, foreign policy (well, when liberals were against war that is) and protecting the environment.

    Anyways bro, check out my links please and you'll find that marijuana's illegal status heavily fans the flames of violence in Mexico and for that reason alone we should legalize it.
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  16. TopTop #16
    BancheroTreeService
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Man I wish I was still in business school. This would be a great term paper and another trip to talk to the dean. I do miss walking into his office as a trouble maker.

    "Hopefully there will be new opportunity for the family farmers that will result from legalizing cannabis: legalizing the cultivation of HEMP! It's perfect for family farms, low-grade ag lands, and places like Humbolt County."

    That's a great question...if Marijuana were legal would it be like corn or would it be like wine? If buyers demand increasing quality to offset the flood on the market we could see cottage industries, development of local strains and strains for specific purposes.

    If it takes the government subsidized track like tobacco or corn we could see Monsanto bringing in genetically modified bud and decreasing quality with higher yields...no pun intended.

    Oh...I just need to say that I am not myself a grower or a smoker anymore, but living in west county I know folks who do both.

    One last point...who thinks that this legislation would be going through in it's current form if the Marijuana industry had a lobbying group appropriately sized for a $50 billion a year industry?

    As an example, I think opiates are still illegal in this country because the CIA controls the fields in Afghanistan and it's illegal trade/inflated price is how they fund their private wars. If opium/heroin were legal...they'd have no money.

    Is it overly cynical to think that Philip-Morris and Monsanto have more to do with Marijuana legalization than grass roots efforts? (Again no pun intended)
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  17. TopTop #17
    2Bwacco
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Possible scenario: 'spose MaryJane is legalized; will all the drug dealers then become model citizens?

    I think not; they enjoy lording misery over others in the pursuit of making lots of money. Those that stand in their way will die. That will never change; it's in their personality.

    To me, medical marijuana is a joke, it is only a smoke screen (no pun intended) for those who want to grow, make money, sit on their butts and do nothing while the money rolls in.

    Saw a post yesterday on craigslist. A gal, tender age of under 25, said she has been a "trimmer" all her life.

    Such a glorious title; she is actually proud of herself.
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  18. TopTop #18

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by 2Bwacco: View Post
    Possible scenario: 'spose MaryJane is legalized; will all the drug dealers then become model citizens?

    I think not; they enjoy lording misery over others in the pursuit of making lots of money. Those that stand in their way will die. That will never change; it's in their personality.
    It may be in their personality to kill and be terrible people (although personally I disagree), but if pot is legalized the price will drop immensely rendering illegal sales of marijuana to be a waste of time for these ex-dealers. They may never change, but they sure won't be selling pot to buy guns or to set up criminal enterprises.

    This is exactly why legalizing alcohol reduced violent crimes caused by mafia style bootleggers.

    A black market is a criminals market. Taking away that market forces those criminals out of business. And at the end of the day, its all about the money. And who should we give our money to? Drug dealers who kill and terrorize people, or business men/women who hire employees, and pay taxes?
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  19. TopTop #19
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by someguy: View Post
    Ive compiled a few articles for you to read about marijuana being the best drug the mexican cartels have. BTW you have every right to correct me if I am mistaken.
    .....
    That does not make you in any way a narcissist. I don;t quite understand where your coming from with that kind of thought process.
    .....
    And I can;t believe your so surprised that I would say something that you agree with. Maybe you haven't noticed my custom 420 user title. Or maybe you haven't noticed that I actually agree with liberals on quite a lot of things, ..... marijuana's illegal status heavily fans the flames of violence in Mexico and for that reason alone we should legalize it.
    Someguy,

    I'm responding in turn to the three excerpts above:

    I'll check out your links, when I can find the time. I base my claim that most of the money to be made in the illegal drug trade across our southern international border, by the Mexican cartels most recently, and Columbian and other South American cartels before them, is in "hard" drugs, on my reading of the news over the years. Yours is a minority view.


    Can't you tell when you're being teased? I find your accusation that I'm a narcissist, because I write about myself here on the board, to be hilarious. I will cop to too often starting many of my sentences with "I", first person is my favorite tense. I write about myself, as I explained in another thread yesterday, because it's what I know, it's convenient and easy, and I don't have to consult with anyone else about content and privacy issues.

    Most of what I write here is a first draft. If I had more time, and cared enough, I'd mix it up more. As it is I do about two to three edits before posting, and still errors slip through. I in no way believe that because it is what I think, that it has some superior claim to truth or authenticity. It's just my way of acknowledging my subject position, as the individual doing the perceiving and having the thoughts that I'm describing. Epistemology is a big field. No time to explore its nuances here. But keep looking for those chinks in my emotional armor, it keeps me on my toes!


    For the record, I'm a Leftist Radical, not a Liberal. The category of Leftist Radical is an extremely broad one. There are probably more fundamental differences within that camp, as there are between it, and others. Although a friend, for whom I have a great deal of respect, especially for his understanding of the American (U.S.) political sphere, once queried me on my core beliefs about social justice and related topics and pronounced me a Liberal. I suppose I find myself in league with liberals more often than conservatives, but I also have fundamental and irreconcilable differences with both camps. I've written a lot about this here. Especially back in 2004-5 on issues of the Green Party vs. the Democratic, Ralph Nader, etc..

    What I am not is someone who calls themselves a constitutionalist, an anti-monetarist, a fan of Ron Paul, or any of the other brands of neo-conservative libertarianism that I see you and a few others touting here. That is what I mean when I say it's rare that I agree with you.

    We identify some of the same problems: excessive governmental authority, big business domination of the political process, election fraud, to name but a few. But we identity different root causes, and advocate far different solutions. Those are pretty large areas of disagreement.

    Gotta Run,
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 03-27-2010 at 02:41 PM.
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  20. TopTop #20

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles: View Post
    [

    What I am not is someone who calls themselves a constitutionalist, an anti-monetarist, a fan of Ron Paul, or any of the other brands of neo-conservative libertarianism that I see you and a few others touting here. That is what I mean when I say it's rare that I agree with you.

    I fail to see how Ron Paul, or being any of the things you described fall into the neo-conservative category. George Bush Jr. is a neo-con. Lindsey Graham is a neo-con. Sarah Palin too. Ron Paul is just a conservative. Ron Paul runs as a republican because he actually believes in the true republican platform. And folks like Sarah, and George-boy are neo-cons because they don't represent real republicanism. Real republicans are the anti-war party. Real republicans are about fiscal conservatism. Real republicans are all about personal liberty. Unfortunately no-one ever thinks of these things when we hear the word republican anymore, since all they've been doing over these past few decades is to war monger and spend us into oblivion, all the while destroying civil liberties. So please don't be so hasty as to lump Ron Paul or even me into the neo-conservative category. And as a matter of fact, I don't always agree with Ron Paul. But I respect him so much because he is principled enough to support state's rights, such as marijuana policy.... In fact, Ron Paul is the only serious candidate that supports legalization of marijuana on a federal level. That goes for all drugs, and prostitution! You don't resonate with that Miles?

    I'm interested to hear what you have against the constitution and why you think that wanting to abolish money is a neo-conservative position. Most people think of socialism or even communism when they think of getting rid of money, so neo-conservatism is a new one for me to hear. Please elaborate.

    But please do check out those links I gave you in the prior post, and let me know what you think. I don't think my position is that of the minority.
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  21. TopTop #21
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    I'm kind of curious about 'getting rid of money' as well. That is the farthest out idea I've heard in a long time. What would serve as a medium of exchange? BTW, what IS money? so that one could "get rid" of it? And while you are at it, what is wealth? As a not to bright guy, can you point me towards reading material for dullards in discussing the above. TIA
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  22. TopTop #22
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    I'm having a bit of a moment in trying to understand the below. As you find nice people who wish to do good to others, why is it incredible to believe there are nasty people who will do 'the other thing'? And one of their quirks they share with others is the desire for money. Put the two together and you come up with all that jazz.
    I also don't believe the mafia went out of business when booze became legal. So those in the nefarious biz of making 'easy' money will continue to do so by developing other markets. I realize we are focused on the substance of pot, but don't throw the criminals out with the bath water. Or is that not the focus? I guess not! Ah, idyllic Sonoma where we have not a single bad guy! And none give a rip about a little grass.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by someguy: View Post
    It may be in their personality to kill and be terrible people (although personally I disagree), but if pot is legalized the price will drop immensely rendering illegal sales of marijuana to be a waste of time for these ex-dealers. They may never change, but they sure won't be selling pot to buy guns or to set up criminal enterprises. This is exactly why legalizing alcohol reduced violent crimes caused by mafia style bootleggers.
    A black market is a criminals market. Taking away that market forces those criminals out of business. And at the end of the day, its all about the money. And who should we give our money to? Drug dealers who kill and terrorize people, or business men/women who hire employees, and pay taxes?
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  23. TopTop #23

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by LenInSebastopol: View Post
    I'm kind of curious about 'getting rid of money' as well. That is the farthest out idea I've heard in a long time. What would serve as a medium of exchange? BTW, what IS money? so that one could "get rid" of it? And while you are at it, what is wealth? As a not to bright guy, can you point me towards reading material for dullards in discussing the above. TIA
    I don't want to go too deep into this, as it is off topic. Maybe I'll start a new thread that will dive into this concept further if you want me to, just let me know if your still interested. But heres a start for you Len: F.A.Q.

    This website might be able to answer most of your questions in the F.A.Q. category.
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  24. TopTop #24
    LenInSebastopol
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by someguy: View Post
    I don't want to go too deep into this, as it is off topic. Maybe I'll start a new thread that will dive into this concept further if you want me to, just let me know if your still interested. But heres a start for you Len: F.A.Q.
    This website might be able to answer most of your questions in the F.A.Q. category.
    Look, S.G., your a guy, I'm a guy, so we can talk smack and not get our underwear twisted. In the movie 12 Monkeys a whole world view was organized by a guy in an insane asylum. This is as close to it as it can come.I would not give enough time to read the Venus Project but it could happen there; and only there. Now folks make fun of my religion and one learns to live with it,.....this stuff is so far removed from about anything that comes close to this 3rd planet as is the East from the West. But if L. Ron can make a go it, more power to ya.
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  25. TopTop #25
    Dynamique
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Pardon me if I've missed something here...

    Is it your assertion that the pot legalization efforts are a plot or ruse -- or business move -- on the part of big tobacco and agribusiness corporations?

    There's a documentary called "The Union: the Business Behind Getting High" that is available on Netflix. It's a few years old but still pertinent. Check it out if you want some background info on the issue.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by BancheroTreeService: View Post
    Is it overly cynical to think that Philip-Morris and Monsanto have more to do with Marijuana legalization than grass roots efforts? (Again no pun intended)
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  26. TopTop #26
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by someguy: View Post
    Ive compiled a few articles for you to read about marijuana being the best drug the mexican cartels have. It is reliable, cheap to produce, and the market is massive.
    Anyways bro, check out my links please and you'll find that marijuana's illegal status heavily fans the flames of violence in Mexico and for that reason alone we should legalize it.
    I never said the Mexican Drug Cartels didn't grow, smuggle and deal pot. I said they made more money from hard drugs, by far, than from weed.

    I read your links, I'm generally not into watching videos online, and I caught the quote about Marijuana production and sales being 60% of the cartels profits and that pot "was King" for them from the anti-drug bureaucrat.

    Perhaps. But it's in their interest to overhype the dangers from pot. From my observation in the last thirty-five years, that's been their tendency.

    Here's the DEA Report / Overview from 2009, the latest on their website. They don't break down cartels profit by product, but if you read the sections about the Mexican cartels, and look at the overview charts on pp. 54-56, it's pretty clear they get a bigger bang for their buck/peso from Cocaine and Meth, than they do for pot.

    Anybody familiar with the profit margins on speed, smack and coke, vs. weed already knows this.

    I could probably write and ask some PR flack with them to confirm this, but I'll leave that up to someone else.

    As for how they treat their domestic employees, I've already acknowledged that they're brutal bosses. And in thinking about it I do recall stories of them coercing mojados into cultivating for them to pay off the debt they, the immigrants, incur with the coyotes, who are in league with the gangs.

    But your links also refer to hired employees, both Latino and non-Latino. So it's not as if every single grower at these "grows" is an enslaved peon facing torture and beheading if they don't stick it out.

    As long as the drug trade is illegal, violence will be associated with it. So, if legalizing pot helps reduce violence, all the better. At least in that regard we agree.

    I'm not interested in spending any more time on this subject.
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 03-28-2010 at 05:09 AM.
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  27. TopTop #27

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles: View Post
    Here's the DEA Report / Overview from 2009, the latest on their website. They don't break down cartels profit by product, but if you read the sections about the Mexican cartels, and look at the overview charts on pp. 54-56, it's pretty clear they get a bigger bang for their buck/peso from Cocaine and Meth, than they do for pot.
    If you'll look again at pages 54-56 (the pages you referred me to) you will see that the graphs are indicating drug THREAT as reported by state and local authorities, meaning that the drugs that rate high on these charts are more of a societal problem. These graphs don;t have anything to do with profit, or quantity.

    Even if these cartels make more money per unit of drug with hard drugs (which is undeniably true), the use is so low as compared to marijuana that it seems highly unlikely that the cartels make more money on selling hard drugs compared with marijuana.

    There is simply way more demand for marijuana than for all other drugs combined. There is a chart on page 70 which clearly demonstrates this point.

    All users of cocaine over the age of 12 in 2007 equals 11.9 percent of our population.

    All users of heroin over the age of 12 in 2007 equals .7 percent of our population.

    All users of meth over the age of 12 in 2007 equals 2.6 percent of our population.

    All users of marijuana over the age of 12 in 2007 equals 56.9 of our population.

    The market for marijuana is 5 times greater than the market for cocaine, and it is 50 times greater than the market for heroin. Yes, the societal threats of cocaine, heroin and meth are much more concerning as indicated by pages 54-56 of this report, but clearly this chart on page 70 shines light on the much larger marijuana market in the US. That is why marijuana provides the majority of the profit for the drug cartels. It is simple supply and demand economics 101.
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  28. TopTop #28
    BancheroTreeService
    Guest

    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dynamique: View Post
    Pardon me if I've missed something here...

    Is it your assertion that the pot legalization efforts are a plot or ruse -- or business move -- on the part of big tobacco and agribusiness corporations?

    There's a documentary called "The Union: the Business Behind Getting High" that is available on Netflix. It's a few years old but still pertinent. Check it out if you want some background info on the issue.
    Perhaps. You'll notice I hedged my statement a bit, but I do think that you can track the course of our governments actions by following the money. I'll check out the movie.
    Last edited by Barry; 03-28-2010 at 02:36 PM.
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