Last night the Sebastopol City Council voted unanimously to terminate the contract with Sonic for city wide Wi-Fi! Sebastopol leads the way for other cities to educate themselves and choose the precautionary principle!
Last night the Sebastopol City Council voted unanimously to terminate the contract with Sonic for city wide Wi-Fi! Sebastopol leads the way for other cities to educate themselves and choose the precautionary principle!
I think this is dumb...
but I don't live in Sebastopol.
I have discussed this with a few "experts of electricity".
As it is explained to me by Electronics Engineers in the last few days and minutes.
It basically boils down to this:
The wi-fi signals are less powerful than cell phone signals, and radio and television signals are yet more powerful than cell phone signals...all of which are floating around in the airs....
Are you gonna end those too?
I don't think it's dumb. Radio and television signals received by the human body in most locations are NOT more powerful than the signals received by a body in contact with a cell phone that's transmitting. Besides that, looking just at radiated signal power is insufficient. There are other signal characteristics which can influence the ability of those signals to affect the body, including (at least) carrier frequency, modulation frequency, and duty cycle.
Research is increasingly showing a correlation between adverse health symptoms and emf radiation exposure. Local and national governmental bodies in other western countries are paying attention and are beginning to legislate limits to exposure to wi-fi radiation by prohibiting it in certain locations. The trend towards increasing international concern is clear. Why are we so sanguine in this country?
It's quite easy to parrot the US mainstream consensus and denigrate with relative impugnity the countervailing experience and research of others, since the mainstream opinion in the US supports commercial interests in and widespread public acceptance of cell phones and wi-fi. The attraction of convenience is powerful.
I'll be very happy to find solid, unbiased evidence of the safety of wi-fi . . . evidence that convincingly refutes the research that points to a problem. If I do, I'll put my wireless router back on-line. Until then, it's off. And my hat is off to Sebastopol Vice Mayor and City Council member Linda Kelley, who put the wi-fi question up for discussion, and to Mayor Craig Litwin and Council members Sarah Glade Gurney, and Larry Robinson; all listened to the community sentiment and concern, and voted to terminate the wi-fi contract.
I’m unclear if you are intentionally propagating ignorance or are simply trying to improve the value of your investment in Comcast and AT&T. Propagating ignorance for personal gain is a tactic of folks like George Bush and has no place in honest public debate.
The only reason not to support public wifi is to protect the monopolies corporations that are among the least socially responsible organizations on the planet.
Does free wi-fi really support "equal access for all" ? Does the one access point theory hold up in light of this disclaimer between Sonic and Petaluma?
WELCOME TO THE CITY OF PETALUMA WIFI SERVICE
See also Wifi Instructions
SECURITY WARNING AND DISCLAIMER
WARNING: This service is an open network provided for your convenience, and you use it at your own risk. It is available to the general public, and is NOT INHERENTLY SECURE. The providers cannot and do not guarantee the privacy of your data and communication while using the service.
There are potentially serious security issues with any computer connected to the Internet without the appropriate protection, ranging from viruses, worms and other programs that can damage the user's computer, to attacks on the computer by unauthorized or unwanted third parties. By using the service, you acknowledge and knowingly accept the potentially serious risks of accessing the Internet over an unsecured network. It is recommended that users take steps to protect their own computer system, such as installing current anti-virus software and maintaining appropriate firewall protection. For further information on how to protect yourself on this open network, consult a security professional.
By using this service, you acknowledge and agree that YOUR USE OF THIS SERVICE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. By using the Service, you also agree to all terms set forth in the following Disclaimer.....
Whether or not one supports wifi, everyone would be well advised to consider this security warning.
Your internet connection, wifi or not, is not secure.
This warning equally applies to your internet connection _no matter how you get your connectivity_.
WiFi is not substantially less safe (from a data security perspective) than wired access.
Learn and use end to end encryption if you require that level of protection. Install firewall and anti-virus software on your computer.
As far as security is concerned, WiFi and public WiFi are not the problem.
(if someone is interested in having a technical discussion about actual security risks of WiFi I would be happy to engage, but those risks are truly minimal).
For a hundred years now, we have been bathed in the radio waves coming from every single radio station and TV station in our area. They permeate our buildings and bodies continuously, 24 hours a day. Yet we are somehow still alive. The powers are rated in the tens of thousands of watts. The WiFi connection was one watt or a half watt. But what difference do numbers make when you can shout danger with no basis.
God save us from the fear mongers.
You are unclear, yet you make public pronouncements about the motivations of those with whom you disagree, while offering no evidence of your own to the contrary.
Please look at the data; I think you'll appreciate why there is real and growing evidence-based concern about EMR-related health effects at powers well below the level of apparent thermal or ionizing effect.
I have no interest in either fear-mongering or being unwilling to look at the reasons wi-fi and other electromagnetic signals may have an effect on my body.
[As an aside, signal power can't be the sole criterion for determining likelihood of having a biological effect. The effects of concern happen below the level of the macroscopic thermal and/or ionizing effects which have traditionally been the standards. Resonance must be a major key to the coupling of EM signal power into biological systems, so the frequencies of the carrier, of the modulation, and of the duty cycle would be relevant, in addition to the power.]
I resist losing a convenience. When I was a kid, I remember looking at the bones in my feet through a flouroscope in the shoe store. Very Cool! And Very Bad. Who knew?
I'm predisposed to turn away from news I don't want to hear, and to question whether it's true. I'd rather ignore it than devote the time it woulf take to really understand the issue. And I'd rather not be sitting here in the middle of the night, trying to let you know that there are people of good heart and sound mind who are taking a serious look at the EM radiation questions, and finding cause for concern.
I welcome the continued research into the rich intersection of biology and electromagnetic science, and expect much of profound therapeutic value will come of it. And, though I don't know the mechanism by which EM radiation influences the human body, the mounting evidence of untoward effects led me to pull the plug on my wireless router and to support canceling Sebastopol's public wi-fi plan.
I have a greater concern over this than anything that I have seen discussed.
US jobs are moving over sees at an alarming rate. Unemployment is rising, the dollar is dropping, the stock market is unstable and currently everyone in the US who took advantage of the equity lines of credit and interest based mortgages based on an inflated market are potentially going to be upside down in them.
At time when strengthening our position in the global, national, regional and local markets is critical; a project that would have increased visitor traffic and thus sales is rallied against. A key component to business success is determined by a minority to be unsafe for them.
So my questions are
Those opposed to this plan who created pressure and the argument of unsafe environment:
How are you personally bringing business into Sebastopol and adding income into the economy so Sebastopol thrives within the markets mentioned above?
What income do you generate for the city and its businesses on a wider scale? Where do you shop and how much of your net income directly is spent within the city limits? Is that disposable income enough to keep a business alive during a 2 year down turn?
Can you afford to fund the city in an economic drop to ensure that it remains alive and vibrant?
All this to point out that its nice to shop local but its even better for non locals to shop local!
Tustin, California, a small city, has a great sign "Live and Work where you must; Shop Tustin".
I would offer in general it really is truth the "shop" is what keeps a town alive.
Last edited by shellebelle; 03-21-2008 at 10:16 AM.
Sebastopol's choice of the precautionary principle wlll draw more people to this town out of respect for their green choice. Already this event has been mentioned on NBC by Cindy Sage co author of the Bioinitiative Report. The City Council is to be congratulated and thanked for educating themselves on something 500 people were concerned about. 233 signatures are online. read the comments. http://www.petitiononline.com/mufifree/petition.html
Scientists Sending Warning “Signal” About the Dangers of Going Wireless
Public News Service - CA
March 20, 2008
San Francisco, CA – Wireless technologies may offer convenience, but some experts believe our cellular phones, PDAs and wireless computer networks might be making us sick. Scientists meeting in San Francisco are discussing recent findings that suggest a link between serious health problems and the everyday use of wireless technologies.
Cindy Sage, an environmental consultant from Santa Barbara, is coauthor of the "Bio-Initiative Report," a review of more than 2,000 research studies on electromagnetic radiation. She says, despite their common use, the U.S. standards for the safety of wireless technology are inadequate.
"We don't want this to become another smoking and lung cancer or secondhand smoke issue. We think that people will make very good decisions that are protective of their families and themselves, if they have the information."
Magda Havas, an associate professor at Trent University in Canada, has done extensive research on the biological effects of environmental contaminants. She says many Californians are unaware of the risks they're taking.
"The problem is people don't realize that there are health concerns. So we have to get the word out that this form of energy is biologically active, that it can potentially harm your body and that we need stricter regulations."
Many European countries already have taken action, limiting the amount of exposure to wireless devices, especially around children. Experts suggest avoiding use of, not only cellular phones, but cordless phones as well, whenever possible. They also recommend using computers that are hard-wired instead of wireless.
More information is available online, at www.BioInitiative.org.
Lori Abbott/Kevin Clay, Public News Service - CA
It's odd to me that this posting just happens to be proclaiming the talking points for the Telecom Lobbyists. There are no hearth risks to WiFi and the argument that the poor are too poor to use computers is simply ignorant and offensive.
Public WiFi is a good for our community, economic development and education. The ONLY organizations who don’t support public WiFi are ISPs and TeleCom companies who benefit form pay-for-use internet access.
Okay - again I asked
PERSONALLY what are you doing?
Don't tell me what others are doing. I want to know about you personally. See personally you are responsible - your town's success and failure is yours.
I know this sounds harsh in some term but you are loud, pushy even and driving a project that could lead to this town not being here in as short as two years.
You are driving business and thus jobs out of the area.
I am wondering how you plan to replace these incomes. See these incomes are a big deal.
An income locally means less gas used to get to work, more money and resources staying locally, more local economic growth, just to name a few. Though as we all know a closed economic cycle doesn't work a successful economy requires fresh income from non local sources.
So now that the natural income the WiFi would have produced is gone how will you work to replace it?
So tell me
Do you work in Sebastopol?
Do you own a business with any employees? If so how many employees and how long have you had the business and how does it improve the local community?
Is your income such that you sustain others?
If yes then tell us how you sustain this community.
Explain to me how you invest in Sebastopol?
If no then explain why I or anyone else including the city leaders are having a conversation with you when you are only taking from the community and not investing in it?
I think your message says a lot about your fears. You admit that that you have no idea of how EMF radiation would affect your body yet you are still scared enough to want to nullify a real and demonstrable good, a radical and revolutionary technical advance, communication with the whole world, calling it merely "convenience".
You do not write in 1980 when the fears were brand new. There has been extensive writing and research on the subject. Yet you still can't even suggest a mechanism.
You suggest that radio frequency radiation is scientifically known to be harmful yet you do not suggest one single scientific study that you derived that information from.
You take refuge in some handwaving about power not being important, merely because you find it convenient to dismiss cogent countervailing arguments. Of course the power of radiation is central to any discussion of effects. You want to control the power - you want to make it zero (an impossibility as I pointed out earlier since we are bathed in radio frequencies and 60 cycle radiation constantly).
You talk about carrier frequencies and duty cycle as though to impress your readers with technical tems relating to frequency. Actually, the duty cycle has nothing to do with frequency (though it affects the length of time someone is exposed to this radiation).
All in all, I will still say that you are fear mongering - and you are all the more dug in because you have no information to solidly support your position. On the other hand, there is abundant information that could be brought forward to support the real and substantial benefits of a free wireless connection.
I love the progressivism of Sebastopol but with this fraidy cat decision, they have made themselves a greenwashing laughingstock.
Fears about possible health risks related to WiFi are simply irrelevant. The question being considered is not, how do we keep WiFi out of the community? but should it be public? WiFi is here and here to stay. Would we rather have a patchwork of thousands of individual and overlapping WiFi installations in businesses and residences or one public system? A single public system could be maintained and updated consistently responding to new technologies and developing scientific evidence about quality and potential health risks. If one truly believe that there is a health risk to WiFi the only logical position is that there should be one well maintained public system.
If we assume, for the sake of argument, that WiFi has health risks then the position apposed to public wifi is like debating the merits over thousands of individual out-houses verses a public sewage system. Clearly there are health risks in black-water but that’s exactly why we need a well maintained public system.
Beyond the question of health is the economic question. Having a patchwork of thousands of individual and overlapping WiFi installations means that a lager portion of the communities overall aggregate revenue will be spent on internet access while access is limited based on economic class. Economically disadvantages people should be encouraged to have access so that they can continue their educations and have broader employment opportunities. Public WiFi strengthens the economic stability of the community.
Personally I have not seen any compelling evidence that there are health risks. However, just as there are folks who claim global warming and evolution are yet to be settled issues I’m sure there will be cranks spreading fear about WiFi.
Sonic wired Santa Rosa with wifi. I have a friend who lives in the Rosenberg building at 4th and Mendocino and the signal he gets from the Sonic network is very weak even though he is right in the thick of the Sonic network. He picks up a much stronger signal from the library which is two blocks away. Private wifi hot spots may provide a stronger signal than anything that Sonic could have provided so the concept of a wifi free Sebastopol may be moot.
Look at how the nation views us now:
Was this the original intent?
Increased Subtle Energy Damage from WIFI
Electromagnetic Field (EMF) product solutions for subtle energy protection
Suggestions for Living Safely in a High-Tech World
(If you don't have a REJUVENIZER)
Human Consequences of Urban Technology
Last edited by Barry; 03-24-2008 at 01:42 PM.
Do you have any information from a site that's not trying to sell me something based on the information on the site? I've seen way too many web sites out trying to sell products like the 'Rejuvenizer', justifying them by some quasi-scientific means. Most of these fizzle out quickly, but some seem to stick around. I'd love to see some information on a less biased site, especially if it involves any sort of actual measurement data (and no, I'm not talking about E-meter measurements either).
The links you posted were fun though :). I like this one:
Google street view and cameras at insersections are still stealing our souls after all this time...
I'm sorry I am confused.
Now I know I am not an expert but I certainly would not go to a PSYCHOLOGIST to ask or receive answers for questions that should be asked of an Electrical Engineer!
Why Are You?
This is who you are quoting from what I can see
Phyllis Light is a nationally-known intuitive healer and personal growth counselor. She has a Ph.D. in psychology and has extensive specialized training as a healer. At work in the healing field since the 1970s, Phyllis helps clients make positive, lasting life changes and improve their relationships.
Phyllis does one-on-one private healing sessions, working long distance by phone, tuning into the person energetically and then providing telepathic healing that is life-changing. Phyllis' clientele spans the entire U.S., from coast to coast, and even includes people from other countries as well.
Phyllis applies her specialized knowledge about the mind-body connection to help clients discover their subconscious blocks to happiness and success. Permanent changes take place, greatly accelerating personal transformation.
An expert in relationship issues, Phyllis is the author of Prince Charming Lives! (Princess Charming Does, Too) Finding the Love of Your Life. . This book helps people heal themselves in the love arena and develop a greater appreciation of themselves, life, and all of their relationships. Her new book, Love Now, Here's How, empowers people to resolve their relationship difficulties. This book contains valuable research into relationship patterns, as well as powerful techniques and exercises to improve relationships.
A dynamic public speaker, Phyllis makes presentations throughout the world and appears on numerous American radio and television shows. Phyllis has also been featured in a number of print media, including Time magazine. A native of Baltimore, Maryland, Phyllis resides in Austin, Texas, USA.
Last edited by Barry; 03-24-2008 at 01:43 PM.
voxregalis just posted several links from http://www.lighthealing.com.
This is a site run by Phyllis Light, who describes herself as an intuitive healer and personal growth counselor.
She sells her services, and something which looks like a crystal called a 'rejuvenizer.'
Here is a page on them:
I suspect that one's response upon reading that page would provide a reasonably good west county personality test.
Thank you for posting those links. I think I now understand wifi opponents better. If someone can read the following paragraph and think it means something than I can see why that person would have problems with wifi.
Phyllis is constantly upgrading the Personal Rejuvenizer® to include any newly-occurring viruses and bacteria. Once you purchase your Personal Rejuvenizer®, any enhancements are AUTOMATICALLY ADDED ENERGETICALLY by Phyllis as a gift to you!
I agree that the statement was ignorant and offensive. See my Wacco post http://www.waccobb.net/forums/showth...2982#post52982.
I can see it now, bands of people on horseback with hotspot detectors, laying siege to buildings with non-public wi-fi and setting them ablaze. Watch out for the toxic fumes!
I do not have to answer YOU or anyone in order to have an opinion and offer information.
Wifi?"Sebastopol's choice of the precautionary principle wlll draw more people to this town out of respect for their green choice." Sasu***************************************************
"Sebastopol's choice of the precautionary principle wlll draw more people to this town out of respect for their green choice." SASU************************************************************
why don't you read the profile? If you do not live in Sebastopol, you can't have an opinion? voxirrelevant voxirrelevant vox*********************You make no sense. Your arguments are shallow and reactionary.This SASU is making good points....taking nothing away from Sebastopol.Sebastopol voted!!!!!!!!!Sebastopol City Council voted unanimously to terminate the contract with Sonic for city wide Wi-Fi!so.....YOU talk to the city council.can you......
Last edited by Barry; 03-24-2008 at 03:34 PM.
What people seem to keep touching on, but never going in-depth into, is that a properly constructed WiFi mesh network will expose users in and around the network coverage area to less radiation than the hundreds of private networks around. The devices that I've seen Sonic use so far are low-power, nothing compared to the .5w high-power WiFi cards and APs that people are beginning to use. I've found at least two 1w amplified APs in my area, which even as a proponent of wireless communications, seems too high powered for home users. As far as I can tell, the Meraki Minis that Sonic uses for the Santa Rosa WiFi transmit at less than 75mw.
I can help but notice that you, along with many other of our more strident posters, do not supply you real names on your profile. Are you not willing to be accountable for your posts?
Also it has come to my attention that you have written disrespectful private replies in response to a public post. You must be respectful if you wish to continue to be a member of our community.