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  1. TopTop #31

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Shepherd wrote: View Post
    The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, ...
    Yeah Shepherd, I guess before CVS opened up there was NO traffic problem on that one lane intersection into town????? Does the Barlow traffic add to the congestion of the one lane feed into town???
    If CVS were to leave and another store, like WF for instance, would move in there you would be OK with that left turn? What you are doing is making very selective observations and only apply them to CVS and then you try to paint me as the sole looney because I'm not one of your sheep.

    Maybe you didn't live here before WF moved in, and I'm the only who remembers the old health food store but it never was such a mess as it is now! Right now the WF traffic can back up to the CVS intersection and it has on numerous occasions!
    Last edited by Barry; 02-21-2017 at 11:11 AM.
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  2. TopTop #32
    sealwatcher's Avatar
    sealwatcher
    Supporting Member

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I and probably many of us on this bulletin board remember the old health food store - the Shelton Brothers - and the drugstore next to it (remember the awful smell of that old carpeting?!) and we also know that the population of the town has grown partly as a result of being a place where people thought they could find country comfort and later, when the town became a tourist destination, thanks to the Barlow. Now that the highway out of town has been enlarged, perhaps it's time to build a bypass over the Laguna, or some other ill-hatched idea. My nephew and nieces, all born in county, have had to move away because they couldn't afford to live here. That's what growth and progress have meant to Sebastopol, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-21-2017 at 11:13 AM.
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  4. TopTop #33

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Yes sealwatcher, it IS progress and growth that brings WF and CVS and the Barlow to town. The funny thing is that the sheeple on Wacco only see CVS as the problem. It is not!

    John, (the City Council) played poker with CVS and they lost. John had all the aces in his hand but when CVS raised their hand, he folded. He could have stopped their bluff, but he didn't and now he wants his money back.
    That's not how the game is played.

    They didn't do a proper traffic study and now he wants to rewrite the rules and blame CVS. CVS got away with almost everything they came for and now John is butthurt and he gets the troops riled up for what? Everybody is following lockstep because it is so easy to blame big money?

    John had a chance to do something about CVS and he didn't. Stop making excuses for a small town mind with no clear vision of what it wants to be! The hopscotch developments across the bowling alley are another example of another disaster planning for Sebastopol. Wake up!
    Last edited by Barry; 02-21-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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  6. TopTop #34
    Ohana
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Like every American story these days, there are layers to unfold so as to accomplish a broader and more inclusive perspective of things.
    CVS, unlike Rite Aid and Safeway have chosen NOT to benefit from tax "inversion"....the legal tool that supports American company mergers with overseas firms thereby allowing significant tax avoidance. They also don't sell cigarettes anymore....

    They may be corporate America, but are they the lesser of evils?
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  8. TopTop #35

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Well if you're a NRA member support the gun lobby and military contractors, you will definitely feel at home at Safeway! see my earlier post.
    Rite Aid/Walgreen DOES have a European foothold for tax reasons! from their own site;

    Walgreens Boots Alliance is the largest retail pharmacy, health and daily living destination across the USA and Europe. Walgreens Boots Alliance and the companies in which it has equity method investments together have a presence in more than 25* countries and employ more than 400,000* people. The company is a global leader in pharmacy-led, health and wellbeing retail and, together with the companies in which it has equity method investments, has over 13,200* stores in 11* countries as well as one of the largest global pharmaceutical wholesale and distribution networks, with over 390* distribution centers delivering to more than 230,000** pharmacies, doctors, health centers and hospitals each year in more than 20* countries. In addition, Walgreens Boots Alliance is one of the world’s largest purchasers of prescription drugs and many other health and wellbeing products.

    Please see my earlier post.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-21-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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  9. TopTop #36
    Diane Darling's Avatar
    Diane Darling
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I still don't understand why we're thrashing around about CVS, a fait accompli, when the hotel project is going to be a huge, huge traffic problem at the same place, and can possibly still be affected by public outcry. We are wasting out time wringing our hands about something that cannot be undone, while this new threat can be mitigated, possibly.
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  11. TopTop #37
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Ohana wrote: View Post
    ...CVS, unlike Rite Aid and Safeway have chosen NOT to benefit from tax "inversion"....the legal tool that supports American company mergers with overseas firms thereby allowing significant tax avoidance.
    Rite Aid, which was bought by Walgreens who merged with Alliance Boots of the UK, has chosen NOT to use the inversion strategy to avoid US taxes. More info here. Safeway is using inversion.
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  13. TopTop #38

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    LOL, Diane you don't make sense. You're not supposed to bring forth logical arguments that debunk the notion that CVS is the problem. You will be branded as the lone voice who has no standing in this community. The hotel will gridlock that intersection at times, but don't forget they will have a 2nd story!
    Quote Diane Darling wrote: View Post
    I still don't understand why we're thrashing around about CVS, a fait accompli, when the hotel project is going to be a huge, huge traffic problem at the same place, and can possibly still be affected by public outcry. ....
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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  15. TopTop #39
    Diane Darling's Avatar
    Diane Darling
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    This is sufficient reason for any conscious person to use Rite Aid. I have been using it for decades now and always found it just fine (hate the new layout of the Seb store, but WTF, eh?). Let's face it folks, our most powerful vote is our dollars, so transfer your prescriptions to Rite Aide or stop whining right now.

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    Rite Aid, which was bought by Walgreens who merged with Alliance Boots of the UK, has chosen NOT to use the inversion strategy to avoid US taxes. More info here. Safeway is using inversion.
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  17. TopTop #40
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Bob2 wrote: View Post
    ...If CVS were to leave and another store, like WF for instance, would move in there you would be OK with that left turn? ...
    I would not support a left turn on Hwy 12 into the current CVS location for any high volume store (such as WF). I don't know if a left turn was allowed when it was a Ford(?) dealership, but that had much lower visitation. A big ticket/low volume business would be appropriate there.
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  19. TopTop #41

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    So your point is that the left hand turn is the problem, not CVS?
    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    I would not support a left turn on Hwy 12 into the current CVS location for any high volume store (such as WF). ...
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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  20. TopTop #42
    rossmen
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    4 stories. Please get your facts and logic straight. Here we have a wider community forum to discuss development issues in sebtown, read by powers that be. The traffic study for cvs was flawed, just read it. The one for the hotel is of similar quality, too small a scope, with optimistic assumptions. Traffic engineers are dogs, eager to please.

    Quote Bob2 wrote: View Post
    ... The hotel will gridlock that intersection at times, but don't forget they will have a 2nd story!
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:48 AM.
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  22. TopTop #43
    rossmen
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    So your point is... groups make mistakes and any member involved should fall on their sword instead of sharing info and next steps?
    Quote Bob2 wrote: View Post
    ...John, (the City Council) played poker with CVS and they lost. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:50 AM.
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  23. TopTop #44

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol


    Are you saying there will be no 2nd story for the hotel ross? I don't think that's possible since it will be 4 stories high.
    Traffic study for CVS was illegal according to John. Do you know something more we don't know?
    Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
    4 stories. Please get your facts and logic straight. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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  24. TopTop #45

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Ross is your point that one person's POV (John's in this case) is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and everybody should just follow lockstep? It sure seems that the established order on this site wants to drown out some critical observations because I'm a newbie here (not in life)
    John logic is flawed to put it mildly.

    Two simple questions for you, Ross, and if you are willing to answer them, I'll tell you why he's barking up the wrong tree!

    1. If CVS had a 2nd story and it were developed for businesses or stores would that attract more or less traffic to that corner?
    2. I think John was on council for the hotel (not sure) but tell me will the hotel attract more or less traffic to that corner?
    Two simple questions, I'd like to hear your logic.
    Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
    So your point is... groups make mistakes and any member involved should fall on their sword instead of sharing info and next steps?
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:55 AM.
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  26. TopTop #46
    rossmen
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I agree that more building on the old pellini lot would be potentially more beneficial for the town. More traffic? Depends whats there. I think the hotel is too high, not sure about the traffic, don't trust the study done, too simplistic, in different ways than the cvs and barlow ones. I appreciate john for his honesty and willingness to play here. I learned a lot from his telling of the sebcvs story and take his warnings of future cvs moves with grave concern.
    Quote Bob2 wrote: View Post
    ... Two simple questions for you Ross ...
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:56 AM.
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  28. TopTop #47

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I'm getting lost in your reasoning Ross. So let me spell it out for you.
    1) Regardless of what kind of business is in the 2nd story of CVS it WILL increase traffic with delivery, workers, service and if it is retail it would potentially DOUBLE the CVS traffic.
    2) the hotel, same thing an increase of traffic with delivery, workers, service and guest checking in and out and going on trips.
    John is out there saying that CVS is creating the traffic problems; this is not true!
    Traffic has been a problem for years on that corner.
    People turning left into CVS is a new problem, but there are other businesses before CVS where people turn left in to as well. Will that be prohibited as well? If traffic is an issue, he should ask for a new traffic study and request strict enforcement and signage to prevent any potential conflict.
    Merely seeking to close down CVS doesn't do anybody any good, city will lose tax, people lose jobs and Sebasto will have another empty eyesore. It's vengeful because he lost, but it's bordering juvenil
    Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
    .... More traffic? Depends whats there....
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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  29. TopTop #48
    vlondi
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I don't know where you live but, in Sebastopol, the traffic around Whole Foods is worse and much more dangerous than anything around CVS. I've been nearly hit I can't count how many times because people coming from the Barlow or the road the police station is on don't seem to realize that the main road has no stop sign at that bend. Idiot drivers just pull out with no safe room to do so.

    Not to mention the pedestrians who are nearly hit every 5 minutes as cars just speed around the bend and pull into the Whole Foods parking lot without looking.
    Quote Shepherd wrote: View Post
    The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods,...
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 10:00 AM.
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  31. TopTop #49

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Shepherd wrote:

    The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person.

    And then there is two....
    Quote vlondi wrote: View Post
    I don't know where you live but, in Sebastopol, the traffic around Whole Foods is worse and much more dangerous than anything around CVS....
    Last edited by Barry; 02-22-2017 at 10:47 AM.
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  32. TopTop #50
    sealwatcher's Avatar
    sealwatcher
    Supporting Member

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    In my experience, the traffic at both these places is bad enough to cause me to take a circuitous route from my studio at Burbank Heights to get to either WFM or Community Market. How circuitous? Well, I'm a back roads driver naturally but going around Morris Street from Analy will get me there. Starting out by crossing carefully and watchfully at Bodega onto Nelson is just the start. We have a huge traffic problem here now and I really can't see what can be done. CVS and the Barlow have simply made it worse than before. Maybe that overpass over the Laguna IS a reasonable idea.
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  34. TopTop #51

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Shepherd wrote:

    The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person.

    And then there is three....

    Quote sealwatcher wrote: View Post
    In my experience, the traffic at both these places is bad enough to cause me to take a circuitous route from my studio at Burbank Heights to get to either WFM or Community Market. How circuitous? Well, I'm a back roads driver naturally but going around Morris Street from Analy will get me there. Starting out by crossing carefully and watchfully at Bodega onto Nelson is just the start. We have a huge traffic problem here now and I really can't see what can be done. CVS and the Barlow have simply made it worse than before. Maybe that overpass over the Laguna IS a reasonable idea.
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  35. TopTop #52
    John Eder's Avatar
    John Eder
    Form Seb City Council Member

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Tiann wrote: View Post
    John, Barry?

    I thought there was to be no left turn allowed into CVS from West-bound Hwy 12?! It is a problem. There's back up there for the signal at Petaluma Ave and Hwy 12 and it's hard enough to get through that intersection during high usage times. I'm concerned that drivers will try getting around cars stopped there for a left-hand turn and more traffic jams will occur (and frustration, too)....
    Terriann,

    Regarding your question about left turns into/out of the CVS project from/on to Highway 12:

    The Mitigated Negative Declaration/Initial Study for the CVS project incorporates the AECOM (traffic engineering consultants) Transportation Impact Study, dated March 16, 2011. This study was commissioned and adopted by the Sebastopol City Council immediately preceding the one upon which I served.

    The report discusses the intersection of Barnes Avenue (herein referred to as “the driveway”) and Sebastopol Avenue (Highway 12), concluding on Page 32: “Thus, it is recommended that a right-in/right-out restriction for the Project driveway on Sebastopol Avenue be implemented.”

    It further states, “The recommended right-in/right-out restriction on Sebastopol Avenue driveway can be implemented through physical barriers and traffic channelizing devices such as barrier wall systems, wide raised medians, non-traversable curb islands, and traversable raised curb systems. For example, a barrier wall system can be implemented between opposing travel lanes on Sebastopol Avenue in order to restrict left turns into and out of the driveway. Barrier wall systems are effective for deterring violations, but the driveway can also be designed with a channelizing concrete island to further deter left-in/left-out turns.”

    It concludes that, “A barrier wall system would create a barrier between westbound and eastbound on Sebastopol Avenue, which would restrict westbound vehicles from crossing over to the eastbound travel lanes in order to make a left turn into the driveway. Similarly, the barrier would restrict northbound vehicles from making a left turn out of the driveway. The concrete island would restrict maneuverability to allow entry/exit from/to the eastbound direction.”

    Caltrans submitted a letter to the City of Sebastopol on September 20, 2012 that agreed with the need to place a restriction on left turns at this location.

    At present, no indicators (signs, pavement markings, etc.) have been installed on westbound Highway 12 that left turns into the project are not allowed. A “No Left Turn” sign and a “Right Turn Only” pavement marking have been installed on Barnes Avenue where it intersects Highway 12.

    It should be noted that there is no center turn (or “refuge”) lane at this location, as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it. Therefore, all left turn movements into/out of Barnes Avenue are from/into the westbound traffic lanes.

    The City of Sebastopol, in its Conditions of Approval, required right turns only out of Barnes Avenue. It further states that the City shall monitor this location for issues with left turns into Barnes Avenue from Highway 12. Should they be deemed “…a substantial circulation issue…” the City may require signs or physical roadway restrictions. It is unclear if Caltrans ceded jurisdiction to the City at this location.

    I continue to be in communication with both the City of Sebastopol and Caltrans regarding this matter.
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  37. TopTop #53
    photolite's Avatar
    photolite
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I have to agree with others that the very worst congestion and diciest traffic is at the WF cluster****. Traffic at the CVS junction has been particularly bad, both east and west, on Hwy 12 for years. There has been a noticeable uptick since the completion of both The Barlow and Community Market. Those blocks between Gravenstein Station and CVS have upgraded considerably in recent years and generally are inviting more traffic of every sort.
    I haven't noticed many cars in the CVS lot yet but have noticed the right turn onto 12 east is moving more quickly with the restoration of the turn lane and the occasional car turning into the CVS lot, thinning out the traffic at the light . I've yet to encounter a problem due to someone turning left into the lot from 12 west.

    There are lots of reasons to dislike CVS, but I fail to see traffic being among them.
    As to design, I find the building to be a generic red brick monolith that may strike the "middle gray" of architecture. Though I don't care for it, I could easily find several examples I find more offensive within a block.

    Finally, what were the viable alternatives to this? The old Pellini building had become unsightly. Who else ever really stepped up acquire the property and who would be able to use the property, with architecture that everyone loves to hate, if CVS were to be successfully chased away?
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  39. TopTop #54

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Shepherd wrote:

    The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person.

    And then there is four....

    Quote photolite wrote: View Post
    I have to agree with others that the very worst congestion and diciest traffic is at the WF cluster****. ...
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  41. TopTop #55

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Funny how photolite says exactly the same as what I have been saying over several posts and gets a thumbs up from Barry right away, same as Shepherd who chastised me, gets a thumbs up, as he tried to single me out as a one person conspirator for mentioning the WF mess.
    Maybe that's how the old boys network works on this site..
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  43. TopTop #56
    tommy's Avatar
    tommy
    Supporting member

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I like the idea of a classy new hotel in Sebastopol … someplace a bit more appealing than the Main St Saloon, to have a drink.

    As to traffic concerns, I can't see how a 66 room hotel would generate the traffic that retail would. Of course if it's well designed & run, people may visit the restaurant more.

    Sadly, nothing stays the same. As a 40 yr resident of California, I have always observed the nearly continuous development pressure, for more housing & businesses. This is the nature of the desirability of California, & the Bay Area, & Sebastopol. It's part of what gives this area it's vitality & energy. Surely, we wouldn't want to build a wall around Sebastopol, would we?
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  45. TopTop #57
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Bob2 wrote: View Post
    So your point is that the left hand turn is the problem, not CVS?
    CVS is also a problem, both for how they dealt with the city and their evil corporate past, and just the notion of having a corporate big box (or medium, in this case) as part of our downtown.

    Yes, Whole Foods is also downtown, but they got there as a result of a buyout.

    Thanks to John's, and the rest of the council's, efforts, the building isn't all that bad. The building and the traffic impacts have been the most important aspects for me.

    At this point, I'm ready to bury the hatchet and I think the community should, too. As Diane points out, the battle is over and there are other more worthy issues to attend to (although I support the hotel project).

    Still, I don't intend to shop there, though, but I'm not going to protest it.

    What I do think is worthy, though, is holding them to being a good corporate citizen by supporting the various community-based initiatives that rely on business donations. This goes for other corporate businesses, as well. I'd like to see people/organizations post when they have approached the corporate branches for contributions and report what they gave (or didn't). I believe CVS has not given back to our community much.

    Regarding traffic issues around the plaza and WF, I think the biggest problem there is the slow throughput caused by the hard right turn at Main Street. I think we should explore easing that corner (ie removing the "point") to improve traffic flow:



    Of course, the sidewalk, crosswalks and signal would need to be re-relocated. The WF cross walk, Laguna Parkway, and the South East crosswalk also interrupt traffic, but if traffic could flow more easily when it is time for it to flow, I think it would help alot.
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  47. TopTop #58
    applefan's Avatar
    applefan
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    What I do think is worthy, though, is holding them to being a good corporate citizen by supporting the various community-based initiatives that rely on business donations. This goes for other corporate businesses, as well. I'd like to see people/organizations post when they have approached the corporate branches for contributions and report what they gave (or didn't). I believe CVS has not given back to our community much....
    great idea Barry to ask people to post when a local business steps up and donates to the community.
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  49. TopTop #59
    thea71096's Avatar
    thea71096
     

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    Quote Bob2 wrote: View Post
    Funny how photolite says exactly the same as what I have been saying over several posts and gets a thumbs up from Barry right away, same as Shepherd who chastised me, gets a thumbs up, as he tried to single me out as a one person conspirator for mentioning the WF mess.
    Maybe that's how the old boys network works on this site..
    What a bummer you feel that way. For a few years now Barry has politely and sincerely answered every idiotic question I asked and helped me maneuver this site. He's professional, personable and extremely fast to respond.
    Margot
    Frog Flats Ranch
    Last edited by Barry; 02-25-2017 at 09:06 AM.
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  51. TopTop #60
    american dream's Avatar
    american dream
    Supporting Member

    Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol

    I agree! JH
    Quote thea71096 wrote: View Post
    What a bummer you feel that way. For a few years now Barry has politely and sincerely answered every idiotic question I asked and helped me maneuver this site. He's professional, personable and extremely fast to respond.
    Margot
    Frog Flats Ranch
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