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  1. TopTop #61
    Sieglinde's Avatar
    Sieglinde
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    I remember low sperm count being attributed to underwear that was tight fitting and therefore, kept too much heat in that area of the body. So this is a good point. You have an incidence of cancer in the location of a piece of equipment. What does that equipment do. It gives off radar energy as needed or heat. Heat!!! The radar gun would not be emitting radio waves when not in use but it certainly could give off heat. I assume the cops left the devices on, in the case they needed to use them rapidly.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    If true, it certainly supports the concept that "cooked nuts=cancer nuts". Heating effects of RF are largely understood. ...
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  3. TopTop #62
    Sieglinde's Avatar
    Sieglinde
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Yikes. IEEE does not peer review its papers? Everybody had so much trust in them. I hope none of this bogus research that they publish at times affected programs where I worked.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    ...While it is not required that the authors of significant papers are well published, it is common that they are. I'm very surprised this made it through a peer review process; but we're only human.
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  5. TopTop #63
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    This study that Larry cites, claiming EHS is psychosomatic was a study by the Mobile Telecommunications and Health Research Programme which was funded 50:50 by the Telecommunications industry and UK government.

    Dr. Andrew A. Marino, PhD, (Director of Research at the Division of Sleep Medicine, Department of Neurology, Department of Cellular Biology and Anatomy, Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center at Shreveport, LA.) criticized the author of the study stating:

    "James Rubin, King’s College London published a blindingly biased paper in which he argued that there was no such thing as electromagnetic hypersensitivity (no robust evidence). His numerous studies on electromagnetic hypersensitivity are all negative, but that negativity was manufactured by employing experimental designs and statistical analysis that were virtually guaranteed to produce negative results. By means of jaundiced analyses he comes to the conclusion that EHS sufferers have a purely psychosomatic disease, a viewpoint that has untold benefits for his clients and funders, particularly the cell-phone companies.” https://andrewamarino.com/blog/?p=289

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson: View Post
    The scientific consensus seems to be that "electrosensitivity" is a psychosomatic phenomenon . ...

    I recommend this article from the Journal of Psychosomatic Medicine:
    ...

    Conclusions: The symptoms described by “electromagnetic hypersensitivity” sufferers can be severe and are sometimes disabling. However, it has proved difficult to show under blind conditions that exposure to EMF can trigger these symptoms. This suggests that “electromagnetic hypersensitivity” is unrelated to the presence of EMF, although more research into this phenomenon is required.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-18-2016 at 01:01 PM.
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  7. TopTop #64
    diaba
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    The suggestion to a member to be tested to prove the effects of emfs on her is beyond disappointing. Do you also need proof of chronic headaches, the stabbing/unrelenting pain of trigeminal neuralgia, phantom limb pain, nausea, the burning of peripheral neuropathy, the sensory affects of guillan barre, etc.

    Where is the compassion of this community.
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  9. TopTop #65
    sqb's Avatar
    sqb
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    There's plenty of sympathy, but in this case there's an issue that may affect a public policy and there is not enough solid evidence to the contrary and subjective 'evidence' is rare and anecdotal, the poster that suggested a test that was quite reasonable.

    OF COURSE there are examples of exposure to extreme radiation that leaves no doubt, like the idiot policemen who didn't read the REQUIRED warnings on the Radar Guns. But that was a direct exposure, inches away from balls, 100000 times as as strong as a wi-fi router.

    It's not a level exposure field here, folks and there are folks that don't want to see a tower in their neighborhood, even if they can't see it. There is also the matter of frequency, and the FM band is way down the scale of damaging radiation compared to the multi-gigahertz world of microwaves.

    My dad worked on the microwave radio relay towers in the late 40s, and he was trained to avoid being anywhere near the radiating horns, as would any communication worker. He never got cancer or ever became ill because of it. So the Bell system was big on safety and would have tabulated numbers on exposure. Unlike the military, AT&T and the Bell System took radiation and safety in general as a sacred duty.

    Dad told me about some idiots that would warm themselves in front of the horns. There's always going to be stupid but the fact is that all radiation falls off with distance, and when using 'radiation' as a blanket excuse to the deny a low power FM transmitter installation is just BAD SCIENCE.

    Note the inverse square law of physics:
    "The inverse-square law generally applies when some force, energy, or other conserved quantity is evenly radiated outward from a point source in three-dimensional space. Since the surface area of a sphere (which is 4πr2 ) is proportional to the square of the radius, as the emitted radiation gets farther from the source, it is spread out over an area that is increasing in proportion to the square of the distance from the source. Hence, the intensity of radiation passing through any unit area (directly facing the point source) is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the point source. Gauss's law is similarly applicable, and can be used with any physical quantity that acts in accord to the inverse-square relationship."

    I'm sure that the affected poster has sensitivity (and I know my daughter is psychic) , but the RELATIVE amount of radiation from this little KOWS tower is so small in proportion to the RF radiation from many of the appliances in your home.

    One would have to live in a wooden cabin with nothing modern to avoid ANY radiation. Not even a wired phone (which are all digital to the cabinet, then turned into a pair of wires).

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by diaba: View Post
    The suggestion to a member to be tested to prove the effects of emfs on her is beyond disappointing. Do you also need proof of chronic headaches, the stabbing/unrelenting pain of trigeminal neuralgia, phantom limb pain, nausea, the burning of peripheral neuropathy, the sensory affects of guillan barre, etc.

    Where is the compassion of this community.
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  11. TopTop #66
    Sieglinde's Avatar
    Sieglinde
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    When they are trying to force public policy to conform to their needs.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by diaba: View Post
    The suggestion to a member to be tested to prove the effects of emfs on her is beyond disappointing. Do you also need proof of chronic headaches, the stabbing/unrelenting pain of trigeminal neuralgia, phantom limb pain, nausea, the burning of peripheral neuropathy, the sensory affects of guillan barre, etc.

    Where is the compassion of this community.
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  13. TopTop #67
    Sieglinde's Avatar
    Sieglinde
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    There are many people with difficult or impossible to diagnose ailments. But this should not affect public policy.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-18-2016 at 02:01 PM.
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  15. TopTop #68
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by diaba: View Post
    The suggestion to a member to be tested to prove the effects of emfs on her is beyond disappointing. Do you also need proof of chronic headaches, the stabbing/unrelenting pain of trigeminal neuralgia, phantom limb pain, nausea, the burning of peripheral neuropathy, the sensory affects of guillan barre, etc.

    Where is the compassion of this community.
    I was the one who made that suggestion. No, I don't doubt nor need proof of Sandi's headache's, and other symptoms. What I did ask was to test was her attribution of the cause of those symptoms. She is advocating that public policy takes into consideration that EMF's are the cause of hers (and other's ) symptoms. I, and many others, are skeptical of such claims. But I am open to being convinced by a simple test.

    Yes, it would subject her to a bit more EMFs (to see if they do seem to cause a symptom), but I have to imagine she often encounters EMFs in any case, such as anytime she within an area serviced by wifi, cell service, or for that matter, radio. That's pretty hard to avoid these days.

    Sandi politely refused my suggestion, and offered a counter-suggestion:

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sasu: View Post
    Thanks Barry, but I don't like to subject myself to heart arrhythmias and headaches if I can avoid it.
    How about putting the skeptics together in a room, take them into a mindfulness body-centered meditation, and then turn on multiple routers and wireless devices and see if anyone can feel it?...
    I'd be happy comply with the terms of her test if no one "feels" anything she agrees to reconsider her attribution of the cause her symptoms to be EMF, however, I highly doubt she would. Furthermore, the proposition is that some people are more sensitive to others, so it would be a poor test.

    I still think it would be best if a local EMF sensitive person, or better yet several people, would consent to a test to see if they can identify when they are in the presence of heightened EMF radiation, and when they are not. If there's ever going to be any real data regarding EMF sensitivity, some people who claim to be sensitive are going to have to consent to be objectively tested.

    I thought the study that Larry posted, cast considerable doubt on the data collected so far on EHS, however, Sandi's post about the funding of the study effectively cast doubt on Larry's study. So I am back to the beginning. I doubt anybody's opinion has been changed by the discussion so far.

    A test sure would go a long way in settling a local/national issue. And if EMF sensitivity is "proven" true, it would do a lot more to advance their cause than tons of unconfirmed, self-reported anecdotal "evidence". I'd be happy to flip from being a skeptic to a "believer" and advocate public policy take EHS into account.
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  17. TopTop #69

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Hi again folks,
    Have any of you skeptical folks read or even looked at, the books I recommended?

    I appreciate the person who researched the authors, but that is not the same .

    Katie Singer and her book (author of "Electronic Silent Spring") should not be so easily dismissed, as she quotes (and documents) many, many academic studies and sources, of course peer reviewed.

    I don't have time or desire to argue about this, or debate, and am kindly hoping that y'all who are skeptical will check out these books at least (as I wrote, they are available for free from library).

    Kindly,
    Dusty
    ps: "Electronic Silent Spring" by Katie Singer and "Overpowered: What Science Tells Us About the dangers pf Cell Phones and Other WiFi-Age Devices " by Martin Blank, PhD
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  19. TopTop #70

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Hi
    I thought we were mostly talking about Smart Meters(the name of this thread), which are posted on people's homes. My neighbor's small studio has a SmartMeter located precisely on the outside wall, where (inside wall) her head is when she sleeps. 3 Smart Meters actually, for all 3 residences on that property.

    Cancers, etc. can take many years to develop, which make it hard to make the correlation.

    I love science and math, have been a teacher, and must confess that even though I've read the paragraph, "...Note the inverse square law of physics:..." multiple times, I still don't get it!

    I love Einstein, and one of my favorite quotes from him was something like, "If you can't explain it in a way that a first grader can understand it, you don't understand it well enough yourself...", something like that.

    I don't mean that you don't understand it yourself, but I feel confident that if I don't understand this paragraph, many others don't either:) I'd like to understand it though!

    From what I understand, Smart Meters were banned in Marin County, but PG&E did it anyway--anyone know more about this?

    It seems possible (probable) that the radiation emitted now-a-days has increased since the 1940's (when your dad worked on towers)...

    I think the USA, like Europe, should be using the --what's it called? Either the Cautionary or Precautionary Principle, something like that--meaning before we start using things (drugs, Smart Meters, pesticides, food additives,whatever), they should be proven to be safe.

    Seems to me the reason we don't do that here in U.S., is probably due to corporations making a lot of money from them. and with Citizens United, of course they have enormous political power...

    Gotta go!
    With Kindness,
    Dusty
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  21. TopTop #71
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    I thought the study that Larry posted, cast considerable doubt on the data collected so far on EHS, however, Sandi's post about the funding of the study effectively cast doubt on Larry's study. ...
    there should be doubt on any one study. That's one reason that studies of any integrity will disclose their funding. But there's nothing surprising about stakeholders funding studies, and the ones 'in the business' have the most money to spend on them. There's no such thing as a human researcher with no taint of bias; even if the bias is nothing more than a guess as to what the results might be before the data is all in. The system's designed to deal with that. And of course no system is perfect, the system of vetting research can certainly serve as proof of that. There are plenty of examples as to why no piece of research should be treated as gospel. Of course, there's even more examples of why Gospel shouldn't be taken as gospel. We just have to build our opinions and make our decisions with what we get.

    We also make decisions as a society where those giving input to the group decision aren't fully qualified - we'd get better decisions if the true experts were the ones with final authority. That's a feature, and maybe a bug, in the way laws and regulations are made. Because who the 'true experts' are isn't always apparent, we can't just find them and get off the hook. We're stuck with this - those who care the most, like those who feel they're affected personally, present what they hope is a convincing case. Sometimes that's just listing sources who take their sides, sometimes it goes farther and includes explanation as to why those sources are believable.

    A lot of the posts by the skeptics outline what it might take to be convinced. Sorry, Barry, not to impugn your skills as a scientist, but I'd prefer a bunch more academic studies to one with one subject. If I infer your position correctly, we agree it should be easy to demonstrate EMF sensitivity unambiguously. If so, given how widespread the worry over EMF is, why isn't this done routinely until it's generally accepted as fact?
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  23. TopTop #72
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by gaiasophia: View Post
    I love science and math, have been a teacher, and must confess that even though I've read the paragraph, "...Note the inverse square law of physics:..." multiple times, I still don't get it!

    I love Einstein, and one of my favorite quotes from him was something like, "If you can't explain it in a way that a first grader can understand it, you don't understand it well enough yourself...", something like that.
    I too love Einstein, and I think I can give the explanation in the spirit of what Einstein meant. First, remember six-year-olds don't know what squares even are! So the explanation to that six year old is: Even if radiation is strong at the center, it gets spread way out as you move farther from the center. Kind of like a balloon spreads out as it gets bigger. As it spreads out, it gets weaker.

    Are you just critiquing his phrasing? Of course, all he's doing is saying that radiation spreads out in a sphere, the distance (radius, 'r') that it's gone corresponds to the amount it has to spread out (the surface area). The surface area of a sphere (probably not middle-school math, I forget?) is r2 - and since the 4π part is the same no matter how far you go, the key observation is that as you go 'r' farther away, you spread (and thus dilute) the radiation by the square of r. Since squares go up really fast, the strength of the radiation goes down really fast.

    Sorry to be pedantic, but the post seemed to call for it!


    https://www.quora.com/How-correct-is...nd-it-yourself
    Quote Within the context of the full quote, ""If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.", there is a great deal of truth. This does not mean that you can explain what you might know about quantum mechanics to a six year old (impossible), but it does mean that you should be able to explain it simply to someone with the requisite background to understand a simple explanation.
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  25. TopTop #73
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    ok, getting OT but besides loving Einstein, there's Feynman. Here he explains why simple explanations are impossible:

    or in transcript form. https://lesswrong.com/lw/99c/transcr...why_questions/

    and another fun read:
    https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q...and-it-well-en
    I like the barmaid version better.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-19-2016 at 01:39 PM.
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  27. TopTop #74
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    There are many problems with smart meters beside harm to humans. The city's concerns are expressed in the ordinance, which was modeled after Fairfax.

    See Sebastopol's ordinance here.

    The legal issues are also written up in our CPUC legal appeal: https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M144/K897/144897236.PD

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sieglinde: View Post
    There are many people with difficult or impossible to diagnose ailments. But this should not affect public policy.
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  29. TopTop #75
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Barry, the mistaken belief that you and others make is that EHS only means you instantly feel something when exposed. My experience is that my health was poor, I was chronically tired, had pre-cancer removed, chronic sore throats, hip and back pain, cognitive problems, etc. The doctor told me I needed to improve my immune system, but he could not tell me how. I tried many things: Acupuncture, Tibetan herbs, cranial sacral, chiropractic, and none of the treatments lasted.

    In 2006 I had Michael Neuert test my house for EMF's and he found high EMF fields. I asked him if that could be affecting my immune system he said it could be. So I asked him "what do I need to do?". He said figure out the least electricity you need and turn the rest off at the breaker box. So we did this. I made no other changes except turning off the electricity. With the power off I felt better, more at peace, more relaxed. And slowly my health began to improve. Within a month I was substantially better and the pain went away, the sore throats stopped, my immune system improved, energy restored...etc.

    There are many people each with their own story of harm and that has nothing to do with the idea that we immediately can feel it, although some of us can.

    I also posted the kind of study you are seeking. You asked if it had been replicated, and I don't know if it has.
    An overview of EMF health effects based on studies can be found here: https://www.bioinitiative.org/table-of-contents/

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    A test sure would go a long way in settling a local/national issue. And if EMF sensitivity is "proven" true, it would do a lot more to advance their cause than tons of unconfirmed, self-reported anecdotal "evidence". I'd be happy to flip from being a skeptic to a "believer" and advocate public policy take EHS into account.
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  31. TopTop #76
    Bill95446
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    This is an interesting thread. There is nowhere on this planet that doesn't have some level of electromagnetic field. Every wire that has electric current flowing through it is surrounded by an EMF. Every electrical (or electronic) device has an EMF. The question isn't whether there is an EMF, but rather how intense the field is. And I note that the closer you are to the source, the more intense the field.

    Many have expressed concern over the EMF surrounding high-tension electrical wires, and those levels are significant at ground level below the wires.

    Research into the effects on humans is ongoing. A search on "EMF Research" yields lots of results.
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  33. TopTop #77
    sqb's Avatar
    sqb
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Bill95446: View Post
    ... The question isn't whether there is an EMF, but rather how intense the field is...
    Exactly.
    And getting back to my original point - which was that the KOWS transmitter is but a weak firefly compared to the MAJOR 30,000 volt high tension wires in the same vicinity as the tanks and the towers.

    A fact conveniently never mentioned in the NIMBY folks testimony or charges.

    It's all about degrees.
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  35. TopTop #78
    sqb's Avatar
    sqb
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Whatever, if one wants solar installed, you gotta get a smart meter.
    I have one right here on Woodland avenue and welcome it.
    I would have a big problem if the city took it away.

    Really, a Smart Meter is just another 'cell phone' as far as I can see. The ordinance is super paranoid.
    I'd rather see more effort protecting immigrants targeted by Trump right now.
    Gotta pick one's battles.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sasu: View Post
    There are many problems with smart meters beside harm to humans. The city's concerns are expressed in the ordinance, which was modeled after Fairfax.

    See Sebastopol's ordinance here.
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  37. TopTop #79
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    This thread is not about the KOWS antenna, we are discussing the smart meter ban that Sebastopol adopted in 2013.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sqb: View Post
    Exactly.
    And getting back to my original point - which was that the KOWS transmitter is but a weak firefly compared to the MAJOR 30,000 volt high tension wires in the same vicinity as the tanks and the towers.

    A fact conveniently never mentioned in the NIMBY folks testimony or charges.

    It's all about degrees.
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  39. TopTop #80
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Your reasons for wanting a smart meter seem emotional, and not based in knowledge of how they work or why they were designed. No one has to have a smart meter, not even solar customers. A smart meter is in no way like a cell phone. You can't turn it off, it transmits pulsed radiation up to 190,000 times a day, 1 watt or 2 watts plus antenna gain. They pollute the electrical grid with frequencies the grid was never designed to carry. Here is a simple primer of smart meter problems. https://emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meters/

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sqb: View Post
    Whatever, if one wants solar installed, you gotta get a smart meter....

    Really, a Smart Meter is just another 'cell phone' as far as I can see. ...
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  41. TopTop #81
    Sieglinde's Avatar
    Sieglinde
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    I was all for the antenna. I would like to be able to receive the radio station in Sebastopol. But KOWS dug a trench before approval that apparently damaged some tree roots. They should cooperate more with the city. I suspect that a proper survey would have told them where to dig a trench instead they went off half assed.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sqb: View Post
    Exactly.
    And getting back to my original point - which was that the KOWS transmitter is but a weak firefly compared to the MAJOR 30,000 volt high tension wires in the same vicinity as the tanks and the towers.

    A fact conveniently never mentioned in the NIMBY folks testimony or charges.

    It's all about degrees.
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  43. TopTop #82
    Sieglinde's Avatar
    Sieglinde
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Good point. Again, the PUC is the governing force on this and has the power to allow power companies to install Smart Meters. YOU CAN OPT OUT. Why deny this service to the rest of us?
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sqb: View Post
    Whatever, if one wants solar installed, you gotta get a smart meter.
    I have one right here on Woodland avenue and welcome it.
    I would have a big problem if the city took it away....
    Last edited by Barry; 12-20-2016 at 12:22 PM.
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  45. TopTop #83
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by gaiasophia: View Post
    Hi
    I think the USA, like Europe, should be using the --what's it called? Either the Cautionary or Precautionary Principle, something like that--meaning before we start using things (drugs, Smart Meters, pesticides, food additives,whatever), they should be proven to be safe.
    The so called "precautionary principle" is a canard to stop literally anything.
    If one supposes that EMF at low level for a short time might be safe, but for a longer exposure might not be, how long do you wait? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? Further, how to show anything is safe?
    Consider pure water. A lady died in a radio show contest to see who could drink the most water. Thus, based on the precautionary principle we should not sell water in stores as it has been proven, in some circumstances, to be unsafe?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

    So you have a principle that in practice can never be satisfied. Very handy for anyone wanting to stop anything.

    Instead, we must really develop some "risk criteria". Walking across the street on a sunny day exposes one to gamma rays that are cancer causing. Maybe we call this a risk criteria of 1. Flying across country exposes one to much more gamma radiation, maybe this is a risk 10. Smoking, for a year, might be a risk 20. Eating polonium might be a risk 1,000,000 (ask anyone who gets in the way of Putin). Xray: risk 100? Then we can place EMF in the proper risk category. maybe 1.01. However so far the evidence does not even say it is more risky than walking across the street. The reason we know it can't be very risky is the epidemiology factors just aren't there.

    There are 3 methods to determining dangerous effects:

    Epidemiology: do large groups sharing the same incidence of something, show untoward effects (so far, only texting while driving shows up).

    Physiologic mechanisms: gamma rays have be shown to break DNA bonds, such that some few remaining cells mutate to grow more rapidly (cancer) where as many more cells die. This is well documented and repeatable. The EMF network share some sketchy micrographs that claim Ca+ interference etc, but these are done by exposing cells directly, and have not established this effect in real-world situations, nor really established that this has lasting effect; most RF EMF is effectively absorbed or reflected in the first mm of the skin (this is the principle of the L3 scanners used in airports). WHO conclusion is that no physiologic mechanisms have been shown other than heating. FCC EMF rules are based on this science.

    Dose-response: A little causes a little problem; a lot causes a lot of problem. But there have been no dose response repeatable studies in any cause of EMF sensitivity from any reputable source (reputable means from a publicly funded university study in a major university). Some guy on you-tube with a $100 meter doesn't count.

    When UC Berkeley, a bastion of right-wing capitalism(#define sarcasm on for the hard-of-irony) has a study that shows any effect above, I'll start to pay attention; and still I'll want to know the risk criterion.

    If you agree that having a cell phone network might save 1 life a year due to access to emergency services, and contrasted that with the harm done by EMF, I'm guessing the good would far outweigh any bad that could be shown (and none has been).

    Now, back to Smart meters. If use of smart meters reduces CO2 at all, then one might imagine your personal harm from EMF is very likely far offset by your personal gain of reducing CO2. The CA PUC seems to think that having smart meters will reduce green house gases through more effective monitoring and grid control.

    I'll address the other, very valid, issues of Smart meters and network safety and other public policy later.
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  47. TopTop #84
    rossmen
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    This is not true. I have solar, installed 10/15, and have a new time of use analogue meter. Put your smart meter in your pocket and fry an intimate part of your body.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sqb: View Post
    ...Really, a Smart Meter is just another 'cell phone' as far as I can see. ...
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  49. TopTop #85
    rossmen
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Again quality might be just as important as quantity when it comes to devices in our homes and carry on our bodies. We can all agree that research has shown than quantity has risk, lineworkers blood and police officers balls demonstrate this. The research on quality shows difference, and is far below the threshold of demonstrated negative effect. The biggest reason for this is rapidly evolving tech. Preserving rights for individual caution is important for future understanding.
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Bill95446: View Post
    ...The question isn't whether there is an EMF, but rather how intense the field is. ...
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  51. TopTop #86
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    The so called "precautionary principle" is a canard to stop literally anything.
    If one supposes that EMF at low level for a short time might be safe, but for a longer exposure might not be, how long do you wait? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? Further, how to show anything is safe?
    Peer reviewed, published science on The Precautionary Principle and Electric and Magnetic Fields
    CONCLUSION

    "Here we have used EMF policy as an example of failure to implement the precautionary principle even though it could be done relatively easily and cheaply. We have not argued for any particular EMF policy, nor have we tried to define and characterize the full array of precautionary approaches. Instead, we relate the discussion of the precautionary principle and EMFs to larger questions about human agency and public authority. Reluctance to regulate on the grounds of avoiding false positives that may scare and upset people is paternalistic. In our view, concerns about the proper role of government paternalism are at the heart of questions about regulating environmental and health risks and therefore should be as central to the discussion as economic and epidemiological data.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1446777/

    Dr. Louis Slesin, Microwave News:
    "Precautionary policies to protect children from power line electromagnetic fields (EMFs) should have been adopted years ago. It’s a no-brainer, yet health officials continue to sit on their hands.

    There has long been widespread agreement that EMFs are linked to childhood leukemia. They are also likely to play a role in both brain and breast cancer as well as in miscarriages and in neurological diseases such as Alzheimer’s and ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease.” https://microwavenews.com/news/case-...onary-policies

    The CPUC has a prudent avoidance policy on EMF that includes radio frequencies (RF).
    However they ignored this policy and allowed deployment of millions of transmitters- on every home- without any safety testing. The President of the CPUC knew people were being harmed by smart meters.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-22-2016 at 03:20 PM.
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  53. TopTop #87
    Sasu's Avatar
    Sasu
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Dr. Jerry Phillips, a scientist who did cell phone safety research funded by Motorola speaks of how Motorola attempted to control the “message” and outcomes of his research. He found DNA damage from cell phone radiation.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    ok, getting OT but besides loving Einstein, there's Feynman. Here he explains why simple explanations are impossible:

    Last edited by Barry; 12-22-2016 at 02:53 PM.
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  55. TopTop #88
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Interesting thread with many valuable opinions ...
    I'd like to offer the following suggestions ...

    #1 - the saturation of microwave energy in our world is a new phenomenon and we don't know what affects it will have. The military is still testing these affects on their soldiers as microwave weapons become a reality. I can show you the contract offering for such testing which proves that they have a concern for their personnel who are instructed to use such weaponry in the battlefield.

    #2 - Barrie Trower, an ex British military scientist who specialized in the field of microwave weaponry has made it his goal to educate the public about the dangers of constant microwave exposure ... Look him up ...

    #3 - My own theory about emf sensitive people, and I know many, has to do with previous damage to the nervous system which makes them susceptible ... What causes this damage is unknown by me but it could be fluoride, aluminum exposure, etc.

    #4 - This discussion is about the health risks of this technology ... Are there other risks? ... Watch this ...
    Last edited by Barry; 12-22-2016 at 02:56 PM.
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  57. TopTop #89
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    I have a few friends with EMF sensitivity. My uneducated opinion is that it goes along with other autoimmune illnesses. If your immune system is compromised, you are more sensitive to other things. It is often combined with fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue which makes you more sensitive to everything. One friend recovered from her EMF sensitivity as her other illness got better. In my opinion, treating for autoimmune disorder is the solution.
    Try the Wahls diet - terrywahls.com/about-the-wahls-protocol/ - I have friends who have had great success with this diet. I am always trying to do it, but and short on will-power.... :(
    Last edited by Barry; 12-22-2016 at 02:57 PM.
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  59. TopTop #90
    Endendros's Avatar
    Endendros
     

    Re: Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

    Ahem, this is actually a known and recognized phenomena with either known or suspected physiological mechanisms - published in the Journal of Chemical Neuroanatomy.

    Microwave frequency electromagnetic fields (EMFs) produce widespread neuropsychiatric effects including depression

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