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  1. TopTop #31
    Jim Wilson's Avatar
    Jim Wilson
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Podfish, you raise good points. I understand that the comparison between driving and owning a gun is not perfect; but I think there is enough commonality to make the comparison useful. And I get that it would not be easy to repeal the second amendment. It is difficult to change the constitution.

    But there is precedent. The article that enacted prohibition was repealed by what is probably the simplest amendment to the constitution. In a similar way I think the focus could be an amendment that would say, 'The second amendment to the constitution is hereby repealed.' And leave it at that.

    This would change the conversation and allow for a more nuanced discussion. I don't view such a repeal as anti-gun; rather I think of it as anti-gun rights.

    It's a long shot (joke intended), but stranger things have happened.
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  3. TopTop #32
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    I agree, Jim.

    Some of the things I would like to see:

    1. Repeal the 2nd Amendment.
    2. Government issued gun possession with tough requirements.
    3. A government registered ownership deed for each individual gun.
    4. A very strict legal limitation on the number of guns a person can own.
    5. Every gun must have a unique serial number.
    6. Every gun must have a tracking device.
    7. Every gun must have characteristics that identify it from others, such as a striking "fingerprint" and barrel thread markers that help distinguish it from other guns.
    8. Gun legislation mimicking Australian legislation, which has been astonishingly successful.
    9. Permanent restriction from ever owning a gun for anyone who has ever been convicted of any felony or any misdemeanor.
    10. Very thorough background checks.
    11. An exhaustive mental health evaluation for anyone who solicits the government for any type of gun.
    12. A minimum 100% tax (based on the price of the gun purchase).
    13. Submission to drug testing.
    14. Alcoholism must be an automatic disqualified for gun ownership.
    15. Gun ownership must be legally defined as a privilege and not a right and can be revoked at any time.
    16. Submission to a lie detector test.
    17. A comprehensive 100 question form that must meet approval.
    18. An extensive and aggressive government buy back program with a minimum budget of one billion dollars every year.

    And that's just a start. That's just a few of the things that need to be done to get the gun pandemic under control. If we want to put an end to the pile of American cadavers climbing to the height of Mount Everest then we can start here and come up with more legislation in the future.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jim Wilson: View Post
    Podfish, you raise good points....
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  5. TopTop #33
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    ...Some of the things I would like to see: ...
    by the end of your list, you've gotten too intrusive for me. While I can't match Jeb!'s "stuff happens" cavalier attitude, I will agree that in a free society you can't proactively prevent all tragedies. And I've been tainted - I do want to live in a (relatively, at least) free society. And though I personally don't share it, I know many people who enjoy guns for some combination of rational and irrational reasons. Just because they're dangerous isn't good enough reason for me to take them away. I've got dangerous interests of my own, and I have no sympathy for people who would try to eliminate the possibility of me enjoying them.

    I don't aspire to utopia, it's probably not good for us until we've become angelic. Our bodies don't function correctly if you remove the stimula that we evolved to handle.

    In that sense the way we manage cars is a good analogy. Both devices are way too popular, there should be alternative solutions to the problems they purport to solve. Ideally they should both only be in the hands of enthusiasts who attempt to minimize their negative impacts on the rest of us. I'm not sure which device will be first to go....
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  7. TopTop #34
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Once again, I cite statistics ... this is from Forbes ...

    Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet

    "A couple of new studies reveal the gun-control hypesters’ worst nightmare…more people are buying firearms, while firearm-related homicides and suicides are steadily diminishing. What crackpots came up with these conclusions? One set of statistics was compiled by the U.S. Department of Justice. The other was reported by the Pew Research Center."

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...rimes-plummet/

    if you are really worried about crime on our streets, then rest assured, we will soon be policed by the UN...

    https://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ag-lynch-announces-global-police-force-partnership-un
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  9. TopTop #35
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    I never said that we should take people's guns away.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    Just because they're dangerous isn't good enough reason for me to take them away.
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  10. TopTop #36
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    if you are really worried about crime on our streets, then rest assured, we will soon be policed by the UN...
    I sure hope they do a better job than they've done in Sudan. The places they serve don't seem to be noteworthy for their level of effective population control.... (sorry, I guess that phrase has been co-opted.) effective control of the populace.
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  12. TopTop #37
    rekarp's Avatar
    rekarp
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    If you read the Pew Research Center study, you would find that none of their interpretations of the reduction in crime and gun violence are attributed to gun sales. It's only the biased opinion piece in Forbes that cynically draws this conclusion. And then there is the absurd nut-job comment about the UN policing us at the end...

    Whatever.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Once again, I cite statistics ... this is from Forbes ...

    Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet...
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:02 PM.
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  14. TopTop #38
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Forbes biased? ... how can anyone argue with this? ... gun sales way up, violent crime steadily declining ...

    and before you try to discredit me with name calling and insults, you should do some research ... here, will the United States Department of Justice website do? ... this story is all over the internet ... lots of interpretations out there ... so with crime statistics actually declining in this country, why on earth would we need a global approach to law enforcement?

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/a...united-nations

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rekarp: View Post
    If you read the Pew Research Center study, ...
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:03 PM.
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  16. TopTop #39
    Sempervirens
    Guest

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    I agree, Jim.

    Some of the things I would like to see:

    1. Repeal the 2nd Amendment.
    2. Government issued gun possession with tough requirements.
    3. A government registered ownership deed for each individual gun.
    4. A very strict legal limitation on the number of guns a person can own.
    5. Every gun must have a unique serial number.
    6. Every gun must have a tracking device.
    7. Every gun must have characteristics that identify it from others, such as a striking "fingerprint" and barrel thread markers that help distinguish it from other guns.
    8. Gun legislation mimicking Australian legislation, which has been astonishingly successful.
    9. Permanent restriction from ever owning a gun for anyone who has ever been convicted of any felony or any misdemeanor.
    10. Very thorough background checks.
    11. An exhaustive mental health evaluation for anyone who solicits the government for any type of gun.
    12. A minimum 100% tax (based on the price of the gun purchase).
    13. Submission to drug testing.
    14. Alcoholism must be an automatic disqualified for gun ownership.
    15. Gun ownership must be legally defined as a privilege and not a right and can be revoked at any time.
    16. Submission to a lie detector test.
    17. A comprehensive 100 question form that must meet approval.
    18. An extensive and aggressive government buy back program with a minimum budget of one billion dollars every year.
    ...
    Ed, I assume you're not at all affiliated with any libertarian organization! Starting with point #9, your program sounds like an authoritarian response to a social and cultural issue. How about starting with a discussion that's not quite so presumptuous about who gets to own guns?

    Who decides which "misdemeanors" disqualify one from owning a gun, when felons work on on Wall Street, for corporations, and abound in politics and the military? So, is a black man with a heroin possession conviction, yet now recovered from addiction and participating in society, not worthy of the same choices available to those who go to Wharton and make their living robbing others of their savings? Please explain how your arrive at your criteria for which crimes disqualify one from owning guns.

    Submission to drug testing: does this include prescription drugs, over-the-counter drugs (some of which have been implicated in behavioral effects), or just the ones that the government and corporate fascists think are too "liberating" in terms of being correlated with free-thinking individuals (e.g, THC, LSD, psilocybin, peyote)?

    Nevertheless, many of your points seem reasonable. I just don't trust any governmental standards when the bottom line is to maintain the economic status quo of massive economic and social injustice that capitalism and its proxy government provide and enforce. I doubt that you expect any "independent panel" to have the blessings of the government for the purpose of deciding who gets to own guns, and the government, at all levels, has demonstrated its incompetence and biases in terms of legislating social behavior.

    Failure to include the government and its corporate base in "gun control" is a losing proposition for the majority of humanity. I'll say it again -- gun control needs to start as a fundamental paradigm shift in social and cultural values, with personal weapon possession but a minor point in the overall magnitude of the changes needed. Until economic and social justice are available to every human being, any attempt to control human behavior by governmental decree or law (e.g., the TPP) is hypocritical and repressive.

    Why would anyone trust a government with a track record of over 200 years of racism, violence, broken treaties, unilateral acts of military aggression, violations of international and constitutional law, torture, genocide, and economic terrorism to administer a fair system of any sort, let alone weapons ownership? If the government isn't going to enforce the provisions of your program, who will do so?

    I'm fine with repealing the 2nd Amendment -- after all, the Bill of Rights is just a god-damned piece of paper! As are all the rest of government's decrees, regulations, and laws.
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:21 PM.
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  18. TopTop #40
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Peter,

    I see that you're new here so welcome to waccoland ...

    I am enjoying your posts, I really am ... and having just read about a $400 billion fighter jet that's been added to our military arsenal, I applaud your inclusion of all weaponry and all entities in this discussion ... but I must disagree strongly with your last statement here ... the Bill of Rights is not just another piece of paper ...

    The Bill of Rights is the reason that this country was, at one time, so popular ... it's one of the reasons that everyone came here ... there was the belief that one could escape fascism here and it was a magnet for the rest of the world ... whether or not it was real, we all grew up believing that we were in a free country because of it ... we felt that we could obtain justice if it was violated ... we felt protected ... throw out the Bill of Rights and you have what we have now ... a police state that spies on it's own citizens and subjects them to all kinds of horrors without any due process ... is that what you want?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sempervirens: View Post
    Ed, I assume you're not at all affiliated with any libertarian organization! ...
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:06 PM.
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  20. TopTop #41
    beshiva's Avatar
    beshiva
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    Some of the things I would like to see:....
    Whoa Whoa!! wow, i don't own a gun but with stuff like above, you make me want to own one...Now! Jeez, going from one extreme to another....no thanks
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:07 PM.
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  21. TopTop #42
    rekarp's Avatar
    rekarp
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    It seems that you're not even checking your own sources. The link to Forbes is from a contributor, Larry Bell, in which the magazine disavows any endorsement of his opinion. Here is one of his books: "Climate of Corruption: Politics and Power Behind the Global Warming Hoax"

    So he's a global warning denier - how nice!

    The US is interested in the UN only when it can be used as a shield to mask our military adventures. To think that our government would ever cede any control to the UN is ludicrous. We don't even recognize the International Criminal Court.

    As far as crime in the US, check out this graph and tell me we don't have a problem in relation to other western counties:
    https://www.businessinsider.com/us-v...-rates-2014-11
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Forbes biased? ...
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:08 PM.
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  23. TopTop #43
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Forbes biased? ....
    sure, these points can be addressed without any pejorative descriptions of them. Forbes of course has an editorial bias - everyone does - but it's not too pronounced in their objective reporting. However, the link provided wasn't to a report - it was to a guest columnist writing an opinion piece. That isn't an inference, it's the headline.

    Sure crime declining; the baby-boom is greying. Has nothing to do with gun prevalence. There are lots of other social and demographic changes that have happened since the 60's and 70's. You have a much harder time scoring smack in Times Square than you do getting a kid's toy from Frozen. That's not because of the change in weaponry.

    And why would you resist a global approach to policing? Globalization works in both the legal and illegal economies. There are more civilized nations than ours out there with good ideas on how to protect the public, and sharing information can indeed be useful. As Snowden points out, it's a cat that's out of the bag anyway, so better to not pretend it isn't happening and instead make sure it's used appropriately. The sci-fi image of a global uber-Gestapo isn't what's happening. The UN has enough trouble organizing agricultural programs much less a unified crowd-control system across the globe.
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:09 PM.
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  25. TopTop #44
    Sempervirens
    Guest

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    .. but I must disagree strongly with your last statement here ... the Bill of Rights is not just another piece of paper ...
    Arthunter, I guess you missed my poke at a former American president, and all neocons and neolibs and their legions who are content to let constitutional and civil liberties wither away while our government carries out crimes against humanity with impunity. Do you not recall that G. W. Bush referred to the U. S. Constitution as just a "piece of paper"? Sorry if you missed that classic moment in American leadership!
    Last edited by Barry; 10-10-2015 at 08:10 PM.
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  27. TopTop #45
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Thanks for the criticism, as it pushes me to investigate further ...

    The whole "climate issue" has been discussed to death previously and it has no place in this discussion, except perhaps to discredit a writer who doesn't share your particular point of view ... if we wish to argue about that issue we should start another thread ...

    I'm happy to hear that you still have faith in our government after all that has transpired in this country ... I hope that you're right ....

    Yes, I have no doubt that homicide rates are high in this country but is that due to gun ownership? ... that's what I'm trying to determine here ... Crime Prevention Research Center is a very good site with lots of statistics and graphs about the whole subject of gun ownership and crime ...

    https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/mu...fter-gun-bans/

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rekarp: View Post
    It seems that you're not even checking your own sources. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 10-11-2015 at 01:51 PM.
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  29. TopTop #46
    Sempervirens
    Guest

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    Mea culpa: Upon further review of the "piece of paper quote" attributed to G.W. Bush, I have found no substantiated source for the quote. The original source, Doug Thompson with Capital Hill Blue, has been discredited for its lack of demonstrable proof that Bush stated the words attributed to him. https://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/bu...ece-of-paper/#

    Most people - about all of us -- will never know what has been spoken during closed-doors policy meetings among elected officials, staff members, et al. Yet, in this case, the actions have been more than amply demonstrable, even if the myths aren't. Bush, Obama, Clinton, and other presidents have long since treated words in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as less worthy than the parchment on which they were printed. Those words, also known as "laws," are routinely ignored, qualified, and re-interpreted by government "officials."

    Despite all claims to the contrary, the "rule of law" is subject to exception in the name of "national security," the "war on terrorism," the "war on drugs," other fabricated "wars," and the full litany of crimes perpetrated against people and the environment for the sake of American military, corporate, political, and economic hegemony. In a purported "nation of laws," the actions of government and its proxies belie that description every moment.

    Bush-appointed Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, defied the writ of habeas corpus in public testimony https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Gonzales-says-the-Constitution-doesn-t-guarantee-2622014.php
    and has also described international treaties as "obsolete" https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-center/press-releases/ccr-opposes-nomination-alberto-gonzales

    Obama has taken the hand-off from Gonzales and run with it. And just like the Bushes, Clinton, Reagan, et al., they should all be running to prison for destroying the "rule of law." I suppose it doesn't matter much what a politician or "official" says when the actions tell us all we need to know.
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  31. TopTop #47
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015

    SUN OCT 11, 2015 AT 02:00 PM PDT
    Nobody is going to take your precious guns!


    attribution: Creative Commons via Wiki
    The United Guns of America

    After every mass shooting, we hear the same cries from the most fervent gun rights supporters. Thisshooting will be the one that Obama and the "libs" will use to take away their guns. There is no remorse or sympathy for the victims' families. There is, however, blame and contempt toward the victims for not carrying a firearm, and an unfounded fear that the government is going to take their guns.

    These are the same people who claim that government cannot do anything right. Let that sink in for a minute: The government that is so incompetent that it cannot be trusted to provide even the most basic services is somehow going to come and take away their guns. The sheer ridiculousness of this argument is, well, insane.

    As of 2007, there were an estimated 270 millionprivately owned firearms in this country. That number is most likely low, as there is no way to know for sure just how many guns there really are. There is no database listing each gun owner and the number of guns they own. There is no list of registered gun owners and in some states like Wisconsin, the names of citizens who have concealed carry licenses cannot be disclosed.

    The [Wisconsin] Department [of Justice] maintains a database of concealed carry license holders but access to it is strictly limited. Even law enforcement officers could not routinely check, say, whether a person they are stopping in connection with a violent crime has a license to carry.

    After President Obama's second inaugural address, National Rifle Association executive vice president Wayne LaPierre stated:

    [President Obama] wants to put every private, personal transaction under the thumb of the federal government, and he wants to keep all those names in a massive federal registry. There are only two reasons for that federal list of gun owners—to tax them or take them.

    That is the head of the NRA stoking the fears of its members. Read on to see what President Obama's plan, proposed in January 2013, actually included.

    1. Requires background checks for all gun sales and strengthens the background check system. This would include removing barriers under the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act so that states may more freely share information about mental health issues involving potential gun purchasers.
    2. Provides states with monetary incentives—$20 million in fiscal year FY 2013 and a proposed $50 million in FY 2014—to share information so that records on criminal history and people prohibited from gun ownership due to mental health reasons are more available.
    3. Bans military-style assault weapons and limits magazines to a capacity of 10 rounds.
    4. Provides additional tools to law enforcement. The plan proposes a crackdown on gun trafficking by asking Congress to pass legislation that closes “loopholes” in gun trafficking laws and establishes strict penalties for “straw purchasers” who pass a background check and then pass guns on to prohibited people.
    5. Urges Congress to pass the administration’s $4 billion proposal to keep 15,000 state and local police officers on the street to help deter gun crime.
    6. Maximizes efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime. The president calls upon the attorney general to work with U.S. attorneys across the country to determine gaps occurring in this area and where supplemental resources are appropriate.
    7. Provides training for “active shooter” situations to 14,000 law enforcement, first responders and school officials.
    8. Directs the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services to issue a statement to health care providers that they are not prohibited by federal law from reporting threats of violence to the proper authorities.
    9. Launches a national gun safety campaign to encourage responsible gun ownership and authorizes the Consumer Product Safety Commission to examine issues relating to gun safety locks.
    10. Helps schools invest in safety. The president’s plan calls for more school resource officers and counselors in all schools through the Community Oriented Policing Services hiring program. The plan also calls for the federal government to assist schools in developing emergency management plans.
    11. Improves mental health awareness through enhanced teacher training and referrals for treatment. The plan calls for the training of 5,000 additional mental health professionals nationwide. The plan also calls for coverage of mental health treatment under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act of 2008.

    A national gun registry is nowhere in that plan.

    However, there is something a registry would be good for other than confiscation or taxation: When some careless gun owner good guy with a gun has one or all of his guns stolen—and the police need to track where the weapons came from if they're used in a crime.

    It isn't just mass shootings that are a problem. With such easy access to firearms—seriously, it is easier to buy a gun than it is to purchase Sudafed—it is no wonder we have become numb to reports of gun crime. As of October 8, there have been 10,172 gun-related deaths in the United States so far in 2015, and 20,679 injuries. In comparison, between 2001 and 2014 there were a total of 6,845 U.S. service members killed in action over 13 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. In just a little more than nine months, we have already had more deaths by firearm this year alone than we had in 13 years of war.

    We must find the will to do something to stop this. There's not one simple solution to gun violence in the United States. But all Congress members, all gun owners who are against any gun control, and all NRA leaders have blood on their hands due to their inaction. They are also guilty of stoking unsubstantiated fears about something that will never happen: No one is coming to take your fucking guns.


    ORIGINALLY POSTED TO DAILY KOS ON SUN OCT 11, 2015 AT 02:00 PM PDT.

    ALSO REPUBLISHED BY SHUT DOWN THE NRA, FIREARMS LAW AND POLICY, AND BADGER STATE PROGRESSIVE.
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  33. TopTop #48
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Obama's full speech after Oregon mass shooting Oct 1, 2015



    Guns Do Kill People. A Lot.

    The Young Turks

    Published on Oct 12, 2015
    One of the reasons we’re upset about guns in this country is all of the mass shootings. Another reason we’re concerned is because, on a personal level, your gun is statistically more likely to kill you or your loved ones than bad guys trying to hurt you. Cenk Uygur, host of the The Young Turks, breaks it down. Tell us what you think in the comment section below.

    "A Texas man shot and killed his wife after mistaking her for an intruder.

    The man said he saw a light and someone standing at a distance, so he fired one blast from the shotgun.

    That’s when he realized he had shot his wife, 48-year-old Debora Kelly.

    Police tried to resuscitate her when they arrived, but she was pronounced dead at the scene from a gunshot wound to her chest.”*

    Read more here: https://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/texa...
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