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  1. TopTop #91
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    here try this ... https://tinyurl.com/qbbxqu6

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    I tried the link, but it didn't work....
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  3. TopTop #92
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Signed and shared. This petition needs more signatures to get him out of office for blatant conflict of interest. I hope those in our community who favor choice over mandatory vaccine compliance, and those who don't support conflict of interest, will sign.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    here try this ... https://tinyurl.com/qbbxqu6
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  4. TopTop #93
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    discussing vaccines and policy with you is like shooting fish in a barrel, boring and tedious. please educate yourself. there is a lot of information available on this thread which makes your simplistic logic completely out of date. can you imagine a set of information from which the conclusion is that not vaccinating contributes to aggregate health? thats the case being made, if you are curious, explore it...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    you're less likely to get sick - and not necessarily the you you. The aggregate you. So if you expose a quantity of vaccinated people, and a similar quantity of unvaccinated people, it's not going to be 100% for one group and 0% in the other. There will just be (hopefully a lot) fewer cases in the vaccinated group. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 04-14-2015 at 11:35 AM.
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  6. TopTop #94
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    discussing vaccines and policy with you is like shooting fish in a barrel, boring and tedious. please educate yourself. there is a lot of information available on this thread which makes your simplistic logic completely out of date. can you imagine a set of information from which the conclusion is that not vaccinating contributes to aggregate health? thats the case being made, if you are curious, explore it...
    oh, shucks, didn't realize that this was a technical forum - I thought it was a discussion for lay people who don't typically read studies in the journals where they're published. The response matches the question which was "if I get sick even though I took a vaccine, why doesn't that disprove their efficacy?" Yeah, that presumes that they do prevent disease. If you're too bored to read posts that don't fit your guidelines maybe you should just fish in a smaller bucket.
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  8. TopTop #95
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    i can argue all sides, as i guess you have seen me do. i take my responsibility as a parent and citizen seriously to meaningfully discuss a political issue about a medical subject. you just seem to play around in your tiny bucket. there are a number of aspects which bring to question vaccine efficacy, the one you cite being the least meaningful. it is boring to dispute someone who lacks curiosity about the subject.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    oh, shucks, didn't realize that this was a technical forum - I thought it was a discussion for lay people who don't typically read studies in the journals where they're published. The response matches the question which was "if I get sick even though I took a vaccine, why doesn't that disprove their efficacy?" Yeah, that presumes that they do prevent disease. If you're too bored to read posts that don't fit your guidelines maybe you should just fish in a smaller bucket.
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  9. TopTop #96
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277


    If anyone wants to avoid personal put downs, join the Red Pill Roundtable.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    i can argue all sides, as i guess you have seen me do...
    Last edited by thedaughter; 04-15-2015 at 11:34 AM.
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  10. TopTop #97
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post

    If anyone wants to avoid personal put downs, join the Red Pill Roundtable.
    And please don't insult each other here either!

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  12. TopTop #98
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Thank you Barry ...

    These are very complex issues ... the good news is that humanity seems to be waking up because of the internet and questioning everything ... vaccines, wars, climate change, government, water rights, food production, population, etc etc ... the bad news is that the world is suddenly crammed with information, some of it valuable, some of it fabricated to support special interests ... and I will be the first to admit that it is NOT easy to sort it all out ...

    Debate is valuable ... what isn't valuable is judgement calls and labeling ... that only shuts down conversations that we really need to be having ... if you read your post and honestly conclude that it would be insulting to you if the situation was reversed, can you edit it please? ... can we really strive to be a conscious community that practices the golden rule?

    I am no better or worse then anyone here and I do feel frustrated at times and I do battle with my ego ... but I do try to show respect at all times ... sometimes I might fail and if I do please call me on it ...

    There are no dummies here ... and discussions get passionate because we really do care about our world and our community ... the level of discussion is very high and I value each and every one of you, but I also know of many in our community who don't get involved because of fears of being insulted ... just sayin ...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    And please don't insult each other here either!
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  14. TopTop #99
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Insulting each other to try to get our point across seems like a last resort for control in a discussion. Some people will retaliate in a similar manner, but as Arthunter pointed out, some won't even enter the discussion for fear of being insulted. Some people who have good input will stay away because of their sensitivity to insults. That's unfortunate. I wish that this community in particular would set an example of conscious, non-violent communication, and I think it does for the most part. If we could just imagine the feeling of being on the receiving end of someone using our words to communicate with us. As Arthunter says "if you read your post and honestly conclude that it would be insulting to you if the situation was reversed, can you edit it please? ... can we really strive to be a conscious community that practices the golden rule?

    It's a simple practice we can use to elevate our communication, even when we disagree. In my marriage, there were so many things we didn't agree on, but there were never insults or name calling in 18 years.
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  16. TopTop #100
    meherc's Avatar
    meherc
    Supporting member

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    I'd rather focus on saving some of the outrageous salaries that these people make and using it for feeding people or providing them with health care rather than being so upset about #13.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    I guess i see it this way. Yes there are freedoms, and freedom is certainly worth protecting. But just because we are free to do something--because we have the legal right--doesn't mean we SHOULD do it--that's reserved, in my mind, for what's morally right.

    so--because we CAN refuse vaccination, because it is one of a gazillion rights we actually do have--is that a freedom worth fighting for? i mean: there are freedoms and there are freedoms, no? the freedom to carry an assault rifle--yep it's a freedom, so we should go to the mat to protect it just because it's our legal right ? What about the moral right, the ethical right, the societal consequences?

    I also have to say I don't share your view that our freedoms are so imperiled...i do see much of america's wielding of them as increasingly selfish and stupid...maybe causing my own fealty to civil liberties to erode a little

    sorry i didn't notice #13--i will go back and find it, although it would have been helpful if you had included it...

    kathy
    Marilyn Meshak Herczog, EA
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  17. TopTop #101
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    This is Robert F. Kennedy Jr’s speech at the SB277 rally that took place in Sacramento, California at the State Capitol on April 8, 2015.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/robert...cesses/5442453
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  19. TopTop #102
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    and a personal putdown could also be a challenge to step up your game. i read podfish as a caring intelligent freethinker with a love for science and rational discussion, with a humorous twist. just because i'm disappointed with his contributions to this thread... so what. thats my stuff. my greatest hope is to learn. i'm not on wacco to change anyone's mind but my own. i want to understand others point of view. why would podfish hew to the vaccine fascist ideology when challenged on his repetitive points? maybe because of his stuff?: (

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post

    If anyone wants to avoid personal put downs, join the Red Pill Roundtable.
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  20. TopTop #103
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Parents threaten to pull kids out of school if vaccine bill passes ...

    https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015...e-bill-passes/
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  21. TopTop #104
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    the senate education committee tabled the bill for a week yesterday, the guess is that there were not enough votes to pass. pan got a lot of questions he didn't have answers for. testimony from parents of vaccine injured children took the majority of time. senators were impressed by the grassroots turnout, tone and knowledge and are getting a lot of feedback. the recommendation now is to email or text, as their call intake is overwhelmed.

    things i have learned from this thread and other sources has shifted my trust of vaccines as a health strategy. i now regret some of the choices i have made to vaccinate and will be more careful in the future.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Parents threaten to pull kids out of school if vaccine bill passes ...

    https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015...e-bill-passes/
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  23. TopTop #105
    geomancer's Avatar
    geomancer
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    This is from JAMA: 'These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD"

    (the entire article is available for free)

    https://jama.jamanetwork.com/article...icleid=2275444

    Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism

    Importance Despite research showing no link between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism spectrum disorders (ASD), beliefs that the vaccine causes autism persist, leading to lower vaccination levels. Parents who already have a child with ASD may be especially wary of vaccinations.

    Objective To report ASD occurrence by MMR vaccine status in a large sample of US children who have older siblings with and without ASD.

    Design, Setting, and Participants A retrospective cohort study using an administrative claims database associated with a large commercial health plan. Participants included children continuously enrolled in the health plan from birth to at least 5 years of age during 2001-2012 who also had an older sibling continuously enrolled for at least 6 months between 1997 and 2012.

    Exposures MMR vaccine receipt (0, 1, 2 doses) between birth and 5 years of age.

    Main Outcomes and Measures ASD status defined as 2 claims with a diagnosis code in any position for autistic disorder or other specified pervasive developmental disorder (PDD) including Asperger syndrome, or unspecified PDD (International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision, Clinical Modification 299.0x, 299.8x, 299.9x).

    Results Of 95 727 children with older siblings, 994 (1.04%) were diagnosed with ASD and 1929 (2.01%) had an older sibling with ASD. Of those with older siblings with ASD, 134 (6.9%) had ASD, vs 860 (0.9%) children with unaffected siblings (P < .001). MMR vaccination rates (≥1 dose) were 84% (n = 78 564) at age 2 years and 92% (n = 86 063) at age 5 years for children with unaffected older siblings, vs 73% (n = 1409) at age 2 years and 86% (n = 1660) at age 5 years for children with affected siblings. MMR vaccine receipt was not associated with an increased risk of ASD at any age. For children with older siblings with ASD, at age 2, the adjusted relative risk (RR) of ASD for 1 dose of MMR vaccine vs no vaccine was 0.76 (95% CI, 0.49-1.18; P = .22), and at age 5, the RR of ASD for 2 doses compared with no vaccine was 0.56 (95% CI, 0.31-1.01; P = .052). For children whose older siblings did not have ASD, at age 2, the adjusted RR of ASD for 1 dose was 0.91 (95% CI, 0.67-1.20; P = .50) and at age 5, the RR of ASD for 2 doses was 1.12 (95% CI, 0.78-1.59; P = .55).

    Conclusions and Relevance In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.
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  25. TopTop #106
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    yeah well you know those ama shills...probably getting rich off the vaccines.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by geomancer: View Post
    This is from JAMA: 'These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD"....
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  27. TopTop #107
    CSummer's Avatar
    CSummer
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    How do Californians feel about SB277? - watch this YouTube video of a legislative hearing.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=SjZPoPaOk0s

    Synopsis: the ratio of those opposed to those in favor was about 10:1.

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  29. TopTop #108
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    I'm opposed to this attack on our rights to determine what gets put in our bodies, and our children's. I looked at a few comments from this video. What's really true? I read that there haven't been any deaths from measles in 10 years, yet one comment indicates "145 700 measles deaths globally in 2013". I don't have the reference where I read that there had been no deaths in 10 years. Can anyone contribute to the evidence on either side? Where does the truth "lie"?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by CSummer: View Post
    How do Californians feel about SB277? - watch this YouTube video of a legislative hearing....
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  30. TopTop #109
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Even though the majority of people were opposed, it got passed anyway. Business as usual, it doesn't really matter what we want or don't want. Thinking that we really have a choice seems like a fantasy that gives us false hope. We are living in the age of the "Rise of the Political Machines" that will grind us into dust. If people don't believe it, maybe they're better off.
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  32. TopTop #110
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    Even though the majority of people were opposed,....
    I'm not convinced by the idea that "the majority of the people (are) opposed". Politicians often are playing to the crowd, and although I'll give them some credit, I kinda doubt on this one most are voting their conscience and damn the consequences. I bet most are reading the public and think they're expected to vote this in. The presence of a passionate opposition isn't at all a sign of where the majority stands; a lot of times the passionate crowd kind of alienates the general public.

    On this issue, I really don't care much either way so maybe that taints my impression - but I get the feeling that the general public sees anti-vax as a crusade of the entitled, fighting against a first-world problem. Even the media's favorite truth-to-power boy, JStewart, painted the vaccine avoidance crusade as something planned in a Marin hot tub.
    Last edited by thedaughter; 04-24-2015 at 01:29 PM.
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  34. TopTop #111
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    no deaths in the us. over 100 cases this year (disneyland), 600+ last year (amish). the 145k estimate derives from the 20 mill case estimate worldwide. in the undeveloped poor areas where measles is still endemic its a lesser danger to the young and cases and deaths are rarely documented.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    I'm opposed to this attack on our rights to determine what gets put in our bodies, and our children's. I looked at a few comments from this video. What's really true? I read that there haven't been any deaths from measles in 10 years, yet one comment indicates "145 700 measles deaths globally in 2013". I don't have the reference where I read that there had been no deaths in 10 years. Can anyone contribute to the evidence on either side? Where does the truth "lie"?
    Last edited by thedaughter; 04-24-2015 at 01:30 PM.
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  36. TopTop #112
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    the interesting part of this study is in the discussion section when they asked the question why does the mmr vaccine seem to have a protective effect against autism? this is even more true in the raw data before they tweaked it (using racial and economic stats), to get the rr closer to 1. the speculation is that parents of children who show developmental delays might be more reluctant to vaccinate. more study needed.

    there are many of these studies using existing data claiming no correlation between mmr and the health effects wakefield brought up. perhaps the correlation is there, just covered up by parental wisdom.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by geomancer: View Post
    This is from JAMA: 'These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD"
    Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism
    ...
    Last edited by Barry; 04-24-2015 at 02:34 PM.
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  37. TopTop #113
    rossmen
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    the bill still has a long way to go, judiciary committee next week (where it is expected to pass >:( two reasons to hope for continued choice; similar bills have recently died in other states, and there is passionate and growing opposition, which counts a lot!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    Even though the majority of people were opposed, it got passed anyway. Business as usual, it doesn't really matter what we want or don't want. Thinking that we really have a choice seems like a fantasy that gives us false hope. We are living in the age of the "Rise of the Political Machines" that will grind us into dust. If people don't believe it, maybe they're better off.
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  39. TopTop #114
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

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  40. TopTop #115
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    I came across this by accident, and wanted to add it to the gathering evidence opposing mandatory vaccines.

    This is a video made in Denmark, showing the devastating effects on these young women who agreed to share:


    https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/tv2-denmark-documentary-on-hpv-vaccine-shows-lives-of-young-women-ruined/
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  42. TopTop #116
    sharingwisdom's Avatar
    sharingwisdom
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    I donated to another documentary called, "One More Girl" about a team who went across country to interview and show the devastating effects of gardasil has on pre-pubescent and teens. It's so heartbreaking to see these once active and bright kids suffering from these vaccine injuries...or dead. Another Nazi Merck production. 'One More Girl' has a FB page that is very informative too.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    I came across this by accident, and wanted to add it to the gathering evidence opposing mandatory vaccines.

    This is a video made in Denmark, showing the devastating effects on these young women who agreed to share:


    https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/tv2-denmark-documentary-on-hpv-vaccine-shows-lives-of-young-women-ruined/
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  44. TopTop #117
    HolisticKids's Avatar
    HolisticKids
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Kathy,

    I've been extensively studying vaccines for the last 20 years, and YES the freedom to choose whether these substances will be injected into your developing child's body is absolutely worth fighting for. If you can understand the damage that vaccines can potentially have to a young child's brain and body, you would say YES it's worth fighting for.

    Our children are the future - we need our children to be healthy with strong, clear minds. 54% of American children have at least one chronic disease. Vaccines are not the only factor, it's also toxic chemicals and processed food, but vaccines cause the greatest damage to immunity and young, developing brains.

    The parents who have exempted their children from vaccines are educated parents who have spent an enormous amount of time pouring over vaccine studies, vaccine manufacturer product inserts, and reams of information to make an informed choice. Parents who have already lost a child to vaccines - yes, children do die from vaccines - will have to have their other children vaccinated if this bill goes through. Children who have already had a bad reaction to vaccines will have to be vaccinated again. I can't imagine a mother having to go through that again.

    The vaccine industry has paid sponsors to push this bill no matter what. And they have no liability for injuries - they have been given complete immunity from liability. We all pay for vaccine injuries, emotionally and financially. There's a huge amount of ignorance among legislators regarding vaccine injuries, how disease is transmitted and how disease is prevented. And these are the people who believe they are entitled to make healthcare decisions for our children.

    Jane Sheppard

    www.healthychild.com

    www.curechild.com

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    I guess i see it this way. Yes there are freedoms, and freedom is certainly worth protecting. But just because we are free to do something--because we have the legal right--doesn't mean we SHOULD do it--that's reserved, in my mind, for what's morally right. so--because we CAN refuse vaccination, because it is one of a gazillion rights we actually do have--is that a freedom worth fighting for? i mean: there are freedoms and there are freedoms, no?...
    Last edited by thedaughter; 05-09-2015 at 01:23 PM.
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  46. TopTop #118
    HolisticKids's Avatar
    HolisticKids
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    passing this on:

    CALIFORNIANS: Call your state senator NOW! SB277 bypassing Appropriations (!) and moving straight to floor vote next Thursday!

    This is the latest update we have received from those working at the Capitol. Unbelievable, as though this bill will have NO fiscal impact to the state of CA!!!


    Please call your senator NOW, before 5:00 today, and tell them you want them to OPPOSE SB277...and go public with their opposition, too!
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  48. TopTop #119

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Thanks for the info! I intend to pass it along, so could you please let us know where you got the statistic that 54% of our kids have a chronic disease--I'd like to know, and know that others I speak to would question that also.

    BTW, my kids are grown now, but I made the informed choice to not have them vaccinated. When whooping cough went around, all the vaccinated got it much worse than my kids--2 acupuncture treatments worked wonders, and there were no needles used during the gentle non-traumatic acupuncture treatments.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by HolisticKids: View Post
    ...
    Our children are the future - we need our children to be healthy with strong, clear minds. 54% of American children have at least one chronic disease. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 05-11-2015 at 02:16 PM.
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  49. TopTop #120
    HolisticKids's Avatar
    HolisticKids
     

    Re: NO on Mandatory vaccines bill SB277

    Thanks for your story about your kids and whooping cough. In emailing/talking to probably thousands of parents over the past 20 years who don't vaccinate, it's clear to me that unvaccinated kids are far healthier than vaccinated. My daughter was exposed to whooping cough from a vaccinated kid when she was 14 months old and never got the disease. In fact at age 20 she's never had any of the diseases that people are vaccinated for. Not even a flu - ever. And yet, she's considered a "risk" to others.

    Regarding the sad stat of 54% of kids with chronic disease - it was a study published in Academic Pediatrics in 2011

    https://www.academicpedsjnl.net/arti...250-0/abstract

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by gaiasophia: View Post
    Thanks for the info! I intend to pass it along, so could you please let us know where you got the statistic that 54% of our kids have a chronic disease--I'd like to know, and know that others I speak to would question that also. ...
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