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  1. TopTop #31
    Icssoma's Avatar
    Icssoma
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Great post Nancy. My partner & i have been discussing the lack of "light industry" that we thought was what the barlow would be about, a mix, or what is there & "light industry".
    if you post to this thread i will make the next council meeting, so there will be at least 3 voices, bringing a friend.

    (locally focused on rehabilitating, training and re.homing rescued horses, and working to make the infrastructure solid for the community of volunteers who finds this work healing for them, as well as the horses. horses are 2nd to wine, in terms of $ spent in the agricultural community. sebastopol, along with santa rosa & petaluma, have the largest number of horses per capita--over 26,000 in the county)

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb: View Post
    Conrad,

    Certainly nothing is stagnant and the reason for how we got here and the answers to where we go from here are broad and complex, some within our domain, some totally outside. But for the sake of discussion, let's take Calson's Department Store as an example. ...
    Attached Thumbnails (click thumbnail for larger view) Attached Thumbnails (click thumbnail for larger view) Expand  
    Last edited by thedaughter; 02-27-2015 at 01:44 PM.
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  3. TopTop #32
    ChefJayTay's Avatar
    ChefJayTay
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Sebastopol is becoming.......Wait... what was this thread about again?
    Ohh yeah...

    Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs
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  5. TopTop #33
    1104GT's Avatar
    1104GT
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Thank you to all who took the time to respond to this post. I really appreciate all the thoughtful comments I received both on this thread and privately. This issue is coming before the Design Review Board this Wednesday, March 4 at 4:00 at City Hall. We would all benefit from hearing the voice of the community at the meeting.

    Thanks again,

    Ted
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  7. TopTop #34
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Here are a couple less extreme options that were proposed as alternate options for the east facing side:

    I would be fine with the second one, above.


    And here's one for the west facing side:


    This is still a little large for me, but way better than the one originally offered here.

    Please let us know what happens at the meeting, Ted!

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  9. TopTop #35
    joybird's Avatar
    joybird
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Still seems way overly large to me. Compare to Guayaki sign.

    Joy

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    Here are a couple less extreme options that were proposed as alternate options for the east facing side:

    I would be fine with the second one, above.
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  11. TopTop #36
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs


    I agree with you. I think it's excessive and not attractive at all. But then I don't have to see it, since I don't live in Sebastopol. I guess that's their particular font, but it doesn't have much artistic appeal, in my perspective. Well, I'll stop being nice....I think it lacks class; instead it seems crass and void of beauty.



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by joybird: View Post
    Still seems way overly large to me. Compare to Guayaki sign.

    Joy
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  13. TopTop #37
    Gus diZerega's Avatar
    Gus diZerega
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    While I was getting a coffee at Hardcore today I was talking with the folks behind the bar, and one is a major fan of the genuinely artistic kinds of young people's "graffiti art" done on everything from the skateboard rink in town to railroad cars.

    This art is genuinely industrial in origin and form. The words "The Barlow" and even "Sebastopol" could be worked into it.

    Odd as the suggestion will first seem, and I admit I feel a little odd in even making it, because it is light years different from the art I do, (which is detailed pen and ink) excellent work of that nature would

    1. Be far more memorable and enjoyable than the designs we are being urged to accept

    2. Does not deny the Barlow's industrial architecture, but rather exhibits an art form uniquely wedded to it.

    3. Would be a eye catching addition to those entering Sebastopol on 12 from the east.

    4. Has a kind of resonance with the fine metal sculpture our town is becoming noted for.

    Those who immediately throw up their hands thinking of gang graffiti should take the time to think about the more well done examples of this art- which is of a nature that it could change frequently as new art is added to it. I would suggest that those who specialize in doing quality work of this sort at least be asked for their proposals. No commitment- but see what our younger generation can come up with. We might be very pleasantly surprised.

    examples: https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1479&bih=917&q=good+railroad+car+art&oq=good+railroad+car+art&gs_l=img.12...1984.5877.0.8295.21.9.0.12.12.0.136.929.6j3.9.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.62.img..7.14.942.D6SuP6K1wPM#tbm=isch&q=graffiti+art&imgdii=_
    Last edited by Barry; 03-03-2015 at 10:57 AM.
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  15. TopTop #38
    Sweet1's Avatar
    Sweet1
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Hi all,
    Just want to say I think the big yellow B looks like a sports team symbol. I'd make a motion to remove the Yellow B and go with simple, architectural lettering consistent with the buildings' sleek profile.
    Cheers,
    Lucia

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post

    Last edited by Barry; 03-03-2015 at 09:41 AM.
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  17. TopTop #39
    authenticeye's Avatar
    authenticeye
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Especially seeing how that tree in the Sebastopol Liquor Store parking lot will be blocking the "B" to the word "Barlow". It would be wiser to place it further to the left so it is clearly read with out future request for a tree removal to assist with the Barlow's "aesthetics".

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sweet1: View Post
    Just want to say I think the big yellow B looks like a sports team symbol. I'd make a motion to remove the Yellow B and go with simple, architectural lettering consistent with the buildings' sleek profile.
    Last edited by Barry; 03-03-2015 at 10:57 AM.
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  19. TopTop #40
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    That B may be their logo, and I bet they paid plenty for it.....or maybe not. Graphic artists usually charge big bucks for simple logos like this. I remember when I had an ad agency business, we charged $5,000 for a simple logo and font that was created on the computer.

    This font reminds me of a newspaper masthead or a feed store. It just seems so incongruent with Sebastopol, and other signage around town. If they have to stick with it because it's their logo font, maybe if they put a frame around it, with yellow in the background, like their logo, it might help. And smaller would be an improvement! Half the size would still be legible.
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  21. TopTop #41
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    The problem with graffiti art is that it's not that legible. I always thought that about "Hardcore". When designing signage, it doesn't seem wise to sacrifice legibility for creativity. It is common to get very creative with signage, logos, etc. and I think it has more to do with ego gratification than having a legible result. But don't we want to be able to read signs? Can anyone relate to seeing a sign that was beautiful, but you couldn't read the words? I see it all the time. It seems counter productive.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega: View Post
    While I was getting a coffee at Hardcore today I was talking with the folks behind the bar, and one is a major fan of the genuinely artistic kinds of young people's "graffiti art" done on everything from the skateboard rink in town to railroad cars. ...
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  23. TopTop #42
    Gus diZerega's Avatar
    Gus diZerega
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    That's a valid point Shandi, but some is much more legible than others. That is why I linked to those many examples and also why, if I were exploring this possibility, I'd ask anyone making a proposal to submit a mock up so legibility would be obvious (or not). If it's hard to read I'd agree that would make it a deal breaker.

    Ironically, my conversation at Hardcore arose because their daily quiz was done in graffiti art that was both well done and hard to read!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    The problem with graffiti art is that it's not that legible.....
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  25. TopTop #43
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Part of the problem with small mock ups on paper is that when you're close to something it's usually more legible. The best part of the BARLOW mock up is that it's sized to scale, so we can really see what it will look like.

    In my print/ad business I had people coming in with their mock ups for business cards, bumper stickers, signs, etc. Many times the art was larger than it would ultimately be. So, I took their art, and reduced to the actual size, so they could see how illegible it would be. I never just took an order without this kind of evaluation, as many printers and sign makers do. They're not concerned with the resulting legibility. You can see examples of this everywhere.

    The customer who develops their own artwork is even more attached to it, so it can be difficult convincing them. I found that my visual method really worked, so they could SEE the truth! With bumper stickers, I'd get it to the size they wanted, then go outside with them, and tape it the car bumper, and have them walk back several feet to see what it would look like. This always worked!

    So, having an actual size mock up is really the way to go, and easy enough to do on the computer.

    I just have my doubts as to how much the community input will be considered.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega: View Post
    I'd ask anyone making a proposal to submit a mock up so legibility would be obvious (or not). If it's hard to read I'd agree that would make it a deal breaker.
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  27. TopTop #44
    Gus diZerega's Avatar
    Gus diZerega
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Wise words, I agree that any design seriously considered by presented so we can see it the same way we see the current mock-ups. I also have my doubts any of this discussion will matter. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. We might as well make the case for considering alternatives.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    Part of the problem with small mock ups on paper is that when you're close to something it's usually more legible. ...
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  29. TopTop #45
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    I think the current design for the Barlow signage (the design - as in the font and the B, not the size and placement) is in keeping with the general design aesthetic of the Barlow development. I know many of you don't appreciate that aesthetic, but again I think it is in keeping with it's light industrial + art nature (which seems to be slipping away - who wudda thought?).

    The Design Review Board will be meeting tomorrow, Wednesday, at 4pm at the city hall (next to the library). If you are interested in this matter I suggest you attend. The agenda is here and the staff report is here and here.

    I presume the meeting will concentrate on the size and placement of the signs rather than the "design" of the logo. If you are interested in trying to change the logo, that's more of a question for the developer, Barney Aldridge. You can reach him via the Contact Us option on the Barlow website.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega: View Post
    I also have my doubts any of this discussion will matter. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. We might as well make the case for considering alternatives.

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  31. TopTop #46
    AllorrahBe
    Guest

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    I, too, agree it is too large! And I, too, suggested art installation(s) to attract attention, not distract from the very first impression many people will have of The Barlow and related businesses.
    Rev. BE
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  32. TopTop #47
    Ted Pole's Avatar
    Ted Pole
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Much of the unpaid consulting work on this thread, in well-meaning attempts to apply personal/communal aesthetics to commercial space, is concerned with how a blank space can be filled. Wherever it falls on the spectrum of unabashed commercial signage on one end to community-based "art" in service to marketing on the other, what happens on the walls of that metal building will contribute to the incessant visual clutter that makes up most of the Hwy. 12 approach to town.

    What is the need the owners of the space are trying to fill with this that couldn't be accomplished with bolder sculptural signage at the entrance to the parking lot in front of Community Market? It already has the "B", a list of businesses and is relatively kind on the eyes as these things go. They could simply add "The Barlow" as a text element, even make it all a bit bigger, and it would still function properly as signage that works with the visual flow and scale of the street.

    As for the building itself, I don't envy the Barlow management having to navigate the shoals of community tastemakers deciding what they can and cannot do with the property they own. Still, they kinda brought this on themselves.

    That said, I am extremely leery of any "graffiti-style" mural, and for a variety of reasons. Primarily because the thing that makes graffiti interesting is its "unofficial" (i.e. criminal) nature. At least the old-school tagging and throw-ups from the 70's. Graffiti has, like so many things, succumbed to the old Warhol dictum "if you repeat something often enough, it loses its meaning". "Graffiti-style", taught in schools, shown and sold in galleries, and marketed as fonts to designers, continues to stagnate in its content, methods of depiction and execution. The few exceptions to this are Banksy and his school of politically-charged, issue based defacers, who I imagine wouldn't be caught dead (or otherwise) creating "approved" work.

    The other part of a graffiti-based sign is that, like all graffiti, it encourages defacement. Needless to say this is an unwelcome cost to any business, and it will create even more jarring clutter to the area.

    To a lesser extent, the same could be said of another mural. While I really, really like the Coyote mural downtown (and maybe even more it's flip side on the inside wall of Sprint Copy Center - if you haven't seen it, go check it out), I know that the image is not for inherently commercial purposes. It is also, as murals go, contemplative in nature as well as content, and has miraculously managed to somehow avoid being tagged. The process for achieving a similar result on the side of the Barlow building is iffy, if similar sites in other towns are any indication. Incorporating "art" into commercial signage is difficult, at best. At least for the art.

    And the idea of using "Art" (you know, art with a capital A) virtually insures mediocrity. The commissioning of the art will be for works that serve the interests of The Barlow, period. Look at almost any office park, shopping center, or commercial building in the United States, the sculpture outside and the artwork inside is intended to decorate the space. And god help us, not another Amiot sculpture.

    Publicly-funded artworks often are more visually interesting and conceptually challenging because they are free from commercial restraints. Not always, certainly, but more often than those on a more privately-funded footing.

    But this is a commercial property, subject to malleable community laws. And while I would certainly prefer a blank wall, gently falling to the laws of wabi-sabi, simultaneously softening the area and enhancing the presence of the structures around it, I know there will only be a message to look at.

    You are here. Here is ours. Parking for customers only.


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  34. TopTop #48
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    (Elizabeth here) --

    Ted, thanks for this thoughtful and articulate post. When I think of delightful visual art in conjunction with Sebastopol, I think of the Coyote mural on the blank side of Odd Fellows, and the mural on the library parking lot's Main-Street side, and of course all the wonderful little vignettes on everything from Mimi's to Rosemary's Garden to the carp swimmming up from the Cookie Company. I understand your comment about "graffiti" and "illegal", but none of the things I have just listed smack of that. I have often bought a greeting card from a local artist just because it's (a) local, and (b) makes me smile. To me, that's the essence of what I love about Sebastopol.

    And let us all raise a glass to Patrick Amiot, who has made this all go viral.

    Quirky, colorful, accessible, friendly, warm. The murals are more curvaceous, while the metal art is more angles and edges, but both have a sense of humor and make you want to hug the maker.

    Can the Barlow have a sense of humor? The current signage is sleek and spare (and doesn't tell me where to find ANYTHING), but it fits the buildings. That's OK by me. We're a multi-faceted little town here. But it seems that part of the wild resistance to Chase/CVS was their corporate sterile face. An honest grin, wrinkles and all, trumps a Botox mask, as far as I'm concerned.
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  36. TopTop #49
    Victoria Street's Avatar
    Victoria Street
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Aside from the ginormous size, I don't have a problem with the proposed font and yellow logo of the Barlow. I think it lends a contemporary air - clean and modern. I think the above photo example of the smallest size is good. It's not the sign - it's the building that is ugly. It really needs some trees, some vines, some life! What this big metal box surrounded by a parking lot lacks is soul. Warehouses that morph into other uses/businesses are aesthetically successful when it happens organically over time - years of people leaving their creative fingerprints on the space. The Barlow is all ass backwards. New metal buildings trying to "funkify' overnight - like some over sized Martha Stewart "shabby chic" project...
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  38. TopTop #50
    AJL's Avatar
    AJL
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Wow, this is a long thread.
    What happed at the mtg?
    I miss the beautiful mural that used to grace the entrance to the Guayaki Cafe.
    Did the DRB require that to be removed or barlow mgmt?
    Putting back up the original font without the circle in the original place seems most appropriate to me.
    Otherwise, just say no to what they proposed.
    I don't think a counter proposal is necessary or appreciated.
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  40. TopTop #51
    1104GT's Avatar
    1104GT
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    The Barlow sign came before the DRB this past Wednesday. Three alternative sizes and locations for the large logo were proposed for consideration. After considerable discussion, the Board denied the application in a split vote 3 to 2.

    After hearing from lots of people in this forum and others in the community including in my neighborhood downtown, I voted against the proposal. My main concern was the potential this had to affect the character of town in a way that many may find objectionable. Although I personally like the idea of large scale graphics, I am not sure the majority of the community agrees with my personal taste in this case, so felt that opposing it was the correct thing to do.

    I thank all of you who shared your opinions on this forum and through private correspondence.

    Ted
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  42. TopTop #52
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    For the signage to be truly appropriate and organic with the architecture of the Barlow, I would suggest that it consist of huge block letters, the full length of the tin walls, saying SARDINES.

    To placate nature-minded folks, they might add some murals of tiny fish delighted with the prospect of being eaten.

    (I'm proposing this only in a mid-morning impulse of snark. The fad for "Industrial Chic" design irks me, but I have a high tolerance for irk.)

    Cheers—
    Conrad
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  44. TopTop #53
    rossmen
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    i think perhaps you have divined the meaning of barlow. and the fish, brilliant! are we not just fodder for corporate feeding? wither or not, we are eager to (be) consume/d...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye: View Post
    For the signage to be truly appropriate and organic with the architecture of the Barlow, I would suggest that it consist of huge block letters, the full length of the tin walls, saying SARDINES....
    Last edited by thedaughter; 03-07-2015 at 11:09 AM.
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  46. TopTop #54
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye: View Post
    For the signage to be truly appropriate and organic with the architecture of the Barlow, I would suggest that it consist of huge block letters, the full length of the tin walls, saying SARDINES.
    mmm.. I did eat some very tasty sardines there once. And it's very strange that somehow they are now a food fad, but the roasted brussels sprouts were awesome too...
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  47. TopTop #55
    nicofrog's Avatar
    nicofrog
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    YAY finally someone remembered the GUYAKI Mural! It WAS beautiful , and I was appalled when I heard Barlow required it to be removed so they could set a new "post industrial tone" for Sebastopol. YUK to that kind of yuppy thinking or Bauhaus,whatever its simply phony art I dislike the super practical architecture ,Cold impersonal and almost prison camp, If it wasn't for the nice gardening. I get that its become a cool new place for things like community market and the bakery etc ,we adapt. and what IS that huge fireplace? ostentatious three tons of masonry for the homeless to keep warm? could build a log cabin around it???

    The current "sign" is adequate and also ugly I always think that perhaps Patrick ought to come down at night with a can opener and change it into one of those Cartoon "Minions" and how appropriate .because it's "minions" we've become who can not stand up to corporate values,as I see it Sebastopol compromised a chance to have something that could have been a landmark of amazing buildings integrated with nature,and instead got an alter to mans power over nature.
    Bring back the Guyaki Mural!! and $&^*76^ the corporate needs.

    I think we should get Rolin! who is rumored to have decorated the OLD Hardcore after its abandonment , to re decorate the entire Barlow I will supply all the paint and art materials necessary ! there needs to be towers and mosaics ,and spiral staircases that go no where, and a few airplanes or upside down busses

    Unfortunately that would REALLY put Sebastopol on the map,and its hard enough to get in to town west bound on a weekend already , perhaps barlow will put in a heliport??
    In my humble opinion ,barlow has lowered the bar...and by the way..Isn't that kind of a dumn name..they should have called it the Morris! didn't a guy named Morris found Sebastopol?

    what happened at the meeting? lets guess... corporate $$ leads the way??object all you want ,here comes the big bang sign
    oh
    I have a B K in art,62 years producing and teaching art, I have been a sign-maker ,Currently playologist and palace builder.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by AJL: View Post
    ...What happed at the mtg?
    I miss the beautiful mural that used to grace the entrance to the Guayaki Cafe.
    Did the DRB require that to be removed or barlow mgmt?...
    Last edited by thedaughter; 04-11-2015 at 12:19 PM.
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  49. TopTop #56
    Victoria Street's Avatar
    Victoria Street
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog: View Post
    YAY finally someone remembered the GUYAKI Mural! It WAS beautiful...
    Wow. So THAT's what happened to the beautiful mural? That really sucks.
    Well - once California legalizes recreational pot (and it will...) some of those empty, unrented warehouses would make some awesome grow houses, not to mention cannabis tasting rooms...
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  51. TopTop #57
    nicofrog's Avatar
    nicofrog
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Yeah and what happened to the Patric Amiot sculpture that used to sit on that corner by the amazing tree?
    I suggest that sculptures and fun paintings all around is our nature,more that "oh wow a half industrialized cow and chicken farm town". And where is the Native American presence in all this?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street: View Post
    Wow. So THAT's what happened to the beautiful mural? That really sucks...
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  53. TopTop #58
    nicofrog's Avatar
    nicofrog
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Well done Ted;

    I like huge graphics too ,like an enormous alligator would be good ,or a relining female big foot.

    But i set the bar to low

    N

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog: View Post
    Yeah and what happened to the Patric Amiot sculpture ...
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  54. TopTop #59
    gypsey's Avatar
    gypsey
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    I am late to this thread and so I might be sharing thoughts that have already been discussed, but usually architects and planners for this type of development (as it was described and touted, not necessarily executed), have a plan for the public space including signage, art and landscaping.

    While I am far from a neocon when it comes to public spaces, I don't understand how this design enhances Sebastopol's identity at all or how it got approved. Public art is an important piece as is signage--visual design. It needs to be congruent with the overall architecture of the site AND the values and identity of the community. To me, there is a design disconnect between the Barlow and the community and I am wondering how this will be resolved.
    Just my 2 cents!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog: View Post
    Yeah and what happened to the Patrick Amiot sculpture that used to sit on that corner by the amazing tree?
    I suggest that sculptures and fun paintings all around is our nature,more that "oh wow a half industrialized cow and chicken farm town". And where is the Native American presence in all this?
    Last edited by Barry; 04-12-2015 at 12:34 PM.
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  56. TopTop #60
    authenticeye's Avatar
    authenticeye
     

    Re: Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

    Apparently the signage applicants don't understand the meaning of "no" -
    They are appealing to the City Council tomorrow - May 5th - item #4
    [click for appeal document]

    And.. in order to see the vote swing in their fairway the council will need to allow TWO sign exceptions to meet the zoning provisions.

    The DBR comments and analysis are on page 3.
    This may further yet warrant some public attendance and comment towards the City Council.
    The agenda noted there have been no public comments against the appeal application as of yet.

    I'm all for seeing a brilliant mural on that building !
    Be sure to write the City Council your thoughts as shared in this discussion thread!
    Last edited by thedaughter; 05-05-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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