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  1. TopTop #31
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Alex: View Post
    ... , I suspect that one of the most crucial and unexplainable factors is the psychic weaponry. Meaning, it may be pretty confirmable that the CIA trained and armed Al Queda, which then morphed into ISIL/ISIS seemingly appearing out of nowhere huge, methodical and well supplied... But in terms of my 'CIA did it' statement, I didn't say I also meant that the ongoing/further control likely has factors of psychic weaponry.
    I'm still taking issue with reality vs. perception here. I get an implication that you think AQ is a creature of the CIA in the way that the monster was of Frankenstein. I don't think that's true, myself. I think the CIA weasels itself into pre-existing groups far more often, and does what it can to shape their goals. There's no shortage of candidate groups in the world, all eager to exploit the CIA and shape the CIA's goals to serve their own ends.
    Also, the cliche of "overnight success after 30 years in the business" comes to mind. They only seem to come from no-where because we aren't omniscient, especially from this distance (physically and culturally).
    Quote "One can envision the development of electromagnetic energy sources, the output of which can be pulsed, shaped, and focused, ...
    Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, ...Welcome to Star Wars level warfare.
    I wouldn't be holding the door open for them. I can envision lots of things too, but don't bet on them being available anytime soon. I've worked with too many things that, for about fifty years now, have been two to five years away.
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  3. TopTop #32
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Podfish,

    This technology has been around for a long time and it was used during the Iraq war ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    I'm still taking issue with reality vs. perception here. I get an implication that you think AQ is a creature of the CIA in the way that the monster was of Frankenstein. I don't think that's true, myself. I think the CIA weasels itself into pre-existing groups far more often, and does what it can to shape their goals. There's no shortage of candidate groups in the world, all eager to exploit the CIA and shape the CIA's goals to serve their own ends.
    Also, the cliche of "overnight success after 30 years in the business" comes to mind. They only seem to come from no-where because we aren't omniscient, especially from this distance (physically and culturally).
    Quote I wouldn't be holding the door open for them. I can envision lots of things too, but don't bet on them being available anytime soon.
    I've worked with too many things that, for about fifty years now, have been two to five years away.
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  5. TopTop #33
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Podfish,

    This technology has been around for a long time and it was used during the Iraq war ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon
    a far cry from the claimed mind control beams. Those are the equivalent to firehoses, not surgical tools. And the effectiveness of even those is questionable, as well. There's a reason they're not all that widely used, despite their being touted as perfect tools for crowd dispersal.

    I know there's a vibrant community of people who believe it's here and in frequent use, but all the evidence I've ever seen is either personal testimonial that seems awfully subjective, or comes from someone claiming inside knowledge of secret programs. There never seems to be objective, independently and widely verifiable proof that can't be otherwise interpreted.
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  7. TopTop #34

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Ranking Member of Foreign Relations Committee grills Kerry September 17 on the Senate Floor
    Sen. Bob Corker: "Worst judgement possible", and on moving ahead on flimsy premise w/o Senate approval..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUwMv1Snri0

    -CORKER: "What Arab/Sunni country is going to be flying in and bombing and doing missle raids with an Arab insignia on the side?"
    -KERRY: "Senator you will hear that at the appropriate time....as the team works with all these countries...".
    -CORKER: "So we are going to have Arab/Sunni countries participating in the ground effort in Syria?"
    -KERRY: "No, I didn't say ground effort."

    Kerry further responds with evasive, grandiose, alluded to claims of supposed need of the US to be there with the implied support from other countries, and admits nobody is attacking ISIS but the US.... and that it is 'understood' the process to eliminate ISIS could take even 10 years.
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  9. TopTop #35
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

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  10. TopTop #36
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    >>>a good read ... https://www.activistpost.com/2014/09...sis-psyop.html

    The message being basically to wake up and take a stand against governmental psyop plots. Not sure how to do that, but it's a good idea. What I'm curious about, though, is a term I haven't heard before: "Zionist globalists." Is this about undue Israeli influence on US policy? International finance? The Elders of Zion? Any clues?

    -Conrad
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  11. TopTop #37
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote "Zionist globalists."
    Palestine just isn't enough.
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  13. TopTop #38
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    A very good question… it's extremely important to protect the good hearted, spiritual Jews by understanding the difference between Judaism and Zionism. I took part in a local Jewish celebration and felt nothing but warmth and peace at that event … Below you'll find a very good explanation of the two …

    Regarding the use of psyops in our world, awareness is an important first step …disinformation is often used to persecute and murder innocent people, in fact it's become an epidemic in our world … just look at the state of the media and the silencing of journalists and whistle-blowers … there is a war on truth in this country so we all need to stay vigilant and do research …

    https://www.nkusa.org/activities/spe...i011401.cfm%20

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye: View Post
    >>>a good read ... https://www.activistpost.com/2014/09...sis-psyop.html

    The message being basically to wake up and take a stand against governmental psyop plots. Not sure how to do that, but it's a good idea. What I'm curious about, though, is a term I haven't heard before: "Zionist globalists." Is this about undue Israeli influence on US policy? International finance? The Elders of Zion? Any clues?

    -Conrad
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  14. TopTop #39
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    >>>It's extremely important to protect the good hearted, spiritual Jews by understanding the difference between Judaism and Zionism. I took part in a local Jewish celebration and felt nothing but warmth and peace at that event … Below you'll find a very good explanation of the two …


    I'm quite aware that Judaism and Zionism are distinct entities, also that within the very broad realm of Judaism are radically different opinions about current Israeli policies. The article you cite is interesting, though, in being from an extremely fundamentalist rabbi who makes a case for Zionism being utterly anti-Jewish:

    "In the nineteenth century many segments of European society began to throw off the yoke of heaven. Assorted heretical movements grew up, which attracted both Jew and Gentile. Communism, evolutionism, Bible criticism, assorted forms of religious and secular liberalism, the Jewish Reform movements and scores of others, lured millions away from G-d and His law."

    He argues that the destruction of the 2nd temple and the Jewish diaspora were God's punishment for the Jews' sins, and that attempting to undo that punishment by returning to Palestine before the Messiah comes is directly contravening the Torah and the Divine. So too, presumably, are such evils as evolutionism, Biblical scholarship, liberalism, and Reform Judaism.

    I'm always fascinated to see the many ways people think, though I'm not sure the writer is the best example of the good-hearted, spiritual Jews cited at the outset.

    Cheers--
    Conrad
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  16. TopTop #40
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Conrad,

    Though it is an easy task to pick apart any description of Judaism ( or any other philosophy ), I think that the main points here are overwhelming ... Judaism embraces spirituality and brotherly love whereas Zionism does not ... this is the reason for the divisions in Israel right now concerning the attacks on Gaza ... these attacks go against the spiritual teachings of many Jews who are based in kindness and service to mankind, i.e. the Jewish Free Clinic .... https://jewishfreeclinic.org/ ... and I could post other links to this practiced philosophy ...

    Many people on earth believe that the globalist Zionists are hiding behind the Jews to accomplish their murders and theft of resources around the world ... if this is true then the Jews are once again victims of this agenda because it appears that this bloodshed is being done in their name, and it isn't ... most Americans will relate to this as we watch our military in constant wars which are questionable ...

    Here's another opinion ...

    https://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/...d-zionism.html

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye: View Post
    I'm quite aware that Judaism and Zionism are distinct entities, also that within the very broad realm of Judaism are radically different opinions about current Israeli policies. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 09-27-2014 at 12:34 PM.
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  18. TopTop #41
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    ... Judaism embraces spirituality and brotherly love whereas Zionism does not ...
    how 'bout "Judaism is a religion (thus concerned with spirituality and brotherly love) while Zionism is a political movement (and thus not so much)".

    Not all Christians were crusaders, not all Moslems are jihadis, not all Jews are Zionists. Not all C of E members ate Irish babies. People with shallow understanding of the other cultures and religions do seem to fall into conflating religion/ethnicity/culture/politics so they have a simpler 'other' to reference. Only members of any given group have a firm grasp on their distinguishing characteristics.

    But the idea that Zionists are hiding behind Jews is kind of weird. Zionists aren't known for hiding their intentions. They (insofar as there's a single "they", which there isn't, really) also don't pretend all Jews are Zionists. And Zionists are concerned with Zion. Tarring that whole movement by claiming they're really trying to take over the world is silly; some people who DO want to take over the whole world may be Zionists too, but they may also be vegetarians. There really is no connection. You are seeing propaganda that has usually been used to promote anti-semitism, not anti-zionistism, by masking the connection so as to appeal to people who would never willingly be anti-semitic or racist. It's pretty common to have a token reference to the mythical "good Jew" or "good Negro" or "good (member of group we're attacking)" worked in to such propaganda, just so there can be a claim that it's the sin we're attacking, not the sinner.
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  20. TopTop #42
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Podfish,

    It's the Jews themselves pointing the finger at Zionism ... it can hardly be called anti-semetic ....

    https://www.nkusa.org/

    and not all Zionists are involved ....

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    how 'bout "Judaism is a religion (thus concerned with spirituality and brotherly love) while Zionism is a political movement (and thus not so much)"....
    Last edited by Barry; 09-27-2014 at 12:35 PM.
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  21. TopTop #43
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    This thread has drifted COMPLETELY from its origins and the subject heading.
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  23. TopTop #44
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    It's the Jews themselves pointing the finger at Zionism ... it can hardly be called anti-semetic ...
    I guess I'm not expressing my point clearly. There's no such cohesive group as "the Jews". There are a wide range of attitudes about Zionism, and any individual Jew's attitude could be any of them. So of course some who 'point the finger' are Jewish. So are some dedicated Zionists. But even stating it as "the Jews themselves" reveals that you're not being critical enough of your fellow-travellers.

    The problem with this issue is that you can't avoid saying, in effect, "but some of my best friends are Jewish". Cabals based on Zionism, or the Rothschild's secret economic empire, for that matter, have been historically used as an excuse for persecution. Most often it's a hunt for scapegoats and it's triggered by strong anti-semitic beliefs. What's the cliche, "when you lie down with the hogs, you don't get up clean" or something.. So, unfortunately, there's an extra burden if you do want to believe that some in the Zionist movement actually are trying to (or already do) run the world; because it's so clear that many making that claim have despicable motives, you need to be careful before accepting their thesis.
    In many of your posts you're addressing the ways that the powerful oppress those who are weaker or in their way. I think you're misidentifying who goes in which group.
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  25. TopTop #45
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    I think that it's important to do some research here … there are facts involved …not every accusation is the product of anti-semitism … that, in my opinion, is a very outdated idea, a kind of reverse prejudice, if you will …

    There are many, many Jewish groups trying to distance themselves from the more extreme Zionists, and many less extreme Zionists feel that way too … I could post lots of links but, for the sake of returning the conversation to ISIS, I'll let it go, though I and others do believe that it is all connected ...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    I guess I'm not expressing my point clearly. There's no such cohesive group as "the Jews". ...
    Last edited by Barry; 09-27-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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  26. TopTop #46
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

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  28. TopTop #47
    Jim Wilson's Avatar
    Jim Wilson
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    One point I would like considered: We cannot trust the information coming from our government or from the mainstream media, such as the NY Times or the Washington Post, CNN, (and, of course, Fox -- goes without saying). Remember that all of these media and sources fed the people of this country with lies and deceptions in the lead-up to the second Iraq War. As far as I know, these media have never come to terms with their deceit and the consequences that deceit wrought upon Iraq, the Middle East in general, and to the body politic of the U.S. Many of the reporters and pundits who promulgated these deceits are still in their positions. It is true that a few, such as Andrew Sullivan, have publicly apologized for their role in the U.S. invasion of Iraq. But they are exceptional. And notice that Sullivan has gone off on his own and has some independence from the traditional media.

    I do not think this point can be overemphasized -- it is very likely, given the recent past (not just the Iraq invasion, but also Libya and the Syrian civil war), that we are being deliberately manipulated. I do not think there is any good reason to take at face value the information coming from these sources. Until these sources go through some kind of public repentance over their recent past, until they establish new procedures for reporting on these kinds of events, I think it only reasonable to have a deep skepticism with regard to what we are being told.
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  30. TopTop #48
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jim Wilson: View Post
    We cannot trust the information coming from our government or from the mainstream media, such as the NY Times or the Washington Post, CNN, (and, of course, Fox -- goes without saying). ...
    I do not think this point can be overemphasized -- it is very likely, given the recent past (not just the Iraq invasion, but also Libya and the Syrian civil war), that we are being deliberately manipulated. I do not think there is any good reason to take at face value the information coming from these sources. .
    of course you can't trust it. But that doesn't lead directly to "deliberately manipulated", at least in any conspiratorial sense.

    No information is context free. And people with agendas (ok, redundant. "and people") want to control, or at least influence, the way others view the world. So any implication that these particular sources of information are tainted, and other, more accurate or impartial sources, might arise to replace them, is mistaken. You have no better option than to glean information from as many sources as you can, and try to infer what reality is by understanding the beliefs, motives and constraints of those promulgating the information.
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  32. TopTop #49
    Jim Wilson's Avatar
    Jim Wilson
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    You make a good point. I only want to point out that given our recent past, and the way our wars have been promulgated, I think it is likely that crucial information is not being offered.

    In general, I agree with the AFSC's view as posted above. Is there any reason to think that our involvement in this war will end up improving the situation? Did our invasion of Iraq improve the chances for peace in the Middle East? Has our constant meddling in that region helped or simply exacerbated the tensions? My view is that the U.S. has not improved the region's difficulties, but has, in fact, made them significantly worse.

    I would also like to add that the public beheadings of IS are morally repugnant and disgusting. But so are the civilian deaths by drone that the U.S. has initiated, which include the execution without trial of its own citizens. I suspect that the very public display of cruelty on the part of IS has influenced many Americans into believing that we 'have to do something'. In contrast, Americans do not see the civilian victims of their own drone warfare and for this reason do not seem to be unduly bothered by it.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    of course you can't trust it. But that doesn't lead directly to "deliberately manipulated", at least in any conspiratorial sense....
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  34. TopTop #50
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jim Wilson: View Post
    .. Is there any reason to think that our involvement in this war will end up improving the situation? Did our invasion of Iraq improve the chances for peace in the Middle East? Has our constant meddling in that region helped or simply exacerbated the tensions? My view is that the U.S. has not improved the region's difficulties, but has, in fact, made them significantly worse..
    I suspect we agree more than we disagree on what the situation has been, but if I'm correctly interpreting your point of view, I'm less of an isolationist. However, I don't know that it's all that easy to say the U.S.'s involvement has made it worse. As you point out, we don't get a clear picture of the region from our news sources. But it's easy for me to believe that the various despotic regimes they've had in charge, at least since Peter O'Toole's day (ok, maybe the west is at fault at that...) aren't really any better in terms of allowing peace and freedom for their citizens. Maybe a slow peaceful process of improving human rights there would have happened if the west had left it alone, it's not possible to know. If Obama's intentions are to keep knocking down the most inhumane forces while waiting for (and attempting to create an environment for) more legitimate leaders to take control, then I'd agree he's on the only possible track. I want my government involved in resisting oppressive regimes; refusing to be involved is immoral. Most ethical traditions oppose ignoring the suffering of others. And while it's certainly true that the military-industrial complex, and the bankers, and the 1%, and lots of others, have their own motivations, as well as more influence about how the U.S. will proceed, that doesn't change the necessity to try to bring change there. And here, for that matter.
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  36. TopTop #51
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    How about these ideas? ….

    Killing innocent people is wrong … if it was you holding your dead child, how would you feel?

    Occupying someone else's country without invitation, without being attacked by that country, and without global agreement about this action is wrong …

    Destroying someone else's property is wrong …

    Compromising someone else's resources is wrong …

    Buying up all of the press and controlling what news is presented to the people is wrong….

    And yes Jim, attacking Americans without any due process is very wrong …. thank you for mentioning that … it's a cause that's dear to my heart ...

    With all of our technology, drones, surveillance, infiltration, bases, and allies it seems ridiculous that we can't identify these very public terrorists and wipe them out one by one …

    What's happened to this country? … what happened to the “Golden Rule”? … do we just believe whatever the bought and paid for media tells us? … do we actually stand behind our military actions around the world? …do we actually support torture and murder based on possibly compromised information?

    Do we really want peace or is that just some worn out slogan from days gone by? ... Can we ever just take the high road? … When all of our human rights leaders were murdered did we just let it go?

    Once again, I thought that we, as a people, were better then that ….
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  38. TopTop #52
    wisewomn's Avatar
    wisewomn
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Ed Mendoza thinks we've gotten away from the original thread with all this back and forth about Judaism and Zionism, so this letter to the editor (somewhere in England) seems timely:

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  40. TopTop #53
    Jim Wilson's Avatar
    Jim Wilson
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    We see things differently. First, I don't think there is any evidence that supports the idea that our government is motivated to 'resist oppressive regimes'. Saudi Arabia is one of the most oppressive regimes on earth; I think North Korea is the only regime that surpasses it. Yet our government has very intimate ties with the Saudi regime and is constantly touting it as 'moderate'. There are numerous examples of the U.S. working to install and support oppressive regimes in the Middle East and in South America. This has been going on a long time.

    Generally speaking, I'm an anti-interventionist. In most instances I think that refraining from being involved is the most moral stance. For example, refraining from involvement in Iraq would have been vastly preferable to the U.S. invasion. I think the same applies to the recent incursions by the U.S. in Libya and I also think it is the best position to take in Ukraine. It is not a 100% of the time rule; but non-interventionism is a good rule of thumb and I believe it would work far better, as a general principle, than the constant interference anywhere and everywhere that seems to be the general rule today and which has generated so much animosity towards the U.S.

    I honestly believe that non-interventionism would be of benefit not only to the U.S. but to the nations that we meddle with as well. I would suggest that constantly 'getting involved' is the immoral choice; letting nations and peoples have their own destiny is, I believe, morally preferable. On an individual basis I think most people can see this. No one likes someone who constantly interferes in their life, telling them what to do, insisting that they know what is best for them. I'm not talking about friendly advice which is asked for. I mean that kind of person who is what we call a 'busybody'. The U.S. is an international busybody (and often a bully as well) and just can't mind its own business. And the predictable consequence is that resentment against the U.S. continues to build.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    I want my government involved in resisting oppressive regimes; refusing to be involved is immoral. Most ethical traditions oppose ignoring the suffering of others. And while it's certainly true that the military-industrial complex, and the bankers, and the 1%, and lots of others, have their own motivations, as well as more influence about how the U.S. will proceed, that doesn't change the necessity to try to bring change there. And here, for that matter.
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  42. TopTop #54
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jim Wilson: View Post
    .. I don't think there is any evidence that supports the idea that our government is motivated to 'resist oppressive regimes'.... There are numerous examples of the U.S. working to install and support oppressive regimes in the Middle East and in South America. This has been going on a long time.
    can't disagree there... the question is what to do about ISIL, and I don't think there's a preferable alternative to what it looks like Obama's decided to do.

    In general, I'd like a U.S. government that acted according to its stated vision of itself - as a beacon of freedom and human rights. I'm not suggesting that past involvements in foreign affairs has often lived up to that standard. There are a few examples (Kosovo, as far as I can tell) that come close. And several government officials of various ranks have expressed sorrow over their failure to help in Rwanda. I'm also a tiny bit sympathetic with Kissinger and Machiavelli. There's no hope that the idealistic views expressed by some on this thread will ever match reality, at least until after the second coming. So I'm not particularly put off when a lesser evil prevails over a greater one.
    Last edited by Barry; 09-29-2014 at 01:49 PM.
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  44. TopTop #55
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    I guess I'm not expressing my point clearly. There's no such cohesive group as "the Jews". There are a wide range of attitudes about Zionism, and any individual Jew's attitude could be any of them....
    You forgot to mention the Erev Rav here. An odd omission considering the Bay Area is one of their "good-hearted" strongholds.

    Anti-Semitism amusingly visible when a discussion of the absolute catastrophe in the Middle East (caused BY the Brits and the Americans: ONGOING perversions that originated w/ the ignorant, arrogant, imperialistic meddling w/Ottoman Empire by the British... now manifesting as "The Islamic State") -- quickly turns into opinions about Jews (!) and unspoken subtext: whether Israel even has a right to exist.

    It's not complicated: If you are a Zionist, you believe Israel as a Jewish state has a right to exist. Israel's policies and how they go about trying to continue to exist while surrounded on all sides by hostile nations are a separate matter. I wonder why this basic understanding of Zionism is so difficult to grasp? Or why it comes up under " What to do about ISIL/ISIS? " Along with "How to Sew in 20 Easy Steps"? All of this would be a separate discussion. Glad everyone got back on track.
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  45. TopTop #56
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    all people have a right to exist ... in peace ... has our intervention in the region accomplished that goal? ... what does history tell you?

    and can I not criticize the actions of the Israeli government without being labeled anti-semitic? ... if not, what other country on earth is beyond criticism?

    and btw, while we spend billions fighting these wars, our own country is falling apart ... our infrastructure is crumbling, poverty is increasing, our soldiers are killing themselves in record numbers, students can't repay their debts, etc. etc. etc. ....

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    You forgot to mention the Erev Rav here. An odd omission considering the Bay Area is one of their "good-hearted" strongholds. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 09-29-2014 at 01:58 PM.
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  46. TopTop #57
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Please explain what the "Erey Rav" is/are.

    Thank you.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    You forgot to mention the Erev Rav here...
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  47. TopTop #58
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    Please explain what the "Erey Rav" is/are.

    Thank you.
    DZerach is referencing yet another malevolent force behind the world's events, one that's a modern bastardization of an old cultural boogieman. I wasn't going to post on it, because I think I've made it clear that I find the constant parade of candidates for nemesis-of-the-day to be a distraction, and that the mode of thinking that causes people to search for them and believe in them is fatally flawed. I find it the adult equivalent of looking for monsters under the bed. Apparently for many people true random, emergent human societies seem too hard to accept. They insist that there really are rational actors directing world events. They don't accept the 'invisible hand' in the way Adam Smith used the term - they think it's invisible because the person attached to it is hiding from us.
    Ordered systems arising from chaos seem to be the norm in the biological and physical realms, and I think in the realm of social behavior too. Obviously many others disagree.
    Kinda off topic by now, huh??? I thought we wanted to define our policies toward ISIL!

    (oh yeah, one more thing: the other mode of thinking that I dislike is the pigeon-holing of other people by characteristic or membership in an amorphous group. So I pointed out the anti-semitic foundation of the claims about Zionists and Rothschilds. This quote below also feeds that mode of thought. We clearly are endangered by those who "pursue passion and fornication", right??)

    ===========
    a representative description was on this site:

    "You should know that there are five kinds of `erev rav. The first kind are argumentative and libelous people; the second kind are those who pursue passion and fornication; the third kind are those who are deceitful, who pretend to be righteous but whose hearts are not whole. The fourth kind are those who pursue honor in order to make a name for themselves; the fifth kind are those who pursue money... and the argumentative kind are the equivalent of all of them: they are called `Amalekim, and the son of Dovid will not come until they have passed out of this world.."
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  49. TopTop #59
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Podfish,

    Let me refresh your memory ...

    Many people on this thread have expressed the idea that the public display of terrorism by ISIS was actually a false flag event meant to provoke another US military attack in the Middle East ... if you remember, most Americans were against a war in Syria and then ISIS appeared publicly beheading Americans ...

    I am suspicious about this and I posted a thread warning about psyops ... another Wacco member questioned me about the reference to Zionists in that thread and I responded with what I know ... actually drawing my information from Jewish authors to make sure that it wasn't anti-semitic ...

    If the idea that ISIS is engineered to justify our involvement in the Middle East, then the next question is "who would do this?" ... who benefits from this action? ... so a discussion of who's involved and who might benefit is not outside of the topic of ISIS ...

    Regarding the rest of your comment stating that citizens are just looking for fictional boogymen under the bed ... are you serious? ... tell that to the Jews who died in the holocaust ... that was a psyops operation ... tell that to the millions around the world who have died and suffered because of misinformation and covert agendas ... vigilance is not paranoia, it is born from experience ...

    It would be nice if one could discuss all possibilities and all those who might be involved with ISIS without being called paranoid and anti-semitic ....

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    DZerach is referencing yet another malevolent force behind the world's events, ...
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  51. TopTop #60
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    I wasn't going to post on it,...d
    I agree that you shouldn't post on it because it only makes sense when a fuller context is understood. A Jewish context. Because The Erev Rav are Jews. It's a question for religious Jews, seemingly, but concerns anyone who identifies as Jewish. Amazing how tribalism is inherently a bad word unless it's used in a context we personally enjoy, such as shamanistic studies or the various tribes indigenous to North America upon whom genocide was also attempted and has ALSO succeeded in many ways.

    Of what concern is it to those who are not Jewish? This is true for much of what gets predictably bantered about in the familiar snake pit.

    Anyone can convert to Judaism. I wish everyone so interested in Jews and Judaism would do so.

    The Erev Rav are not only divisive and sow the seeds of disunity but "seek to engineer their own destruction." The Bay Area's Jewish Voice for Peace organization is a prime example. They distort and select facts, spread propaganda and are not working for peace. Other, genuinely religious Jews do the same.

    (Coincidentally, highly relevant essay just now on "Zionism and Jews" - a topic everyone enjoys!!
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/on-jewish-anti-zionism/ )

    "The Erev Rav can take an activist role on behalf of some cause, or even specifically, a Jewish cause. But, if you truly analyze what they are doing, no matter how well-intentioned they make themselves appear on the surface, it is their personal mandate that they attempt to fulfill, not the national one of the Jewish people."

    "If they had their own flag, the golden calf would be their emblem in its middle."

    "...the golden calf represented man's desire to never grow up and take responsibility for himself and the world. And, when Moshe Rabbeinu came back down the mountain caring the antidote for such a lifestyle, what he found going on in the camp below was a wild party. "

    "...the ongoing challenge of the Jew, indeed of all mankind. We are caught in an ongoing internal battle between the drive for immediate pleasure and satisfaction,
    and long term gain."

    Pleasure and satisfaction here:
    ego-gratification because we gain pleasure only by rooting for who we perceive is the underdog instead of engaging in serious study and analysis; or the easy bonding with others based on like-minded opinions.


    https://www.torah.org/learning/perce...70/kisisa.html

    I am also merely pointing out cultural appropriation: how people do not know what they are talking about yet will proceed anyway when they feel self-righteous and superior, knowing nothing about a tradition, a culture, a religion, a country, the profoundity of historical facts and present day realities. This holds true for learning the facts about Israel as a nation, not just Jewish history/traditions. And yes, very much includes so much of history, cultural and religious attitudes that have brought us to current state of affairs in Middle East. How can we talk about it without understanding them, the actual specifics - which is different from our need to apply our cultural/belief/values lens over it.
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