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  1. TopTop #61
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Thank you for this …I welcome all information and well-documented apposing viewpoints …

    I can also relate to the frustration that you feel … I too have started threads on this forum only to have the information which I presented commented on without any research being done … often those discrediting me haven't even read the links which I've presented … we all do seem to have strong opinions without having the time to do thorough research ...

    Obviously, this is a very complex issue with a great deal of history behind it …honestly, I would rather not be involved in the Middle East … I feel that those cultures are intelligent and mature enough to workout their own problems and our meddling has only exacerbated those problems … but we are involved and Israel welcomes our support …this support. which takes the form of the blood of our soldiers and massive amounts of money which we don't have, draws the American public into age old debates which are really none of our business ...

    I do see many different opinions coming from Jews and Zionists and it is very confusing ... I also feel that there are bad guys and good guys in any culture and what determines the scope of oppression and power that they have seems to be money and propaganda, …. and most would agree that there's plenty of that going around, so we grope with ridiculous amounts of information as best as we can …

    My own personal philosophies regarding human rights are simple … they involve diplomacy, co-operation and mutual respect for all races and religions above all else … perhaps this is childish and unrealistic but it's what I would like to see … these endless wars are just crippling any real advancement in our world when we really need our attention to be on saving the planet …

    As they say, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind ...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    I agree that you shouldn't post on it because ...
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  2. TopTop #62
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    A friend of mine just posted this on FaceBook ... I think that there's some wisdom to it ... we're all running around arguing with each other while our resources are being stolen and our people are being murdered and controlled ... it's not Israel, it's not Muslims, or Christians, or Jews, or Hispanics, or Russians, or gays, or blacks, or women that are the problem ... it is those who reap the benefits of war ...

    "It's ALL Decent Human Beings, against Ruling PSYCHOPATHS. It's really THAT SIMPLE. The Parasites on top of the Global Disorder we're up against don't follow ANY of the religions sold to the enslaved masses of humanity who are made to do the dirty work of hating & killing each other. Don't short circuit & waste energy on horizontal blaming of human peers."

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  3. TopTop #63
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Here's a good conversation recently aired on Moyer's and Company. What a mess! (The bearded guy is really good!)

    I still think containment might be the least bad option. I feel for Obama who, I think against his better judgement, was pushed into the ill-advised war because of political necessity based on the emotional impact of the beheading (despite the many beheading that happening in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere) and the fear mongering of Republican party, and even some nervous Democrats. So, so unfortunate.

    My only hope is that the futility of our participation will become widely apparent during the 2016 campaign and it will help to support some candidate the calls for withdrawal. I doubt that will be HRC, and even Rand Paul has not had the courage to support his isolationist convictions in the current hysteria. Maybe he'll come to his sense, or better yet another young promising Democrat will arise propelled by the nation's war weariness.


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  5. TopTop #64
    phredo's Avatar
    phredo
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Read a report on "Democracy Now" about how the feared Khorasan group made its debut appearance just in time for the bombing of Syria to begin and then was retired soon after serving its purpose: How the U.S. Concocted a Terror Threat to Justify Syria Strikes, and the Corporate Media Went Along.
    ----------
    I can't help musing a bit over dzerach's last post. Always ready to enjoy myself, I took her suggestion and read the "highly relevant essay just now on "Zionism and Jews" - a topic everyone enjoys!!
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/on-jewish-anti-zionism/"
    , which states that, because having a state of their own has so far been the only effective safeguard for Jews,
    Quote anti-Zionism — rejection of the existence of Israel, not criticism of government policy — is inherently anti-Semitic."
    There is, however, an exception:
    Quote Unlike gentile anti-Zionists, ready to subject hapless third-parties to the risks of their own ideological mission, Jewish anti-Zionists would at least pay some personal price for their own miscalculations (Diaspora anti-Zionists, admittedly, less than Israelis). Their opposition to Zionism might make them misguided or naďve – I would say useful idiots, or traitors – but it need not make them self-hating or prejudiced against their people.
    In her last paragraph
    Quote I am also merely pointing out cultural appropriation: how people do not know what they are talking about yet will proceed anyway when they feel self-righteous and superior, knowing nothing about a tradition, a culture, a religion, a country, the profoundity of historical facts and present day realities. This holds true for learning the facts about Israel as a nation, not just Jewish history/traditions.
    dzerach seems to be making the same point about Israel as the article makes about Zionism, that, really, only Israelis are in a position to be able to criticize Israel. And the first part of her article suggests that only Jews should discuss matters Jewish.

    While I in principle agree with, "you need to first walk a mile in another man's moccasins...", all the above seems a bit too restrictive. May only elderly Germans talk about how Germans behaved in the 1930's and '40's? Or only North Koreans talk about the North Korean government? I prefer to point out this, albeit somewhat unusual for them, op-ed in Saturday's New York Times, "How Israel Silences Dissent".

    From this morning's "Up Front" you can listen to an interview between Brian Edwards-Tiekert and his guest, Israeli scholar Ilan Pappé. Hear it at kpfa.org/archive/id/107086 , read about Pappé at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Pappé . It's pertinent to the idea that Zionism is the only refuge for the Jews.
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  7. TopTop #65
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    After seeing this video and reading the opposing views not only in this thread but also in many non-wacco venues, I'm beginning to rethink my position on the US strategy against Daesh (what the French govt calls ISIS).

    I am entertaining the idea of abandoning Iraq to its own destiny. But my fears are: what if Daesh does succeed in founding a stable country? What if they consolidate half of Syria and half of Iraq into a permanent terrorist state? Will they acquire nuclear weapons? Will they use mustard gas against the Kurds? Will they attack what is left of Iraq? Will they attack Iran? Will Iran invade and annex the future country of Daesh? Will they attack Israel? Will they drag Turkey into a regional conflict where even Russia and/or China might get involved (although unlikely)? Might there be a full-scale war with 10 to 20 countries?

    One of the most impressive points made by the bearded guy was that a strategy of our enemies is to precisely bait the US and exhaust it economically, etc. If this is the case, and I'm beginning to think it is true, we are currently sinking in quicksand because it is indeed working very well.

    Although I hate to say this, but despite all of the beheadings of children and women simply because they are not Sunni Moslems, I'm beginning to feel that the only possible solution is to leave that region to its own demise. History will naturally find a new balance, however tragic it might be.

    It would be ironic if an up and coming state, such as China or Russia decided to invest heavily, as the US has, in introducing itself into the region. But, as Obama said, there is no military solution.

    Another idea that I think is looong overdue is the establishment of a Kurdish state and recognized by the UN. And perhaps we should also help the creation of a Shiite state, to the south of Iraq. Those countries will be easier to defend against Daesh, both now and in the future. It might even be possible to establish another Kurdish state in Syria but this is less realistic. I think Obama should have talks with the Turkish prime minister, Erdogan, about taking definitive steps towards the rapid foundation of the Republic of Kurdistan (or they can call it whatever they want since it would be their nation). The creation of new nations and governments is a good partial solution. Those new countries and peoples will be far more motivated to defend what is newly theirs, which historically and culturally had been theirs for hundreds if not thousands of years, just without a formal state, flag, or government. For over a decade, the Turkish authorities have stubbornly refused to support the constitution of a Kurdish state; indeed, they have vehemently opposed it because of their long-standing fears of the Turkish Kurdish rebel militants raising bloody hell inside Turkey for decades. I read somewhere that the Turks might actually be willing to support such a move now; a bold one for the Turks. I hope it happens and that it happen soon!


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    Here's a good conversation recently aired on Moyer's and Company. What a mess! (The bearded guy is really good!)
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  9. TopTop #66
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/on-jewish-anti-zionism/
    ...only Israelis are in a position to be able to criticize Israel. And the first part of her article suggests that only Jews should discuss matters Jewish.
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    ... "How Israel Silences Dissent"
    Who is trying to silence dissent or informed criticism? Not me. What have I shared that has asserted that sentiment? I am neither an Israeli nor have I been there nor am I Jewish. I have Jewish heritage. I am informed.

    The Erev Rav -- no, not mere dissenters! I was remarking on how Jews and Israel suddenly appeared while in discussion of ISIL. It astounds me. No one wishes to either directly or indirectly address that.

    I'll add for perspective: Be honest, how does it feel when someone who is not an American criticizes our country? On points we might all well agree on! Yet it feels quite different when coming from someone who is not an American, does it not? What if they haven't even lived here? Especially then. One can understand their interest as a "human rights tourist" or that they may have been victimized? But from where really does this unique quality of scorn, open hostility & freely-flung bitter contempt arise? Surely they would not feel this way about their own country, however disillusioned. I could understand if we talked about how much money Hamas' rockets have extracted from American taxpayers by way of the need for an Iron Dome. Every time a rocket is intercepted, the cost is huge - who is paying for all of that? And why are we not demanding positive, productive, effective strategies on the part of Palestinian people? Too grounded of a concern to be of concern.

    Sorry that you feel a comparison of a people to an age/sex subset of a country is honorable or even worthy. Of course you would choose Germany! So tiresome. Or that comparing Israel to North Korea is meaningful. I can't help you to be motivated to learn about Israel. I can only point you to other news sources. And question your interest since these comparisons you enjoy show you have not taken the time to be fully informed and they leave you open to have your interest questioned.
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  10. TopTop #67
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    I was remarking on how Jews and Israel suddenly appeared while in discussion of ISIL. It astounds me. No one wishes to either directly or indirectly address that. .
    you could have found the explanation - just back up in the thread. One of the earlier posts linked to a conspiracy-fomenting page that had these lines:

    "ISIS is now a full creation of the Western mainstream media, CIA, Mossad and allies...."
    then, anticipating that the author of this might not be widely believed:
    ". ... Another example of how anyone who opposes the U.S. Empire and the Zionist globalists is accused of being a "conspiracy theorist" across the board. Look for this pattern and question it. "

    At which point we took a turn toward "what the hell is a global Zionist anyway?" and it went downhill (and off-topic) from there. I helped with that, sorry....
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  11. TopTop #68
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    yAt which point we took a turn toward "what the hell is a global Zionist anyway?" and it went downhill (and off-topic) from there...
    Thanks for the archeology, Podster!

    Here's to hoping it goes back up the hill, and returns to the topic at hand: ISIS!

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  12. TopTop #69
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    I and others in this thread would not rule out the possibility that this was a false flag event ... it's just very convenient that terrorists showed up publicly attacking Americans after we the people decided that we did not want to have a war with Syria ...

    That being said, the discussion then shifts to look at who might have been involved ...

    Do we want to consider all possibilities or just the official story?
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    you could have found the explanation - just back up in the thread. One of the earlier posts linked to a conspiracy-fomenting page that had these lines:

    "ISIS is now a full creation of the Western mainstream media, CIA, Mossad and allies...."
    then, anticipating that the author of this might not be widely believed:
    ". ... Another example of how anyone who opposes the U.S. Empire and the Zionist globalists is accused of being a "conspiracy theorist" across the board. Look for this pattern and question it. "

    At which point we took a turn toward "what the hell is a global Zionist anyway?" and it went downhill (and off-topic) from there. I helped with that, sorry....
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  13. TopTop #70
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    you could have found the explanation - just back up in the thread. One of the earlier posts linked to a conspiracy-fomenting page that had these lines: "ISIS is now a full creation of the Western mainstream media, CIA, Mossad and allies...." then, anticipating that the author of this might not be widely believed:

    ". ... Another example of how anyone who opposes the U.S. Empire and the Zionist globalists is accused of being a "conspiracy theorist" across the board. Look for this pattern and question it. "

    At which point we took a turn toward "what the hell is a global Zionist anyway?" and it went downhill (and off-topic) from there. I helped with that, sorry....
    Sorry, Barry, knock this out, but I can't believe people are reading that article and not understanding all of the aged code words, and the article links to ISIS. I believe that readers are in fact doing so -- but, incredible!

    Yes, podfish, I DID see and understand the context of that deeply conspiracy-driven, anti-Semetic phrase, "Zionist globalists, "

    I was responding to you only b/c I knew you wouldn't take my post into five other different directions, Mister "Palestine isn't enough." Very funny. Not.

    Look, read the article again. It's ALL about opposing the "New World Order," which is oddly SOMEHOW never complete for these people without FIRST understanding that Jews run the world (!):

    "Bernie Suarez...has concluded that the way to defeat the New World Order is to truly be the change that you want to see. Manifesting the solution and putting truth into action is the very thing that will defeat the globalists."

    Who the hell do you think he means by the globalists? The Zionist globalists. You mean you and others didn't know the big secret that isn't even a secret anymore: Jews run the world (the deeper point is that they are to blame for everything bad due to their extreme over-entitlement)

    https://vaticanassassinsarchive.com/...0Of%20Zion.pdf

    "Anyone who opposes [the Zionist Globalists and U.S. EMPIRE - Super-Jewy U.S.] is accused of being a 'conspiracy theorist' across the board."

    That's why I launched: That whole damn article is pointedly deeply anti-Semetic, using all of the code words. Except they aren't even code words anymore.

    There are a number of conspiracy theorists on wacco - a lefty trait shared with the far right! -- I understand a few may lightly entertain the thought that the Rothchilds are highly representative, "real Jews" (!), they control everything, and somehow are in veiled cahoots with all of the other "Jews." I wish. Would any discussion of this vein ever include Qatar? Probably not. Anyhoo.
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  14. TopTop #71
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    This is my take on the whole thing, already stated near the beginning of this thread ...

    "Many people on earth believe that the globalist Zionists are hiding behind the Jews to accomplish their murders and theft of resources around the world ... if this is true then the Jews are once again victims of this agenda because it appears that this bloodshed is being done in their name, and it isn't ... most Americans will relate to this as we watch our military in constant wars which are questionable ..."

    and I thought that we were getting back to ISIS and away from Zionists? ... where is the outcry to return to the thread topic?

    and since we're off of the thread again ... you might be interested in this study ...

    https://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/0...vs-govt-dupes/
    Last edited by Barry; 09-30-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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  15. TopTop #72
    phredo's Avatar
    phredo
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    Who is trying to silence dissent or informed criticism? Not me. What have I shared that has asserted that sentiment?
    That seems to me to have been the general point of your entry. Perhaps I misunderstand you. And by linking to The New York Times op-ed, "How Israel Silences Dissent" I was more interested in showing something about Israel, although it does seem to me from your remarks that you would prefer that people do not criticize Israel or the Zionist movement.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    The Erev Rav -- no, not mere dissenters! I was remarking on how Jews and Israel suddenly appeared while in discussion of ISIL. It astounds me. No one wishes to either directly or indirectly address that.
    I know absolutely nothing about "the Erev Rav" -- this thread is the first time I have heard the expression. But I think it's appropriate to bring the subject of Israel into many conversations about the situation in the part of the world where Israel lies. And that's because I think Israel has much influence on events there, especially where the US is also involved. I think "neo-conservatives", a sort of shorthand or code word, if you will, for United Statesers with strong ties to Israel's government and its policies, have had and continue to have a strong influence on US foreign policy. I would be glad to discuss that farther if anyone cares to.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    Be honest, how does it feel when someone who is not an American criticizes our country? On points we might all well agree on! Yet it feels quite different when coming from someone who is not an American, does it not?
    Quite true. Good point. What can I say?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    But from where really does this unique quality of scorn, open hostility & freely-flung bitter contempt arise? Surely they would not feel this way about their own country, however disillusioned.
    Surely you are extrapolating greatly from anything I wrote, but perhaps you are talking about someone else's comments. As it happens, though, I do feel a great deal of scorn and contempt for many features of the US government.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    I could understand if we talked about how much money Hamas' rockets have extracted from American taxpayers by way of the need for an Iron Dome.
    I don't know what to say to that, only that the pinprick responses of Hamas are so dwarfed by the Israeli crime.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    Sorry that you feel a comparison of a people to an age/sex subset of a country is honorable or even worthy. Of course you would choose Germany! So tiresome. Or that comparing Israel to North Korea is meaningful.
    Those were examples to make a point. Of course I picked the most extreme cases I could readily think of. If I wanted to actually compare Israel to a historical case I might pick apartheid South Africa. Hopefully, in some future time we will be able to talk about "apartheid Israel" and be glad that it's no longer the case.
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  17. TopTop #73
    Glia's Avatar
    Glia
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    A reference or post to this piece may have been made elsewhere; it seems pertinent to this thread so here goes:

    Bill Moyers Essay: What We Can Learn From Lawrence of Arabia
    https://billmoyers.com/2014/06/27/le...nce-of-arabia/
    As fears grow of a widening war across the Middle East, fed by reports that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) envisions a region-wide, all controlling theocracy, we found ourselves talking about another war. The Great War – or World War I, as it would come to be called — was triggered one hundred years ago this month when an assassin shot and killed Austria’s Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo. Through a series of tangled alliances and a cascade of misunderstandings and blunders, that single act of violence brought on a bloody catastrophe. More than 37 million people were killed or wounded.

    In America, if we reflect on World War I at all, we think mostly about the battlefields and trenches of Europe and tend to forget another front in that war — against the Ottoman Empire of the Turks that dominated the Middle East. A British Army officer named T.E. Lawrence became a hero in the Arab world when he led nomadic Bedouin tribes in battle against Turkish rule. Peter O’Toole immortalized him in the epic movie, “Lawrence of Arabia.”
    You may remember the scene when, after dynamiting the Hijaz railway and looting a Turkish supply train, Lawrence is asked by an American reporter, “What, in your opinion, do these people hope to gain from this war?”

    “They hope to gain their freedom,” Lawrence replies, and when the journalist scoffs, insists, “They’re going to get it. I’m going to give it to them.”

    At war’s end, Lawrence’s vision of Arab independence was shattered when the Versailles peace conference confirmed the carving of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine into British and French spheres of influence; arbitrary boundaries drawn in the sand to satisfy the appetites of empire – Britain’s Foreign Office even called the former Ottoman lands “The Great Loot.”

    The hopeful Lawrence drew his own “peace map” of the region, one that paid closer heed to tribal allegiances and rivalries. The map could have saved the world a lot of time, trouble and treasure, one historian said, providing the region “with a far better starting point than the crude imperial carve up.” Lawrence wrote to a British major in Cairo: “I’m afraid you will be delayed a long time, cleaning up all the messes and oddments we have left behind us.”

    Since 2003, as the reckless invasion of Iraq unfolded, demand for Lawrence’s book, “Seven Pillars of Wisdom” increased eightfold. It was taught at the Pentagon and Sandhurst — Britain’s West Point — for its insights into fighting war in the Middle East. In 2010, Major Niel Smith, who had served as operations officer for the US Army and Marine Corps Counterinsurgency Center, told The Christian Science Monitor, “T.E. Lawrence has in some ways become the patron saint of the US Army advisory effort in Afghanistan and Iraq.”

    But then and now, Lawrence’s understanding of the ancient and potent jealousies of the people among whom he had lived and fought generally was ignored. In 1920, he wrote for the Times of London an unsettling and prophetic article about Iraq – then under the thumb of the British. He decried the money spent, the number of troops and loss of life, and warned that his countrymen had been led “into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information…. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows. It… may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure. We are today not far from a disaster.”

    Not for the last time in the Middle East would disaster come from the blundering ignorance and blinding arrogance of foreign intruders convinced by magical thinking of their own omnipotence and righteousness. How soon we forget. How often we repeat.
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  19. TopTop #74
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    and then there's this .... the facts, the graphs, ... read it please .... basically it states that people who are denied a peaceful existence become terrorists ... No! ... ya think?

    U.S. “War On Terror” Has INCREASED Terrorism

    Posted on October 21, 2013 by WashingtonsBlog
    Charts Show that U.S. Policy Has Increased Terror Attacks

    The National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START) Global Terrorism Database – part of a joint government-university program on terrorism - is hosted at the University of Maryland.
    START is the most comprehensive open source terrorism database, which can be viewed by journalists and civilians lacking national security clearance.
    A quick review of charts from the START database show that terrorism has increased in the last 9 years since the U.S. started its “war on terror”.

    https://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013...terrorism.html
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  21. TopTop #75
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    U.S. “War On Terror” Has INCREASED Terrorism

    A quick review of charts from the START database show that terrorism has increased in the last 9 years since the U.S. started its “war on terror”.
    absolutely true. The "War on Drugs" has been similarly successful.
    To have a war, you really do need a nation-state or reasonable facsimile as an opponent. If the apparent strategy against ISIL has any hope of working, it's that ISIL has indeed become a revolutionary government with need to maintain a military and a civilian infrastructure. Such infrastructure is what can be bombed, and what armies can be sent to destroy. You can't use a military approach at attacking an ideology, or even an organization that's more akin to a criminal group than a nation state. Several countries besides ours have been spending a lot of money recently to prove that.
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  23. TopTop #76
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    But I think it's appropriate to bring the subject of Israel into many conversations about the situation in the part of the world where Israel lies.
    Yes, they are all-powerful. And "the creation of Israel by the British have caused all of these problems." That's the subtext & full-out propaganda that is being bought into. Enjoy!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    I think "neo-conservatives", a sort of shorthand or code word, if you will, for United Statesers with strong ties to Israel's government and its policies, have had and continue to have a strong influence on US foreign policy. I would be glad to discuss that farther if anyone cares to.
    And apparently there's a problem with that. Start a new thread. Evil Israel and everything fishy going on. Why would U.S. ever support Israel. I can't imagine.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    I don't know what to say to that, only that the pinprick responses of Hamas are so dwarfed by the Israeli crime....If I wanted to actually compare Israel to a historical case I might pick apartheid South Africa. Hopefully, in some future time we will be able to talk about "apartheid Israel" and be glad that it's no longer the case.
    I'm sure you would! Wonder where "the brown Jews" of Israel who were expelled from Arab lands fit into that. Tell the West Bank "occupiers" who were ambushed and slaughtered in their home about pinprick responses. Let's have Israel return all of the land they won in wars that Palestinian leadership started by attacking Israel. Or you could set aside the propaganda momentarily and read more widely, including outside of the U.S. media, start not with opinions but w/all of the relevant, documented facts for a balanced perspective, not just shards, and engage in this balanced perspective w/critical thinking. Hamas used the concrete that was allowed into Gaza not to do anything productive but to build tunnels into Israel, one directly below a children's school. The usual kidnapping/intentional murder plan. What a way to build trust for negotiations for real change. How about examining what is motivating Hamas politically. Why they feel they were victorious. What are their actual values and beliefs? It's extremely sad how the Palestinian people are being exploited. If you want to transpose your values onto another people, let's also ask, "At what point are they going to start in on being productive for prosperity and peace instead of seeking Israel's destruction?" Follow what is going on in the U.N. etc.
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  24. TopTop #77
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Glia: View Post
    A reference or post to this piece may have been made elsewhere; it seems pertinent to this thread so here goes:

    Bill Moyers Essay: What We Can Learn From Lawrence of Arabia
    https://billmoyers.com/2014/06/27/le...nce-of-arabia/
    As fears grow of a widening war across the Middle East, fed by reports that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) envisions a region-wide, all controlling theocracy, we found ourselves talking about another war. The Great War – or World War I...

    Not for the last time in the Middle East would disaster come from the blundering ignorance and blinding arrogance of foreign intruders convinced by magical thinking of their own omnipotence and righteousness. How soon we forget. How often we repeat.
    Thank you, y'know, as a general response to the thread: can we figure out what to do about ISIL at this stage if we don't look at the reasons and causes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%...icot_Agreement

    A lot of people just don't enjoy history is all that I can figure out. Lawrence of Arabia isn't a hero to Muslims. He was in fact a spy for the British. He earned friendship and then egregiously betrayed, I think that's how they feel.

    The bottom line is they had no business being there in the first place. If people can backtrack enough to see that part.

    In my opinion, there is a wide diversity of Muslims who are similar to Germans post WWI in that there is a deep wound in the present from the loss of power and pride. In the case of Muslims, the Ottoman caliphate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah The Ottoman Empire. We can thank British imperialism. Recently, Turkish leadership has even changed.

    The Brits also sought to humiliate the Germans w/the "Treaty" of Versailles -- as a strategy to stop their militarism instead of seeking to understand the real causes behind it. A huge miscalculation from a war-weary Europe. It FULLY backfired. Fast forward... the land lost in that treaty and the impossible reparations demanded, the misery imposed were an open wound...fully informed the forces behind Naziism (Hitler was not elected to power by a majority of Germans but appointed in a highly political dance)...and disrespectful, patronizing miscalculations are how we ended up w/Israel btw - an fyi for those who hate the place.

    Again, as a response to the thread, once someone is clear that A Jewish Homeland has not caused the problems in the Middle East (but that it's true that Jews are hated for being Jews) it becomes easier to understand what is going on. Yes, land in the Middle East wasn't rightfully the Brits to give to the Zionists in the first place. But that doesn't cancel out that a small amount of land was rightfully-- not wrongly-- returned to natives stripped of their rights to be the Europeans they had become (and had been for centuries) but could be no longer. The U.S. Idiot called Bush I and II did not bomb countries to protect the Jews. U.S. citizens are easily lured and duped. What is the role of the Saudis -- their relationship to U.S.? The questions not being asked are endless. There's really no room to think when everything becomes about Israel.

    I've been watching Dr. Yasir Qadhi's video lectures if anyone wants to google him. The backstory is huge; satisfying; not "American;" and intimately relevant to today. There's no place for all of these relevant facts and this kind of analysis in the U.S media (!)

    Here is another article:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timreut...edy-and-farce/
    Last edited by dzerach; 09-30-2014 at 10:58 AM. Reason: added link to another relevant b.s. "agreement"
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  26. TopTop #78
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    We could argue about history and who did what to whom for the rest of our days ... yes, there were massive injustices and most in the MIddle East were affected ...

    but let's bring it back to today ... you say that it's not about Israel and that those seeking to blame Israel are simply anti-semitic ... and I'm sure that there's some truth in that ... I'm sure that there are those who simply do not like Israel and what it's doing right now and might possibly blame all Jews for their actions ... and I'm sure that there are those who blame America and all Americans for the actions of the American military in the region ... consequently, I'm sure that there are those who hate Americans, though we don't have a name for that ... but as an American, I feel that that hate is justified ...

    So now, present day, outside of who's wrong and who's right, put yourself in the place of almost any country on earth when facing two of the most powerful armies in the world ... Israel and America ... do you have any chance at all? ... do you have any way to protect yourself? ... is there humanitarian aide to evacuate the innocent? ...

    Here's how the world works right now, right or wrong ... when you exercise your power against innocent civilians, those abuses are seen worldwide ... right now Israel is being tried for war crimes and protesters around the world are initiating boycotts of Israeli goods ... on our own coast protesters have organized and stopped Israeli cargo ships from docking and unloading ... so at this point in their history, the Israeli government is actually hurting their own citizens and provoking anti-semiticim in the same way that the American government is provoking anti-Americanism ... you can not conduct constant military intervention around the globe without inviting fear and scorn from most countries ... this is seen as an abuse of power in spite of any justification ....

    What does this have to do with ISIS? ... if you like I can go on about Israel's role in America's foreign policy ... there are lots of factual links about this ...
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  28. TopTop #79
    phredo's Avatar
    phredo
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    [ This is the first many posts on this hot thread today.
    You can remove this thread from future digests by clicking the

    button here or below.
    - Barry
    ]

    I just got around to watching the Moyers discussion with the two anti-interventionists, for lack of a better word to describe the two. At the end Moyers says, to paraphrase, "Gee, I don't know if I should have invited you two on -- I get from both of you that there isn't anything the US can do to help create "peace on earth, goodwill toward Man" in the mid-east. And the "guy with the beard" said, to paraphrase, "Yeah, well that's the big lesson to learn." My sentiments, pretty much.

    --------------
    I really liked dzerach's last post (except for the usual "poor Israel" and "everyone hates the Jews" stuff, which I am trying to learn to discount) for all the good information. I read the Tim Reuter article in Forbes and learned a lot. I've been reading some about WWI in that region.

    One book, "Birds Without Wings" by Louis de Bernieres, is a novel set in an Anatolian town where, before the rise of Turkish nationalism, ethnic Greeks and Turks lived together peacefully, with little to distinguish the two groups. The novel traces the rising of tensions and the ultimate expulsion of the Greeks as the society more-or-less disintegrates. But alternate chapters follow the political life of Kemal Ataturk, so it's a very historical and political novel overall. Highly recommend.

    Then I recently re-read "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom", T. E. Lawrence's description of his time in Arabia. It's worth reading for the sensitive and learned descriptions of the land and people. But his overall imperialist and racist views are apparent, and, although he hopes, and tries to tilt towards, the Arabs win their independence, he makes it clear that British domination over Germany is his most important goal, and that he is willing to sacrifice the Arabs towards that goal, if necessary. So Reuter's article filled in for me the machinations leading up to the point where the book begins.

    And, finally and most recently, I read "The Lemon Tree: An Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East" by Sandy Tolan, a carefully researched history of Palestine, followed through the lives of two real people. One is a Palestinian man whose family had lived for twelve centuries in an area that became Israel in 1948, and the other a Jewish woman from Bulgaria who, as a child, emigrated with her parents to the same town and came into possession of the house previously occupied by the Palestinian's family which had been driven out by the conquering Israeli army only weeks before. The two become first acquaintances and then friends over the years, the one living in exile and becoming a lifelong struggler for the "right of return" and the other a peace activist who eventually donates the house as a school for young multi-ethnic children. It goes up to the present day, almost, and is a great story with a super amount of information. Available in the Sonoma County Library or A____n.

    I looked up Dr. Yasir Qadhi in Wikipedia and Youtube. He seems to mostly be interested in Muslim doctrine. Which talks or subjects do you find interesting, dzerach?
    Last edited by Barry; 10-01-2014 at 10:59 AM.
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  30. TopTop #80
    rossmen
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    your history is full of holes. us had far more to do with the creation of israel than the uk. your links are a scattershot of bias. zionism is a form of racism according to the un. and is is as much a creation of us as israel. both serious mistakes which have and will create decades of death and war in the cradle of civilization... you are the fear of jewish nationalists and cultural preservers; heritage, but not. the power of the melting pot. keep trying to make sense of it all, you seem to be halfway there to consciously choosing your guiding beliefs.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    Thank you, y'know, as a general response to the thread: can we figure out what to do about ISIL at this stage if we don't look at the reasons and causes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%...icot_Agreement

    A lot of people just don't enjoy history is all that I can figure out. Lawrence of Arabia isn't a hero to Muslims. He was in fact a spy for the British. He earned friendship and then egregiously betrayed, I think that's how they feel.

    The bottom line is they had no business being there in the first place. If people can backtrack enough to see that part...
    Last edited by Bella Stolz; 10-01-2014 at 11:05 AM.
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  32. TopTop #81
    phredo's Avatar
    phredo
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?


    The Debate : ISIL funded by US to break up region
    This debate is a bit dated, being from way back in July, but I thought it might be of interest to those who have never seen presstv.com, the Iranian news site, or Dr. Kevin Barrett, a Wisconsin Muslim. noliesradio.org covers his several hours a week of interviews with guests over a wide variety of interests, but his favorite subject is 9/11 conspiracy, with "the evils of Zionism" running a strong second. Here he is arguing that ISIS is a creation of "deep state" activities of the US and its allies. This debate may not be highly informative but is presented here to show points of view (that is, Iranian and Kevin Barrett -- the other debater is rather mainstream) that are not usually seen in US media.

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    In a similar vein, Robert Parry from yesterday's consortiumnews.com. (It's rather long, and you may get the drift without reading all of it.)

    Neocons’ Noses Into the Syrian Tent



    Exclusive: The neocons say the next step in President Obama’s bombing raids inside Syria must be to move from attacking the terrorist Islamic State to destroying Syria’s air force and air defenses, all the better to achieve the neocons’ long-sought “regime change,” reports Robert Parry.

    Now that President Barack Obama has begun airstrikes inside Syria against the terrorist Islamic State – with the tacit but not explicit approval of Syria’s government — Official Washington’s ever-influential neoconservatives hope they can pressure Obama into a major “mission creep,” to also attack and destroy the Syrian air force.
    Like the proverbial camel with its nose into the tent, the neocons are trying to push beyond the U.S.-led attacks on the Islamic State and other Sunni extremist groups operating in Syria into a broader “regime change” operation against the government of President Bashar al-Assad, who has been a longtime target of the neocons.

    For instance, Jackson Diehl, the deputy editorial-page editor of the neocon Washington Post, called the failure to attack Assad’s military “the hole in Obama’s strategy” and urged that Assad’s air defenses and air power be taken out by the U.S. military as a crucial step toward Assad’s ouster, even though Assad’s military has been the principal bulwark against the Islamic State and al-Qaeda’s affiliate, al-Nusra Front.
    Diehl wrote on Monday: “The problem is that ignoring Assad is likely to lead to even worse consequences. Already, the regime and its spokesmen are exulting in the U.S. bombing raids and doing their best to portray the United States as a de facto ally, while Syrians in rebel-held areas are demonstrating against the U.S. strikes because they are seen to be weakening the resistance to Assad.

    “Meanwhile, the regime appears to be stepping up its own bombing raids against the non*-extremist opposition. A failure of the United States to respond could destroy U.S. relations not only with its only on-the-ground allies in Syria but also with the Sunni nations that have joined the campaign against the Islamic State. …

    “Create a no-fly zone for Syrian aircraft over areas held by the rebels. With U.S. planes already operating in the area, this would be far simpler than it would have been before.” Of course, much of what Diehl says is untrue. The idea that a viable “moderate” rebel force exists is a fiction. A year ago, many of these “moderate” rebels – trained, funded and armed by the CIA and U.S. Arab allies – repudiated the Syrian political front that the Obama administration had cobbled together and instead embraced al-Qaeda’s al-Nusra Front.

    Obama himself – just last month in an interview with the New York Times – dismissed the notion of relying on “moderate” rebels as a “fantasy” that was “never in the cards” as a workable strategy. But it is a fantasy that the neocons and their “liberal interventionist” allies have long found useful, portraying the civil war in Syria as a black-and-white conflict between the evil Assad and the saintly “pro-democracy” rebels...

    To continue reading, go here: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/2...e-syrian-tent/
    Last edited by Bella Stolz; 10-01-2014 at 11:08 AM.
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  33. TopTop #82
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    on our own coast protesters have organized and stopped Israeli cargo ships from docking and unloading
    The "successful" blocking of the private Israeli ZIM only happened at the Port of Oakland (no other port) and had everything to do with that union and that port and nothing to do with the "200 angry protestors" or their cause. Can you imagine The Port of Oakland genuinely being forced by 200 people to interrupt their business to that extent? Dang, just think of the potential for other situations if "200 angry protestors" can easily accomplish that! We should all be encouraged.

    You know, call the cops, get them out of here. That's how that goes.

    No, it was a case of sheltered liberals being used as tools. A few radicals in ILWU Local 10 saw fit to meet some unrelated objectives w/port management by refusing to work. ILWU Local 10 blocked Zim for their own self-defeating purposes unrelated to the ZIM.

    Apparently in the world of ports or whatever you call it, the Port of Oakland has a reputation for weak, disorganized management. They certainly did not protect their business. Which is a little frightening since they also run the Oakland International Airport.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    What does this have to do with ISIS?
    Indeed. I already tied it in. Don't worry; done.
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  34. TopTop #83
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    sorry, but you should look again ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/28/pro-palestine-protesters-israeli-cargo-ship-oakland

    https://revolution-news.com/israeli-...acoma-seattle/

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    The "successful" blocking of the private Israeli ZIM only happened at the Port of Oakland (no other port) and had everything to do with that union and that port and nothing to do with the "200 angry protestors" or their cause. Can you imagine The Port of Oakland genuinely being forced by 200 people to interrupt their business to that extent? ...
    Last edited by Bella Stolz; 10-01-2014 at 11:09 AM.
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  36. TopTop #84
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    ..."Birds Without Wings" by Louis de Bernieres...
    "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom", T. E. Lawrence's description of his time in Arabia....
    "The Lemon Tree: An Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East" by Sandy Tolan...
    Your book recommendations (and descriptions) sound very interesting. Intriguing and worthwhile - thank you.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by phredo: View Post
    I looked up Dr. Yasir Qadhi in Wikipedia and Youtube. He seems to mostly be interested in Muslim doctrine. Which talks or subjects do you find interesting, dzerach?
    Yes, he's a learned, deeply religious man. He's both a cleric and a scholar. I'm impressed with his ability to teach. He's based in Memphis and this is his organization https://muslimmatters.org/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ammaar_Yasir_Qadhi

    I recommend the first video, the Part One:
    "1914:The Shaping of the Modern Muslim World (Balfour, Sykes-Picot,T.E. Lawrence, Sherif of Makkah, Al Saud, and more)" Part 1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh9awD5KwNY

    Part Two:
    1914: The Shaping of the Modern Muslim World Part 2 - Yasir Qadhi & Nabil Bayakli
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQjDeRcBbzo

    I haven't viewed these:
    "Latest khutbah Extremism in Islam: From Kharijism to ISIS"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sixliGz9zhI
    and
    "The Modern Jihadists: Khawarij or Mujahideen? ~ Dr. Yasir Qadhi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lezIO8yg2r4
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  38. TopTop #85
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    It's only successful at the Port of Oakland. I explained why.
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  39. TopTop #86
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    "The action originated in Oakland, California, which set a high bar for others to follow. Protestors there successfully prevented the unloading of the Zim Piraeus container shipfor nearly four full days.But other cities’ more modest demonstrations were nevertheless successful in temporarily delaying the Zim ships from unloading, costing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, building momentum and signalling widespread support for such actions.

    After Zim Piraeus departed Oakland on 20 August, two different Zim container ships were scheduled to dock in Tacoma and Seattle, Washington and in Long Beach, California. Weeks earlier, organizers in Oakland had reached out to Palestine solidarity groups in those cities to plan a coordinated shut-out of Zim cargo ships along the West Coast.

    In Tacoma, the Zim Chicago was supposed to arrive at port on 18 August but was delayed from offloading until 23 August — which local organizer Nada Elia describes as a victory for the Northwest Block the Boat Coalition. "

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs...ampaign=buffer


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    It's only successful at the Port of Oakland. I explained why.
    Last edited by Bella Stolz; 10-01-2014 at 11:10 AM.
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  41. TopTop #87
    dzerach's Avatar
    dzerach
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    It's another thread. Why aren't you starting another thread instead of continuing to dump into this one?

    The action is called Block the Boat, not Delay the Boat. It means to fully prevent the boat from unloading its cargo. Who do you think is being harmed by the cost of a delay? The Port of Oakland and mayoral candidates are engaging the usual drink of dysfunctional Norcal politics we are all familiar with.

    What do you think they are trying to accomplish? Please read about it if you are interested. Attempting to block commerce (and succeeding in the Bay Area) is asinine & only hurts California's reputation (for many obvious economic and political reasons that will not be easily picked up on by many readers on wacco even when someone takes the time and energy to engage). Start a new thread and enjoy yourselves.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    "The action originated in Oakland, California, which set a high bar for others to follow. Protestors there successfully prevented the unloading of the Zim Piraeus container shipfor nearly four full days.But other cities’ more modest demonstrations were nevertheless successful in temporarily delaying the Zim ships from unloading, costing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, building momentum and signalling widespread support for such actions.
    After Zim Piraeus departed Oakland on 20 August, two different Zim container ships were scheduled to dock in Tacoma and Seattle, Washington and in Long Beach, California. Weeks earlier, organizers in Oakland had reached out to Palestine solidarity groups in those cities to plan a coordinated shut-out of Zim cargo ships along the West Coast.
    In Tacoma, the Zim Chicago was supposed to arrive at port on 18 August but was delayed from offloading until 23 August — which local organizer Nada Elia describes as a victory for the Northwest Block the Boat Coalition. "

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs...ampaign=buffer
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  42. TopTop #88
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    the point was that armed aggression against innocent people can be counter-productive and that those countries that engage in it could be compromised by global protest ...

    it is you derailing this thread at the moment by arguing with facts and bringing in the economic consequences of boycotting protests ...


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    It's another thread. Why aren't you starting another thread instead of continuing to dump into this one?

    The action is called Block the Boat, not Delay the Boat. It means to fully prevent the boat from unloading its cargo. Who do you think is being harmed by the cost of a delay? The Port of Oakland and mayoral candidates are engaging the usual drink of dysfunctional Norcal politics we are all familiar with.

    What do you think they are trying to accomplish? Please read about it if you are interested. Attempting to block commerce (and succeeding in the Bay Area) is asinine & only hurts California's reputation (for many obvious economic and political reasons that will not be easily picked up on by many readers on wacco even when someone takes the time and energy to engage). Start a new thread and enjoy yourselves.
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  44. TopTop #89
    rossmen
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    every journey begins with a small step... boycott, divestment and sanction of israel, a rogue state we massively support is important in dealing with tribal wars important to global oil supply. you might be filling up your car with is oil. zionism claims support from a tribal religion. how insulting that those of the faith who question the dominant political paradigm are dismissed as worshipers of the golden calf. mossiest would be pissed!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dzerach: View Post
    It's another thread. Why aren't you starting another thread instead of continuing to dump into this one?

    The action is called Block the Boat, not Delay the Boat. It means to fully prevent the boat from unloading its cargo. Who do you think is being harmed by the cost of a delay? The Port of Oakland and mayoral candidates are engaging the usual drink of dysfunctional Norcal politics we are all familiar with.

    What do you think they are trying to accomplish? Please read about it if you are interested. Attempting to block commerce (and succeeding in the Bay Area) is asinine & only hurts California's reputation (for many obvious economic and political reasons that will not be easily picked up on by many readers on wacco even when someone takes the time and energy to engage). Start a new thread and enjoy yourselves.
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  45. TopTop #90
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: What to do about ISIL/ISIS?

    More of the killing citizens to protect citizens agenda ...

    House exempts Syria airstrikes from tight standards on civilian deaths



    https://news.yahoo.com/white-house-e...iacontentstory
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