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  1. TopTop #1
    Larry Robinson's Avatar
    WaccoBB Poet Laureate

    Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

    A little etymological understanding is called for. The "pol" in Sebastopol comes from the Greek word "polis", for city (as in Acropolis, Persepolis or even Indianapolis), not from "pool"(as in Liverpool), the anglo saxon word for a contained body of water or puddle. Much as those of us who grew up in the 60s, influenced by the music of such Liverpuddlians as the Beatles, would prefer this association, it is simply wrong.

    Although Sebastopol is a community that welcomes diversity in our expression we should take care that in adopting the false analogy from England we risk fouling the historical source waters of our linguistic tradition. Let us preserve our small town character!
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  3. TopTop #2
    Scott McKeown's Avatar
    Scott McKeown
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson: View Post
    While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

    A little etymological understanding is called for. The "pol" in Sebastopol comes from the Greek word "polis", for city (as in Acropolis, Persepolis or even Indianapolis), not from "pool"(as in Liverpool), the anglo saxon word for a contained body of water or puddle. Much as those of us who grew up in the 60s, influenced by the music of such Liverpuddlians as the Beatles, would prefer this association, it is simply wrong.

    Although Sebastopol is a community that welcomes diversity in our expression we should take care that in adopting the false analogy from England we risk fouling the historical source waters of our linguistic tradition. Let us preserve our small town character!

    Puddlian or Polian? Confirming Larry's assertion for an etymological understanding of the name Sebastopol, the following is an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry about the Ukrainian City of Sevastopol, which I understand was an inspiration for the naming our town. Sebastopol means "venerable city".

    Scott

    Origin


    The name of Sevastopolis (Modern Greek: Σεβαστούπολη, Sevastoupoli, old-fashioned Σεβαστούπολις, Sevastoupolis), or currently Sevastopol, was originally chosen in the same etymological trend as other cities in the Crimean peninsula that was intended to reflect its ancient Greek origins. It is a compound of two Greek nouns, σεβαστός (sebastós, Modern sevastós) ('venerable') and πόλις (pólis) ('city'). Σεβαστός is the traditional Greek translation of the honourable Roman title Augustus ('venerable'), originally given to the first emperor of the Roman Empire, G. Julius Caesar Octavianus and later awarded as a title to his successors.
    Despite its Greek origin, the name is not old. The city was probably named after the Empress ("Augusta") Catherine II of Russia who founded Sevastopol in 1783. She visited the city in 1787 accompanied by Joseph II, the Emperor of Austria, and other foreign dignitaries.
    In the west of the city, there are well-preserved ruins of an ancient Greek port city of Chersonesos, founded in the 5th[citation needed] (or 4th) century BCE. The name means "peninsula" reflecting its location and is not related to the ancient Greek name for the Crimean Peninsula, Chersonēsos Taurikē ("the Taurian Peninsula").

    Orthography and pronunciation of the name

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  5. TopTop #3
    rossmen
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    ya can take your high minded lingo and shove it. the town was named for a bar fight. jus cuz the war at the time was imperial folly in the crimea, brit lordy wanna bees charging into certain death for a greek named town, don't erase the fact it was analy township fore that. jasper was irish, a drinker and a gambler, won big and lost bigger. we're all in the pool for sure, so take the pol out your ass fore you git smacked agin!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson: View Post
    While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 11-21-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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  7. TopTop #4
    Helen Shane's Avatar
    Helen Shane
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Ya gotta luvit!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    ya can take your high minded lingo and shove it. the town was named for a bar fight. jus cuz the war at the time was imperial folly in the crimea, brit lordy wanna bees charging into certain death for a greek named town, don't erase the fact it was analy township fore that. jasper was irish, a drinker and a gambler, won big and lost bigger. we're all in the pool for sure, so take the pol out your ass fore you git smacked agin!
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  8. TopTop #5
    Scott McKeown's Avatar
    Scott McKeown
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson: View Post
    While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    ya can take your high minded lingo and shove it. the town was named for a bar fight. jus cuz the war at the time was imperial folly in the crimea, brit lordy wanna bees charging into certain death for a greek named town, don't erase the fact it was analy township fore that. jasper was irish, a drinker and a gambler, won big and lost bigger. we're all in the pool for sure, so take the pol out your ass fore you git smacked agin!
    Hmmm....apparently Larry has pointed out (and re-opened?) a very old wound that I had no idea existed to this day in our little West County town. As a person of Irish descent myself I'm intrigued. Again from Wikipedia about the Crimean War:

    Russia and the Ottoman Empire went to war in October 1853 over Russia's rights to protect Orthodox Christians. Russia gained the upper hand after destroying the Ottoman fleet at the Black Sea port of Sinope; to stop Russia's conquest France and Britain entered in March 1854. Most of the fighting took place for control of the Black Sea, with land battles on the Crimean peninsula in southern Russia. The Russians held their great fortress at Sevastopol for over a year. After it fell, peace became possible, and was arranged at Paris in March 1856. The religion issue had already been resolved. The main results were that the Black Sea was neutralised—Russia would not have any warships there—and the two provinces of Wallachia and Moldavia became largely independent under nominal Ottoman rule.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    the town was named for a bar fight.
    Does anybody with knowledge of old local history care to elaborate on this?

    Scott
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  10. TopTop #6
    Scott McKeown's Avatar
    Scott McKeown
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    On further Google research, here is something published last year in the Press Democrat about the origin of the naming of the town of Sebastopol. Apparently there may be more to this. At one point Yountville was also named Sebastopol. And then there's the whole Jasper O'Ferrell / Analy Township thing.

    Scott


    https://sebastopol.towns.pressdemocrat.com/2012/08/news/how-sebastopol-got-its-name/#postcomment

    How Sebastopol got its name
    Monday, August 6th, 2012 | Posted by
    By ARTHUR DAWSON / Towns Columnist

    Sebastopol’s original name was “Pine Grove.” In 1855, the town consisted of a few buildings that had sprung up where the trail running west from Santa Rosa crossed the one coming north from Petaluma. One of the first structures was a store owned by middle-aged immigrant John Dougherty.

    Halfway around the globe, another crossroad sits at the tip of the Crimean Peninsula, where routes across the Black Sea meet. The Russians built a fortified port there in 1783 and called it “Sebastopol.”

    During the Crimean War, British and French forces laid siege to Sebastopol. It took months, traveling by telegraph, ship and overland, for news to reach Pine Grove.

    One day in Pine Grove, men named Stevens and Hibbs got into a fistfight. Hibbs sought refuge inside Dougherty’s store. Stevens tried to follow, but Dougherty wouldn’t let him. Stevens paced the road outside for hours while Dougherty kept an eye on him. Eventually Stevens left in defeat.

    To the crowd that gathered, eager to see a fight, this was disappointing. They nicknamed Dougherty’s store, “Hibb’s Sebastopol.” When it came time to name the post office (Pine Grove was too common), someone suggested “Sebastopol.”

    The town has come a long way from such beginnings. A declared “Nuclear Free Zone,” Sebastopol has sister cities in distant countries and hosts a National Peace Site at Ragle Ranch Park. Created by activists from around the world, the site features a pole reading “May Peace Prevail on Earth” in eight languages.

    If anything, Sebastopol today seems inspired not by sieges and fistfights, but by peace and the idea of harmony among nations.

    Arthur Dawson is a Glen Ellen-based historical ecologist. You can reach him at [email protected].
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  12. TopTop #7
    rossmen
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    a bit about o'farrell can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_O%27Farrell, and the really interesting stories are for the true collector. he was a one to raise a toast too... the true name of this crossroads village i have somewhere, its pomo you know, on the trail north/south from the great bay to the river and east/west from the tulle grass to the small bay. by the time of the barfight the natives were laying low, first terrorized by mission slave raiders then slaughtered by us invaders.

    there is a difference of story about how the fight went down. all agree it started in the saloon and spilled out to the street, but did all come out to watch fisticuffs at the crossroads or one party take refuge in the hardware/drygoods store while the other demanded they come out? we do know that someones comment, "it looks like sevastopol around here!" sparked imagination to rename this place. how was the last syllable pronounced? probably with diversity.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-23-2013 at 05:51 PM.
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  14. TopTop #8
    Helen Shane's Avatar
    Helen Shane
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Somehow I thought that at some point the name of the town was Analy, after a place in Scotland that Jasper O'Farrell came from or near. Anyone?
    Last edited by Barry; 11-23-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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  16. TopTop #9
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    how was the last syllable pronounced? probably with diversity.
    A webpage on how to pronounce "Sebastopol" gave the last syllable as "pall". However, when I specified "Sebastopol, CA", the two pages I checked gave it as "pole", which is how I've always pronounced it. I guess the "pall" pronunciation may be correct for the Russian Sebastopol. What has always sounded sorta dumb to me is when folks pronounce it "pool", which sure can't be derived from the spelling by any pronunciation rules I've ever heard of. I reckon that's just another sign that we're living in the post-literate age.
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  18. TopTop #10
    Shepherd's Avatar
    Shepherd
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    There is certainly some truth in what my friend Larry says below. However, I still prefer Sebastopuddlians, as did the Press Democrat reporter and as do many of the rest of us who live here. Some, but not all of my reasons follow:

    1. Language evolves, especially from British English into American English.

    2. I like how Sebastopuddlians sounds. It brings a smile to my face to identify myself that way, which I will continue to do, in spite of the fear that it is "inflammatory" and divides the community. I honor, respect, and in some cases adore those who prefer "Sebastopolians." I prefer both/and rather than a false either/or.

    3. I liked puddles, which we recently had, and which Sebastopuddlians evokes. Yea! I am not as much into poles.

    4. As a child, I remember enjoying playing with language. It was fun, and I plan to continue with such play. A little bit of fire is not so bad, so I plan to flame on.

    5. Rules are made partly to be broken, especially by contrarians. Stirring things up is our birthright. By the way, lets remember, when we call ourselves "Americans," that we are only one version described by that word. Many Latin Americans object to the use of "American" to refer to only people in the United States. They are also Americans. A more precise term--for those who want such precision in language--would be that we are North Americans; there are Central Americans and South Americans. (Sorry to go off on a language tangent.)

    Beyond dualistic either/or thinking, there is dialectical both/and thinking. Beyond the polarizing right/wrong, there is right/right thinking, as my indigenous Hawaiian teacher Manu Meyer taught me. So Larry is certainly right, and the Press Democrat reporter and myself may also be right, as well as others of us.

    Your "simply wrong," once again, friend Shepherd.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson: View Post
    While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

    A little etymological understanding is called for. The "pol" in Sebastopol comes from the Greek word "polis", for city (as in Acropolis, Persepolis or even Indianapolis), not from "pool"(as in Liverpool), the anglo saxon word for a contained body of water or puddle. Much as those of us who grew up in the 60s, influenced by the music of such Liverpuddlians as the Beatles, would prefer this association, it is simply wrong.

    Although Sebastopol is a community that welcomes diversity in our expression we should take care that in adopting the false analogy from England we risk fouling the historical source waters of our linguistic tradition. Let us preserve our small town character!
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  20. TopTop #11
    Helen Shane's Avatar
    Helen Shane
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Shepherd is simply right, friend Larry. Puddles are an endangered specie(s); as Sebastopuddlians, it is our duty, nay destiny, to protect, defend and enhance them whenever and wherever possible. Especially now, as they are so rare.
    I also like the way "pud" sounds. Every linguist knows that a sound ending in a hard consonant, such as "d", is more emphatic, more powerful, than one ending in the soft "l".
    Additionally, I love puddles; as a youth in the last century I went out of my way not to circumnavigate but to join them, with or without rain boots on, being careful all the while not to splash them out of existence.

    So there.

    Last edited by Barry; 11-23-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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  22. TopTop #12
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Helen Shane: View Post
    I also like the way "pud" sounds. Every linguist knows that a sound ending in a hard consonant, such as "d", is more emphatic, more powerful, than one ending in the soft "l".
    So, it's "Sebastopud"?

    From an online slang dictionary:
    pud Noun. The penis, or genitals. See 'pound one's pud'.
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  23. TopTop #13
    Larry Robinson's Avatar
    WaccoBB Poet Laureate

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    All seriousness aside, I agree that language benefits from play. However, by severing an historical etymological lineage, we diminish linguistic diversity and our lose connection to the deep roots of culture. Of the 6000 to 7000 languages in the world, linguists warn that between 50% and 90% are at risk of extinction by the end of this century.

    Linguistic diversity is as vital to a healthy world community as biological diversity is to a healthy ecosystem.
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  25. TopTop #14

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Name:  barkHouse.jpg
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    I'd like to see our lovely town revert to the name it had when it was a peaceful Pomo Village: Batikletcawi.

    Batikletcawi means where elderberries grow, far more auspicious than a moniker adopted after a bar fight during the Crimean war.

    We pride ourselves on moving toward sustainability, so why not restore the name used by people who were truly and profoundly sustainable here for thousands of years?
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  26. TopTop #15
    Shepherd's Avatar
    Shepherd
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    I like Sandy's idea, as well as her painting. We live in an area historically famous for the growth of berries. The peaceful Pomo named our lovely town after berries, and then in the l920s it was apparently the most productive county in the nation when it came to berries. I understand that there were many berry co-ops back then and companion planting of berries among fruit trees. Since grapes are a kind of berry, it is currently the most lucrative berry county in the United States.

    One language change that I want to highly criticize is the transformation of the natural "Redwood Empire" into the commercial "Wine Country."

    Your Sebastopuddlian, berry-growing friend Shepherd
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  28. TopTop #16
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    "pool" is how it was pronounced 60 years ago when i first heard it....back when Guerneville was given an extra syllable in the middle: "Grrneeville".

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    A webpage on how to pronounce "Sebastopol" gave the last syllable as "pall". However, when I specified "Sebastopol, CA", the two pages I checked gave it as "pole", which is how I've always pronounced it. I guess the "pall" pronunciation may be correct for the Russian Sebastopol. What has always sounded sorta dumb to me is when folks pronounce it "pool", which sure can't be derived from the spelling by any pronunciation rules I've ever heard of. I reckon that's just another sign that we're living in the post-literate age.
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  30. TopTop #17
    rossmen
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    my fav pronunciation is seebasstoepull for its sheer headscratching humor. a town, named during a bar fight, during a war, best known by a poem, the charge of the light brigade? wacco is a faint ecco hear in westsoco.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-24-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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  31. TopTop #18
    rossmen
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    maybe it could be added to the welcome signs, with pomo approval.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-24-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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  33. TopTop #19
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    best known by a poem...
    What would that be?

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  34. TopTop #20
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    "Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???"

    How about Sebastopolacks? Think of all the good jokes we could come up with!
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  35. TopTop #21
    Helen Shane's Avatar
    Helen Shane
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Reeealy Dixon, don't you think we have enough on our wacky wacco plates without borrowing trouble? As to changing the name from Sebastopol to something else, given my three Russian grandparents, I am very fond of the name Sebastopol and would like to keep it that.

    Back to polians or pudlians. Can we stick to that and simply do a straw poll on how we citizens of west county wish to be known? In addition to all my foregoing reasons to want to vote for puds, rather than pols, I'd sooner be thought of as a genderless pud rather than a pol, as i poitician. Now, isn't that reason enuf. May not be purty, but it is substantive.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    "Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???"

    How about Sebastopolacks? Think of all the good jokes we could come up with!
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  37. TopTop #22

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Good idea. And I appreciate your adding, "with Pomo approval." Those small steps of respect are so vital.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    maybe it could be added to the welcome signs, with pomo approval.
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  38. TopTop #23
    applefan's Avatar
    applefan
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Please lets stand up for Redwood Empire rather than Wine Country. Grapes, and wine, come and go. Redwoods are here forever.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd: View Post
    One language change that I want to highly criticize is the transformation of the natural "Redwood Empire" into the commercial "Wine Country."

    Your Sebastopuddlian, berry-growing friend Shepherd
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  40. TopTop #24

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Sebastopals

    Sebastopeople

    Sebastopods

    Sebastofools

    Sebastopeeps

    Sebastopoodles

    Sebastopots

    Sebastofoodies


    This is fun but I’ll stop there....
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  42. TopTop #25
    Glia's Avatar
    Glia
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    How about "Sebastards"? Better to be illegitimate than a pud/putz?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    So, it's "Sebastopud"?

    From an online slang dictionary:
    pud Noun. The penis, or genitals. See 'pound one's pud'.
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  44. TopTop #26
    Victoria Street's Avatar
    Victoria Street
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???



    How about uber chic Sebastopolitans? From where else but our fair city of Sebastopolis!
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  46. TopTop #27
    Shepherd's Avatar
    Shepherd
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Sebastopuddlian birds, leaves, rain dances & bagged leaves

    Little birds, big birds, soaring birds, ground birds—I see them out the large window in my redwood cabin in the trees, the air, and sometimes frolicking in the puddles. They remind me to play more and enjoy life.

    Yes, I think of them as puddle-paddling Sebastopuddlian birds. You can call them Sebastopolian birds, if you like, but it is not as endearing, in my opinion.

    Some of them will soon be flying away to the South, migrating. I will miss them. I do get irritated by the woodpecker who keeps drilling holes in my cabin. And those predatory jays, trying to dominate. But it is all good. It is all good, as well as miraculous. You are all good, even those of you who think I am so “wrong.”

    While recently playing at the dog park with my companion, a Catahoula leopard hound--whom some call the Louisiana swamp dog--a poodle came up. Her owner explained that poodle is German for puddle, which I consider another good reason for my self-identity as a Sebastopuddlian. I will not label you “wrong,” “inflammatory,” “divisive” or anything else negative if you self-identity as a Sebastopolian. May we live in peace, with a sense of humor.

    By the way, if any of you have bagged leaves, I can come pick them up around Sebastopol and Cotati. I can even provide you bags. I use them for mulch on my boysenberry crop. I can also use manure, wood chips, wool, grass clips, and other organic matter free of twigs and branches. Since I need to then unbag them, I do not have the energy to put them into bags.

    May the puddles soon return, or we will have a worse water shortage. I have been doing a Sebastopuddlian rain dance, which I hope works. I hope that you “poles” out there find ways to honor our needed puddles. :)

    Let a thousand Sebastop......live--dialectical both/and, rather than dogmatic either/or.
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  48. TopTop #28
    Glia's Avatar
    Glia
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Excellent! And Sebastapoliticos lean to the left...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street: View Post

    How about uber chic Sebastopolitans? From where else but our fair city of Sebastopolis!
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  49. TopTop #29
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    best known by a poem...
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    What would that be?
    It's a little piece of writing with fancy wording, sometimes rhyming.
    Anything else I can clear up for you?
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  51. TopTop #30

    Re: Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

    I say it different ways at different times, depending on my mood. I've always liked the 'pool' sound the best... and I just have to laugh when I use it and get the odd looks
    ...and yes, I admit to using 'Frisco' on occasion, just for fun

    Tom

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    "pool" is how it was pronounced 60 years ago when i first heard it....back when Guerneville was given an extra syllable in the middle: "Grrneeville".
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