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  1. TopTop #1
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?


    From Barry:


    Efren's arraignment is set for this Friday, Aug 30th. I'm sure it is no accident that this is the day before the Labor Day weekend, a great time to bury bad news. No doubt that this was the work of Efren's lawyer, but was
    agreed to by the prosecutor, Cody Hunt, a Napa County deputy district attorney handling the case. The fishiness begins...

    As I wrote earlier today in the Efren Returns! Now what about recall? thread, "My hope is that [Efren] will plead guilty to the misdemeanor of prowlingand that the felony burglary charges be dropped (he didn't "enter") so that he, the victim and the county can move forward."

    Check out those legal definition links. They are surprisingly comprehensible!

    I stand by my quote above. Sebastacat replied, copied below, raising doubt about whether he "Entered".

    I'm completely fine if a plea bargain is reached for admitting guilt of a the misdemeanor of prowling, which it seems clear he was guilty of, and not being charged for burglary.

    Regarding punishment, I'm fine with a relatively light sentence, as he has already be been punished quite enough. I'd like to see some required community service, perhaps speaking out about the dangers of alcohol, to both kids and the general public.

    What do you think should happen at the arraignment?
    Did he commit burglary (based on the news reports; ie did he "Enter")?
    What should the punishment be?


    Here's Sebastacat's reply to me earlier post:



    From Sebastacat:


    I wish to clear up something in a previous post made in response to mine.

    From the Web site of the Law Offices of Hinkle, Jachimowicz, Pointer & Emanuel comes the following
    information with respect to the definition of the crime of "Burglary":

    "However a burglar breaks into a structure, they must also enter the structure in order to satisfy this element. The entry can be minimal; the burglar doesn't have to actually walk into a building in order to commit a burglary. Sticking a hand through a window counts as an entry sufficient to support a charge of burglary.

    "It is also important to note that the entry has to occur without the consent of the person occupying the property."

    I hope that this clears up the definition of the crime of "burglary."
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  3. TopTop #2
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    And I'll stand by mine.

    Once his hand passed the window line, he entered.

    And let's not forget about "the rustling blinds."

    Also, what you have cited here is the relevant statutory law.

    But....let's not forget about the case law whereby the law has been interpreted.

    You can't cite that here since that would be too voluminous to include!
    Last edited by sebastacat; 08-27-2013 at 08:28 PM. Reason: addition
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  5. TopTop #3

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    We really have nothing to say about how the system will adjudicate this case. That is totally up to the prosecutor, Lawyers, and Judge... and possibly a Jury if it goes there. We are just the peanut gallery.
    Kinda like reading about ancient Rome. : ))

    We will all find out more in a few days when the glacially slow hand of justice sticks it's thumb up or down while blindfolded. Isn't it exciting?!
    Tom

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat: View Post
    And I'll stand by mine.

    Once his hand passed the window line, he entered.

    And let's not forget about "the rustling blinds."

    Also, what you have cited here is the relevant statutory law.

    But....let's not forget about the case law whereby the law has been interpreted.

    You can't cite that here since that would be too voluminous to include!
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  6. TopTop #4
    Dorothy Friberg's Avatar
    Dorothy Friberg
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Well, I can guarantee YOU will be dismissed from the jury pool.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat: View Post
    And I'll stand by mine.

    Once his hand passed the window line, he entered.

    And let's not forget about "the rustling blinds."

    Also, what you have cited here is the relevant statutory law.

    But....let's not forget about the case law whereby the law has been interpreted.

    You can't cite that here since that would be too voluminous to include!
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  8. TopTop #5
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    And what makes YOU so sure?

    .....
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  10. TopTop #6
    danargraves's Avatar
    danargraves
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    As far as burglary charges, I am sure Chris Adrian will twist, turn and dissect the law to his own best interest as it is what a lawyer like him will do for the type of clients he represents. What about prowling, lewd behavior in public and most despicable of all sexual assault. Remember that Efren just didn't get to her at the time before the cops arrived. Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it. I would ask that anyone going to Fridays meeting bring that up to the board of supervisors.
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  12. TopTop #7
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    [I have moved my comments posted here earlier about this next delay of charging Efren to the new Carrillo Delays Until October 11 thread]

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by danargraves: View Post
    Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it.
    I have a different point of view. Efren is a young man, no doubt suffering from "testosterone poisoning". It's an affliction shared by most of the gender at some point. It's one thing to have the urge and desire, it's another thing to act on it. Alcohol can anesthetize the "superego", allowing the "id" with its baser desires to come through.

    I also note that Freud postulated that the id also contains a "death drive" which seems to also have been operative.
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  14. TopTop #8
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    I sorta think that almost all men have "testosterone poisoning" (or the compulsion to propagate) most of their adult lives. It's called "thinking with your dick," and alcohol can certainly remove some of the restraints which keep some men from acting on the urges.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    I have a different point of view. Efren is a young man, no doubt suffering from "testosterone poisoning". It's an affliction shared by most of the gender at some point. It's one thing to have the urge and desire, it's another thing to act on it. Alcohol can anesthetize the "superego", allowing the "id" with its baser desires to come through.

    I also note that Freud postulated that the id also contains a "death drive" which seems to also have been operative.
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  16. TopTop #9
    american dream's Avatar
    american dream
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by danargraves: View Post
    As far as burglary charges, I am sure Chris Adrian will twist, turn and dissect the law to his own best interest as it is what a lawyer like him will do for the type of clients he represents. What about prowling, lewd behavior in public and most despicable of all sexual assault. Remember that Efren just didn't get to her at the time before the cops arrived. Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it. I would ask that anyone going to Fridays meeting bring that up to the board of supervisors.
    The increasing malice in this thread is disturbing. I have personally seen fairness, kindness, and concerned thoughtfulness from Chris Andrian over an extended period of time.
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  18. TopTop #10
    DreadTori's Avatar
    DreadTori
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    I would like to see Efren go through a restorative justice process where he must face his victim, hear exactly how he impacted her and her loved ones, as well as how he impacted law enforcement personnel and the community at large. The entire group, including Efren, could then agree on the best ways for Efren to make sincere amends to all who were affected, not just to the justice "system" or "the law" by having a judge decide what his punishment is.

    Punishment doesn't work, if it did no one would commit crimes anymore.

    Efren needs to deeply understand how he affected others with his behavior whether he was under the influence or not. That is the only way he can make REAL change. There needs to be ways for him to change so he doesn't make these kind of stupid choices again; ongoing participation in addiction treatment, perhaps 12 step meetings, counseling, mentoring, sexual harassment and violence against women education; all under supervision.

    He is a young adult from a wonderful family and while I don't always agree with the decisions he makes, he's taken to this super responsible position with commitment and passion. He made a very sincere and heartfelt apology and admittance of guilt at his first board meeting and that is decidedly rare in our society. (Yes, he didn't do it right away, assuredly at the behest of his attorney, but that's the way our system is set up-it's adversarial to the nth degree and does not support people being accountable for what they do. It doesn't help to blame that on Chris Andrian -he's just doing his job within the parameters he is allowed) Efren deserves our forgiveness and support so he can give even more to his community. Punishing him by making him lose his job, sending him to jail, and stigmatizing him as irredeemable will punish the community as well.

    We also need to embrace the victim, support her as much as possible, find ways for her to feel safe again in her own home. This kind of experience can scar a person for life, even though he never got in the house or touched her. I've already seen evidence of blaming her for what Efren did, which is another way to re-victimize her. She would not be forced to participate in a restorative process; there are many ways that she could share how she was harmed by his behavior without meeting him face to face, although that is the most effective.

    I too am disturbed by the increasing malice in this thread as well as the letters to the editors in both the Press Democrat and the Bohemian. We're supposedly a progressive area yet I continuously see people demanding revenge and spouting hatred. Our culture is not going to change to the one we want unless we each make the choice to stop judging and rushing to demands for punishment and vengeance.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by american dream: View Post
    The increasing malice in this thread is disturbing. I have personally seen fairness, kindness, and concerned thoughtfulness from Chris Andrian over an extended period of time.
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  20. TopTop #11
    rbulwa's Avatar
    rbulwa
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    I have watched this and similar threads here with chagrin, with many gross misconceptions and misinformation. As a retired deputy probation officer I have some knowledge about how the system works. First of all, @danagraves, if you were in trouble Chris Andrian would be one of the lawyer's best equipped to defend you fairly. The self-interest he has is in representing his client's best interest. That is his job, what is what he is paid to do, and he is good at it. For your information, in an adversarial court system that is how it works. And yes, all the clients he represents have something in common, they have been accused of a crime. Of course, unless their case is taken on pro per, they must also have enough money to afford his top shelf fees. Remember, all of us have a right to the best defense available when accused of any crime, whether it be from a high priced attorney or a dedicated and overworked public defender.

    Secondly, though not necessarily implied by your particular post, all the conjecture in the world does not make evidence that will be admissible in a court of law. A felony must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Was there indeed a breach in the window screen, can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, since there were no witnesses, that a specific crime occurred and that Efren Carrillo was the perpetrator? Were there fingerprints? Did a hand go through the screen and actually enter the interior? Charges are filed in the form of a complaint. The next step is either a preliminary hearing or Grand Jury hearing where the prosecutor will need to prove: if there is enough probable cause to believe that a crime was committed; and if so, is there enough probable cause to believe that the defendant is the person who committed the crime. What results if both these are found to be true, is either an indictment or what is called an "information." It is quite common for defendants to either waive the preliminary hearing or to call no witnesses at the prelim, for strategic reasons.

    At this point that both the defense and the prosecution are entitled to discovery where all the documents related the police investigation (police reports) and the defenses own investigation (such as depositions) will be shared. It is quite possible that at the present stage, the defendant and his lawyer have not viewed what the prosecution has.

    Even if the defendant is "held to answer" at the prelim under this lower standard, any trial must prove the same accusations "beyond a reasonable doubt." So, in the end it will not be what Mr. Carrillo did, but what can be proven unanimously to a jury. Prosecutors do not like to lose any more than defense attorneys, though prosecutors commonly overcharge so that a lesser and included offense can be the result of a "plea bargain." But the bottom line is, prosecutors do not like to present cases which they know they cannot prove.

    If misdemeanor charges are entered, these crimes, by law, must have been witnessed, either by the arresting officer or a private citizen (such as the alleged victim). So, if there is to be any misdemeanor conviction in this case, it will likely be the result of a plea bargain, but only after the felony accusation passes the prelim stage and the prosecutor believes he/she can make a case "beyond a reasonable doubt."

    The most likely result in this case, considering the defendant's lack of prior criminal convictions, his remorse, and the fact that he has entered treatment, is a diversion program. That of course assumes that there is no evidence establishing more serious and provable behavior that has not yet been revealed.

    Finally, alcohol (and drugs) neither excuse nor justify criminal behavior. However, they are factors as we all know, in misguided thinking that leads to criminal behavior. Therefore a defendant's willingness to eliminate alcohol and/or drug use can be considered by a judge at sentencing, or more likely in this case, in accepting an agreement by the prosecution, the defense and the victim, that this case would best be handled through the diversion process, which will result in charges being set aside if the program is completed successfully. I would suggest that this is also the solution that best serves the safety of the citizens of this community, known for progressive and compassionate thinkers more than the angry and vindictive voices we have been hearing lately.

    An 8/29/13 article authored on the subject by Press Democrat staff writer Paul Payne is fair, well written and quite informative:

    https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...-clear-friday/

    Bob Bulwa

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by danargraves: View Post
    As far as burglary charges, I am sure Chris Adrian will twist, turn and dissect the law to his own best interest as it is what a lawyer like him will do for the type of clients he represents. What about prowling, lewd behavior in public and most despicable of all sexual assault. Remember that Efren just didn't get to her at the time before the cops arrived. Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it. I would ask that anyone going to Fridays meeting bring that up to the board of supervisors.
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  22. TopTop #12
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Thank you for your post, rbulwa. But...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rbulwa: View Post
    since there were no witnesses"?
    That's not necessarily true. Please see the first two Press Democrat articles on this subject. I believe that they did refer to the possibility that there were, indeed, witnesses to this incident.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-31-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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  24. TopTop #13
    Ernieman's Avatar
    Ernieman
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Freud? How about Darwin? This male thing has been explained by many. Bottom line is most men learn and know where their brain is located but apparently not all. I would argue for better education so the part that does symbols (brain) over comes the other parts that do hormones. No, this incident was far from 'funny' but the hormone posts give me a chuckle. Only some men are guided by the lower brain, most know the boundaries and rules even when goaded by alcohol or ego. It is a primitive response, not a Freudian response. You have to be socialized to act appropriately. The older you get, the more structured to social values one usually becomes.The vast majority of men get this. But not all. One has to be conscious (develop ego and superego awareness ( Freud) to overcome Darwin's natural influence of the wandering hormone. Apologies to Freud and Darwin.
    Ernieman
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  26. TopTop #14

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Thank you Robert for this bit of sanity!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rbulwa: View Post
    I have watched this and similar threads here with chagrin, with many gross misconceptions and misinformation. As a retired deputy probation officer ...

    An 8/29/13 article authored on the subject by Press Democrat staff writer Paul Payne is fair, well written and quite informative:

    https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...-clear-friday/

    Bob Bulwa
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  28. TopTop #15
    rossmen
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    as a retired probation officer i would hope you know better. i am sure you dealt with many without the resources of efren. did you cut them a break or just do your job? i imagine the latter since you retired. i know you know better than i how the criminal justice system works. i think you just support efren because you like his politics ;...(

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rbulwa: View Post
    I have watched this and similar threads here with chagrin, with many gross misconceptions and misinformation. As a retired deputy probation officer I have some knowledge about how the system works.
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  30. TopTop #16
    danargraves's Avatar
    danargraves
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Yes it is true that Efren is entitled to a proper defense as we all are, that is if we chose to commit such acts. We are all at choice and drunkenness is no excuse for such behavior. He is however entitled to come to his senses and get help to heal his heart. I wonder if Mr. Andrian would pull his magic if this was not a high profile case and remember many defenses are done not in the court room but elsewhere.

    Mr Bulwa suggests that I am just full of BS just because he was a deputy P.O. and that he has the best perspective on this matter as he smugly implies. His job was to be involved with criminals in a system that ignores the women in most cases. In a culture where it is still "boys will be boys". His letter is in it's essence, only states he just has some conviction legal experience. I am glad he was a PO as we need people to be such. I have been on the front lines of this kind of thing for years with providing a short term shelter for abused women, cleaning up there damaged bodies and hearts, being with there frightened children, taking them to agents of shelters, dealing with the men involved sometimes at great risk. I have also coached the same men on better behavior and to help them find the place inside themselves that created the situation in the first place. This was known and supported by local law enforcement as well. Many of these men thanked me later for being there for them to help them recover. For the record it isn't always men that are the perpetrators. There are many women who are sexual predators as well.

    As to punishment it would be great if this was handled in a tribal system as was suggested by a previous letter but that is just fantasy as we ( unfortunately) do not live that way today. Should he be let go of his job, YES! As a former employer I have experience with 2 men like that as well and what problems it cost my business. I had to fire them both. Efrin has shown himself not even to be aware of his issue with women as with his letter of contrition. It didn't even suggest his sexual behavior was a character flaw or even acknowledged, just his drunkenness. I am sorry I voted for him when I had.

    There have been many opinions expressed here, including mine, about this matter as it affects all of us as a community, as a county and as a governed populace. This issue is just another example of how everyone needs to go deeper in our lives to educate ourselves with men and women being of equal worth even in the most hidden areas of thinking, speaking and actions and being responsible for it.
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  32. TopTop #17
    DreadTori's Avatar
    DreadTori
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    I may be wrong but I'm assuming that your comment about a "tribal system" was in response to my posting about a restorative justice process. If not, my apologies. If so, you need to get educated. Restorative Justice has been practiced right here in Sonoma County since 2001, with cooperation from the courts, probation, law enforcement, and the community. Since the very beginning, it was the most successful diversion program for youths and young adults, with success rates over 90%, satisfaction rates over 92% (law enforcement was 98%!), victim satisfaction rates over 90%, recidivism rates UNDER 10%. The next closest recidivism rate for a diversion program was somewhere around 40%.

    I worked in this field for 10 years and worked on many many cases. I worked with young offenders who committed low level crimes, like shoplifting or vandalism, as well as very high level crimes, like vehicular manslaughter, and everything in between-arson, assault, burglary, cyber bullying, terrorist threats, graffiti vandalism (some with damages of thousands of dollars).

    The main organization that brought Restorative Justice to Sonoma County is Restorative Resources, founded by two Sebastopol women, Jessalyn Nash and Janet Hughes, along with a small, but committed group of supporters including Judge Arnold Rosenfield and Judge Mark Tansil. All the police organizations in Sonoma County got on board, including CHP, all city police departments and Sonoma County Sheriffs Dept. Several of the smaller city departments refer cases directly to Restorative Resources.

    The Restorative Justice process continues to be a very effective way to handle crime that serves everyone involved, gives the victim, law enforcement personnel, and the community a strong voice in how the case is handled, and reduces re-offending. IT IS NOT A FANTASY!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by danargraves: View Post
    As to punishment it would be great if this was handled in a tribal system as was suggested by a previous letter but that is just fantasy as we ( unfortunately) do not live that way today.
    Last edited by Barry; 09-01-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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  34. TopTop #18
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Thanks, Dan, for your enlightening post.

    Your words, "if we chose to commit such acts," prove that you have a true grasp of the situation at hand
    and, as far as I'm concerned, are some of the most salient and intelligent words that have been posted on this entire thread thus far.

    No, Sebastacat, doesn't feel that you are "full of B.S." In fact, quite the opposite.

    And they remind me of that life lesson which was instilled in me early on by my parents and others close to me:
    You have to take responsibility for your actions. It's just a part of life.
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  36. TopTop #19

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    But witness to what? WE don't know that yet. We will find out when the police report comes out.
    It may be damning or it may just be that someone saw him outside in his undies.
    Tom
    Last edited by Barry; 09-01-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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  37. TopTop #20
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    I think what "we will find out when the police report comes out" is what the police decide to report.....

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by tomcat: View Post
    But witness to what? WE don't know that yet. We will find out when the police report comes out.
    It may be damning or it may just be that someone saw him outside in his undies.
    Tom
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  39. TopTop #21
    dominus's Avatar
    dominus
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    The North Bay Labor Council includes 65 affiliated unions and labor groups. This is a powerful organization which is well funded and discussing whether or not they will move ahead with a recall and put it up for vote to members. Even if Efren Carrillo remains in his position, I would imagine it will be difficult for him to command the same respect from his blue collar constituents which he enjoyed prior to this incident.
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  41. TopTop #22
    bodegahead's Avatar
    bodegahead
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Restorative justice is working real well in neighborhood courts in San Francisco. They are increasing that systym there. I have experienced it and was very impressed.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by DreadTori: View Post
    I would like to see Efren go through a restorative justice process where he must face his victim, hear exactly how he impacted her and her loved ones, as well as how he impacted law enforcement personnel and the community at large.
    Last edited by Barry; 09-01-2013 at 05:37 PM.
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  43. TopTop #23
    sharingwisdom's Avatar
    sharingwisdom
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Thank you! I think this topic of restorative justice needs alot of discussion and appreciate that it's being brought forth.

    There is this incredible website about truth and reconciliation https://www.beyondintractability.org...reconciliation . Some may be familiar with what happened in S. Africa in 1995. There were a large number of activities which publically brought forth the atrocities of the apartheid era to be healed. Through reconciliation and the related processes of restorative and/or transitional justice, parties to the situation explore and overcome the pain brought on during the conflict and find ways to build trust and live cooperatively with each other. This is what we're going to need to change the paradigm of this warring world if we want to to survive into the future.

    I also think it's important to look at ourselves and what these issues bring up for us all. Are we ready to really have peace or is it rhetoric or some future that isn't possible so we bang the drum and attach ourselves to some 'party' that will give us acceptance? What's it going to take to bring real peace if we're warring inside of ourselves and with others. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speak our truths and be present for what is important to us. But Inner exploration and release from our own shadow helps clear way so we can actually hold space in our families or community to create something different rather than punishment and retribution. These outdated modes are going to need to change its grip to move into real peace.

    "Even though reconciliation mostly involves people talking to each other, it is not easy to achieve. Rather it is among the most difficult things people are ever called on to do emotionally. Victims have to forgive oppressors. The perpetrators of crimes against humanity have to admit their guilt and, with it, their arrogance." It's a process, but it needs to start now and in every situation.

    And as a side note, forgiveness doesn't mean to forget what happened, but a release of being attached to whether another ever becomes accountable or admits what occurred. That person isn't the center of our peace. We are. The experience of true Forgiveness is an actual physical, emotional (and for me, spiritual) experience of bringing our own displaced energy and power back to ourselves that is running into another. We stop blaming, move out of the Drama Triangle (victim/rescuer/ persecutor/perp) and stop waiting for the other to wake up and get it. We take action in the present w/o carrying the other person with us. It's freeing beyond words. And a bigger picture is revealed in how that person or situation served us in a positive way in our growth, what we learned in the adversity. We can release this and it allows us to feel peace of mind...and quite possibly, an eventual peace in the world.

    This article might have been mentioned before but it's worthy of reprint. https://visionthought.wordpress.com/...rican-culture/
    In the Babemba tribe of South Africa, when a person acts irresponsibly or unjustly, he is placed in the center of the village, alone and unfettered. All work ceases, and every man, woman, and child in the village gathers in a large circle around the accused individual.Then each person in the tribe speaks to the accused, one at a time, each recalling the good things the person in the center of the circle has done in his lifetime. Every incident, every experience that can be recalled with any detail and accuracy, is recounted. All his positive attributes, good deeds, strengths, and kindnesses are recited carefully and at length. This tribal ceremony often lasts for several days. At the end, the tribal circle is broken, a joyous celebration takes place, and the person is symbolically and literally welcomed back into the tribe.”

    There are many cultures that use forgiveness as conflict resolution and to bring about justice. Whether Efron is stays on or is found guilty, we don't need to live in a prison cell of our minds in order for justice to occur and to feel peace in our lives.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by bodegahead: View Post
    Restorative justice is working real well in neighborhood courts in San Francisco. They are increasing that systym there. I have experienced it and was very impressed.
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  45. TopTop #24
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    A beautiful concept, sharingwisdon, and an ideal to be taken seriously ...

    I do wonder though, about the real possibility of this occurring. So often, aggressors are aggressive because of some inability to communicate about their pain ... not because of any fault in their character, but perhaps because of abuse in their own background which silences them and causes them to be distrusting and combative ... how can the community reach out to these people when they often hide this inner conflict?

    Also, a lot of abuse in our world is ongoing and it's very difficult to forgive an oppressor for a situation which hasn't ended yet ... healing just isn't possible in the face of an attack ... when one is attacked the self-protection mechanism kicks in and defense and survival become the only reality ... how do we end these conflicts so that discussion and healing can actually take place?

    Relatively small offenses, as in Efren's case, could definitely be forgiven, in my opinion ... but what about larger issues where family members are actually murdered? ... I know a local woman who claims that her child was murdered because of her political activism ... I don't know if this is true, but if it is, what possible resolution can she have? ... in cases like these, forgiveness is a tall order ...

    Just my two cents worth ...

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom: View Post
    Thank you! I think this topic of restorative justice needs alot of discussion and appreciate that it's being brought forth. ...
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  47. TopTop #25
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    And therein lies the problem...

    Many of us -- including me -- do NOT consider this to be a "relatively small offense."

    And I'd wager to bet that the victim in all this -- the woman who was so terrorized by Efren's actions that she
    felt compelled to call 9-1-1 twice to enlist police help -- is another.

    And I will continue to speak out on behalf of the real victim in this case until true justice prevails, and I urge others to do so as well.

    So far, the relative lack of acknowledgement for what she has gone through and is still having to endure as a result of Efren's conduct is appalling to me and many others with whom I have spoken personally.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Relatively small offenses, as in Efren's case, could definitely be forgiven, in my opinion ... but what about larger issues where family members are actually murdered? ... I know a local woman who claims that her child was murdered because of her political activism ... I don't know if this is true, but if it is, what possible resolution can she have? ... in cases like these, forgiveness is a tall order ...
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  49. TopTop #26
    jbox's Avatar
    jbox
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat: View Post
    And therein lies the problem...

    Many of us -- including me -- do NOT consider this to be a "relatively small offense."

    And I'd wager to bet that the victim in all this -- the woman who was so terrorized by Efren's actions that she
    felt compelled to call 9-1-1 twice to enlist police help -- is another.

    And I will continue to speak out on behalf of the real victim in this case until true justice prevails, and I urge others to do so as well.

    So far, the relative lack of acknowledgement for what she has gone through and is still having to endure as a result of Efren's conduct is appalling to me and many others with whom I have spoken personally.
    Once again, Sebastacat, you are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. All we know is the woman called 911 twice, the second time to say the person knocked on her door and identified himself as a neighbor and left. Does that sound like she was terrorized? Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not heard from her or from the police. Why must you continue to assume Efren was up to something dark and evil and nefarious when you JUST DON'T KNOW? All the so called Efren defenders are saying is let's wait until the facts come out before making up our minds about this incident. Is that too much to ask for the so called "progressives" round here?
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  51. TopTop #27
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    The facts that you have listed here are plenty for me to "jump" to a conclusion; if it had been my window, he might have been shot (yeah, I'm a gun-totin' Buddhist). I would not have had to be "terrorized" to shoot him, either.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by jbox: View Post
    Once again, Sebastacat, you are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. All we know is the woman called 911 twice, the second time to say the person knocked on her door and identified himself as a neighbor and left. Does that sound like she was terrorized? Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not heard from her or from the police. Why must you continue to assume Efren was up to something dark and evil and nefarious when you JUST DON'T KNOW? All the so called Efren defenders are saying is let's wait until the facts come out before making up our minds about this incident. Is that too much to ask for the so called "progressives" round here?
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  53. TopTop #28
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    jbox:

    No, I am not jumping to conclusions.

    Let us not forget that there have been no corrections, changes, deletions, additions, clarifications or anything of the like to any of the facts which have been reported by any news publication thus far.

    I do not dispute the fact that E.C. has a right to a defense. But I take exception to your insinuation that the victim's second 9-1-1 call was possibly made to revoke the first call.

    Let us also not forget that according to at least one news account, the sexual-assault unit was called in by the responding officers. That, to me, attests to the seriousness of this matter.

    Jbox, I've no desire to argue with you, and there's no need for you to get so wound up at me that you feel that you must use capital letters to get your point across. You and others have your opinions about this matter; I and others have mine.

    And I will continue to beseech others to demand the truth in this matter - even if no trial is ever had.

    But above all else, I will continue to hold good thoughts and pray for the person whom I feel has been impacted most adversely in this matter - the victim.

    And nothing you or anyone else will ever write or say is going to change that.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by jbox: View Post
    Once again, Sebastacat, you are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. All we know is the woman called 911 twice, the second time to say the person knocked on her door and identified himself as a neighbor and left. Does that sound like she was terrorized? Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not heard from her or from the police. Why must you continue to assume Efren was up to something dark and evil and nefarious when you JUST DON'T KNOW? All the so called Efren defenders are saying is let's wait until the facts come out before making up our minds about this incident. Is that too much to ask for the so called "progressives" round here?
    Last edited by sebastacat; 09-03-2013 at 06:43 PM. Reason: misdirection
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  55. TopTop #29
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    Your comment is misdirected ... I think that you intended to address jbox with this comment ...

    In my post I went on to discuss ongoing violence and murder ... compared to these crimes, Efren's crime was minor ... he ripped a screen, scared a woman, and then went to her door to introduce himself ... compared to ongoing violence against someone and murder, this is indeed a relatively small offense ....

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat: View Post
    Arthunter:

    No, I am not jumping to conclusions....
    Last edited by Barry; 09-04-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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  57. TopTop #30
    sebastacat's Avatar
    sebastacat
     

    Re: Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

    You are indeed correct, arthunter.....

    I apologize for the misdirection. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Which just goes to show: Sebastacat isn't PURfect!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by arthunter: View Post
    Your comment is misdirected ... I think that you intended to address jbox with this comment ...
    Last edited by Barry; 09-04-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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